00:00:00,720 S1: It's 7:00. Um, why don't we get started with the meeting? It's the March 25th meeting of the Hamilton Conservation Commission. And first order of business is to take a roll and see if we have a quorum. And I can see that we do, but I'll do the asking anyway, because everything is recorded. And we need to identify ourselves by name so that whoever is transcribing this knows who's speaking. Thank you. Virginia cookson yeah. 00:00:35,039 S2: Jeremy Foster Cookson, do you want me to say my whole name or just just acknowledge or say my name? 00:00:40,960 S1: Yes. No, you don't have to say your name. You can just say you're here, Denise Kelley here, Jeremy Foster. 00:00:50,039 S2: Here. 00:00:50,960 S1: And Sandy cording. 00:00:53,039 S3: Here. 00:00:54,039 S1: Okay, great. We have a full house today. Good to see you all. And as usual, I got papers everywhere. So bear with me as we try to go through the agenda this evening. 00:01:06,540 S3: Mhm. 00:01:09,180 S1: Um, the first item that's on the agenda is a notice of intent for Master EPP, file number 17206640 00:01:20,299 S1: Glendale Avenue, which is a continuation of a hearing we had for a project at zero Glendale Avenue. Um, we were looking for. Yes. Bethany. 00:01:34,459 S4: The applicant has requested a continuance until the April 8th meeting. 00:01:40,019 S1: Okay. Will they be making a presentation tonight or speaking? 00:01:44,540 S4: I honestly do not see any representatives for them. 00:01:48,260 S1: Okay. All right. So we need to take a vote, I guess, or a motion to continue. 00:01:55,939 S2: I move to Continue. 00:01:58,359 S5: I'll second Denise Kelly. I'll second. 00:02:02,719 S1: I'll call. Roll on that. Jeremy Foster. 00:02:06,079 S3: I. 00:02:07,439 S1: Uh, Denise Kelly. 00:02:08,520 S5: I. 00:02:10,000 S1: Sandy Codi. 00:02:11,639 S3: I. 00:02:13,599 S1: And Virginia Cookson. 00:02:14,919 S2: I. 00:02:15,919 S1: And Nancy baker I. 00:02:19,520 S1: Okay. Um they did submit some information just in FYI, but it came in rather late. And so, um, Bethany's been working with the applicant to ensure that the material comes in that we need in order to review it. 00:02:36,120 S4: Yes. 00:02:36,719 S1: Okay. Okay. And the next one is, um. 00:02:41,680 S6: I have a I have a question. Hi. I'm. I'm Patty. Explain. I have an a buddy. I have an abutting property to to the proposed. Um, so what was the extension date that they moved to? I. 00:02:54,810 S4: I'm sorry. Patty. Um, they requested a continuance to the next meeting, which is April 8th, which is in two weeks. 00:03:09,810 S6: Okay, I guess I guess I can join then. I do have questions about certain things. Like, do they hire wetlands specialists? Have they surveyed the land properly? Is any of this? Am I going to be on my property and the disturbance of water? Right. But that's part of all of what you're doing. 00:03:30,289 S2: So what what will you live across next to. 00:03:36,289 S6: Next to the bus. So I'm a I'm a butter in the in I own I forget what number. Glendale Ave on the other side. On the other side I'm Wenham. 00:03:48,889 S1: Are you in Wenham? 00:03:50,050 S6: No, I'm in Hamilton. 00:03:51,610 S1: Okay. 00:03:52,729 S6: I'm in Hamilton. Um, the just the concerns that I had is when they had built Juniper Lane way back when. Ah, the the property that we own now. Um, we didn't own it back then. They didn't properly do the drainage. So this whole property, which was like five house lots, was completely flooded and the town paid to move the house and did a filler. Right. And so the land part of the land became wetlands. 00:04:24,029 S1: All right. Well, we'll, um, we'll be very happy to hear from you. And if you would like to write any of this information down and send us a formal letter on that, we'll be happy to review that before the meeting. 00:04:37,069 S6: I don't disagree with them building. I just want to make sure the property doesn't get flooded. Right. You know, and and have the wetlands grow. So. Sure. And do I just send a letter to Bethany? She's been very helpful. Tell me how and thanks. 00:04:52,209 S1: That would be good. Thank you. All right. Thank you. Good to meet you. We'll I'll I'll just. 00:04:56,889 S6: Sing you up and let you guys do your thing. 00:05:00,209 S4: Have a nice night, Patty. 00:05:01,970 S6: Take care everyone. 00:05:03,370 S1: Bye bye. Good night. Okay. The second item is a request for certification. Uh, compliance. It's mass dep file number 1720621. 00:05:17,290 S1: The address is 138 and 140 Echo Cove Road in Hamilton. And the application applicant is Mr. William Hall. I'm hoping I'm pronouncing your name right. Um, I see that Mr. Hall is here tonight. Hello. So how? 00:05:35,850 S7: That's how we say it. Yes. 00:05:37,410 S1: Okay. I'm sorry. I miss. 00:05:39,329 S7: My parent. My parents taught it to me that way. I in Ireland, it's pronounced Huck. But, uh, my parents said. How so? That's what I said. 00:05:49,470 S1: Thank you. Um, Mr.. How would you want to make a presentation on your certificate of compliance? 00:05:58,110 S7: Um, I am going to lean on my, uh, professionals, uh, who are also on the call. Uh, Caitlin and, uh, Jill. 00:06:06,589 S8: Yep. Um. Good evening. My name is Caitlin White. I'm a wetland scientist from Hancock Associates. Um, Joe and I are here on behalf of Bill. Um, for this request, if I can, I'd like to share my screen so I can just share the plans. 00:06:20,829 S4: You should be able to. 00:06:22,670 S8: Yeah. Okay. Can everyone see the plans here now? 00:06:27,230 S5: It's coming up. Yep. 00:06:29,149 S3: Okay. 00:06:29,829 S8: Awesome. Um, so, like you said, um, this order of conditions, it was issued back in 2021. Um, the approved work was renovations to existing dwellings on site in a new garage, which is almost entirely out of the 100 foot buffer zone. Um, the applicant purchased this property in hopes to be closer to his family. Um, he has some grandkids that he is hoping to enjoy the property with. Um, so since the permit has been approved, um, it has gone through a few modifications as well as a permit extension which has taken place. Um, since then, the construction has been completed with some slight modifications, but overall the project is relatively the same. Um, I'll just outline some of the adjustments. Um, so I want to highlight that minimal groundwork was done with this scope of work. Um, the intent was to reuse the existing foundations from the previous structures and just bring them up to livable standards. Um, they were kind of deteriorating. Um, there were porches that were kind of falling into the lake, things like that. So since then, Bill has taken on this project to bring them up to snuff and it turned out very nice. Um, the site is currently stable. Um, there were no illicit discharges into the lake. The shoreline is still intact and stable. Um, the deviations that did take place is that. Let's start with 138. Um, so this is 138. It's two dwellings on one lot. Um, 138. One of the biggest differences is that the deck was kind of rounded off. And these stairs that were proposed were not constructed in their place. There's this corner of decking that was completed. Um, that's kind of the main difference for that one. It is slightly closer to the lake, about one foot. Um, but I want to highlight that the decking has spacing in between it that allows for water to infiltrate, and below there is stone that would infiltrate any sediment that would come from stormwater. Um, and then for 140, um, this stairway was originally proposed facing this way, but there are some mature trees here that Bill was hoping to save. And that is the reason for this relocation, to save some mature trees that are existing here along the side of the house. Um, this deck also just based on the during the construction process, it is slightly closer as well. Um, but again, it's just the decking. The footing has not changed. They're still in the same locations. Um, and then this stairway was not completed. It was just determined that it wasn't a worthwhile staircase. Um, so this deck just ends right here. Um, as you can see, this garage farther back away from the resort area. Um, was originally proposed outside the 100 foot buffer zone. Um, just due to feasibility with turning around, they flipped the orientation of the garage to aim this way. So this is where the garage bays are. Um, and so it does encroach slightly into 100 foot buffer zone. Um. 00:10:11,220 S8: Overall, we we there there was correspondence between the applicant and the commission. Unfortunately, um, with the change of agents, um, that kind of got lost in the, the shuffle. Um, but the intent during the whole process was to construct this as approved and complete the project while being respectful to the resource