00:01:36,100	Okay, so the first one was practice. I should get this better. Okay. It’s now 7:01 p.m. and I’m calling the Hamilton Planning Board meeting to order the July 21st, 2026 meeting. Uh, the meeting is being recorded by H.W. Camm. And I’ll begin by taking roles.

00:01:59,770	So when I call your name, would you please indicate that you’re present? Jonathan. Poor Jonathan, poor present. Emil Dahlquist. Was present. Darcy. Dale. Darcy. Dale. Present. Matt. Ham. Matt Hamill present. Jeff. Austin. Jeff. Austin. Present. And Valerie. Peck. Valerie. Peck present. Welcome, Valerie. This is her first meeting as an official associate. I’m working this right. Thank you. Marty Crouch, present.

00:02:25,830	And perhaps, um, Bill will be joining us in a few minutes. And Beth Hart did indicate that she was unable to attend. So the first item on the agenda is the approval of minutes. Uh, uh, is there any discussion about the minutes? Did you get my email, Marni, earlier? Oh, I’m sorry, I did not.

00:02:43,900	Oh, okay. So on. Um. Uh, June 2nd, page one. Last paragraph. Second line. The word issues should be past tense. Issued June 2nd. Okay. Page one issued. I got it. Last paragraph. Second line. Uh, and then page two, first paragraph. Second line. Remove the word the. Okay. And then on June 16th, when you’re ready.

00:03:16,570	Yes. Uh, page two, uh, code versus code. Uppercase versus lowercase. They, they’re using both. And I think they need consistency. Uh, that’s in the first paragraph. Page two, number three under vote. The voted unanimously I think they meant to say the board voted unanimously and that’s it for me.

00:03:41,600	I had a number of minor corrections. I believe at one point we noted that the planning board, um, elects members, uh, with 2 or 3 seats up for election each year, not one. That’s on the June 16th. Set of minutes.

00:04:05,700	I removed a paragraph, a comma rather, from the first paragraph under item two, and I replaced since with because in the, uh, second paragraph from the bottom. These are minor and um. Where you said the board unanimously by by a roll call vote board unanimously by roll call vote voted. Here’s another error.

00:04:41,430	Voted to approve Valerie Peck to serve an associate planning Board member position and to recommend her. So I deleted her. There was a typo there. And then on the June 2nd. Minutes, I had just a few minor stylistic changes, and I can give these two, uh, mark and we can then vote to approve the minutes with the proposed edits. If that’s acceptable.

00:05:14,070	So do I have a motion? I move that we approve the minutes from June 2nd and 2026 and June 16th, 2026, with the um, corrections that were discussed. And no one else has any corrections. So do I have a second? Second? Uh, all in favor? I. I. So it’s unanimous.

00:05:42,900	Okay, the next item that we have on our agenda, um, is a is a hearing on, um, the application of Tyler and Megan Swann. Swain, uh, to disturb an existing stone wall along Asbury Street, which is a designated scenic road in order to install a driveway, curb cut at their property at 180 Asbury Street.

00:06:13,270	So do I have a representative to speak to this issue? Yes, I would like to speak with Marty. Is that would you like me to stand. Up here? Yes. Please identify yourself for the rotary. Um, I’m Megan Swaim of 180 Asbury Street. Thank you. Can I just interrupt you? Of course. One minute. Mike.

00:06:30,030	Um, I think it might be appropriate for you to read the notice of the public hearing. For the record, before we really get into the merits here. Sure. If you don’t have it handy, I do. Have right here. Okay. Scenic road hearing. The Hamilton Planning Board will hold the public hearing pursuant to Mass General Laws. Chapter 40, section 15 C, on July 21st, 2026 at 7 p.m.

00:06:49,170	at the Hamilton Room Library, 14 Union Street. The applicants, Tyler and Megan Swain, proposed to existing stone wall along Asbury Street at designated Scenic Road in order to install a second driveway curb cut serving their residential property at 180 Asbury Street.

00:07:09,900	Assessor’s map 55, lot 286, owned by the Swain Family Revocable Trust Revocable 2024 Trust and zoned R1 a, the application materials are on file with the planning department for review in person or electronically by contacting the Planning Department. Great. Thank you. Mark. Okay. Of course.

00:07:34,170	Well, thank you for considering our request to modify this portion of our existing stone wall and to add a second curb cut to improve the safety of entering and exiting our driveway. Our request is based off of one primary concern, and that is safety. As our driveway is currently configured, visibility when exiting Asbury Street is severely limited.

00:07:57,600	Drivers and pedestrians have restricted sight to ongoing traffic, making it difficult to safely determine when it’s appropriate to pull out or cross the road. The section of Asbury Street is a sharp hairpin turn. As you all are probably aware of that, it has long been recognized as a hairy location.

00:08:15,570	The traffic study presented to the town during last year’s school project documented vehicles traveling above the 30mph speed limit on this stretch and neighbors, one of which is here tonight, have lived here for decades, have shared that numerous accidents have occurred at this curb, and our own experience confirms that the current driveway configuration that we have presents a real and ongoing

00:08:32,300	safety risk. When we purchased our home in 2020, we chose to raise our family. Here. We have a two and a half year old son and a four and a half year old daughter. Because of the community’s walkability, our excellent schools. I am a public school teacher.

00:08:48,000	I worked for a small set of time at Cutler, so I have made that short walk myself across the street and accessibility to downtown. We want our children to be able to safely walk, ride their bikes, scooters and participate in community activities. And under the current conditions.

00:09:05,930	However, safely entering and exiting um, whether by foot, stroller, bicycle or car is a significant challenge. So the proposed second curve cut is a safety improvement and not purely convenience, and it would provide the sightlines needed to safely see approaching traffic from both directions before entering the roadway, significantly reducing the risk of collisions while preserving the character of our property and the scenic road.

00:09:30,830	Um, the current configuration also creates an accessibility concern under Ada, and without a second curb cup, there’s no accessible route for pedestrians using strollers, wheelchairs or other mobility devices. Crossing safely requires relying on both sight and hearing to detect approaching vehicles and judge their speed, creating unnecessary risks for families and individuals with mobility challenges, which is a big concern of mine as a mother, as

00:09:58,170	a special educator and a member of this community, we value the existing stone wall. That was beautifully constructed by the former owner of our property, um, as it contributes to both our property and the scenic road that Asbury Street is.

00:10:19,900	Our proposal is limited to the minimum modification necessary to improve the safety while preserving the walls, appearance and the roadways character. We are also committed to working collaboratively with the town and the Planning Board to minimize any environmental impacts, including responsible stormwater management and etc..

00:10:44,670	Um, so we respectfully ask that the board, um, consider our request to this modest change to address a documented safety concern, to improve accessibility, which will help ensure that our family, visitors and others using Asbury Street, can cross more safely. Are there any other members who wish to speak to this application? Any members? I have a couple of questions. Go ahead. Um, so the I totally understand safety is a primary concern.

00:11:13,430	And is this a proposal? Uh, designed to prevent having to back out? Is that the or is the proposal to change the sightlines when you come out front? Was that the curb cut? Both because if you back out and even if you come out forward facing, you have a very I wish there was um, I actually

00:11:29,930	have a photo on my phone. If you’re looking from the end of our driveway out to traffic on coming from the right from one A, you have seconds to see before that traffic comes out. So it is addressing coming out forward. Progress.

00:11:49,030	So is it the trees that create the sightline issue or the the a few feet further around the bend. It’s the curb. It’s the actual curve across the street. Yeah. Okay. So you’re not planning on altering the driveway configuration at all. The current one is going to be staying exactly as it is. Um, there would be no additional curb cut to the current driveway that’s in place.

00:12:09,370	Right? We would start about, uh, maybe I’m using a rough gate here about 20ft in from the actual road, and then it starts when I. Say drive line, you’re going to have a looping that goes around the house on the. Back, on up the farmer sports. Right on the front of the in front of the porch.

00:12:28,530	In front. Yes. So. Have that. Semi-circle. Semicircle right in front of. Okay. And the stone wall is not a historic old stone wall. You say it was put in place by the previous owners? Correct. The previous driveway, actually started exactly where the the curb cut is being.

00:12:49,500	We’re proposing to put in the driveway was previously on the left side of the house. Um, when the previous owner chose to, it was shifted to the right side in the in the stone. And then they put it fixed in the stone wall.

00:13:03,470	To put the stone wall, which, um, it’s like half of the stone wall is on our property and half of it is on that town property. Am I correct that. You intend to, uh, essentially reuse the portion of wall that will be dismantled or to the extent you can? Oh, absolutely. Yes.

00:13:23,170	Our hope would be I say our plan is to fill in where we can in that gap between where that pine tree is. Um, additionally, where we would open up, we would like to carry the stones coming inwards towards the farmer’s porch and read all the stones that way, too.

00:13:38,570	So we create basically a 90 degree l, uh, and be aesthetically pleasing, but also be able to add to the vegetation around it. So does the new. Uh, announce your name? Oh, I’m sorry, I’m Tyler Swain. I am Megan’s husband. Do you want to? Yeah.

