00:00:00,320 S1: All right. So I'm going to open the regular meeting of the Planning Board of the town of Wenham for Wednesday, August 12th, 2026 is 7 p.m.. Action 701 just by hair. Uh, we are in live at one of town Hall. We are also on zoom and we have every member of the board here. 00:00:24,280 S1: Uh, the zoom, the meeting not only is being recorded, but minutes are being taken and they are available through the town website and call the planning department. Um, first item on the agenda for tonight is this continued public hearing, which we on the petition of select energy for the project at an email, which we received. A formal request. Request to continue its in the packet, so we will continue the public hearing until September 9th, 2026. 00:01:08,600 S1: What I did want to just inform the board. Oh yes, that was last night. The select the select board voted to start that decommissioning bond at year 20. We'll have more information on that for you when this hearing before this hearing takes gets before it takes place again, um, in September. 00:01:27,800 S2: So do we have to reopen the continued hearing and then vote to continue? 00:01:31,440 S1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we we opened it. 00:01:35,680 S2: All right. I move that we continue the public hearing until September 9th. Second. 00:01:40,360 S1: All in favor? We this is a. 00:01:44,920 S1: Unanimous On September 9th. Um, they had not gotten anything back from National Guard yet. Is that what the issue was? Right. 00:01:57,750 S1: And then there's some administrative items. Um, update on the subdivision regulation project. I had some questions because when I asked for the, you know, the most recent version with Robin's edits and it it's I don't think anything's happened since June with that. Is that correct? So staff hasn't been working on it or the consultant we were after the consultant, the consultants pretty much done. I did send it to them and she said that she would look at Robin's comments, but I haven't heard anything back. So technically we have finished paying them. They did what they were supposed to do. The document is now in your hands that for you to decide how you want to clean it up and what the final product will be, and then make a decision on when to hold the hearings. Well, Robin, Robin and Emily have made a number of comments in the margins and some suggested edits. Um, some of the comments direct someone, whether it's the consultant or staff, to do things like compare the, uh, definitions of various terms with the zoning bylaw definitions and, you know, reflect the statute in certain ways. It's not clear to me. Art is the is is the staff. If your view that the staff should take each of those in turn, or is that something the staff is going to take on? I can do that. I can, I can take that on if that's the one. If you're comfortable with essentially what you've seen so far, if you haven't. Is there anything on there that you as a board feel? Well, I've gotten through section three in detail I haven't gone further than that. Um, it seems to me like all the changes that Robin and Emily are making in order to be consistent with the statute and the authority that we have, are appropriate to accept. Um, there are a couple places where they are. Sorry. There are a couple of places where they ask questions that I think I'm not. I think some further analysis by the staff would be helpful to us in making decisions about those questions. Okay. Um, and there's also a couple of places where they make sort of general comments about, you know, I don't think I would do it this way, but they're not offering any language change. So I wonder if we can ask them for those. And then Dan, you had some. 00:04:30,350 S2: I was just going to say I looked at some of those comments and came nature, those comments from Robin. But I think it'd be helpful if we could have Robin here, maybe for a session so we could. 00:04:42,980 S1: That's right. 00:04:43,580 S2: We could have some back and forth. 00:04:45,460 S1: And and before and before that, ask her to go back and where she's posing a question. Maybe offer some thoughts about language changes because she's good about that. And the places where the statute is, you know, directing what has to be said. Okay, why don't I do that? I can have her come in to the next meeting. Prior to that, I'll go through all of her comments and changes and see if there are questions that she has in there that I can answer, um, and see where she needs further information. Yeah. Well, she she points out where she needs more information in a couple of places. She wants that. Our engineering consultant. Yeah. To take a look at things that confirm those accurate. And, um. 00:05:44,340 S1: I do also just make some general comments which I'm not sure how to fix the issue. She's identified in a couple of places. 00:05:50,900 S2: So where did this come from? Did you? I just know you did this okay. So I thought. 00:05:56,740 S1: Oh, is it AI? 00:05:58,060 S2: Yeah. I just put. 00:05:59,060 S3: The two documents in because I wanted a red line version. Yeah, just to see. 00:06:03,100 S1: Right. So the two put in one was the original draft. The first draft, and then. 00:06:08,940 S2: Yeah, I guess. 00:06:10,580 S3: One question I had. This is more general about how we deal with KP law, I guess. But is there a reason they don't really provide us with a lot of determinants of answers? Like I feel like we get a I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. So like we get a lot of stuff back to them. It seems to generate more work for us when they could just at least say, do it this way and we can say yes or no. Like, I felt like that. 00:06:31,780 S1: That's exactly like, okay. 00:06:33,420 S3: But there's they could do that. It's not like a legal reason. 