area. Um, we feel like even with these deviations, that the project was completed to the utmost compliance as it could be. Um, and we didn't have any negative reactions to the lake. Um, erosion controls were in place the entire time. No breaches. Um, um, yeah. And we've been on site with Bethany. Um, we addressed as many of her questions as we could, but I would be happy to field any questions at this time. Thank you. 00:11:09,919 S1: Okay. I'd like to start, um, if that's possible. And then I'll ask the commissioners to speak. Um, the lake is a really valuable resource to both the state and the community. As you probably know, it's a great lake. 00:11:27,720 S5: Mhm. 00:11:28,799 S1: Um, and it's more than ten acres. So we try to pay special attention to impacts within wetland resource areas, particularly with respect to any resource, but more so because of Tobacco Lake and, um. Waivers are not granted lightly. And I see that you did apply for a waiver with the notice of intent. And I guess in spending a lot of time with the materials, I'm a little bit concerned that the order there were special conditions in that order. And they they don't seem to have been followed. Exactly. And I hope you can enlighten me about that, because they they were really clear in number 23 and 24 and on that, um, let me see if I've got them. They were really clear and they, they specifically said the plans shall be followed. Precisely. And the word shall means shall. That means exactly as they're drafted. That's what the Conservation Commission in that time agreed to. And keep in mind that the 25 foot no disturb zone in our bylaw, and we're pretty, pretty strict about the bylaw with respect to the 25 foot. And that's no disturbance and no construction. So that they were pretty accommodating when they allowed you to do any work within the 25 foot. And that's why that language was in there, that there will be followed precisely, and that there will be no deviation in the plan unless and until the Conservation Commission is notified and gives its authority, or 00:13:22,960 S1: the agent for the Commission gives its approval. We went through the materials that you sent, and we could find no evidence either in our records. Bethany and another person scoured our records. She spent a lot of time going through them and could find no evidence of either agent that was apparently identified in the filing with us that any of them had approved this change, nor had the Conservation Commission been notified. And also, it was troubling to me that they were very specific with these special conditions and saying that within 30 days of completion of the project, you must apply for a certificate of compliance. Now, we're not really that strict on that usually, but it's interesting that that condition was in there. But it's been four years, three and a half years that this project has been completed. And I did see among the materials that you did submit the emails, that correspondence that you were told multiple times by the agent that he was looking for that certificate of compliance. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Um, but I don't think we have time to go into all of those. So I guess between the fact that you've expanded the development within the no disturb zone in the 25 foot and we were told specifically no deviation, I am very concerned. I also am concerned that the way one of the conditions of the waiver was an ecological restoration, and that was not submitted, that I could find in the materials if it was submitted, I apologize, but I could not find an ecological restoration with the submittal. So, um, let's see, where does that leave me? I know that there are a number of issues outstanding. Then as a result, the ecological restoration, unless there is one that I missed. And I know that Bethany had asked for some computations about impervious cover, so that we try to match up with the ecological restoration. No additional impervious ness. And you know, when you calculate impervious ness, we also include everything, even if there's slats between it and a deck. That's always been the way that it's been done. So whatever additional coverage over that property, it would be helpful to know that and then to try to match up the infiltration of stormwater on that site, and also maybe maybe to look at some of the plan. I mean, I saw that there were some concrete steps, something more could be done there with ecological restoration. You've got a big driveway area there that could all be restored back into natural vegetation. So I think there's a lot we can do here that that would go a long way towards resolving these issues. But, um. 00:16:35,789 S1: I think we're a ways off at this point. And in my opinion, in looking at what we can do with the certificate of compliance, I think the Commission has the decision to either make to deny it based on non-compliance or an amended order of conditions where we work with you and try to come up with a plan that more clearly meets what the waiver request included, as well as, um, addresses some of these deficiencies of you moving forward and more close to, um, to the lake we're in our interest here is protecting that lake, by and large, because it is such an important resource to our community. And I'm sure that's why the homeowner wants to live there, because it is a beautiful resource and he wants to protect it, I'm sure. I know I haven't heard from him and I don't want to speak for you, Mr. Howell, but you wouldn't move to that beautiful location if you really didn't want to do the best you can to protect it and work with us. So I just wanted to start there. I usually let the commissioners speak first, but I felt very concerned in looking at this, and I wanted to speak first. And I hope the commission doesn't, um, isn't concerned that I've done done so as the chairperson, but I will open it to questions and comments, and maybe we can work from there and get your thoughts on it and ease. Kelly. 00:18:02,490 S5: Um, so, Nancy, I, um, I absolutely have no problem with you, uh, speaking first, and I think a lot of what you said, I echo, I think my main concern is that, um, the decking did go forward and the garage was flipped and into the zone, and I can't find anything regarding the deck in writing that that was approved. There were in the submission, it said that it was discussed, but I don't I can't find anything saying that it was approved by, um, by either of the prior commissioners. So for me, that is a concern because why go through the process of asking for approval if it's if it's not going to be done as requested? 00:18:53,220 S1: Thank you. 00:18:56,740 S1: Um, others comments. 00:18:59,339 S2: I, I have, I have a whole page. So, um, I'll let everybody else go and maybe I won't have so much fat. Okay. 00:19:05,900 S1: Okay. All right. Are there other comments before Virginia raises her comments? 00:19:11,059 S3: No. 00:19:12,180 S1: No, Sandy, I don't see you again. Are you raising your hand? 00:19:16,339 S3: I I'm not I think you've between you and Denise have covered a lot of my thoughts. So you can go to Virginia. 00:19:25,920 S1: Okay. Thank you. Virginia. 00:19:29,839 S2: Um. I'm sorry, I just have to get my screen back on. Uh, 00:19:35,519 S2: it's very touchy. Okay. 00:19:40,799 S2: But look, I'm on, but I can't see myself anything. Um, okay. Uh, my questions varied a lot, but, um, I had obvious questions is, you know, why did they make the two changes? It sounds to me it's because, well, they had wood that would go out, say, 16ft. And if it calls for 15, well, we don't want to cut the wood, so just leave it on you. I really do think that somehow sometimes that happens. Um, and, um, I'd like to know, you know, why they did it? Just because they wanted it. I mean, was there an actual reason that they needed it? Uh, secondly, you'll find that the, um, the staircase proposed on both of them, um, at least on one of them know both was in one was like in a no build, and they moved it to the no disturb zone. And they put the garage, which was out of the buffer into the buffer. And I believe the other staircase goes into the, you know, it also goes into a deeper into the no disturb, I believe. Um, so that that concerns me and I, I'd like to know why you did all that. 00:21:02,500 S8: Can I answer is that sure? 00:21:04,579 S1: Yes. Of course. 00:21:05,819 S8: Yeah. Um, so the reason that the decks moved out is because the applicant had a addition that went here, a cantilevered addition that pushed it out slightly. Um, on both of the decks. The reason that this this is a staircase. I think you're referencing Virginia. Um, it moved from the no build to the No disturb to save a tree. Um. 00:21:36,680 S9: I also wanted to highlight that this. 00:21:38,759 S8: Lot was developed prior. It was developed in, I think, 1930. 