00:14:01,530	So, um, does the new curb cut, uh, solve the sightlines in both directions or just in the right hand direction? It solves in both directions, because from that, that location of where we would be standing of the exit through the stone wall, you would be able to see both sides clearly. Currently, you can see traffic coming from Highland, right? Coming exiting our driveway. Currently the. Last from the from the Cutler school direction. To Cutler School. Right. Um, it’s the right now.

00:14:20,170	This is not a just for our family. You know, crossing back on the street. Is. Uh, we don’t cross at our driveway because it’s not safe. We cross at our neighbors driveway. Um, because you can’t see either sightline.

00:14:37,270	Yeah, I actually drove by your house on my way here, and I was surprised at how even just driving you. There’s a you don’t have a sightline. Just even driving around that corner. And, um, so I think probably what happened was the, the original driveway was in the right location.

00:14:56,570	And the second owner or the next owner decided to move it, but it sounds like you have good sightlines in that new location you’re thinking of. To exit from our home. Yes. Um. You’re not planning on doing any ADUs or anything like that, or any kind of. We enjoy our large backyard. Yes.

00:15:17,300	Well, and that’s, that’s why the the previous owner, I think, moved the location of the driveway as we have a, a private backyard. Um, I was going to say something. I also drove by the property and, and I was interested to see if there were any other stone walls on Asbury in that area. And there is one right across the street.

00:15:37,030	But it isn’t the case that there are stone walls all along Asbury Street. The the they’re not. There fences, they’re shrubbery, and there’s just plain simple front yards without any real, um, distinctive landscaping.

00:15:59,430	So I don’t think this is a circumstance where you would have, you know, 100 yards of, of stone wall lining up both sides of the roads. Just for those planning board members who might not have driven by the the House. Um. All that stone wall is a huge, uh, safety barrier for our home. Unfortunately, we’ve moved in our home in 2020.

00:16:22,370	We have seen one accident of somebody coming way too fast from Highland towards one. A flipping over onto our neighbor’s yard. And it’s those stone walls that, um, there is an element of safety. So it is, um. I can attest that that is a dangerous spot.

00:16:44,300	My son was on the fire department, and, um, I can recall at least three accidents. And since I’ve lived here, at least three. Right here if you want it. So it’s often in the winter.

00:17:01,000	Unfortunately, when the roads are slippery and and individuals are coming from the Cutler direction going towards downtown and, uh, the turn comes up quickly and it’s slippery and they end up on the, on the lawn right in front of the stone wall. Come on out of. Um, I have some comments, but I’d like to hear from the rest of the board. First. I have a few questions.

00:17:18,100	Uh, on your sketch that you drew for the you you show a very wide driveway, and it looks in the picture like it’s more like a ten 1155. So the question is, where’s the property line in relation to your paved driveway? Is it five feet off the driveway? Is it. The property line is directly on the edge of the driveway.

00:17:35,570	Currently, that’s where the existing driveway was. So you got 23.3ft to the property line to the building, right? I don’t know. Mark, can you pull up the straight on elevation and, uh, the I’m just curious. And your driveway is ten feet, right. So. So just to confirm what part of the driveway are you referencing is 23ft wide.

00:17:59,000	If you see on a drawing, it’s long. The widest part of the building is. Yep. Near Asbury, there’s a number 23.30. That’s that’s that is the footage. It’s in your property line. Doesn’t give you that. There’s no guidance. Yeah. Goodness. I’m just questioning that. The graph that you drew there is a lot wider than ten. Yeah.

00:18:19,330	I welcome you to come by. It is not 23 foot wide driveway. If you could go back to the, uh, elevation. The. Yeah, my graphic, to be honest, that was a plot plan. Your property line is. Correct.

00:18:39,100	There is, uh, that that is to be clear, that is a plot plan that was done back in 2020, 2021, when we built the garage. Um, the, uh, I drew the graphic there to give a gauge as to where we were trying to position the actual, um, curb the new existing versus the old or the new. Excuse me, the new driveway turn versus the existing driveway.

00:18:57,730	Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thanks. So perhaps. Not discussion. The next item I’m asking we’d like to ask about is the, uh. I know it’s easy when you just do a hand sketch to kind of loose, and it’s a scale. Um, I noticed it looked at the, uh, the code.

00:19:14,370	The code has a driveway. Uh, dimension in it that says a minimum of 60ft to the centerline as a radius. As a radius. That’s got to be a mistake in there. But to me, anyway, that’s 6.2.2 standards.

00:19:38,670	Item two is a centerline radius of at least 60ft, and the driveway curves. Uh, so I fully appreciate what you’re saying. All this and I, I agree with the safety issue. I’m just trying to figure out how to reconcile this. And and think is, is that the only option you have? Sure. Uh. And we’re, we’re we’re open to conversation.

00:19:59,130	I noticed that your house from your property line is set back 33.2ft from the property line. I assume that stone wall is the property line. Yeah. It is. Yeah. Correct. Okay. So if you have a 60 foot radius, just simply wouldn’t work in there. Uh, yeah. Perhaps we need to get some. I think.

00:20:19,930	I think 30ft probably is more realistic as a maximum. Um, my guess. And I haven’t. Yeah, I have a few comments here. So, um, uh, you can do a 30 foot radius, but it’s, it’s, that’s locking the wheels.

00:20:42,430	So, um, just anecdotally, I’m just going to start with I’ve been doing site design for about 40 years, and I’ve taken out probably nearly a hundred of this type of driveway because people said they didn’t work. And the reason they didn’t work is because the radius was too tight. When you put one car in the in the driveway, it’s blocked.

00:21:01,300	Then you’re backing out around a locked turning radius. You’re you’re trying to lock your wheel back out safely. And it also uses the maximum amount of paving and curb cuts for the least amount of benefit.

00:21:25,100	Um, I worked for a fellow for, uh, fidelity fellow who’s a who’s a numbers guy, and he made me calculate the the benefits using numbers of square footage of K driveway versus circular driveway. And the difference in amount of paving versus benefit was colossal. So that’s why most folks have taken these out. Um, I think you have a very large lot.

00:21:44,430	You have a pretty good opportunity, a number of good opportunities to turn around in the backyard. Um, so I think you should be able to come out forward. And now the issue is, just as you’re coming out forward, what are the sightlines? I didn’t pull into your driveway to look at the sightlines, but it looks like, you know, it’s it’s solvable depending upon where the where

00:22:00,370	the curb cut is. And maybe you might consider I don’t see where the pine trees are there. Um, you know, can you, can you just shift the curb cut to come to the right of the pine trees and have a single curb cut and avoid the, the tight radius?

00:22:15,300	It’s also going to use up a lot of your front. You have a beautiful, beautiful house of beautiful grounds. And this gives all of that frontage over to paving.

00:22:33,970	Um, you know, so it really decreases in my opinion, the curb curb cut appeal, the curb appeal of your house, which is again a very beautiful house. And so, as Amel said, I think there’s other options that you might look at here that would be actually safer, more practical, less costly and less disruptive. Um, I haven’t put enough analysis into it, but it looks to me like there’s a lot of other options other than this.

00:22:53,670	Yeah, I agree 100% with what you’re saying. I think in my experience, too, is that it’s an unworkable thing you’re trying to do there, that you’re going to regret it and it is going to occupy a huge, essentially your whole front yard, uh, as paved area just from an aesthetic.

00:23:10,300	I know there’s that safety issue, but I in the sightline is a is a dilemma. Um, but, um, but I think there is something you can do on the front yard there that doesn’t occupy the whole thing and provide you with so that you could go out of the driveway, um, going forward all the time. Uh.

00:23:29,470	Well, I guess that’s the coming forward out of the driveway. It’s still, you know, you have to be. Yeah. Somebody who’s, you know, not noticing, taking, calculation, hearing all sounds. Yeah. Um, is not going to be able to safely exit. That’s in that area.

00:23:51,930	What I, what I’m suggesting is that you might move the curb cut, but have one curb cut and forego the, the tight circular driveway. It’s the tight circular driveway that really it has so many disadvantages and very few advantages for any property. Unless you’re on a 20 acre estate. Because that’s it’s that’s the throwback. It’s a it’s a carriage carriage house.

00:24:12,370	You know, carriage design for large estates and chateaux. That’s where it came from. Came from England. I’m sorry. It doesn’t fit in postage. Stamps. Uh, if you were coming out of the driveway, it is to your left. You spend that way more. Sorry. The other way. If you’re. I’m sorry I was mentioning if you’re backing out of the driveway right there. Yeah. Right there. Yep.

00:24:27,700	Yeah. So this is this is convex. It’s like a bowl as you come out in front of the house. So that increases your ability to see in either direction as opposed to being concave like this where you can’t see what’s coming around the corner. So I mean, it’s sort of like the, the FISA laws of visibility.