00:06:36,900 S1: They don't know. I mean, they've offered some red line changes and then and then they've also said, you know, just in some places it's pretty clear what they think. Right. And then in other places they're just asked. It's sort of almost open ended questions. I don't feel like I have the ability to answer them. I think asking for some advice about language would be the next best stuff. Okay. And I don't know what they were thinking originally when they made the comments. So I'll discuss it with Broughton. I'll go over each of her comments, and then I'll have her come in, um, to the next meeting and we can go over them all. Hopefully there won't be as many after we go. We agree. And that would be the September 9th. Okay. Is there anything else on the September 9th meeting that other than this continued public hearing that. Yeah, the continued public hearing said to be in the hearing room. Um, we'll probably continue to talk about potential zoning changes. There is some that have to be adopted at this next town meeting based on the changes to 40 acres. I don't know if you I, I sent you a little bit on that. Yeah. So what? We talked to Steve today. Uh, katana. Because we started to go over these and look at our own bylaws. And what do we need to change? And then we just decided we're going to send it to law and have them actually make those changes, because these are statutory changes. These are things that we can discuss or, you know, make decisions on. These are things that they're facing. This is what you now have to change in your zoning vote. And I think most of you are you aware of what those are? The, um. 00:08:28,370 S2: I, I read through your. 00:08:30,730 S1: Notice. Notification required. I didn't know that. What changes to 48. So maybe you could just give us a little background about Yeah. This happened. I don't know if other people feel like they're in the same boat, but I'm like, oh, there's been changes to 48. Let me pull it up. Um, in the, um, the state's budget, the 2027 budget. Um, give me one second just fine. 00:08:52,810 S2: This it basically made it easier for developers. 00:08:56,450 S1: Yes, they're making it easier. Is it? Is it in service of, like, affordability or is just to create one? It's another one of their housing. 00:09:07,450 S2: Yeah. 00:09:08,090 S1: It's not. If it is, it's housing a lot easier. 00:09:11,730 S2: Uh, part of this is also, I think, to have an effect on zoning litigation. Um, so, for example, it I think it's becoming easier to, to grant and defend variances under the new changes. Yeah. 00:09:26,090 S1: Like if yes, that's one of the things that we have to change some of our language. There's no longer. It's not necessarily based on shape, uh, soil topography. They're, um. They're kind of taking that out of the picture. So there's other reasons that the Zeba can issue variances. The other one that's a little bit kind of. I guess a big deal for us is the Zeba currently in Wenham cannot issue use variances for under any circumstances. Right. So that with the filming. Yeah. So now they'll be able to issue a variance if it leads to housing. From what I understand. Currently in Wenham we have the two districts, we have the residential district and we have the business district. In business districts you can do single family housing. Um, but other types of housing are not allowed in the business district. So from what I'm seeing, that seems. 00:10:27,530 S2: Backwards. 00:10:28,130 S1: Yes. Yeah. I know 100% single family housing is allowed every month, right? Um, the CBA could not issue a variance to allow housing as a use in the business district currently under our current bylaws. If someone wanted to do a different type of housing in the business district, they would be able to issue that use variance. Now they don't have to, but they would have the authority to do that. That's the only way I can see how this use variance thing applies to us. 00:11:05,440 S2: Well, um, so much of our district, it's 99% residential, right? Single family residence. So yeah, that's not really an issue for us. 00:11:14,880 S1: It's not going to be. But we just. 00:11:17,640 S2: Where do we allow. I should know this, but more than single family housing. So if we're allowing multifamily or cluster it's all special permit. 00:11:28,280 S1: Under our table of use. 00:11:33,040 S1: Certain types of housing can be issued by special permit, like flexible development. 00:11:38,560 S2: Yeah. 00:11:38,960 S1: Um, certain townhouses, it it I think it says multifamily housing is a no. In both districts. So they could technically issue variances for that use variances. That's what it could be under this. 00:11:56,760 S2: Or they just do condominium. Yeah. And other than that it's um. 00:12:03,560 S1: Three a. 00:12:05,880 S2: Of three. Right. What. I don't want to jump ahead. 00:12:11,840 S1: Um, the other thing in here is how, um, the butters are notified. They're saying we can now notify a butters by email. Um, but that means getting emailing email addresses for all of the all of the residents in town. I know how easy that's going to be. Um. 00:12:33,760 S4: It says you can. It doesn't say you have to do that exclusively. Right. So it doesn't mean that you would stop sending. Yes. Some hard copy of something. 00:12:42,640 S1: Yeah. And we don't have to send certified, ma'am. If we can send it by email. 00:12:48,000 S4: Right. 