00:21:44,000 S9: Yeah. 00:21:44,400 S8: Prior to the development to the enactment of the Wetlands Protection Act as well as the local bylaws. So it is an existing non-conforming site, which I understand. That's I just want to highlight that, um, I understand that the intent is still to protect the resource area, but these structures were already here in these buffer zones were already developed. Um, and I can understand that they did go slightly closer to the resource area, but it's only a foot closer for 138, and it's two feet closer for 140. 00:22:17,319 S1: Um, can you please give us the accounting for that? I mean, what were the numbers that were in the NOI for within? And how much increase? What percentage increase? Um, what is the total amount? Now, I guess I was concerned that the NOI tried to belittle the fact that it was 118ft² in the, um, no disturb zone. No disturb means no disturbance. It's really clear in our bylaws. So it's it is significant to us. It may not be to the applicant or to you, but I we want you to understand that that is significant. Yeah. You know, it takes away habitat. It takes away the values of the wetland resource area. It diminishes it. And, um, and there was no, um, ecological restoration proposed for any of these impacts. 00:23:13,900 S8: Okay. Um, we do have the breakdown and I can provide that. I think it would be useful if I made it into a document, so you guys could all review how the calculations become. Um, and so you can see the breakdown in what the actual structures were. Um, if that is useful. 00:23:32,279 S7: Uh, may I make a comment about that? 00:23:36,000 S1: Of course. Please identify yourself. 00:23:38,240 S7: Uh, my name is Bill Howe. I'm the property owner. 00:23:40,839 S1: Okay. Well, it's just because there's a transcriber. We we know who you were, but the transcriber won't know. Okay. Thank you. 00:23:48,680 S7: Bill. Okay. Now, now, do you know? 00:23:51,799 S1: Now the transcriber will know. Yes. Thank you. 00:23:54,440 S7: Okay, so I moved here from another part of the world. And this whole entire process has been extraordinarily confusing and convoluted to me. And I've. Every move that I've made has been coordinated with Mary Ellen Feiner of the Hamilton Construction Department. and all along the way as changes occurred. I ran this by her as well as, uh, Rich, uh, Maloney, the building inspector, and I was pushed all the way through the Zoning Board of Appeals because of some of these changes we had made to the original plan, which was a a guess by me in 2020 when we purchased this property, found two dilapidated buildings that were literally collapsing and falling apart. And we wanted to fix them up and make them nice. And so as we went through this entire process, I was constantly talking to the inspector, to the zoning department, and anytime anybody said, you know what, you need to go back to this organization. We had to do rodent things. We had to do zoning things. And I said, do I need to do anything about these modifications that we're making to the original guesstimate, which was what I applied for in 2020 with the wonderful folks at Hancock. And I said, if anything here triggers something, please tell me who I need to talk to and what I need to say. And there has been nothing. There have been five different people in the Conservation Commission that I've dealt with, starting with Bert Cummings, who was a wonderful young man, very helpful. And they've come and gone and come and gone and every step of the way I've reached out and said, is there anything I should be doing to be in compliance with your rules here in Hamilton, Massachusetts? And there's been absolutely nothing. So now you guys are telling me this stuff five years into the process, and I have played by the rules the entire way, I have not disturbed one single piece of dirt on that property that's anywhere near the lake. I am on the Tobacco Lake Watershed Association. I'm a member. I'm a I'm a I'm a senior member. I love the lake. I want to take care of things. I don't want to abuse the property. But you guys have dropped the ball over and over and over again. And I have been asking, what do I need to do to comply with these crazy rules? So for you to tell me now that I didn't do something because of something in a document. I've talked to five different coordinators over the last six years. 00:26:44,930 S1: Mr. Howell. 00:26:45,970 S10: A little upset. 00:26:46,609 S7: About this, because I've done everything I was told I was supposed to do. 00:26:51,490 S1: Mr.. How you received the order of conditions, correct. 00:26:57,650 S7: This is all Greek to me. I come from a different planet. I'm from Minnesota. Things are very straightforward there. This is confusing. 00:27:06,930 S10: It is it is straightforward. It is why I hired Hancock. 00:27:10,990 S7: May I speak, please? 00:27:12,549 S1: Sure. 00:27:14,029 S7: If you want to talk, go ahead. But then, when you're ready to let me speak, please let me speak. 00:27:18,309 S1: No, no, I don't want you to get more upset. 00:27:20,750 S7: So this is why I hired Hancock and Associates. I've paid them an extraordinary amount of money to hold my hand through the process. And here we are. And some dimensions deviated from the original plan. They are tiny deviations. They're insignificant. I'm an engineer, I build buildings. I know how this works. These are insignificant details. They're not. 00:27:47,269 S1: Mr. Al. Yes, I appreciate that. But I do think you need to understand that. Were this a new project or were this a redevelopment project and there would be nothing allowed in the 25 foot? I don't think that has ever been explained to you that what you got as an order of conditions from the commission was an exception rather than a rule. They were very generous with you, allowing you to do any work within that 25 foot. That is a no disturb zone under our bylaw that we didn't write the bylaws. We are just following the bylaws and working with them the best we can. And we want to work with you on this, Mr. Howe. And we think there's a way out of this, and we don't necessarily want to have to deny you the certificate of compliance. But right now, the way this stands and with the information we have, and I think Caitlin can explain it to you more. Um, it's not it's not ready. It doesn't meet the waiver request. You had to apply for a waiver to do the work you did when you filed with us. I and we put out conditions. Most of them were standard in the order of conditions, but there were some special conditions and every one of those special conditions, based on the information we have at hand right now, were not adhered to. Unfortunately I'm not we're not holding you responsible for that. But we want to protect this resource, and we think there's a way to do that. Despite the fact that you've gone ahead and proceeded with without any record of anyone on the commission approving the additions. 00:29:33,940 S7: I don't know what to say. I've gone to the city with. 00:29:38,220 S10: Every. 00:29:39,019 S7: Move and said, who should I talk to to make sure this is okay? 00:29:44,380 S1: Well, it is your responsibility to have that order of conditions and to look at those conditions and to make sure they're followed as the applicant. And maybe that wasn't explained to you completely. And we're here now at. 00:29:56,940 S10: This point and let's try to. 00:29:58,380 S1: Work. 00:29:58,819 S10: Okay. 00:29:59,180 S7: It definitely was not okay. 00:30:01,259 S1: Well we are not responsible for that. we are responsible for protecting the resource, and we want to work with you to do that. And we're hoping that we can find a way to move past the deficiencies and get to something that you would be happy. I think you'll be happier if you're able to put in some ecological restoration there. We can give you some guidance on that, but I'm going to leave that to the commission on whether they feel so strongly about it being denied or. 00:30:33,920 S9: Ask. 00:30:34,119 S1: A question that an amended order could be completed, which would address these deficiencies. 00:30:41,599 S1: And Virginia hasn't finished commenting, by the way. I'm sorry. 00:30:46,440 S2: That's okay. 00:30:47,720 S1: Go ahead. Virginia. 