00:24:51,170	You actually have pretty good sightline relative to a straight line or into a concave line. But, um. I’m looking at your front property line is 275ft. So that’s from your driveway all the way to the end of the wall. You have more than 200ft there. Now. It’s not perfect, but you really have a problem there with.

00:25:14,130	Yeah. So I’ll use an example. If I would, I would certainly ask, uh, the like the town not engineer I guess there’s or the building official but about sightlines on that way is what is acceptable, you know as a site line. Sorry, but I’m surprised that, um, traffic must be coming pretty quickly. I do it does.

00:25:36,000	Unfortunately, I went head to head with an 18 Wheeler coming at me the other day as I was backing out, and it was a little, a little, a little testy. There might be other solutions. So we appreciate. Your so. Your background and insight. Yeah.

00:25:49,370	And again, I would separate the issues of backing out from sight lines. Oh absolutely. So so you you I, I truly agree you need to solve the problem of backing out. If you back out it is unsafe. That’s terrible. That’s a terrible way to get out of any driveway. But you’re right.

00:26:03,830	It looks as though your driveway has enough flexibility for you to turn around and come forward. Yes. So that’s that’s issue one. And then issue two is what specifically are the sightlines and what are the limits to the sight lines. For example. Another thing that you could look at is I don’t know who’s thick at that is across the street.

00:26:20,900	But oftentimes when you, you know, negotiate with a neighbor and say, hey, for safety, I just did it last weekend, I have I have to prune my neighbor’s thicket in order to get out of my driveway safely.

00:26:34,570	Um, but I negotiate it and I do it, and and it makes it safe for me. Otherwise, I have the same issue. But the limit to me isn’t where my curb cut is. It’s the the thicket across the street.

00:26:51,830	So just as this is so, you can always figure out what the the limit is, and I don’t without standing there and siting it I can’t tell, but it looks as though it’s vegetation across the street. And that’s manipulable, you know, with with discussion and negotiations. So there’s another potential solution. Jonathan, when you suggested moving the curb cut, what were.

00:27:12,700	You outside of the trees, if that solves, it doesn’t look like it solves it looks like it looks like it’s the vegetation across the street that limits it. But but without analyzing it closely, it’s hard to say.

00:27:27,730	I guess the question would be is if they had to move the curb cut on the other side of the trees and potentially remove those trees, they’re going to be right back here with another scenic road issue. If that’s something that had to happen, because. It looks as though the existing curb cut, I again, without seeing more information, it looks as though the existing curb cut has adequate sightlines. If the the. The options, I don’t have to back. Out the street, and if you don’t have to back. Out.

00:27:43,200	I guess I just I’d be curious what, um, who would we speak to about understanding adequate sightlines? Well, I’m a mother of two young children. I. , DPW, DPW would be a start. DPW absolutely. Also, the police department doesn’t. They have to sign off on sidewalks? Safety officer. Yeah, they usually look at it. The police department.. Absolutely.

00:28:07,130	Absolutely. And fire safety or safety? Uh, safety department, fire and fire and police. I don’t know. You know, sometimes you see, there’ll be a mirror that you can look at to see oncoming traffic. I don’t know. That that. Would work. At one point.

00:28:24,470	Um, we’ve actually we’ve been in our home now for six years and have been kind of problem solving this situation for the past six years. Um, we one of those solutions has been we’ve put a very large mirror. It’s not currently there for the past. I think that was one of our first, um, solutions. Um, it’s still quite challenging. Well. The other.

00:28:43,770	It’s right there in. The picture. I have. To. Yeah. I have to agree with Jonathan. Your house is beautiful and and basically, at least from this schematic, you’re going to be putting concrete in the front of it.

00:28:59,630	And, and I think that to his point, you might regret that because it will lose its it will lose its context a little bit. I mean, there’ll be very few plantings that you can, uh, employ that would, um, minimize the effect of that because the distance between the stone wall and your house is just not that great.

00:29:23,500	So can I just confirm that the committee is stating that because we are a scenic road under Massachusetts statute, I forget the number. Um, that it doesn’t sound like a recommendation. Is. I’m not sure that’s exactly. It’s more from. A, I think. More from a planning.

00:29:43,770	And we need to do is, is try and think of maybe some alternative option. Um, because it looks to me like, uh, behind your garage, if you extended pavement, you might be able to turn around. So you are always coming out. Uh, you’re never backing out. We do. Um, we made sure that, um, we we always come out forward. But again, I’m just stating.

00:30:04,130	So I guess it would be following up with DPW, perhaps fire safety to understand visibility a little bit. It’s not. I don’t think. it’s., uh, that we object to what. You’re doing. Yeah. We’re just raising issues that, from our experience. Absolutely. We want you to solve the problem, create more problems. Well. You don’t want to spend the money. Yeah.

00:30:24,830	And then find out after you’ve expended that money that you really don’t like it. From an aesthetic point of view, because you have such a beautiful house, and I know you have gardens, and you’ve really put a lot of time and effort into your property. Folks have asked me to take them out, not because of aesthetics, but because they weren’t practical.

00:30:41,870	Well, right. But that they would they. Just they weren’t safe. They weren’t practical. Right. I would add one thing. And that that is we’ve, um, we’ve put in a significant amount of work in the backyard in the past five years. I personally have done it myself.

00:30:56,430	And so extending the pavement would be ripping up a about a, you know, 20 by 20 patio. I built, uh, a lot of vegetation that we planted, things like that. So I’m not saying that that’s not an option.

00:31:13,900	Um, the, the reason why we had identified the front was it’s obviously an area that our children are not playing for safety reasons and thought that that was a reasonable option. And frankly, the companies that we spoke to had recommended that as a location, as another place. Again, I’m not saying that that’s the only option. I appreciate the suggestions that you guys are offering. I’m looking at. The aerial view.

00:31:31,230	I don’t see it necessary to extend the driveway. I mean, as you pull in, you can it’s already existing there today, pulling to the left and you can back out and but you just said you always right. Yes. Correct. Have you ever, uh, just another option. Uh, I thought I was talking to your neighbor. There’s another driveway right next to you.

00:31:47,730	If you could share the first 50ft or 30ft of it, that you could then have a common driveway by eliminating the curb cut or just keeping it in place, but never using it here. Well, they’re very kind. They’re here tonight. They’re very kind. And we use we use their driveway often. They let us use the space.

00:32:08,000	Um, but I will say even exiting their driveway, it is. You have to be very thoughtful looking here. You know, again, I think it comes down to what the visibility is.

00:32:24,970	I mean, I, I don’t want to speak for our neighbors, but, um, it is a challenge crossing the street there as well. But yes, they are very kind and do let us cross there. And again, as I stated, we cannot safely cross back without somebody on the other side of the street. Not that this is, um, an issue. Our property and what we’re talking about tonight, but we do cross at two houses down.

00:32:44,300	So my children, that’s what they’re used to, to safely cross. And children have been for forever. We don’t have a stand alone bylaw for scenic roads is that. That is correct. So not and so the only real standard is. Whether the statute. Planning Board is prepared to approve this.

00:33:03,570	And, and my thinking is that I would like to approve it with an understanding that you will seriously consider the comments that have been made here today. Just rethink it. If you still wish to go forward. I don’t know that any member of the planning board would say no. We’re going to prevent you from doing that.

00:33:31,170	Um, because safety is a concern. And, and obviously a real serious concern with you. And I wouldn’t want to, um, personally stand in the way that you, uh, solving that concern. Uh, where this stone wall is, is just a kind of a one off on the street.

00:33:57,300	So it would be my suggestion that the planning board and will have to vote on this, uh, you know, allow your request with the understanding that you will consult with the appropriate town authorities about the sightlines and see if you can come up with some type of an alternative solution, recognizing what Jonathan has said, that that many people who have put these kinds of

00:34:20,970	driveways in, particularly ones that don’t really comport with the the provision of the bylaw, have been removed because people are unhappy with them in the long run. Does anyone want to address what I just said? Yeah, I can see people maybe using it as a U-turn to change directions. Yeah, they won’t if there’s a car in it.

00:34:41,700	And again, that’s. The big point, is that as soon as there’s one car in it, yeah, it’s blocked, it’s useless. And then you’re backing out and you cannot back out around a tight corner like that. And you’re actually going to need more than ten feet wide. Just given the geometry of a car or a vehicle.

00:34:56,870	Yeah, it needs to be about 15ft wide. Going to be about 15 wide at the widest point. So it’s an enormous amount of asphalt for very minimal return on investment. Yeah. Right. That’s that’s helpful to know. Thank you. I. , um. With all respect to your paving contractor, I wouldn’t rely on them for design. I appreciate that.

00:35:17,930	As you go in this driveway to the back, you bare left, and there’s a two car garage there. Three car. Garage. three car. Yeah. And there’s I mean, it looks on the plan like there’s plenty of room as you’re coming out of that garage to back this way and then head out the driveway. You know, nose first.