00:12:49,040 S1: Suppose, um, this one is the changes to nonconformity. So if someone wants to expand a non-conforming structure, maybe I think you might have come up against this a little bit. If you are expanding it in, your expansion is within the setbacks and conforms to current zoning. You don't need to get special permit or any authorization from the field. We can just do it by bike, right? What's with your building? That's that's how I read this. Um, so. 00:13:34,430 S1: So that's that one. 00:13:39,270 S3: So if you got a prior variance or if you never got anything. 00:13:44,750 S1: You've never gotten a. 00:13:45,590 S2: Variance. So you just. 00:13:46,790 S3: Broke. 00:13:47,150 S2: The law. No no no no. 00:13:49,670 S4: You know it's. 00:13:50,390 S1: Pre the pre-existing nonconforming. 00:13:52,390 S2: Prior nonconforming prior to. 00:13:53,790 S1: The prior. 00:13:54,230 S2: Nine. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 00:13:56,270 S3: It's our house. 00:13:57,230 S2: Yeah. 00:13:57,790 S1: Like your old houses that are too close to the lot lines or something. Now, if you wanted to expand those, you'll have to go to the CPA. 00:14:10,870 S1: And this will say that we don't. We really can't require a special permit for those expansions. 00:14:21,510 S2: If it's for housing. 00:14:23,430 S1: For housing? 00:14:24,110 S4: Yeah. Yeah. All of this is for housing. Yeah. 00:14:27,750 S1: Um, this other one is about the zoning freeze. So I think what this means. So somebody applies for something, right. And under a current zoning, if we change our zoning before that project was completed. 00:14:45,710 S2: Yeah. If they if they get a permit freeze, they think it's a two year if they're unaffected by changes and then they're pushing it back to the application. Yeah. 00:14:55,630 S1: Yep. And it's from one year to two years. 00:14:57,950 S2: Yeah. 00:14:59,430 S4: And that's the two years. It's before they construct. Right. If they haven't constructed after that period, then it goes away. The permit. 00:15:09,950 S2: You mean if the permit expires, it expires. If it's expired, then that's different. 00:15:15,230 S4: Yeah, but that's that two year period is what they're talking. 00:15:17,630 S2: They're expanding the period. Yeah, yeah. 00:15:21,630 S1: Um, the other one, I don't know. You might be able to complain about it, but the lot merger, zoning protection. Um, it adds an anti merger protection for undeveloped lots of certain size. 00:15:32,750 S2: Yeah. So. So if you have two lots side by side and common ownership, they'll be in a lot of cases deemed to merge into one. Yeah. So that you can't. What they're doing is keeping that separate so you can develop both lots. 00:15:52,630 S1: And then this is the easing of the variance standards instead of it. 00:15:58,830 S4: It's the key. 00:16:00,230 S1: Yeah. This is Katie's. Instead of it being specifically, um, the shape of the new standard is whether strict enforcement would result in practical difficulty. 00:16:12,830 S4: What does that mean? 00:16:14,470 S1: So this is up to the difficulty. 00:16:16,830 S4: We have a legal meaning. 00:16:18,110 S2: Uh, they just dropped substantial hardship. Yeah. 00:16:22,030 S1: So this is for the CPA. 00:16:24,430 S3: Life is hard. 00:16:25,230 S2: Everything is practical. 00:16:27,380 S4: Yeah, right. What is the. 00:16:29,260 S2: Practice? 00:16:29,700 S4: So what isn't a practical difficulty? 00:16:32,180 S2: Um. 00:16:35,260 S2: Let me put it this way. If you're in a butter and somebody's got a variance, right, it's usually very. Under the previous standard, it was very hard to meet the standard for a variance. Right. So if you're challenging that odds are you're going to defeat the variance. Mhm. Um which led to a lot of um litigation about standing whether the, the plaintiff had standing to challenge. Um, but this seems to be making it much easier to depend on the variance. Yeah. 00:17:08,300 S4: Yeah. 00:17:08,660 S1: Yes. I think it. 00:17:09,940 S4: Gets and easier to keep. Mhm. But so, so that new standard is brand new. There's no there's. 00:17:20,060 S4: There's nothing already in the law that explains what this practical difficulty means. 00:17:28,580 S2: I don't think so. I mean, I haven't, I haven't like, run a West Los or anything, but no, I don't I don't think so. I mean yeah okay. Most of the case is going to be about substantial hardship. 00:17:38,300 S4: Hardship, right. Yes. 00:17:41,100 S2: The ADUs factor into this at all. 00:17:44,580 S1: No, not these new changes. 00:17:46,580 S4: Because you can already do that. Yeah. Right. 00:17:51,340 S2: Well, kind of I mean, maybe I'm in prior nonconformity if you're expanding. I mean, you're right. 00:17:59,860 You'd be putting ideas and stuff, right? S1: You can put ADUs on non-conforming. 00:18:02,100 S4: But you could do that anyway, right? Yeah. 00:18:05,980 S1: Um, this other one is the maximum period for variance duration extension. So, um, I think it was a year that it's valid. And then it was just like now gone up to two. 00:18:19,100 S4: Like the. 00:18:19,500 S1: Same thing as for the permit. Yeah. 00:18:25,580 S1: Um, and that's it. So again, what we've done is sent this kind of sent it back to Robin and said, just let us know how we'll change those when we buy it. Um, so is she going to come back with a package of changes? Is that the plan? Yeah. And then you will have to. And did she say when that would be? She has not responded to her email that. 00:18:45,260 S2: But you said there's another bill pending that hasn't passed yet. The economic. 00:18:50,020 S1: Yeah. The economic bill has a lot of not a lot, but it has some more substantial changes to it. That is not. It's I think it's stalled right now. It's it's not moving forward very quickly. I don't think they can come to a consensus on what should happen with that bill. That's the one that I think they're saying. All all residential districts have to allow at least two units per, per lot. So everybody can now build a duplex in their property. The towns won't be able to say you can only go for meals on a lot. That's one of the big ones that I think would impact Walmart, but we don't know whether that's going to happen. 