00:30:49,440 S2: I raised my hand. Wasn't my question. It was very, um, to the view that, uh, that when something is actually. You already did that. You told them about the weather, has buildings or not, and what we do, but also on the other conditions. It has a condition in the states that you're going to change it or need to change it. You've got to come back to the commission, not just talk to the agent, and let's talk to the agent and say, you know, could you get me on the agenda or could you tell him or, you know, something like that? Um, so talking to the building inspectors, um, you know, the the, um, uh, administrative assistance system, they don't work for the Conservation Commission. They may know a lot about it, but they don't work. Um, so I'm sorry, but I do think there was something you could see. And, uh, if you're an engineer, you're you're smarter than I am. And so if I can understand in other conditions, sometimes I have to read a second time, but if I can, I can't imagine. You can't. So that's where our directions are. We respond to what you want to do is fill us a plan. We say, okay, we talk about different things and all ingredients, and then we say, okay, right now all the conditions, you follow this and we're both happy right now. I think nobody's happy. So I do think that's important for me to keep positive. Um, I had a lot to say about the report you had from Goddard. Um, but you don't have Goddard with you right now, do you? 00:32:32,359 S1: Hancock? It's. 00:32:33,400 S2: Hancock isn't saying it, right? Right. Yep. Okay. Gotcha. All right. 00:32:39,200 S10: I defer to. 00:32:40,440 S7: Caitlin and Joe. 00:32:43,039 S11: Okay. Okay. 00:32:45,400 S2: Um, yeah. One other thing. There are two people on the commission right now. Um, Sandy, uh. Uh, Sandy and myself. And, uh, I do remember this finally, because it's so unusual to have a family with two houses on the same line. Um, so I do remember and I remember talking to the the applicant nonstop to, um, see what they wanted we could do and all. And what came out with was that that that plan was accepted with the other condition, and we made it. We made a one big deal about it on the property when we took a sidewalk, as well as in the meeting, it was at the, um. 00:33:32,099 S2: Uh, but. 00:33:36,339 S2: Uh, what we were really we spent time with, with making sure that it that any work being done in the, in the, uh, no disturbed. Uh, and we tried to work with the applicant to move everything out. We could, you know, um, and, and that first and that accepted plan was what was done. So since I remember all the discussion, uh, and apparently we all knew what we were going to do, and then I see them come in. Well, it's only a foot. It's only two. 00:34:10,889 S11: Feet. 00:34:11,869 S2: I agree that most people, that's all it is. But for the Conservation Commission, um, it isn't it is important. And I think Nancy actually covers a lot of things, which explains why it's important to us. 00:34:28,389 S11: Okay. 00:34:29,389 S2: That's it for. 00:34:29,909 S11: Now. Thank you. 00:34:32,429 S1: Okay. 00:34:35,309 S3: I don't know if you can see me now or not. 00:34:38,110 S1: Uh, no, I can't, I can't. But, Sandy. Go ahead. 00:34:41,750 S4: Yeah. 00:34:42,309 S3: Thanks, Sandy. Um, for the record, I do not believe I was on the commission yet when this, uh, originally came before the commission? 00:34:52,070 S4: Yeah. I didn't see your name on the signatures. 00:34:54,969 S3: I definitely didn't sign it. I was not here. The agent prior to Brian Colin was here, so I'm quite sure that it was before my time. Um, I just wanted to say that, uh, number one, I think for me, a site visit would be helpful to see what this all looks like in person. And number two, that I would lean more towards, um, amending rather than denying. 00:35:26,489 S1: Okay, I see. Thank you. Um, Alicia Brennan has her hand up. 00:35:35,449 S5: I think it was me. Oh. Oh, sorry. 00:35:37,769 S9: Go ahead. 00:35:38,969 S10: Oh, just a quick comment. 00:35:41,650 S5: Um, regarding the garage, I did see in the email documentation that one of the prior commissioners said that it was outside the buffer. The change that you had dropped out was outside the buffer. So I don't know if there was just a miscommunication or whatever, but in fact, if if that's what he thought and that's what you dropped off, if the change that you dropped off is in fact what you built to, um, I would have to stand by. I think the email that said, don't worry about it, but I think my bigger concerns are the ducks. But that's all. 00:36:23,550 S1: Did Alicia Brennan have her hand up? 00:36:25,949 S9: Yes I did. So, hi, my name is Alicia Brennan. I'm the planning coordinator for the Town of Hamilton. So I work closely with Bethany, and we spent about, I'd say 3 or 4 hours today reviewing a lot of the old documents, trying to find a paper trail for the communications. And when we were going through, um, the narrative written by Hancock Associates, it was specified that the, um, the changes in this plan that have been constructed were only reviewed by Brian Cochrane, who was the conservation administrator at the time. Doesn't say approved. It says they were approved by the building inspector right before it and reviewed by Brian Collar. And so I just wanted to make that distinction, because I don't know if we're necessarily even missing an approval from Brian if it may not even exist. So I just wanted to I didn't want to shift blame to anybody about where that fell through the cracks. Um, I think it was just a matter of maybe things got lost in translation and it wasn't brought before the commission, which would typically be the due process for something like this. Um, and I did want to comment to that. I was looking at the plans and I calculated that the Dec extension, if it were, you know, solid wood, would be about, um, 106. Give or take. Square feet added onto the, um, onto the deck. And that would be in my mind. That's a decent amount of space that's protruding into the no disturb zone for, in terms of my opinion. And of course, that's not accounting for the the slats in the wood. So it's semi semi pervious which is helpful. But of course it is still disrupting the stormwater patterns. And I do think it would be helpful to have some kind of um, I guess, I mean, stormwater mitigation would have been implemented throughout the process anyway. But to have like you had mentioned, ecological restoration, maybe a line of vegetation to help with some of that extra stormwater runoff coming from the the deck that would normally not be there because it'd be percolating into the, the existing soil and rocks and everything that was on the land. Um, but those are my I, I actually had a question too, for either Hancock or Mr. Howe. Um, I was wondering why the cantilever wing of the home extension was not mentioned. If that was in the intention all along. Because it seems to be a pretty, uh, pretty intertwined with the extension of the deck. And I was I was just curious about how that connected with this plan that was brought before the Conservation Commission, considering part of it is in that no disturb zone. 00:39:18,010 S10: Uh. 00:39:18,929 S7: It was an idea I had, uh, we had never intended to demolish these buildings and rebuild them. Or when we bought the property six years ago, our intention was just to fix them up. And as we got into the buildings, they were rotten. They were collapsing. They were falling down. And the two different builders we worked with, uh, persuaded me to start over again. So we took each building down one at a time, down to the foundation. We maintained the existing foundations on both buildings, and when we got to building the 140, which is where we live, that's our home. Um, I came up with an idea to cantilever the, the, the top floor off of the foundation. So we we maintained the foundation exactly as it was. But when we built the main floor, we extended it 1.5ft toward the lake, one foot toward the street, uh, to gain a little bit of square footage in the house, but without disturbing the foundation, the dirt, the the yard, anything. We didn't dig anything. We never we we didn't dig a foundation. Nothing. And that then was run by the building inspector and Mary Ellen Fenner. And I said, is there anybody else I should be talking to about this? And I was assured, no, We're good. And so that's why I did not. And that combined with my ignorance about how things work here, I did not understand that that would be a trigger to go back and redo the entire conservation plan proposal that I had hired Hancock to do back in 2021. So that's my bat. 00:41:07,280 S9: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that explanation. That gives a lot of context to why the deck was extended the way it was, I appreciate it. 00:41:15,599 S7: Thank you. Well, you're you're most welcome. I was trying to be a good guy and do the right thing. 00:41:22,440 S2: Lisa, did you include the area they took the steps out of and put it in? Just, uh, squared off the deck when you were fishing? 00:41:31,920 S9: I didn't include the steps area. I only included the extensions that led to the steps. 