00:35:39,800	Correct. Okay, okay. Yeah. It’s doable, but, uh, there’s the sight lines here. Yeah. But I find out whether that that 200 plus feet is a violation of anything. I mean, because that’s a pretty good distance, actually. Can you say that again? I’m sorry. The 200 plus feet. Referring to what? The sideline. The sightline.

00:36:06,500	Thank you. Exiting out onto Asbury Street from your driveway. Yeah. Thank you. Um. And I would look at adjacent vegetation, you know, is that look at what what is the limit of the sight line? What’s causing it? There’s usually some specific element, um, and often it’s that vegetation that people just aren’t paying

00:36:25,770	attention to. It doesn’t bother them. So they’re not even thinking about it. So that’s a good point. Please. And identify yourself at the podium. Uh, and Tim Whitman. Tim Whitman, and I’m 184 SB Street. I’m the adjacent property there.

00:36:48,770	Uh, if if we can just move that picture, can we see it? I hadn’t thought of the vegetation as being the limitation there. Um. Okay. Mark, if you go back to the street view, you probably see a better view of that. Say again. I was asking Mark if he goes back to the street, do you have a better view of that site? Okay.

00:37:10,070	And again, I’m speculating. I didn’t stop and get out of the car and look at it, but usually that’s what it is. And it’s usually because people it just it’s not important to the people who have the vegetation. It doesn’t affect them. In the direction. Try the. Other direction. In the. Direction. Tons of stuff, right there.

00:37:26,030	Tight turn. Yeah. Move forward a little bit. See? That’s all overhanging vegetation with, with and and it doesn’t mean you have to take any trees down. It just means. And your sightline is it’s way down here. You know, it’s not up here. It’s not down there. It’s right here.

00:37:41,230	So if you just ask for some branches at that height, you can open it right up. Same thing. That’s exactly what happens with my property. And all I have to do is take out a couple feet, and I can see hundreds of feet further. Uh. All I simple.

00:37:52,800	I just know that I cross over that, um, 20ft for, well, 50ft further up the street. Um, going north on Asbury. And I actually have to stop and listen. I can see I go up to the there’s a fence just off to the left hand side there.

00:38:15,230	Um, and I go up to past that so I can see down Asbury Street, up North Asbury Street. Um, and I actually listen to hear if I can hear it. Yeah.

00:38:34,430	See, there there’s the I go up almost to that telephone pole, uh, and I listen to hear if I can hear, hear a car coming and because I can see all the way down to Cutler. Cutler Road. Cutler School, if I go up that far. Um, so I hadn’t thought of I hadn’t looked at the vegetation as being an issue, but I’ll take another look at it.

00:38:54,930	I think it’s also a chronic issue for speeding right in that area as well. You know. Well, and particularly since the street was widened, uh, a number of years ago, uh, and that was one of the concerns at that time. At that time was it was going to be so much wider. And therefore people are going to go faster, which has happened. Um, but anyway. Thank you. Hey.

00:39:16,270	Uh, Steve McWhirter, 18 Cunningham Drive. Um, hi, people. Um, as far as this is, there’s no vegetation issue here. The only thing you’re going to get is a pole, and you can’t move that. And as far as finding out on the site distance, things like that, go to the police chief.

00:39:38,770	They’ll have all the accident records and things like that. Um, they might even have measurements on cars that tried to stop and didn’t do it successfully. And the real thing that the police chief is going to tell you, the biggest thing that slows those cars down is narrow in the road.

00:40:01,130	So those lines, but they may have them as narrow as they can. But, uh, yeah. Check with the police chief. Thank you. I appreciate it. I think. I will entertain a motion to approve the request. Um. Marty, do we want to discuss the draft conditions of approval that, uh, the planning director. Oh, absolutely. Mentioned. Yes, yes.

00:40:39,270	So if we are to approve it, we would approve it. Subject to, um, the conditions that. , uh. Mark, um. As provided. I’ll just. Read those draft conditions. If you have any issues, let me know.

00:41:04,230	Uh, prior to the start of work, the applicant shall obtain the street opening permit from the Department of Public Works. Number two, disturbance. The existing stone wall shall be limited to only what is necessary to construct the driveway. All stones impacted by the work shall be relocated to other areas within the right of way boundary, but at least four feet from the edge of pavement and Asbury Street.

00:41:23,300	Number three, any future expansion of the driveway beyond those outlining the application materials which require advance review and approval by the planning Board. I’ll make a motion that we vote to approve the application of Megan and Tyler Swaim to disturb the stone wall at their property, subject to the, uh, conditions of approval that were just read into the record. Second.

00:41:48,100	Second. Okay, I’ll take a roll call. Vote. Jonathan. Poor Jonathan, poor I. Bill Wheaton. Abstain. And Dahlquist. Abstain. At this stage. Darcy. Dale. Darcy. Dale, I. Uh, Matt Hamill. I.

00:42:16,130	Uh, and Marty Crouch, I so you have your approval, but, um, given the two abstentions, there are serious issues that you should look at before you proceed. And one of them is to request the, uh, police department to enforce the speed limit on Asbury Street. Because I live right off Asbury Street. And I can attest to the fact that the speed limit is routinely ignored, and it’s routinely ignored by some really big trucks. Okay. Okay. Um, Somehow.

00:42:54,870	So on the matter of stonewalls, uh, not stonewalls. Excuse me, I’m gentleman, so I’m going to make all sorts of mistakes tonight. I just returned from Pakistan, so it’s a ten hour difference, so I’m not sure I know which end is up, because I don’t know what time of day. It is.

00:43:16,270	Um, but I did want to know that we do not have a scenic road by. Law. And that chapter 40, section 15, C really has no specific standards as to how we are to assess alterations to scenic roads.

00:43:44,030	And it seems to me that when we get to our discussion of implementation of the master plan and some other items that the planning board might look at, we might want to consider a scenic road bylaw. And we also may want to consider adding to the number of scenic roads that we have in town.

00:44:04,500	And so it occurred to me that some of the scenic roads that exist in town that are not now designated, um, uh, are the Miles River Road and Woodbury Street. They might be ones that could be added to our list. I believe. Woodbury Street is a scenic road. I yeah.

00:44:32,100	Is it Asbury Bridge Street, Tobacco road, Cutler, Garner, Goodhue, Highland, miles. River. Oh. Miles River road. I take that back. Moulton Street, Sagamore. Walden. Feld. Walnut. Winthrop. Not Woodbury. It used to be.. I remember when we were dealing with Gordon Conwell, that some of the people said that they wished. The bridge, bridge streets on there, too, right? Yes. I mean, the purpose of the bylaw.

00:44:56,070	There is. No body is actually scenery. It’s scenery or not, for the purpose of the state law is scenery. It’s not safety or a line of sight. That’s the domain of the DPW and the police. And and so the objective of the law is scenery.

00:45:21,430	And, you know, in given that the purview of the board should be is this a very scenic road that somehow will become scenic or lose its, you know, scenic beauty? If the, you know, petitioner does whatever the petitioner wants to do on Bridge Street, we thought that was absolutely true. But but we didn’t act the fast enough. And, um, Uh.

00:45:43,070	You know, I, I think it’s debatable here whether this removal of the wall, which I, I think is they shouldn’t do, but that’s, that’s but that’s on different grounds than scenery. I don’t think it will affect the scenery appreciably. That whole portion of Asbury.

00:46:11,130	Right before Highland is not, say, comparable to, um, other streets in terms of scenery. It’s a bit of a mixed bag. In other words, parts of it are more scenic than others, but obviously Upper Asbury, which is much more rural and character is, I think what led to the denomination of Asbury as being a scenic. Road right.

00:46:33,270	Okay. Well, good luck with your project. Maybe you’ll come up with an ideal solution that satisfies the abstaining members here. And I appreciate all your expertise as well. Thank you for providing that.

00:47:23,000	The next item on our agenda is a potential amendment of the master plan to include consideration of a dark sky bylaw and mark very thoughtfully, uh, provided us with sections of the bylaw that address lighting in town and, um, he also recommends that the town consolidate regulations governing exterior lighting into a single bylaw.

00:47:54,430	So I think it’s worth discussing whether we should amend our master plan to include consideration of a dark sky by law. And there is a committee and Jarrod and Cathy Simonds are working hard to, um, get, uh, public awareness of dark skies. And there are existing bylaws that we can look to for inspiration. So, uh, I’m throwing this open up for discussion.

00:48:32,330	Um, I first heard about the Dark Skies Initiative. It was called, um, uh, Sky glow. That’s what they called it back then in the mid 80s, when Concord, Massachusetts, the Kabat-Zinn family and Concord were, um, early, adopters of of this concept, dark skies. So, um, it’s not a new thing. No, it’s not.

00:48:56,370	It’s something that’s got some history to it. But Concord might have some dark sky bylaws that we could take a look at. They were the. Years I. I’ve told you all about the presentation that this Kelly Beatty, uh, made at the library this spring. And it is available on, um, cam or YouTube.