00:19:36,090 S1: But there are a few others in there. But again, that bill has not passed and we don't know when that happened. And I think there'll be certainly a grace period and. 00:19:45,690 S2: Not. 00:19:46,010 S3: All occasions for utilities and everything. Yeah. And you're just doubling. 00:19:51,410 S2: Yeah. I mean. 00:19:52,210 S1: You already. 00:19:52,890 S3: Have. 00:19:53,290 S1: So you're already. 00:19:54,850 S2: Effectively allowing. 00:19:55,890 S1: That with an Adu. 00:19:57,170 S2: Right? That's true. 00:20:01,050 S1: Um but again. 00:20:06,170 S1: So that's, that's these and these will come back to you once Robin tells us what we have to do, how to change the bylaw that will come back to you to take on to town meeting. So we'll have to have the public hearing for that sometime in January. Um, so we need to be working through these in the fall. Yeah. And I don't feel that this is going to be a heavy lift for you. This is town council telling us this is how you have to amend your bylaw. These are things that aren't okay. 00:20:38,090 S3: It's up to how you want to. 00:20:39,170 S2: Do it. 00:20:39,890 S1: Subject to how you want to do it. I guess I feel like these are things that aren't really negotiable. They change the language of natural laws and negotiable either. But yeah, if if you want to negotiate it with 30. Absolutely. We're not waiting for anything like the state to come out with regulations about anything. Not on this one. Yeah. You know. 00:21:02,890 S1: Um, so, yeah. So again, we've sent it off to town council. I'll keep you posted on that. Um, what happens with it? Great. Yeah. Good. Then you have on here update on Penguin Hall. Do you have an update? Other than they they failed right there. bankruptcy. They dismiss the bankruptcy. I thought, Dan, you might have had a little more insight. And I know in your industry. 00:21:28,130 S2: I don't have a ton more than what's out in the news. Had a pretty good article about it. Basically. Judge Panos dismissed the case. I think they failed to carry necessary insurance. Right? Yeah. So the bankruptcy based on. 00:21:42,450 S1: Where it was after the deadline or something. 00:21:44,970 S2: It was. Yeah. It doesn't really matter. They don't have it. There's no bankruptcy protection now. So yeah, I, I heard I think it's in the article that there's an auction sale early September. Right. 00:21:55,250 S1: Yeah. September 2nd. It's scheduled for auction. And do you know anything about who's lining up? We know cabin cabin in Forbes is still interested. They are, but they're not committing to us saying that they're definitely going to bid on it. We don't know. They kind of went went quiet after all this happened. So it's up in the air as to what's going to happen over there. So, so darn I have. I do have a question if the the bank auctions the property off and some of the numbers that they're saying seem low as to what the bank is owed. So that's what the bank will go for. 00:22:46,200 But what happens to the other creditors if there's if there's no bankruptcy and it's just an auctioned property or the owners left responsible for all of the other? S2: I mean, the creditors still have claims. It's just a question of whether they can collect. 00:22:50,960 S1: But it goes. 00:22:51,640 S2: To. 00:22:53,120 And against what? S1: Yeah, I guess what. Okay. 00:22:55,080 S2: Yeah. 00:22:56,680 S3: Um. 00:22:57,720 S1: Because I know, like, the town is owed taxes and people said salaries, and that's a lot of money. 00:23:06,640 S3: Well, I mean, there's super there's super priorities and liens on there. So I think that probably stands in a town we may stand ahead of a secured creditor So they would get paid first at auction, and then it would be the already windfall waterfall of the quota of the weans. Uh, is my guess. But like, I don't think wage claims. 00:23:32,120 S2: They're out of luck. 00:23:33,000 S3: I don't think that those. Well, they're not out of. 00:23:35,760 S2: Well, I think they are. 00:23:36,520 S3: You're not out of luck on the property, but, you know, somebody's going to get that buffalo statue. And, I mean, it's going to be it's not going to be the orderly process that the bankruptcy statute provides. It's going to be a. 00:23:49,720 S1: Kind of. 00:23:50,000 S3: A free for all, a free for all. 00:23:51,640 S1: And it probably because it's being auctioned, it won't be as much money as if they got it. They think. 00:24:03,320 So that's why I'm thinking they're like last in line aren't they? S2: Who's that? 00:24:04,040 S1: The employees who sit. This is probably not a conversation for the public. 00:24:09,160 S3: I don't I don't think that there's no line anymore. It's. 00:24:13,960 S1: Yeah. Okay. 00:24:14,840 S3: It's no longer subject to the priorities of the bank. 00:24:17,760 S1: Think about that at all. 00:24:19,360 S3: Anyone who can get to anything gets it. Except with respect to the property, because that has a priority of sort of fighting the weeds. And yeah, I mean, there may be like UCC one filings on it. There may be other types of recordings against that property. But I think at the end of the day, whatever the foreclosure is going to be is probably not going to be enough. It's going to it's going to satisfy the the governmental means. The IRS is going to get paid if there's anything there. And then it's going to be, uh. 00:24:54,320 S1: The. 00:24:55,560 S3: Well, the security, the top lender, the mortgage lender, and that's going to be it falling for that. 00:25:05,840 But then there's everything else, right? S1: So if the auction takes place on the second, we'll have a good indication of what might happen going forward. If Caveat and Gold says is is the um. 00:25:15,870 S2: I'd be surprised if they weren't still interested. 