00:41:37,440 S12: Yeah. So that that. 00:41:38,280 S7: Picture that's showing on the screen right now. Uh, let's say at the bottom of the picture, there are some red steps that are going back toward, let's call it back toward the garage. And when I designed this thing, I just plunked something down on the plan to, you know, have a conversation with the inspector. Originally, those steps on the let's call it the north side of the building that protrudes straight up the page. We're going to go alongside the house to stay out of any kind of, uh, you know, whatever you call the. 00:42:14,619 S10: Zone, the. 00:42:15,699 S8: No disturb. 00:42:16,460 S10: Zone. 00:42:17,179 S7: Okay. There's an arbor Vita tree sitting right at that corner, right where you're pointing that I really liked. And my wife and I had originally, we were going to kill the tree and make the stairs go down there, and, uh, I convinced her to let me keep the tree and make the stairs go out the side. So that's why the stairs are pointed that direction. They were originally supposed to come back straight toward the house. The original deck on this property had stairs. You're not seeing what I bought. There were appendages on the house. There was an oil tank shed, um, on the south side of the house, right where the, uh, I don't know. It's at the. 00:43:00,079 S10: Show. 00:43:00,320 S7: Where that line's going through, just to the left of where those red stairs are. There was a big building with an oil tank in it that I. I got rid of the oil tank. I tore the building off. It was external to the foundation. Um, the original plan we had submitted had a big addition coming out of the front of the building, which we abandoned due to budgetary considerations. If you go back to the original original, which I don't even know which version of this thing we're looking at, there was a big addition going to stick out of the front of 140 toward where the garage is. We abandoned that, and instead we put a very small deck on the front. The original house had a deck on the front. So, I mean, if we go from what I bought, what you're seeing is an interim drawing here. That was my proposal for what we wanted to do. But if you would go back to the original, like the lot with all the stuff on it, there were sheds all over the place there, you know, there was all kinds of stuff that isn't represented on this drawing. And so we're kind of, we're, we're we're contextually a little bit out of sync here in that what we started with isn't this this is what I had proposed as an idea in 2020, as a new homeowner buying this property with these dilapidated buildings that were falling down. And what am I going to do? And so the original work with with Hancock was an idea. And when the idea morphed over time, I had asked Bert Cummings, Brian Colvin, should I be doing something here? And I was told by them in writing, you're good. 00:44:58,630 S10: I don't know who to talk to. 00:44:59,670 S7: If those guys, if those guys aren't the right guys to answer that question, I'm just a little knucklehead from Minnesota. This is all new to me, and I'm trying to learn how the process works. And these guys went, you're okay. So I proceeded. 00:45:15,909 S10: Okay. Thank you. 00:45:18,670 S2: Go ahead. 00:45:19,630 S1: Are there any other comments? Otherwise we should have you have some other comments? Virginia. 00:45:25,710 S2: Just a couple. Just okay. Sure. And that is it. Um, when you file with the commission, you file what you want to do. And we don't think, oh, this is what he thinks he wants to do, and he might change a little bit here or there, that that's not the way you present things to the commission, because we can't. Okay. What you might decide in the future without you coming back to us. 00:45:49,849 S10: So that's why I called the coordinator. 00:45:52,449 S7: And said, should I be doing something now? 00:45:54,889 S2: And if you look in your other conditions, it says to talk to the commission. 00:45:58,489 S7: I'm not a lawyer. I'm sorry. 00:46:01,929 S2: I'm not the one. 00:46:04,849 S7: Now, this is here. What are we looking? 00:46:06,809 S8: Who's this? 00:46:07,610 S10: Is the screen. 00:46:08,730 S8: I wanted to put this up real quick. This is what the approved plan was. That's referenced in the order of conditions. So I just wanted to highlight these are the expansions that Bill is referencing that were not completed. I just wanted to throw it up there so everyone could see and compare to the other plan that I had up was the as build plan. Um, and so I just wanted to because I know that some of the commission members were not on the commission during the hearing process. So again, I just wanted to share this for everyone's edification. 00:46:40,349 S7: This this looks familiar. Um, I remember this. 00:46:44,710 S8: I didn't mean to interrupt you. I'm sorry. Virginia. 00:46:46,989 S7: There were a lot of a lot of things that we had put on the plan that we didn't actually do. 00:46:54,389 S10: That's not unusual. 00:46:57,349 S8: If I may, um, I think that it would be beneficial for us to maybe open a discussion about how we could move forward and come to a place where you all are happy with the site. Um, maybe we could discuss that shoreline, um, remediation. Um, so that we could move forward. 00:47:23,070 S10: Question about. 00:47:23,670 S7: That. Caitlin. 00:47:24,869 S8: Sure. 00:47:25,630 S7: What are. What are we talking about? Remediation. We never touched a molecule of the shoreline. 00:47:33,210 S10: So you. 00:47:33,849 S8: You didn't. But it was, um, referenced in the. 00:47:37,929 S10: I think. 00:47:38,369 S7: That reference was, uh, intended to repair any damage that was done. 00:47:45,449 S8: So it was actually part of the waiver request. So it was kind of an offering to keep the commission happy to approve for this work to take place in the no disturb zone. 00:47:54,570 S1: I would like to clarify, it wasn't to keep the commission happy. It was to fulfill the waiver requirements in the bylaw that the functions and values of the wetlands are preserved. Mhm. Wasn't to make us happy. 00:48:12,210 S10: So does that mean. 00:48:13,369 S7: Planting something along the. 00:48:15,170 S10: The slope. 00:48:17,050 S7: What is remediation look like. 00:48:20,010 S1: It's actually not remediation. What. The word that was used was ecological restoration or ecological. 00:48:27,989 S8: Apologies for using the wrong word. I'm sorry. 00:48:30,989 S10: Um, yeah. Me too. I didn't. 00:48:35,070 S7: I'm trying to learn here. So? So there is natural vegetation. It's a steep grade. If you actually go to the site, it's about a six foot drop right along where the water is. And it was naturally, there's all kinds of weeds and plants and things that grow there, and not a single molecule that was disturbed. So what should we be adding to that to, uh, whatever the term is, restore, remediate, whatever. What what should I do? 00:49:11,869 S1: Well, actually, there's a lake in Pond Guide that is out there. And chapter four talks about the actions that homeowners should take. And on page 37 they lay out a sample of what a wetland mitigation would look like or ecological restoration would look like. And I think that that's a good place to start. 00:49:37,559 S7: So we should plant some things along that bank. 00:49:40,719 S1: And but not just some plants, plants that are native. And we can provide you the link to the lake and pond guide that's been prepared for the state on how to protect your resource area. And it also goes into what homeowners should be doing. And we also have a list of native vegetation that can help guide you on what we would like to see to protect those resource areas. And we'd also like to look at the impervious cover area and try to match it up with what existed, um, preexisting on the site. Maybe take a look at removing things. I don't know what the concrete ramp is. I'm just looking at the plan boldly. I know there's concrete steps. There's other ways to provide steps that would be more pervious. Um, the gravel driveway maybe could be narrowed and vegetated there. So in other words, naturalize what is not built. So that could absorb a lot of the stormwater and act as a best management practice for that site. So we'd like to get that understanding of the impervious ness that's there, try to match it up as closely with what existed beforehand. One thing, in my opinion, should be done, and if it's off significantly, I would consider seriously removing some of the concrete things that are on that property and making anything you can pervious. 00:51:15,340 S7: They've been there. 00:51:16,059 S10: For. 00:51:16,619 S7: 50 to 60 years. 00:51:19,820 S1: Well, I don't think. 00:51:20,539 S10: They're historic. 