00:49:23,230	And it was it was great. It I mean, it was for a general audience. I mean, obviously people are expertise in lighting, you know, could have, you know, received more sophisticated information. But for the general public, it was no pun intended, illuminating.

00:49:51,900	And, um, uh, so Chelmsford, at his behest, because he’s a resident of Chelmsford and on the planning board, Chelmsford just adopted an outdoor lighting bylaw and the the there are different and why it needs to be studied is the a lighting bylaw can be a general bylaw or it can be a zoning bylaw. It can address uh, regulations that govern lighting of commercial enterprises and simply have guidelines for residential properties.

00:50:19,100	Or there can be regulations governing the entire town. So, uh, Mark, were you able to, uh, include the Chelmsford bylaw in the package? Yes. So, so. This is. Um. A part of the Chelmsford bylaw. Yeah. So, um, this is the one that Kelly Beatty and he was a senior editor at a magazine dealing with, um, uh. What was.

00:50:52,130	It called? Sky and telescope. Thank you. I mean, I knew. it was something to do. I couldn’t come up with the words, but. Yeah. Sky and telescope magazine. So immersed in this culture of dark skies and, um, so this is something that he put together.

00:51:16,930	And, of course, this is there are other, other, um, ordinances to look at. And I know Cathy and Anna are put trying to put some ideas together as well. So it isn’t that I’m advocating that we adopted Dark Skies by law this evening. I think what I’m suggesting is that we add it to the master plan as something that we should study and consider in the next year or so.

00:51:39,700	Well, two ways to deal with that. One is through regulation, the others through guidelines. And, uh. Or a combination. Or combination. And because you could, um, you could highlight what are the what are the critical things and this, this Kelly, Beatty, um, identified, you know, the major issues with glare and the trespass and so forth. And.

00:52:10,670	And I think all that’s good information and with, with some statistics on it, but but when you get to the level of, uh, fixture types and all of that to me kind of falls in a category of, of guidelines.

00:52:28,870	And I because these change all the time. And, uh, I think it would be better as maybe if we start to study it in some detail and then come up with maybe a good combination between regulations, which could be in the bylaws. Uh, certainly in town center. We want to have it, but I think you’re right.

00:52:49,630	I think there should be a town wide set of basic standards that apply everywhere. And then in specific areas that our commercial, uh, you have specific regulations that address that location and, and can satisfy those requirements. But, um.

00:53:16,100	I think, uh, I think having a, the guidelines in a separate package would be a great idea for someone to go to town hall and pick up a copy or get it online or whatever. And when considering a project, but not necessarily put it all in, um, you know, bylaw would be my first approach anyway, on that, because I think.

00:53:34,130	Maybe we could start with the guidelines and then if there was lots of support, we could move at the next level to have some regulatory permit process with, with variances. I mean, you know, there are going to be situations where, uh, for safety reasons or something, you really do need more light than you would have with the guidelines.

00:53:54,300	And so you need to have some out, some way of reviewing that, that would allow exemptions under something. But rather than start with a really strong, you know, set of regulations like that, we start off with guidelines, see what people think, and everybody’s happy with it.

00:54:14,030	We say, well, you know, maybe we’ll move to the next step and actually have a, you know, a, a bylaw with full width, which includes regulations. Violations would give it some teeth. And that’s going to be needed. You’re going to see a project that comes in. That’s just misses the boat completely. And you have to say no, that’s this is not going to be approved because right.

00:54:30,570	Bylaw XYZ. And you know, whereas I think helping people understand what the what the problem is and getting developers to look at that and then being willing to, uh, you know, if you give it a choice in terms of street lights, for example, most of them really don’t care what street light they use, but the town cares.

00:54:51,930	And, um, and there’s more than one, more than one cutoff type of light, you know? So I think our bylaw should certainly a town center have, uh. I mean, you wouldn’t couldn’t you do this by amending the.

00:55:13,830	Zoning bylaw in some way and just just sort of say all developments and, you know, in these parts of town. So that with the with this amount of activity need to be compliant with the guidelines provided in the, uh, you know, by the planning board for dark Sky. Yeah. That would be a pretty heavy stick.

00:55:32,500	Then you’d say, well, you know, we’re not going to give you your special permit or whatever it is. Uh, unless you abide by the guidelines without coming up with a whole separate bylaw.

00:55:52,270	The challenges that the got, the reason to do guidelines is because lighting is very technical and it actually requires technical expertise to do so, like a developer could afford to to pay somebody to do that. But like a homeowner would struggle with that. Yeah. Um, so and to Amy’s point, you know, these things change constantly. It’s really confusing to read the specs on them. Um, it’s very technical.

00:56:08,470	And so you just need to be careful that it’s not too onerous for, for example, for a homeowner. Well, the bylaw in Chelmsford is mandatory over a period of time. It’s not. It’s there’s a leeway. Uh. Seven years I think. Ten years. That, that, uh, businesses have to comply. So it’s mandatory. You said businesses or homeowners. Businesses, businesses. That’s different. Yeah. Homeowners are exempted.

00:56:43,130	But guidelines are provided for homeowners. So it’s not an onerous, uh, type of of bylaw. It’s not as if people have to replace their lighting fixtures. Uh, the day the, um, after the, um, bylaw is, is implemented. So there is and, and this bylaw in Chelmsford is, is I think pretty even handed.

00:57:11,830	But say in Nantucket that they’re, they’re, uh, dark sky bylaw applies to homeowners uh, island wide. So I think it’s worth it. Absolutely. Ignoring how we go about approach it. Because the bottom line here is that whatever we do, we want the town to support the effort. We don’t we don’t want to impose something on them that they find. Um. Uh.

00:57:38,470	Too restrictive. They won’t endorse it at town meeting. So if it’s a general bylaw, you have to recognize that that’s a 50% vote. Whereas if it’s a zoning bylaw, it’s a two third. Uh, vote. So I know Kathy, you are here.

00:58:01,500	Do you would you like to say something about, uh, the extent of your effort so far? Um. I’m Kathy Simons, 245 Sagamore Street, and I have been meeting with a couple of other residents in Hamilton, um, who are concerned about light pollution and, um, in preserving the rural character of the town.

00:58:33,500	Um, I think, um, that, um, light pollution is a relatively small and doable issue here in Hamilton. Uh, but it’s in the context of a very critical, large scale environmental issue. Um, it’s not just a nuisance, although a lot of us have encountered nuisance, uh, nuisance from neighbors, spotlights shining directly into our bedrooms or, uh, nuisance from glare. Uh, on on the road, um, caused by, um, street lights.

00:59:01,470	Downtown pole lights, downtown. Um, but, um, it’s it’s also the environmental issue, uh, has to do with the fact that, um, lighting electrification is only 125 years old, and the world has evolved in a cycle of light and dark and everything is synched with that cycle, including pollinators, including my migratory birds, including, uh, the seasonal,

00:59:33,330	um, uh, spring springing of leaves in the spring and dropping of leaves in the fall. Um, so I think it’s rather like discovering that we can’t dump in the ocean.

00:59:53,170	We can’t just willy nilly light up the sky, lose access to the beauty of the night sky for ourselves and future generations, but also in, um, pollinators and wildlife. In a town that is about 70% conservation land. Um, so I think this is an opportunity for Hamilton, um, to be a A. Model and a leader and protect its own very much in keeping with the long range plan that it’s preserve and protect.

01:00:23,430	Um, the rural nature of our town. Um, other towns that have done it Maynard, Rockport, Rowley, Nantucket, the state of Maine has regulations. Massachusetts regulations have passed the state legislature in both houses and are going into reconciliation, and will have to do with, um municipal expenditures.

01:00:47,470	My understanding about why a general bylaw is that, um, a zoning bylaw would not apply to municipal buildings. Is that. Correct? That may be correct. Uh. Federal buildings. I know it can’t, but. Um, I had thought municipal buildings might might not be, um, covered.

01:01:15,300	Um, and I think there are decisions to be made about who does get covered. I think. Chelmsford, in fact, covers residential but not municipal. Some towns cover municipal but not residential. Um, there are a lot of a lot of decisions to be made once you get into it. The technology piece, the technical piece.

01:01:37,630	Um, I think we’re all really leery of anything that that is too technical to be understood or easily applied. Um, the, the fundamentals of the bylaws in various towns have to do with shielding. Shielding is just, um, a no brainer. Talking to the chief of police and, uh, and, and other, um, officers in town that they’re very much in favor of shielding.

01:02:08,200	Um, even though light is very much the police officer’s friend, they too much light is also a problem. Um, and and shielding is very beneficial. So you can have a regulation that has to do with your light, has to be shielded to prevent sky glow. As Darcy said, and to also prevent glare.

01:02:32,130	And light trespass into your neighbor’s bedroom window. Um, but it also, um a the model by law from mass, dark sky, dark sky, Massachusetts. Uh, or dark sky us would also address color and intensity. Um, and of course, there are exemptions for safety and security.