00:25:18,750 S1: Yeah. I mean. 00:25:19,270 S2: Yeah. 00:25:20,070 S1: I might actually be more attractive. It's cheaper. 00:25:23,550 S2: Yeah. 00:25:25,430 S1: Yeah, I'm pretty sure they add on, but that's all I know. 00:25:29,790 S3: Only problem is that, like, foreclosures can be tapped in ways that any bankruptcies can be. I think there's more risk there than the bond aspect that's just either here or there. And hopefully it's just. 00:25:45,470 S1: Not. 00:25:45,710 S2: Our problem. 00:25:46,510 S1: Well. 00:25:47,230 S3: It's not until there is. Well, and then. 00:25:49,510 S1: There's we see tighter than we don't see anything for a while. 00:25:53,230 S2: Right. But it's there's nothing for us to do that comes before us. So. 00:25:59,950 S1: Right. No. Exactly. There's nothing like your concern. Just that, um, there is something else I wanted to talk about with potential zoning changes. At last night's selectboard meeting, Kate did a presentation on the iron rail property. So you I think in one day we're in the iron rail working group. And you remember what they finally kind of came up with. So she presented that to the select board last night. She sort of committed us to getting a new zoning bylaw passed this time for that old district, that whole new district, which the uses that they're talking about are the DPW, a potential lease of the iron Rail building, um, for future expansion by some company to do a recreation commercial and to date, um, the possible keeping of this, um, soccer field by the town and then the. 00:26:57,990 S2: Possible keeping of the. 00:26:59,070 S1: Occupancy. Definitely. All of this is possible or or whatever potential, um, and then the potential breaking off of about 5 or 6 acres at least up, up, up in the, corner. Yeah. 00:27:15,190 S2: That housing by the cemetery for housing. 00:27:18,630 S1: Yeah. Up behind the cemetery for housing. Under the state's 40 wide provision. If any of you are familiar with that 40. Why is a starter home zoning a regulation that the state has came up with? They came up with it in 2023. Just in March this year they promulgated the actual regulations surrounding. So it gives you kind of a outline of what a town can and can't allow in those districts. The other part of it, though, is if a town adopts this and development happens, the town gets money from the state. It's not a windfall, but it is. It is money. The the it. They have to be single family homes. They have to be at least four units per acre. So instead of the 40,000 square foot zoning, we would have quarter acre zoning. Um, the houses can be no larger than 1850ft². Portion of them have to be three bedroom. Um, there has to be a 10% portability component. There's a lot of ramifications around this 40 wide, but they're looking into the possibility of it for that iron round property. Um, so there's going to be, you know, the housing, there'll be commercial, there's some recreation and municipal use as well as the some solar panels aboard. So it's a it's a lot of work that we're going to get started at in the the staff will start working on what we think the select board might want to see. 00:28:57,550 S3: Exactly. 00:28:58,870 S5: Are you talking about an overlay district? 00:29:01,030 S1: Yeah. Not. So we're trying to decide that what's going to work best. It would most likely be an overlay district. The the Iron Rail Working Group kind of is proposing that a portion of that land stays within the town's ownership. A good portion of it, but gets leased to maybe the gymnastics studio. You know, you know what I mean? Somebody who wants to run something there, maybe a cafe, some little retail shops, um, you know, maybe a possibility for some mixed use where the old iron mill building is. 00:29:34,900 S2: Was there any discussion of the solar project, like the proximity of it to what they're planning to do with their building? Okay, yeah. Because it now seems like a sort of a strange. It's just going to we're just going to drop a solar panel field in the middle of all of this. 00:29:51,020 S1: Well, the soft. 00:29:52,020 S5: Touch off to the side outside. 00:29:54,980 S2: But it's pretty close to that building. 00:29:57,540 S1: Well, it is, but they're also going to keep the DPW. And the DPW wants to expand. So they want to put a more of a DPW building almost between that old, you know, with a Buying a building as well. 00:30:10,140 S5: And I think they're talking about taking the iron out, building away. 00:30:12,940 S1: They are. 00:30:13,580 S5: Yeah. So they are. It doesn't matter where it is now. Yeah. This will all be there. 00:30:18,020 S2: Okay. 00:30:18,500 S1: But we have that parking lot. 00:30:19,860 S2: Is where's the commercial going? Yeah, we thought it was going to get. 00:30:23,500 S5: Going in the building in that sort of general area, but not specifically. Okay. 00:30:29,940 S2: So please, the dirt, not the building. 00:30:32,180 S1: Yes. 00:30:32,500 S5: Right. The direction is. 00:30:33,700 S2: The builder is. You know, no one wants that value. The dirt valley. Okay. They're not preserving any part of that building. I thought there was some preservation being discussed. 00:30:44,420 S1: That hasn't been determined. Right, because there is some discussion about it's worth whether it's the whether it's. 00:30:51,940 S2: Whether it's. 00:30:52,260 S5: Worth historic. It's hugely. 