00:51:21,260 S1: Are. 00:51:21,460 S10: They I. 00:51:22,679 S7: I inherited them. Um, Donnie and Diane Thompson were the previous owners of the property, in case anybody knows them. And much of this stuff was done by them, and I just bought it. 00:51:42,039 S1: Would that be helpful, that information? 00:51:45,559 S7: Um, yeah. I'm on the Tobacco Lake Watershed Association. I'm Dave Lash, and, um, you know, uh, Sue McLaughlin. Yeah, yeah, they're my friends. 00:51:59,079 S10: Yeah. And. 00:52:01,159 S1: Well, we haven't decided how we want to proceed, but. And that's sort of my vision of. 00:52:06,519 S10: It, I guess. 00:52:07,199 S7: Tell tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it. 00:52:10,000 S10: Oh. 00:52:11,519 S1: Yes. Good. 00:52:12,639 S10: Bethany. 00:52:14,199 S4: Um, Alicia and I, this is the. I'm the newer conservation agent. Like, the fifth one of this project, I guess. Um, in my opinion, this is solely my opinion. After reviewing like spent most of my days in Hamilton the past two weeks reviewing this, um, notice of intent. Like, I feel like the best course of action. In my opinion. It is like an amended order of conditions because I feel like it's not like so far off or a whole new notice of intent. They can do an amended order of conditions. They already have the as built plan, and they can work with us with an ecological restoration and with the impervious calculations. And I feel like we can move forward with the good steps altogether. But this is my opinion. 00:53:10,420 S1: Thank you. Bethany, if if there are no other comments, does anyone want to make a motion? And I can't see Denise now and I can't see Sandy. So if you're raising your hand, you'll have to speak up. 00:53:22,679 S5: Okay. I'm here, and I would make a recommendation that at, um, to follow Bethany's suggestion and have her work with the applicant in terms of amending the order of conditions, um, to, uh, to address the, the changes and to offset some of the changes. 00:53:47,599 S1: Thank you. Um, is there a second? 00:53:51,519 S13: Jeremy foster. I'll second. 00:53:53,960 S10: Okay. 00:53:54,679 S1: Um, if there are no other comments, I guess we can take a vote on that. Or if there are comments on that, a motion on the floor to amend the order of people feel differently. Let me know. 00:54:08,960 S1: Okay. Can take a vote on that then. 00:54:12,760 S10: Um. 00:54:13,199 S3: Sorry, Nancy. Could you just clarify what we're voting on. 00:54:17,500 S10: Okay, I. 00:54:18,099 S3: Guess. 00:54:18,380 S10: Voting. 00:54:19,019 S3: Early. 00:54:19,420 S10: On. 00:54:19,940 S3: On seeing where we are. 00:54:22,099 S1: Okay. The choices are to give us a certificate of compliance. Deny the certificate of compliance for non-compliance. Give a partial certificate of compliance or an amended order of conditions or a new order of conditions. Those are the options available to the Commission. I believe Bethany circulated some information on that. So the commission has that, and there's a motion on the floor to request an amended order of conditions so that we can proceed with the changes and get that clarified fully, to understand the impervious ness and to fulfill the commitment that was made in the waiver for an ecological restoration and address the issues that we've discussed today. 00:55:13,059 S3: I'm with you up until the last part because we have to provide the amended order of conditions, I think. 00:55:22,429 S2: So they have to apply for it. 00:55:24,230 S10: Now they. 00:55:25,070 S4: Can apply for an amended order of conditions. 00:55:27,670 S3: But we don't have one to vote on I guess, as. 00:55:30,550 S10: No no, no. 00:55:32,550 S1: Okay. 00:55:33,150 S10: Requesting one. 00:55:35,070 S4: We're not issuing one. You're not issuing one. You're requesting that they have one. 00:55:42,110 S1: That they file an amended order. 00:55:43,510 S4: They file an amended order of conditions. 00:55:47,150 S3: Well that's fine file four. That's something we have to vote on. But if that's something we have to vote on, fine. 00:55:54,670 S1: Oh I don't know. Some of these Robert's rules get to, um. 00:55:59,630 S2: If you do. 00:56:00,389 S1: But I think where this is a. 00:56:02,949 S10: If. 00:56:03,469 S7: You don't know, imagine what I feel. 00:56:06,590 S1: Well, Robert's Rules are just beyond the what? We know the wetlands issues better than Robert's Rules. 00:56:12,530 S10: Yeah. 00:56:13,130 S1: All right. But why don't we just vote on it and make sure people feel that that's the right option, just because there are other options. Jeremy Foster. 00:56:22,610 S13: I. 00:56:24,650 S1: Denise Kelly. 00:56:26,010 S5: I. 00:56:27,170 S1: Virginia cookson. 00:56:28,289 S10: Hi. 00:56:29,690 S1: Sandy coating. 00:56:31,690 S3: Hi. 00:56:32,730 S1: And Nancy baker hi. 00:56:36,650 S1: Okay. Bill and Caitlin, feel free to talk to Bethany if you have any questions about this discussion tonight. And we'll work with you and get this, um, move this forward. All right. 00:56:52,809 S10: Thank you. Yeah. 00:56:53,409 S7: I think you'll be impressed at how nice it actually turned out. 00:56:57,130 S4: Oh, they are cute houses, I will tell you that. 00:57:01,809 S1: Uh, well, I'm glad you're happy. They're good. 00:57:04,369 S10: Oh, Virginia. 00:57:05,449 S7: I was happier before the meeting, but I'll get over it. 00:57:10,409 S2: I was just wondering whether, um, uh, Hancock would be doing it with them because they they obviously know how to do the, um, the project. And they can they also, of course, can reference the same information that you gave. Um. 00:57:28,510 S7: Yes. They will be doing it. I, I've already paid them an astounding amount of money and I will pay them in another astounding amount of money. 00:57:38,869 S10: Well. 00:57:40,269 S4: Bill. Caitlin. Joe, just please email me. I'm very happy to help you all. 00:57:46,230 S8: Great. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for your time and for working through this with us. 00:57:52,429 S10: Thanks, everybody. Thank you very much. 00:57:54,510 S4: Have a great night. 00:57:58,389 S1: Okay. Um, we have the third item here. Maybe we should all take a deep breath. Uh, I know I need to take a deep breath. Notice of intent for mast EP file number 17206633. 00:58:15,210 S1: Spengler way or is it drive? I don't know which it is. It is mass. 00:58:23,369 S4: Drive. It is drive. Um, Mark and I had a we're like, what is it? And we had to go to the assessor's office and, um, figure that out, but it is drive. Yes. 00:58:35,849 S1: Okay. So I was right. Okay. All right. I did find that. 00:58:39,849 S2: What? It's drive. 00:58:41,929 S1: Yeah. It's not. 00:58:43,210 S4: Spengler drive. Even though the notice of intent application. It was three Spengler way. 00:58:49,250 S10: But it. 00:58:50,489 S4: Is drive. 00:58:52,210 S1: We had the wrong address. 00:58:55,369 S2: The wrong address. 00:58:57,130 S10: Okay. 00:58:57,610 S4: Um, I request. No, this was, um, to review the order of conditions, like, altogether, but it's. I'm having trouble loading it. So review the minutes I guess, while I try to pull it up. 00:59:13,630 S1: Oh, okay. Alrighty. Sounds good. The minutes. So does anybody. I hope everyone reviewed. I shouldn't say did anybody. I'm sure you all did. The minutes from two 2526 and 212. Oh is it two 2526 and two 1226. Those are. 00:59:31,150 S10: The. 00:59:31,469 S4: Oh no, that was a typo. That was I discovered that was two, 24, 25 2026 and 212 2025. It was a missing minutes. Yeah. That you discovered. 00:59:45,869 S1: I saw this on the menu. I thought I reviewed 20, 25 minutes. 00:59:49,670 S10: Oh, it. 00:59:50,510 S4: Was missing minutes that Alicia and I discovered together because it was recorded my first day on in Hamilton. Um, on, like, Mark's account. So it's not the usual zoom account. 01:00:05,280 S1: Okay, so that was these the only missing ones? Are these the only ones that are missing? 01:00:10,480 S2: Okay, so this is supposed to be 25. Okay. 01:00:13,800 S10: Yeah. 01:00:15,480 S2: When I tried to access it. Um, okay. And so, um. 01:00:21,519 S1: Did people review 2025 or 2026? Or maybe we need to extend this? I don't know. Now I'm confused. 01:00:30,840 S5: I, I did read them both. Um, you you weren't, uh, you were present at the 2025. Right. Um, Nancy. 01:00:42,599 S1: Um, I, I did. 01:00:43,920 S5: To the best of my memory. They look right. But it was a long time ago. 01:00:49,119 S10: Yeah. 01:00:49,760 S1: I know Jeremy. 01:00:52,719 S13: Jeremy Foster. I also read both. I'm not sure I can vote on the earlier one just because I wasn't on the commission at that time, but, um. Yeah, I did read both. 01:01:02,519 S1: Thank you. Sandy. Any thoughts? You okay? 01:01:08,340 S3: Same as Denise. I read that older one. It sounded. 