01:03:01,500	Um, and you don’t have to include, um, you you can determine in, in discussions. This is a big study. Uh, what what fits Hamilton the best? Um, but, uh, uh, you can have exemptions. You can have a phase and period. You can make some of it regulatory and others recommendations.

01:03:28,330	But I think my question to you would be, if it’s only recommendations, is it going to have an impact on developers? Um, we’re seeing new buildings going up. Uh, with really poorly designed lighting, excessive lighting, lighting is becoming something of a design feature on the on the facade of buildings. Um, it’s good to have some consistency.

01:04:00,230	We’ve talked to, um, um, business owners in town who are not opposed to lights out an hour after closing time. Um, except for some safety and security lighting. Um, it seems to me that there’s a lot. As we’ve been talking with stakeholders in town, and we’ve only begun. There’s a lot of already buy in. So that’s what I would. I note with respect to Chelmsford.

01:04:24,800	I may have exaggerated it. The bylaw applies to single and two family residential dwellings and ad use and individual individually owned dwellings that are part of a condominium complex or homeowners association, but not just single family homes. Right. And those are governed by guidelines. So and not businesses. Money. Businesses are covered by regulations.

01:04:53,570	But for residents it’s part of a condominium complex that. Manners bylaw, which is fairly recent, is uh, includes municipal and schools and commercial and industrial and residential. Yeah. So so there’s a whole panoply of choices to make. And so the idea is to get started and put it on the agenda.

01:05:15,670	It’s putting it on it, making it part of the master plan so that we can move forward with it. I think that’s something that that’s really important.

01:05:40,030	And as an aside, and since we all know I was in Kyrgyzstan, uh, one of the incredible things about Kyrgyzstan is are there dark skies? But some of the development that we saw along Lake Issyk-Kul, uh, where streetlights that were I, I’m only guessing maybe 30ft tall in the shape of candelabras. Um, shooting, you know, light right up into the sky. And, I mean, when we went there, the night sky was what it must have been like when the Greeks looked up.

01:06:13,170	And there you have development. Um, so I think to Cathy’s point, it’s not just about the light that affects people. It’s the light that affects the pollinators and the other creatures that we share this planet with. So, um, I don’t know how you feel. Let’s put it on the master plan.

01:06:37,170	It’s not a done deal until we have some type of bylaw. We’ll have discussions about it down the road. And I’m sure Cathy and Anne will have a lot to say about it, but my goal here is to just put it on our radar, put it in the master plan, and we can get to work on it in the the next year or two.

01:06:56,330	Thank you. No, I think it’s a good idea. I do too. Yes. Good, good. So I’ll entertain a vote to amend the town’s master plan to include, um. Um, when you say that, what exactly do you mean? Amend the master plan? Well, right now, the master plan does not have any. Right? Um.

01:07:21,470	But I’m wondering whether you want to do that in an appendix. Start the whole list of things that are additions to. The master. Oh. Sure, we can. Do that as opposed to changing the language of the steering committee and the consultant. I’m a little hesitant to do that, but I think we can add topics, obviously.

01:07:38,000	Oh, yeah, that. Should be a dynamic. But how we do it, I think is going to. Be important. All right. So so. I would have to. So when I thought about amending the master plan, I was thinking about, um, implementing a dark sky bylaw. So we have looking ahead that section four of our master plan.

01:08:05,230	So you have. I would add it as an action item. Okay. I’m filling in the general body of the document. Oh no no no no. No no I would just. yeah okay. Add it as an action item under say 4.2.1 protect. Yeah. And probably, um, you know, we could identify by a leader partners. Yeah.

01:08:30,870	And perhaps if everybody likes this idea, then I, I can look into how we could actually add it to one of these charts and, and put, put that in the same format.

01:08:52,230	So in other words, if we like the idea, I’ll put it in the format, uh, of um protect. Well, I think that’s probably where is a logical place for it to go. And I will set it up in such a way that it will mirror the existing items. Um, and. So looking for a motion. Uh, actually, it I take that back. Okay.

01:09:11,570	I will wait until the next. It’s what I think we have is consensus, so I’ll try and put it into the context of the chart itself and have the same format, the same one, two, three. Four, five, six. Seven columns. And then we can, we can vote on. And the next meeting.

01:09:33,330	By what mechanism do we have to, uh, get that approved as part of the master plan? Um. The planning board can amend the master plan at any time. Okay. We don’t have to ask anybody permission. The master plan is a is a product of the planning board.

01:09:52,000	The other question I have. Do you want to keep the original document intact? But put it in an appendix item. And I’m curious whether anybody. Yeah, I like that idea. I almost like a wish list. Um, and then you could turn the wish list into action items, but it.

01:10:05,970	Do it only once every couple of years or something. Well, what if it was? If it was an appendix, you could just keep adding to it and you don’t have to reformat anything. I agree with Amel.

01:10:15,200	You don’t want to go down a rabbit hole of having to reform it. Every time you have a good idea, what you want to do is you want to have basically an appendix that is just a live document that you can keep adding to, but it lives independently format wise, and you can refer to it.

01:10:29,970	We maybe refer to it once in here and you say see appendix for additional action items or desired action items or possible action items, and you can rank them any way you want, but you keep it as a live document that doesn’t interfere with the formatting of this document, so that it’s easy. To do.

01:10:47,230	I’m just the appendix would still mirror what’s there. I could. I mean, the. Appendix you could do. Sure, you could have the same format, but it doesn’t it doesn’t get into shuffling this document. Yeah. Right. Right. Because then the next idea will shuffle it more and then so on and.

01:11:03,870	So forth. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is some of the action items we’ve already accomplished. So I don’t think we want to start going down the path of deleting things in the master plan, because we’ve completed them.

01:11:25,130	But we can certainly add to them, um, I don’t know if adopting a scenic road bylaw would be something that we should consider or not. That’s, I think, less critical. Um. I would be curious what other towns have done, um, with that and what some objective criteria would be and what we have jurisdiction over.

01:11:42,670	And what can we can we turn down an application, in other words, and on what basis? And is that appealable to so many pieces to that that are not resolved? Yeah. And I think that Bill raised the critical point is it’s a scenic road by scenic road statute.

01:12:06,200	And sometimes have scenic road bylaws, but no offense to, to to the people that were here. But that portion of Asbury Street is far from scenic. Yeah, it’s suburban. But. I understand. Yes. So you know, but then even if it was scenic, what’s our jurisdiction and what can we. Well, the. State can we approve what can we not approve? Gives us the authority.

01:12:29,770	It actually mandates that the planning board is the body that approves, um, changes that affect scenic roads. It’s on. Us. But there are no standards. To that. Yeah. So then. Right.

01:12:51,670	But you got to be careful because you wouldn’t want to reject an application because of something that had nothing to do with scenery, because then they could take you to court and say, look, the planning board was acting outside of its purview, which is, you know, the bylaw says we’re in charge of overseeing the scenery. It’s not objective. It’s not it’s not it doesn’t have enough standards to it. Right, right, right, right. Okay.

01:13:14,170	So so I will try and put something in writing so that we can actually then amend the master plan. I’ll try and. Do that for the next meeting. Then we need a motion for that non motion tonight. To let you to. Let you get to get to work. That way. But I mean everybody’s in favor of doing it.

01:13:31,000	It’s just how it’s done in the past. And then I’ll do the language. I’ll add an action item. And and you know, whether it actually gets to fruition is, I think, going to depend in large part on, um, and, and Kathy and they have met with a lot of people and I think it does make sense to, um, kind of consolidate

01:13:51,200	everything in one bylaw instead of having things sprinkled all over. But in the, in the, uh, master, I mean, in the bylaw for Gordon Conwell. Um, Theological Seminary, we did include some pretty stringent lighting provisions. So it’s not like, uh, we’ve shied away from doing that, um, on occasion. So. All right.

01:14:23,230	Okay. This was this was something that, um, Amel put together our priorities, uh, because we have we have to implement the master plan. That’s our job. So, uh. Amel, in an email to Mark, noted the following. And I’ll read them and, uh, in, in, in the order that he put them.

01:14:59,600	So revisiting the existing open space, farmland and estate preservation development bylaw, um, and the pod. So the open space, farmland, um. Farmland, whatever. That. 8.1 and then the state overlay district is nine point something.

01:15:34,930	But anyhow, um, we sort of went ahead and have drafted a consolidation of those of the, um, open space by and the estate overlay district bylaw. So that’s 9.4, um, into an open space, farmland in the preservation development bylaw. And so that’s in the works. And then we’ve also. Um.

01:16:02,730	Toyed around with some language, um, with respect to the pod, but we haven’t finalized that, um, then we just talked about the dark Sky bylaw. Um, we have the small clean energy infrastructure and facility siting and permitting regulations. I don’t know what the status of that is, and I almost don’t want to know. Um. Uh, Adu design guidelines. Um, town center guidelines and public space standards.