00:30:54,420 S2: Expensive. Right. That's right. Right. 00:30:57,460 S1: Yeah. I think that was definite from the beginning. Nobody wants to try to fix this thing up and spend the $6 million to renovate it, and then rent it out for 100 grand a year. ago. 00:31:09,500 S2: Two years ago, it was all right. 00:31:11,700 S1: It's probably the. 00:31:12,380 S2: One way it got better. 00:31:14,380 S1: No way. So I'll keep you updated on this. But the the 40 idea was the select board liked that idea. They like the idea of some smaller homes. It's more of affordability to them. The small affordable. Not necessarily. 00:31:33,780 S2: While we're still on this subject and it says potential zoning changes. Can I ask what's going on with three a because that's a potential zoning change. 00:31:40,780 S1: Great question. 00:31:44,580 S1: That's the answer. I don't I don't have any real answer yet. Nothing's happening. We did have that meeting with the HLC, and they just sent me an email the other day saying, oh, he this, uh, one of the, uh, the guys there said, I know we meant to get back to you. I can't believe it's August already. We were going to connect in summer. You know, so I'm weird. I'm now talking with Steve. Town council. You know, Kate, we're going to have a little meeting and say, how do we want to respond to them? When do we want to meet again with the EOC? Because we they wanted us to look into some different issues that they identified with, um, you know, Boulder Lane that that scenic access or scenic easement, the access issues up at the Walnut Arch. What do they want you to look into about that? Can the property be developed with that scenic easement? We have some conflicting information there. There's a supposedly a conservation restriction on it that says you can't put roads in, but then we have some other language somewhere else that says, yes, it's restricted for scenic views, but you can put a road in there. And I think that's what we all based everything on. 00:33:05,810 S2: Where does the. You can't put a road end come from? 00:33:09,970 S1: It comes from a conservation restriction language that the Massachusetts Department of Public Works in 1990 took out on that land. I've been doing some research to try to figure out whose idea that was, and I can't determine, but there was an easement that was recorded from the Department of, um Public Works, the states Department of the state. Yes. That had language in it that said no roadways. Nothing can be done in this. And this is this is generic to the entire any any conservation easement in the entire state or. No, no, no. This is a specific easement that for 128. Yes. 00:33:57,490 S2: Along 12801128 was put in. Right. Yeah. 00:34:01,610 S1: That's okay. And the acres was put in. But that was a very long time ago, right? And that's why we're going back. Because when 128 was put in. There was a lot of different things happening with that land. The state was taking some of it. Some of it was being preserved. So in 1990, the state Department of Public Works, which no longer exists, took out an easement on that, what they call the scenic easement. It was an agreement between the Select board at the time. I think what their idea was is the select board didn't want to see billboards or, you know, big buildings on that Wenham stretch of 128. Mhm. And the language in that document from 1990 town council found that said, there's a blurb in it that says you can't put a roadway you can't build, you can't do all of this in that particular section. 00:35:04,240 S2: Wasn't this issue raised in the letter that came from the butter? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I thought that that was addressed. Yeah. 00:35:16,080 S1: We would have to go back to the state and get permission to build that road. That's what the state requiring us to. Yeah. 00:35:24,480 S6: So own the property. Maybe they can give us permission to put the road in. 00:35:27,760 S1: That's. That's kind of my opinion. I think the state. 00:35:30,600 S2: Of Iowa shall see. 00:35:33,080 S6: The public works doesn't exist. 00:35:34,840 S1: Public? The Department of Public Works is now at the math dot. 00:35:39,520 S6: Now it's dot the. 00:35:40,600 S1: Department of Transportation. So we'd have to go back to them. 00:35:45,160 S6: Well, maybe they vo. Whatever it is, we can go to them. 00:35:52,440 S2: But there has to be a way for the lot owners to access their property. 00:35:56,760 S1: Exactly. And there is. And we've determined that everyone has the right to pass and repass over Boulder Lane. 00:36:05,320 S2: Right? 00:36:05,920 S1: Yeah. 00:36:06,240 S2: So so what's the issue now? 00:36:08,120 S1: Right. The doesn't that make the easement ultra virus or so. 00:36:13,720 S2: Hold on. When we're saying easement, you're talking scenic easement a scenic easement. Yeah. Um, doesn't doesn't get get overridden by the property. By the way, I'm thinking about these locks, though, is that most of them are outside of the scenic easement. No, it's the road. They're inland. 00:36:30,480 S1: It's the road problem. 00:36:33,000 S2: Okay. Because I don't think a road would violate the seal. 00:36:36,600 S1: But the language says no roads. 00:36:39,200 S2: Right. 00:36:40,400 S1: Yeah. 00:36:41,600 S2: Any. Any way we can. No, we don't have to put the language up, but just. 00:36:46,360 S1: Yeah. No, I, I, I do, I know I have it somewhere, but, um, I didn't put it in my. Yes. Okay. 00:36:53,040 S2: I just, I remember looking at the lots when this argument was first raised, and all the land area we're talking about is pushed inland. It's it's a way from right. 00:37:01,600 S1: 128 so it's only the road that any development area. 00:37:05,080 S2: So what are we talking about? An existing road Boulder Lane. 00:37:10,680 S1: There is an existing road, right. 