01:01:13,780 S10: Like. 01:01:16,019 S3: A year ago, so. 01:01:18,219 S10: Yeah. 01:01:18,699 S5: Yeah. So I'll make a motion to approve. I'll make a motion to approve the meeting minutes of February 12th, 2025. 01:01:29,900 S10: Thank you. 01:01:31,579 S1: Okay. And we'll just. 01:01:32,780 S10: Do a. 01:01:33,579 S3: Second. 01:01:35,219 S1: Okay. I'm not going to do a full roll call. Is there anybody opposed? I'll ask that. 01:01:42,420 S2: No no no no. Abstain. 01:01:44,179 S1: Okay. Virginia abstains. The rest of us. Are you going to abstain to Jeremy because you weren't here? 01:01:49,820 S13: I think I was saying yes. 01:01:51,380 S10: Yeah. 01:01:51,860 S2: It was only five. I could have reviewed it, but it said 26. 01:01:55,860 S1: Okay. I read if I read them, they seemed okay to me. So I think we still have a quorum in favor. It's Denise, Sandy and myself. 01:02:07,280 S4: And there's a 20, 26 minutes. 01:02:14,760 S4: There was the 2026. 01:02:17,599 S10: Yeah. Right. 01:02:19,000 S1: Oh, okay. I thought we were approving both of them. Now I'm really confused. 01:02:24,280 S10: No, I. 01:02:24,480 S5: Was just doing because I didn't think everybody could approve both. So I just did the first one. Um. 01:02:30,960 S10: Okay. 01:02:31,719 S5: And the second. Um, I will also make a motion to approve the meeting minutes of February 25th, 2026. 01:02:43,400 S3: Andy cotton second. 01:02:46,440 S10: Okay. 01:02:47,199 S1: Anyone opposed? Anyone not review them? 01:02:51,480 S2: Uh, me? It's that 2025. I, I couldn't get it to show on my. 01:02:56,719 S1: Could you review the 2026 one? 01:02:58,920 S10: No. 01:02:59,360 S2: Well, because it was said 26. If I knew it said 25, I simply would have gone back to my minutes. 01:03:04,619 S5: But you were. You weren't present at the 20. The February 25th, 2026 meeting. Virginia. So. 01:03:13,019 S2: In fact, I wrote that down somewhere. Yes. You're right. Anyways, I abstained. 01:03:19,260 S1: Okay. 01:03:22,500 S1: Maybe I should call roll. Jeremy foster. 01:03:25,460 S13: Hi. 01:03:27,380 S1: Sandy. Coddington. 01:03:28,860 S3: Hi. 01:03:29,860 S1: Denise. Kelly. 01:03:31,019 S10: Hi. 01:03:32,380 S1: Nancy baker. I, Virginia Cookson. 01:03:34,940 S2: Abstain. 01:03:36,179 S10: Okay, good. 01:03:37,340 S1: So there. It's clear for the record, on new business. I guess we potentially have a new commissioner. 01:03:45,900 S4: Yeah. 01:03:46,260 S1: Joining us. Going to be introduced next time. Bethany, do you want to explain? 01:03:50,780 S4: Her name is Valerie Peck. She seems very excited to join. I gave her all the information, gave her the links to MCC and to our bylaw and regulations, and she's going to enter. She's a retired realtor and she is going to introduce herself in the next meeting on April 8th. Hooray! 01:04:14,079 S10: Yeah. Well. 01:04:15,159 S2: What's your last name again? 01:04:17,000 S4: Peck. 01:04:18,320 S10: Okay. Thank you. 01:04:19,960 S4: All right. 01:04:21,360 S10: Long time. Great fun. 01:04:24,239 S2: You wish. 01:04:24,920 S10: Like. 01:04:29,679 S1: I skipped over enforcement orders. I don't know why. Um, just. We missed it. 01:04:35,079 S4: Yes. 01:04:36,000 S1: Is there anything new to report on that, Bethany? 01:04:38,679 S4: No, I try to call. No one answered. Um, so Alicia and I did mail out a letter, and so hopefully they respond. Certified mail return receipt. 01:04:53,679 S10: Okay. 01:04:54,159 S1: So we'll keep you posted. 01:04:56,329 S4: Yes. So I'm going to pull up the order. Draft order of conditions. Because Nancy and I were discussing that the commission should be familiarized with what we send out to the potential, um, to the, um, applicants once you guys approve an order of conditions. So I'm just going to pull that up now, if you're okay with that. Did you just give me a second? 01:05:32,090 S1: This one didn't have any special conditions, did it? 01:05:34,329 S4: No, no, it did not. I know Denise just saw, like, an order of conditions because I just mailed it to her. 01:05:42,809 S5: Um, mine came late, but that's okay. 01:05:46,969 S10: Jeez. 01:05:47,409 S4: Yes, I did mail it to her. Um, and I just got the slip back today, actually. Um, so this is an order of conditions, as we're all familiar with the Wetlands Protection Act form five. Um, it's an order of conditions. Like the other people, we request an amended order of conditions so they would click this box. Um, this is for three Spengler drive. Not way. Um, I wrote drive because that's what is on the assessor and registry of deeds. That's what they have. Um, and just like the project location, the registry of deed books so they can record it. The site approved plan. And you always write the final revision date. And this is the findings like public water supply. It wasn't because it's a septic tanks. You do private water supply. Obviously prevention of pollutions. They're not any salt marsh. So no shellfish. 01:06:50,030 S10: It's a do you do you. 01:06:51,750 S1: Can I ask you a question, Bethany? Do you feel that in yourself? Of this? 01:06:55,730 S10: Yes. 01:06:56,210 S1: Going back to that table, can you go back to that? 01:06:59,250 S10: Yeah. 01:06:59,610 S1: You you fill that out yourself. 01:07:02,010 S10: Mhm. 01:07:03,210 S1: Okay. 01:07:05,929 S5: Because it would be different for each thing. So it. 01:07:08,929 S10: Has. 01:07:09,210 S4: Yeah. So like say we're in man. Say I'm in Manchester by the sea. If someone like there was harbor dredging recently I would click like all these boxes because there's fisheries involved. There's a shellfish involved. But since they're not involved but there's obviously storm damage prevention. We want flood control. Those are kind of boilerplate ones here because protection of wildlife habitat is like our main priority. 01:07:37,969 S1: Yeah, there's nothing there for rare and endangered species or anything particular. It's just pretty generic. 01:07:44,409 S4: Yes. 01:07:46,489 S1: Is there a place to put that information in? 01:07:49,329 S4: Um, you could in like special conditions. This is just like the state form. And I don't know if you can really edit like the state form itself like that. 01:08:02,710 S1: Yeah. And it doesn't speak to our bylaw very well either, you know. 01:08:06,630 S4: Right. This is a state border. 01:08:08,949 S1: Yeah. 01:08:09,989 S4: And it was like 50 because of the tree. Um, and this is all coastal. So we skipped this page because we're in Hamilton. There's no stream crossings and expires in three years. So 2029. 01:08:29,829 S4: The file number. And these are the boilerplate general conditions that the state provides. And this is for every single order of conditions project. 01:08:41,590 S4: Does anyone have any questions so far. 01:08:45,310 S1: Where do they tell them to apply for the certificate of compliance. We've had so much trouble getting those in. 01:08:52,449 S10: Right. 01:08:53,250 S1: I'm thinking about the other one that we voted last time, which was crazy. The poor applicant didn't even know what it was. 01:09:01,369 S4: It says here it doesn't say when, but it says like number 12. Completion of work described here in. The applicant shall submit and shows the keyword. Submit a request for Certificate of Compliance WPA form AA to the Conservation Commission. 01:09:21,970 S1: We need to emphasize that more. I think 30 days, maybe after completion of the project may not be doable, but some reasonable period of time. It shouldn't be four years later or three years later or six years later. These are silly. We saw one that, um. 01:09:39,609 S10: From. 01:09:40,170 S1: When I was on the commission, just maybe 4 or 5 months ago. 01:09:45,010 S10: Silly The. 01:09:46,390 S2: Stick change means make sure they have to get a significant flight before they can, you know, get mortgages and stuff and. 01:09:53,750 S10: Sell their house. Really? 01:09:54,630 S5: Recently the sale. 01:09:55,989 S10: Yeah. 01:09:56,270 S2: That's why everybody is is filing it. And it also explains why they're finally that it's real old because it wasn't. 01:10:06,229 S10: Applied in. 01:10:07,710 S4: Manchester. I literally saw one from 88 recently. 01:10:13,829 S10: Yeah. 01:10:14,029 S1: That's that's got to change. 01:10:15,550 S2: I mean I bet there were old ones in your in your own file cabinet. 01:10:20,829 S4: Yeah. It's because people. 01:10:23,789 S1: Have to dig for information like we did with this last one because it's so old and then you're. Yeah. You know, it's not not reasonable to expect, expect volunteers to have to go to that trouble. Can we get somehow change that or make it a constant special condition? 01:10:42,430 S4: We can probably add it to a special condition. 01:10:47,039 S2: Well, it does say something about you need to file for it, but it doesn't have a time on it. 01:10:51,960 S4: Well, the time is before it expires. 