01:16:29,800	And that in part will depend on the status of our one stop grant. And then also, uh. Uh. Actually and then design guidelines for the form based code. But, um, again, that might depend on the grant. And then I also something that Amel forgot is I really do want to amend section 11. The definitions.

01:16:58,070	Um, because our, our zoning bylaw, uh, has a mishmash of definitions all over the place and it’s easy to get lost. And. Um. The morass of those definitions. And then I did add scenic roads, but I’m a little hesitant. So is the proposal definitions to consolidate them into one section, rather than having them sprinkled? Well.

01:17:21,570	They’re all in one section 11 now, but they’re they really should be in alphabetical order. But sometimes they’ll be, um, well, I know for the, uh, um. Are they still so they’re still in subgroups. Of sometimes some. Yes. So, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. So I know for the, um, um, bear with me, I, I. it’s it’s.

01:17:48,300	Uh, I’m a little bit. The, um. The affordable o the inclusionary housing bylaw. So all the definitions pertinent to inclusionary housing were under inclusionary housing. They should all all the definitions should be alphabetical.

01:18:26,200	And then at the, um, and, uh, there should be, um, a list, uh, a chart where the definitions appear in the bylaws. So whatever that definition may be. That sounds like an ambitious task. Well. You know, it’s. It’s I guess. You can do it. You could do a keyword search with. Yeah, you could do it. But you could. Do that. You can. Do I don’t want to do it, but I take it back. You can do it here.

01:18:44,830	You can do a keyword search already in our bylaw. Yeah. So you know, when you have these definitions, you you can do the keyword search where it appears. But I bet you any money ChatGPT will do that for you. And maybe incorrectly. I know probably can do. It can also do things correctly. Yes.

01:19:10,500	Sometimes you just have to double check it. But I’ll do it yourself. My husband’s become a real convert to ChatGPT. By the way, and. Really. I mean. You can do do it incorrectly in only two seconds. Yes, exactly. Yes. Well. I have to. Say that we.

01:19:29,170	We put up a, um, an obelisk and it wouldn’t go together because of the, uh, just the, the, um, minor imperfections and how the, the bolts and all were.

01:19:51,270	And my colleague, the owner of the company and the owner of the company was going to send him a whole new top piece for this obelisk. And he consulted ChatGPT, and ChatGPT said, loosen all the bolts, put it in your garage and let it sit, and then rotate the top 180 degrees. And you know what? It worked like a charm. And he called up the owner of the company who was going to lose money sending parts.

01:20:13,070	He didn’t have to send, and told him, you. Know, this is what. This is, how to make it work. So yes. Chad can sometimes be wrong, but doing lists like this, it would probably do. it easily enough. Just you could tell it to put all the definitions in alphabetical. Order. AI is like any other tool.

01:20:33,770	Garbage in, garbage out. If you use it smartly, it’ll be very useful for. You, right? Are you good with ChatGPT? I’m fairly. Good. With how you answer. That. Okay. I’m out of business, so. Yeah. Could you, could you run? Could you try putting the definitions? Section 11, in alphabetical order and then. Yeah.

01:20:53,970	Give it a shot. See what it does. I mean you just have to tell it the job. Right. Do you need a word document to do that. Then I can do it. Any, any format you want. Yeah. So you would just.

01:21:15,930	need the latest version of the zoning bylaw and you would tell ChatGPT to put the definitions in alphabetical order. And then to create, um, a chart that indicates, uh, where the definitions appear in the zoning bylaw under what. Section? Yeah. That should be really easy. Yeah. That should be really easy. Okay. Easy. Yeah. And maybe it’ll be great. I could be wrong.

01:21:45,500	But I mean, if even if it’s three quarters correct, it still saves a lot of time. Okay. So, uh, any discussion about, um, where we stand? I think the Adu design guidelines, uh, would be helpful to, to get started on them. Have we. Had. Many, um, Adu has a building inspector gotten. any Adu. There are a bunch. Last year there were eight, I think.

01:22:20,100	I don’t know about this year. Eight last year. Yeah. Under the when the new requirements came out. Yeah. My right. Yeah. So we’re not seeing them. So. Yeah they’re going straight to building department. Yeah I sent around an article from the times that had some outrageous and interesting Adu proposals.

01:22:44,800	I can’t remember in what cities, but, um, it really made very entertaining reading. Did you get that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don’t recall, Mark, when the, uh, Commonwealth is going to make its decision on the grant applications. Do you recall.? I think they said. Um, September. Oh, so. We may know by the end of the summer whether we’re successful.

01:23:14,500	Or not. Yes. And then. Um. Did you tell ever comment on the, um. Flow chart and your, um, I mean, there was the flow chart that ML I think you prepared this, am I correct? Yes. Thanks. Um, his flow chart and also, um. Your, um, materials, um, kind of a checklist. Right? Mark. Yeah.

01:24:03,730	The checklist. Did they have a comment on that? They gave some, uh, not like a formal document, but they gave some comments in an email. I can add it to the the site to discuss in the next meeting, but, um, they didn’t do, like, a formal sort of revision to the document or anything like that.

01:24:25,400	So I didn’t I didn’t review the town center code. Did. Does it have a provision? I hope it does. I think I think that we talked about this, that the the planning board could issue regulations to implement the town Center. code. Or do. I believe so design guidelines. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

01:24:47,830	So but like, we could, um, require something like your checklist because that certainly is helpful for the planning board that we have all the information that we need. Yeah. Yeah, I could check right now, but I’m almost positive. Do you all recall seeing Mark’s checklist? Uh. Not offhand. Yeah. No, no. So, anyhow, maybe.

01:25:20,970	It’s a duplication of the code, essentially. And I think you went down reading the code and just made a list of the. Things.. And it’s a work in progress because there’s, there’s big projects and there’s like the single family owners that I.

01:25:38,200	Think what would be kind of neat is to do, you know, like a single page for each district that has all the requirements of that particular district. Um, and then you can fill in the blank when you’re comparing it with, um, I can work on something like that, but um, so you have the project with, with the various metrics that have

01:25:57,370	to be determined in measuring, because that’s what it is. It’s interpreting the dimensional standards. And the site standards. Um, it all comes down to that. And then they had their chart. We could which would be pretty easy to replicate. And then you can have whatever that district requires for that particular topic.

01:26:18,670	And then right next to it could be a blank column that lists how you read the application and what those numbers are. So a good way to tally it and keep everything in it. You know, format. So you could save it, use it. Um, distribute it and. Yeah, lots of lots of room for improvement.

01:26:39,670	But I can for the next meeting I can circulate that that checklist. I think. I think that would be helpful to, to get to work on that checklist so that when we have another project, we don’t have to be scrambling for more information. And I certainly think that this flow chart is something that also could be incorporated into.

01:27:00,330	The it could be embellished a little bit, but it was a beginning. I thought they would pick up on that and do something. Really neat. But no no, no. But anyhow, this is still good information for people to have. It is. It really is. Take some of the mystery out of it.

01:27:17,370	Yeah. And together with a checklist it’s a start. It’s not a design guideline. It’s not the end all to be all. But it’s it’s certainly better than having nothing. And. Uh. On, on your presentation, I noticed in the last I think it was the last page for the your final.

01:27:41,430	They had nonconformity language town center. I’m not sure. I’m not sure what they’re trying to get at here, Mark. But it’s the last page. Was it the really complicated version from another town? Did Emerson.. No, that was just. I never even wrote that it because. That. Was. Yeah. His purpose was to dissuade us from going. Too deep. You could be.

01:28:02,430	Here. Yes. It’s just too complicated. Yeah. This is the one. Um. So I read that. And, you know, the key part? Family. So that’s a building. That’s a dwelling. And. Uh. The language just is exactly what he had in the code. Uh, changed under the second paragraph.

01:28:30,530	Change would increase the non-conforming nature of the structure and create a new nonconformity. Unless a special permit is granted by the planning board upon a finding that such modification. Alteration. That’s exactly what he had written. So I’m not sure what he’s supposed what we’re supposed to do with this information. It’s not new information. And then all other structures.

01:28:51,330	Again, back to the issue of the Willow Street project. Uh, a primary or accessory non-conforming structure should not be enlarged or altered in a way which increases its nonconformity or creates a new nonconformity. Um. I’m not sure what he was getting at. Do you have any idea what? No. I could certainly follow up with him. Exactly the way you had it written in the code.

01:29:13,230	Yeah, yeah. Anyway. I just the one thing they said they would address, but I don’t know how and when they would address it was my question about, um, I forget what section it’s in, but it had something to do with, uh, unenclosed porches less than eight feet, not contributing to floor area or something like

01:29:30,070	that. And but then it didn’t say, well, what happens if it’s greater than eight feet? And I’ve got the wording wrong, but I forget what section it was in. And they said, yeah, that’s not very clear. KP. KP law has an assessment of that. Okay.

01:29:55,930	You can extend the use, but if the extension increases, the nonconformity, um, only in three ways. Having to do with shape frontage or lot or floor area, then you can’t extend it. But you sort of given an infinite nonconformity of use. But um, you can’t increase its nonconformity in those three dimensions. Yes, yes.