00:37:14,280 S2: So then why wouldn't we just be building a subdivision road off of Boulder Road, which is going to be access for the unit? 00:37:21,480 S1: That's what we're trying to determine whether LCC will accept that as a possibility. 00:37:27,320 S2: Well I wouldn't. 00:37:29,280 Well, how else would we be? S1: What what other choice do they have? I mean, I guess what they I, I'm not sure what they're going to say. This just seems very. Yep. 00:37:39,120 S2: That's right. So there would be. Oh. I'm sorry. 00:37:43,080 S1: Do you have. 00:37:43,680 S2: Dave Dave showing a map of Boulder Lane? Yeah, right. So are they thinking that the only access to potential development is Boulder Lane? Like, Boulder Lane is going to be the only road. 00:37:56,760 S1: To that particular. 00:37:58,870 S2: Will you do that? There are some issues there around, um, topography. 00:38:05,190 S1: There is some topography and wetlands. 00:38:07,590 S2: Wetlands? 00:38:08,230 S1: Yeah. 00:38:10,150 S2: And so but it's it would be like any subdivision where you'd have to lay out subdivision roads. Yeah. 00:38:18,430 S1: And and I'm just trying. 00:38:21,830 S2: Yeah. We're not we're not trying to blame the messenger or just. 00:38:24,270 S1: Yeah. I'm just trying to tell you this is one of the issues. So the problem is that Boulder Lane, which already exists does is it built all the way through? Um, it's where does it stop? It's it actually runs this whole way. It is built. It does go all this way. And there's actually something out here. It's already existing within the scenic easements. Yeah. They basically telling us we have to get rid of it. 00:38:46,870 S2: Where? 00:38:47,790 S1: I don't understand. 00:38:48,670 S2: That scenic easement. Just run all the way back there. Yeah. 00:38:53,230 S1: And Boulder Lane is already within it. So just this the complaint doesn't overlay. 00:38:58,470 S2: Overlay the wetlands if you can. 00:39:10,750 S2: Yes. It's three. 00:39:11,990 S1: The point. 00:39:12,470 S2: Is. 00:39:13,110 S1: So the point is, if you wanted to build something off of Boulder Lane to access the upland dry stuff, you couldn't do it because you'd have to cross the scenic easement. Again, I I'm not sure because the dotted line is easement, right? Exactly. Yep. That's a 200 foot. 00:39:33,390 S2: Okay. But we I don't think many of the or much of the area is within that easement anyway. 00:39:41,350 S1: The old road here. That's the that's what they're saying. Can't do another road. You can. I was confused because I thought, well Boulder is already there. What's the problem? But you have to build something else with something off of it. I mean, if it's a driveway, it's like 50ft or 100ft. 00:40:03,950 S2: What's six, six. 00:40:09,150 S1: Six? I'm sorry. 00:40:10,390 S2: Oh two. Oh, no, wait. 00:40:13,750 S7: In the corner there. 00:40:15,030 S2: Well that's all that man. Yes. It's six. Oh that's just that's what's down. What's what's the land right off the great one. 00:40:26,230 S1: Over. 00:40:26,510 S2: Here. Yeah. 00:40:27,350 S1: This is the Brady property. That's this whole lot that goes like this. Right. So I mean. 00:40:33,630 S2: But the town owns three a three be right. 00:40:36,470 S1: In town owns this and this and this. And I have to go across Brady. This town owns two also. 00:40:44,470 S2: And does it own it owns three up between 6 and 2 a right of upholstery thing. 00:40:50,510 S1: Between six three. This number three. 00:40:53,070 S2: Yeah. No that's also there's two we did there two different ancestors mobs. 00:40:59,180 S1: See, we go out to Hall Street up here. Oh, through the wetland. Yeah, it's all wetland helpful. Um. 00:41:08,500 S1: So I think that's what their question. Again, suspension bridges. 00:41:15,260 S1: That'll make it. 00:41:16,140 S2: Affordable. Um, one is the the butter. 00:41:22,420 Who complained? Right? S1: Yes. This was Oak Forest Farm. They owned this land on YouTube. 00:41:28,020 S2: I remember looking at these areas, and I didn't think there was much to them at the time. So I haven't looked at them in a long time. 00:41:36,580 S1: The thread, the the gist of it seems to be you can't put another road in through that scenic easement, but there's a conflict between that and being able to access properties. So. 00:41:47,380 S2: But that doesn't strike me as what the purpose of the scenic easement is. I mean, I. 00:41:53,380 S1: Know, but. 00:41:54,860 S2: I need to look at the scenic easement. 00:41:56,340 S1: But written that way. 00:41:57,540 S2: So should one. 00:41:59,580 S8: Copy law have found that when this whole process is going on. 00:42:03,060 S1: We had them do an. 00:42:05,380 S2: Airplane back from the. 00:42:06,900 S8: Beginning of the conversation here. 00:42:16,260 S1: So bottom line, we'll be trying to schedule something with Hulk again. 00:42:22,700 S2: What about our other district? Are they good with that one? 00:42:25,860 S1: Well that one also has access issues. And Robin had talked to you about whether we could access through, um, or whether it could be accessed through the shopping center. Yeah, through the shopping center because of what their zoning is. Um. 00:42:47,100 S1: Which is it allows for mixed use, but it doesn't necessarily allow for just multifamily housing. And I think that was her argument that you can't access it this way. 00:43:01,220 S1: So and I think she had talked about that before. 00:43:04,220 S2: Did she ever address access through large land? Yeah. 00:43:07,980 S1: We we talked a little bit about that. Um, large lane is not a public way. We there's been a lot of conflicting evidence about that. Also, whether large lane is an accepted street or not. And what we've come to realize is it is it was not an accepted road for the town. This is the housing authority property which owns large lane. And so do they. They must they maintain it? Yeah. The town does not follow it or doesn't take care of it at all. 00:43:42,500 S1: So, um, we've done what we can do, right? They have our districts, and we're going to try to counsel nominally in compliance since we've given them a submission. We're in interim compliance. 00:43:57,730 S2: I feel like we've regressed several years on this issue. 00:44:03,570 S1: Good. Brian. Yeah. Well, yeah. One wants to know kind of what's coming. Um, so we have if we're through with the agenda as printed, we have the minutes, which I thought were great. Thank you very much. 00:44:25,050 S1: Um, do anybody want to take a look at them on the screen and vote on them, or should we take a motion to adopt and as amended. 00:44:42,650 S1: Throw them up? Yes. Can you get do you have anything when you looked at them? Other than that, I feel like a lot of stuff. This is, um, six 1031 I think so, yeah. 00:44:58,090 S1: Thank you as always, Scott. 00:45:08,610 S1: I didn't see anything that you didn't say. So. 00:45:17,170 S1: Anyone else? And I have a motion to accept them. If there's nobody I think anyone else. See. 00:45:26,610 S2: Um. I'll move. We accept the minutes of June 10th and July 8th as edited. Second. 00:45:38,170 S1: Marcus and Dave, are you ready to vote? 00:45:41,690 S2: Yeah. 00:45:44,410 S1: All in favor? 00:45:46,610 S2: Anderson, I ask strong a lie. 00:45:49,050 S1: Wait. Sign. 00:45:52,770 S2: Thank you. Um. 00:45:57,010 S1: Other matters. Oh, I just may not have been anticipated. 00:46:00,490 S2: What does it say? It's not really, is it? For Papa Matter? I mean, for the 40. Why? It's kind of exciting project. Uh, but we can benefit from some technical assistance on this. I'm wondering if it'll be too late. As I say, if the CPC would give some money for that project. 00:46:21,970 S1: So here's what we're finding out. The, um, the state is going to have assistance available, much like they did with MBTA. Remember, they gave us technical assistance. So useful. And we could do that if you want, but that's not available yet. So I know I gotta go plug in. 00:46:45,650 S1: What's that? Um, so yeah, if I don't think we could do CPC though funds for that? No, not for planning purposes for that. 00:46:55,840 S2: The three a consultant wanted us to put even more units on the property. 00:47:00,040 S1: We could apply for a one stop grant for funding. Um, but I think there will be technical assistance available if we want to go that route. I, I feel like, um, creating this bylaw by, by myself is as an aggressive. Well, particularly when you have all the other things that have to go for 48 things. 00:47:26,480 S1: But I'll see what we can do. Um, I'll see what we can put together. And again, the state just promulgated those regulations around us with what he's allowed. So nobody has used it before. But I'll keep you posted. Thank you, but I like the idea of some technical assistance on the table. 00:47:52,840 S1: Yeah, certainly be helpful. 00:47:58,480 S2: We on other matters? Yes. 00:48:01,520 S1: Do you have. 00:48:01,880 S2: One? Um, well, this is kind of related to the minutes because I mentioned Maple Street. I'm just trying to remember. 00:48:13,040 Did we set a timeframe for the removal of the stone? S8: You talked about doing it later in the year when the growing season is back. 00:48:17,320 S2: Up, so. Well, we didn't set it was not. 00:48:19,120 S8: A firm time around the timeline. It was after August. Based on condition. 00:48:24,680 S1: They did beef up the wall. 00:48:26,600 S2: This year. Buy it the other day. Yeah. Yeah. 00:48:30,160 S1: Looks the wall itself is looking. 00:48:33,400 S2: It looks better. 00:48:35,240 S1: The gravelly stuff? 00:48:36,800 S2: Not so much. 00:48:41,360 S1: Anything else that people. 00:48:43,600 S2: I'm like. I'm not taking the bait on that once. And then don't go to bed. No, I'm not sorry. 00:48:50,240 S1: Quickly. 00:48:50,720 S2: Let's move to adjourn until September 9th at 17. Watching the question of seven, which made it on the ballot, I think in November. 00:49:01,240 S1: What's the question? 00:49:01,960 S2: Seven that you would have a minimum lot size? Uh, you could build on a house on 5000ft². 00:49:13,880 What? S1: Is that going to be on the ballot? Yeah. 00:49:16,440 S2: So referendum. 00:49:18,640 S1: On on. 00:49:19,480 S2: It would prohibit any bar zoning ordinance from restricting single family residence in a residential zoning district, prohibit any law from requiring special permit or approval to use the land for single family residence and residential zoning district. Uh. 00:49:37,840 S2: I don't know, it just basically says 5000ft² is all we need to build a house. 00:49:43,750 S1: That doesn't jive with the subject rules. 00:49:47,310 S2: It's going to be a formal set of rules. And like, doesn't that apply to more sort of densely towns. 00:49:56,310 S1: Town, septic places? Yeah. 00:49:58,150 S2: Well, of course there's something in there that says that it says something about sewer, but it doesn't talk about. 00:50:05,470 S1: All right. Because I don't have any units that have sewerage. 00:50:10,390 S2: Yeah. 00:50:11,190 S1: I think that's what it is, David. It's in communities that have pipes, sewerage, that have public sewers, pipes. Yeah. But I don't think any towns that ain't septic would be loud. 00:50:28,230 S1: All right. 00:50:29,310 S2: All right. That motion to adjourn is still out there looking for a second. 00:50:34,270 S1: All in favor? 00:50:35,190 S8: Hi. 00:50:35,550 S2: Hi. Hi.