01:30:25,730	I think what you’re discussing, Bill, is the legislature made some changes to the the law on nonconforming. Right. It’s in the KP summary. Right. Yeah. But that’s that’s brand new. That was just passed in the budget, right? A couple of weeks ago. Yeah. That thing when that came out, I was reading that and there’s going to be some conflicts with our codes. Yeah.

01:30:47,100	Katie wrote that this is not final, I guess. Or I think some of its final, some of it is being mandated now, but some of it is going to the state legislature. I think it’s it’s been signed by the governor. So I think it’s fine. I’ll it’s just, um, we’re still trying to figure out what the. Yeah.

01:31:08,000	Repercussions are. What the real repercussions are with, uh, variances because the whole standard has changed. Yeah. And that hardship with respect to soil topography and all of that, that that’s no longer the case. And it’s now practical difficulties. And good luck to the CBA. I mean.

01:31:33,570	Uh, but the one thing that we can take some comfort in is that in the town center code, there is no mention of variances. So if you remember with the Willow Street, uh, project, we denied it. But the homeowners could have sought a variance.

01:31:59,200	But that wouldn’t have involved the planning board. So at least the town center code, it seems to me, is immunized from, uh, these new, uh, this new law. Uh. But certainly the, the zoning bylaw will have to be changed to, um, recognize this new. Uh. New. Uh.

01:32:27,470	The new provisions with respect to variances so that the changes to chapter 48, section six, are the most significant, I. Think. And some of the other, um, provisions. Um, about extensions and this, that and the other, I think are some were, uh, not even mandatory. Um. I think they’re less drastic, I think.

01:33:01,230	And then the, uh, and this whole new law governing, um, variances and I don’t know if the, this economic development bill could further muddy the waters, but that that hasn’t been signed yet.

01:33:28,000	So I don’t know whether the next step for KP law is to look at our zoning bylaw and make recommendations to how we should comply with the law, or whether or not the we should just sit pretty and hope that nothing comes before us or the CBA until the Commonwealth itself issues. Some guide guidance as to how this new law governing variances should be applied.

01:33:54,630	I don’t know, I would count on the state to do that just because they they passed this on an emergency basis. So it took effect immediately, which. Is that’s. Just kind of crazy because people have, in other towns, submitted various applications under the old criteria.

01:34:12,330	And then I’ve talked to some planners like, do we evaluate the application under the new or the old criteria? And it really created a lot of like we we we’re scrambling now. We have to update the applications for the zoning board and educate the zoning board and what the changes mean. KP will be at the next zoning board meeting to sort of go over that. But so. If the application precedes the effective date of the. Law.

01:34:31,370	It seems to me under this new law, there’s protection for. That. Yeah. I read. I. Just don’t there’s no provision in the law that says it applies retroactively to applications that are pending. Yeah. I just don’t understand why they didn’t have it apply six months later.

01:34:55,470	So that town’s a little bit of time to, you know, prepare for it. But I’m not I’m not making these decisions obviously. But I think the CBA is really. Um. Going to be hard pressed. Fortunately, we don’t have any pending variance application. So, um, we’ll have to make some quick changes, but it’s not going to affect anything in the pipeline right now. Yeah.

01:35:19,430	So we have passed a town zoning ordinance for the seminary, which specifies in great detail what what some detail, what can and can’t be done. And it looks like the Economic development Bill might allow those guys to buy the apartments and do all of this by. Right. Residential. Residential. Yeah. Right.

01:35:48,230	And to our best intentions may have effectively have been thwarted by the state in the sense that I don’t know if anybody wants to do any multifamily development up there. They can buy up those buildings and do all of that. Just buy, right? They don’t need to, you know, submit or even submit a plan to buy.

01:36:08,570	Right? It looks like that’s where they’re headed. It looks like they’re usurping local planning boards. Well. That hasn’t happened. To me. That hasn’t been enacted yet. So yeah, it’s an. Attempt. That’ll be contested. But I don’t know. I looked at that. Whole thing’s not as an economic development bill, but as a housing bill.

01:36:25,700	Almost everything had to do with housing. That was. All about the donors. But yes, they would. They would render much of that work that we did useless, override it. Although it hasn’t passed yet. So I understand that. I understand that. Okay, Mark, I just have one last question. Sure.

01:36:45,570	On a copy of your paper number, page number three. Um, first highlighted, um, paragraph increases to maximum periods of variance for variance, duration and extensions. Yeah. Budget bill extends from 1 to 2 years. The period of a variance is valid and excludes two things.

01:37:12,230	The time necessary to pursue other entitlements to construct the project, and two, the time to await the determination of an appeal. Um. Is what is there something missing in there? Just the period of of variance is valid. I didn’t realize there was a period after. I. Say the CBA for a variance that you have to wait in. It’s a waiting period.

01:37:41,970	I think this isn’t the waiting period. I think it’s it’s how long the permit lasts. Right? Yeah. So once you’re. Has a it has a time has time fuse on it. If you don’t use it it expires. Yeah. So you have. To it’s not used. That’s a yeah. You have to activate that variance somehow.

01:37:58,930	So pull a building permit or. Yes. And building building permits or have, have that. You got to dig the ground within a certain period of time with the. Building to. Most permits do can come from. very common. Very common. Yeah. Um, but then once you get it rolling, it can drag out for years. Yes.

01:38:18,300	So it was one year. They changed it to two years. And. Um. I guess the question I have is if, if, if section five of our zoning bylaw has to be rewritten even though we don’t deal with variances, are we responsible for drafting the language of an amended section five for submission to, um, the

01:38:49,300	town as a warrant article. Part of the zoning bylaw? So I think, yes, the planning board would have to, if necessary, propose an amendment. Right. So even though we don’t deal with variances, we’re going to have to help out the Zeba and redraft the language of section five to comport with the new new version of chapter 48,

01:39:12,270	section six. And section six has almost the existing language has basically been rescinded. And there’s new language in its place, except for the first paragraph. So. Yeah, there’s a lot. To. Unpack here. All right. So the old variance didn’t have the term practical hardship in it.

01:39:48,670	And that’s that’s like a gap that you could drive, you know a semi through. Yeah. Yeah. Thank. You responsible. You know. What does that mean. Even. And then they include financial hardship. Financial hardship. Didn’t used to be part of it either. There’s always. You know that’s like that’s. Like a given. It’s there’s. always why do you need a variance. It’s fine.

01:40:10,000	Well it was always it was always soils shape and topography. Yeah. You know shaped it a. Lot in making its determination. It’s what you inherited rather than you know, what your financial abilities are. You know what the what the, the the the property hands you. Yeah. Here, let me read this language.

01:40:31,670	And you see how difficult this is in making its determination. The permit granting authority shall weigh the benefits to the appellant or petitioner and to the public interest, including the interest in supporting the production of housing against the detriment to the public health, safety and welfare of the. Neighborhood. So bizarre.

01:40:55,200	And may also consider whether the practical difficulty relates to soil conditions, shape or topography of such land or structures, whether the strict enforcement would impose a financial hardship on the appellant or petitioner, whether the benefit sought by the appellant or petitioner can be achieved by some other method feasible for the appellant or petitioner to achieve.

01:41:19,800	That’s called second guessing, and whether the practical difficulty was self-created. What does that mean? And why would you ever want to, you know, ignore topography and soil conditions because if the soil is bad, they’ll project that slide off into oblivion. I mean, not. Very thoughtful. I mean. Well, no.

01:41:42,370	Soil shape and topography has always been there historically, you know, and so if you have, it just means like if you have bad soils on one side of the lot, they’ll let you break the setbacks on the other side because you didn’t create that condition, that soil condition or that shape of that lot.

01:41:59,800	You know, it’s just to show it’s literally the hardship of the nature of the lot rather than financial or decision making burdens. Well. But anyway, I don’t know how you would enforce these. New. Provisions. Yeah. With any regularity. Yeah. It seems like it needs it needs more specificity. Yeah. And or case law. Case law. Yeah, yeah. That’s it. That’s the ticket. Yeah.

01:42:34,030	You’re not going to come up with all possibilities and statute. You’re gonna mull these over for a couple of years and look at some cases, and then you’ll then people will better understand what that means. Practical difficulties. So it’d be interesting to see what other towns are doing with this. Yeah. Yeah.

01:42:56,300	I mean, I think everyone’s kind of in the same boat because it was I hadn’t even heard about variance reform. There’s been talk about other things, but, um, I had no idea this was being contemplated. And, um, I think what we’re planning to do, the zoning board, is going to make some quick changes based on the variance changes.

01:43:14,930	Um, we’re going to see what happens in the economic development bill. Um, I’m expecting there’s going to be some planning things in there. Um, and then we can invite Robin or Amy to come and talk to us. Any changes we need to make. Okay. Can I make a motion to adjourn? Absolutely. You can. I so do. Second. All in.

01:43:40,700	Favor? Aye.