01:10:56,239 S1: Before the permit expires. 01:10:58,439 S4: Which is three years. 01:11:00,319 S1: Well, maybe we can emphasize that. 01:11:02,800 S4: Yes. In a single family? Yeah. 01:11:06,000 S1: At your peril. If you don't apply for it in three years, we may request a new notice of intent. 01:11:11,560 S10: This has happened. 01:11:12,520 S2: A lot for us now because of the, you know, the ruling put in and the rest of our houses that are showing that an awful lot of them have a dangling certificate of compliance. 01:11:24,760 S4: It's not because they do their project and then they're like, all done. They don't think to close it out. Yeah. 01:11:33,479 S10: Mhm. 01:11:33,760 S4: So a single family home is exempt from Massachusetts stormwater standards. That is something that the state has Decided. 01:11:45,340 S4: It goes to the Planning Board. Stormwater regulations go to the planning Board. If the property is more than an acre, like the disturbance is more than an acre. That's what Alicia and I were discovering today about. 01:11:57,939 S10: That's true. 01:12:01,500 S4: And this is about stormwater. So we can skip. And here's where the bylaw comes in. Is there a bylaw applicable? And I say yes. Hamilton Conservation Commission in a is for denial because it can't meet the bylaw conditions and B is for it can meet the bylaw conditions. So it's approved under the bylaw. And chapter 17. And I see C attached for special conditions. If you need more space for additional conditions. So I always do see attached because there's pages of stuff. Yes. Virginia. 01:12:41,479 S10: Um, we. 01:12:43,760 S2: We just started using that part of the, um, State Farm some time ago. Usually it refers to that we have a farm for, uh, our own, um, by law order conditions. Um, when Brian Collier was with us, he had suggested that we could just use what's on the back of the order conditions and generally, instead of seeing attaches, generally says that the order conditions under the, uh, EPA order conditions will be the same as ours. Uh, for the, um, for a by law and I, I've a problem with that because that means there are two other conditions that need to be recorded, and you have to pay for each one. Okay. And by having it on this, they only file one order conditions in one form. So the only finding half of what is was required, uh, all along. Uh, that was the problem when they wanted to address this. It does simplify things. Obviously, I said, I don't see how you can do that, but so. 01:13:55,539 S10: I did. 01:13:56,180 S4: Manchester and Carlisle. We always just reference the bylaw on the state form. We never had a different form. 01:14:04,140 S2: So you only have them. You only have them file the one order conditions in one filing. 01:14:09,739 S4: Exactly, yes. 01:14:12,340 S10: We with other towns a lot of money. Okay. 01:14:16,819 S2: That's why. 01:14:18,619 S10: Your names. 01:14:20,300 S4: Appeals. Because there's a ten day appeal period. So that's why I wait to issue an order of conditions in case some of butter or someone has the right to appeal. So you wait ten days? Yep. Recording information that is filled out by the applicant. Owner of the property. Doo doo doo doo. Instructions how to record and send money to DEP. And here are the special conditions page. Yes. Virginia. Are you going to say something? 01:14:51,199 S2: Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, we usually say at a meeting for some people, they're in a hurry to get started. And we always say, if you start sooner than you. 01:15:02,239 S10: Mhm. 01:15:02,760 S2: There's a time when there's a ten day window for appeal. So if you start earlier you're doing it on your own peril. 01:15:10,720 S4: Yeah. That's what I warn people as well when they're like I want to do this now. It's like. 01:15:16,439 S10: Well you didn't just. 01:15:18,039 S4: Have a right for a ten day appeal period. This is the special conditions for three Spengler Way. This is what it looks like. Here's the file number. And. 01:15:33,239 S4: It basically is about. Their project. 01:15:40,409 S4: Um. Oh, it will expire in 2029. 01:15:47,449 S4: Commission orders that all work shall be performed in accordance with the said conditions. Anyone have any questions? 01:15:57,289 S4: Nancy? Anyone? 01:16:00,369 S10: I think. 01:16:01,289 S1: I think given given what we heard from Mr. Howe, um, that he didn't need this age, his special conditions were right after the state conditions in that order. I'm troubled by the fact that it just says see attached. I think there needs to be some more notification. These conditions in the attachment must be complied with as well. 01:16:30,130 S10: Okay. 01:16:31,170 S1: You know, some way to direct the applicant to this information. And I don't know, maybe I know you're doing so much spoon feeding in these folks and we're getting materials so late, which is really not fair for volunteers, as we've discussed many times. But there's some way to communicate to these people that, you know, this needs to be complete, and they need to have addressed all of these things for a certificate of compliance and really paid attention to what's in the orders. 01:17:01,949 S10: But I agree, I don't. 01:17:04,109 S1: I know you do well in Virginia. 01:17:07,149 S2: That's one of the reasons that we would not accept filing unless when it comes in, it gets it gets checked out that everything is in there that we need. And if there isn't, you of course have to call them us. Tell them that they need more information, and the time that's going to stop that 21 day window doesn't start until you receive a completed filing. So, uh, that that should help a little bit if. 01:17:37,170 S10: Well. 01:17:37,970 S4: Virginia. Um, I've spoken to like this is like my Manchester knowledge. I've spoken to Depp about the 21 day, um, thing, and 21 days starts when there's just an administratively complete state form and follows the WPA guidelines. That's when it starts. So that's why it's so hard to try to get information from these people in a timely manner. 01:18:05,529 S2: Why are they still, I believe the application tells them that they need a plan and stuff. 01:18:11,729 S4: Yeah, a plan, yeah. 01:18:12,770 S10: Of course. Yeah, yeah, but. 01:18:15,970 S2: A plan you have a plan has to have certain things on it. Um, we don't tell them because we figure it's sort of self-evident. Yeah, you need the information and. 01:18:28,770 S10: Right. 01:18:29,609 S2: So you can't start it until then. 01:18:32,789 S4: Alicia, you want to say something? 01:18:36,829 S9: Yeah, I had a question. This is mostly for Bethany, but all of you might have input to I. Since starting here and working with Bethany, I've noticed, obviously, you guys have two, that there's a lot of confusion about the step by step process for a lot of these applications. And so I was wondering if it would be helpful for me and Bethany to work on some kind of like resident guide. So if anybody's starting to apply to a project, maybe they have. 01:19:06,470 S10: We have a. 01:19:07,029 S9: Flowchart or something or, you know, step one. And here, here's what to do before you start. Here's what to do after you finish post construction. Here's what, uh, restoration really is, you know, have a have a directory of restoration or remediation tactics and best management practices, kind of like a, a user guide, almost just because I feel like we're getting so many questions because they send them to the planning department, too, because there's just so much confusion about where. 01:19:37,569 S4: To go. 01:19:38,250 S9: Where to go, where to find things, who who should be answering questions like, why was Mary Allen getting a lot of these questions related to conservation? That's kind of unclear. So we're just trying to streamline this a little bit and make it a little easier for everyone. So I was wondering if you had any thoughts about that. 01:19:59,090 S10: I just. 01:20:02,569 S1: Have comments. 01:20:04,369 S2: Yes. 01:20:05,329 S3: Sounds like a good idea. 01:20:06,770 S2: Go ahead. 01:20:07,810 S1: Okay. Sandy, I heard you say something. I'm sorry. I didn't hear all that I said. 01:20:13,569 S3: It sounds like a good idea. 01:20:15,930 S1: Oh, okay. 01:20:17,250 S10: All right. 01:20:18,210 S1: Thanks. 01:20:19,649 S2: I know, I agree, I think it's a good idea. It's more comprehensive than what we have had before. We did have at least a set of directions on what was needed in order to get a filing accepted, and it doesn't get used in. So I don't don't even show where it is now. Should be on a computer with other forms that we have, if we can find that. Okay. 01:20:43,420 S10: But yeah, I was thinking. 01:20:44,619 S9: There could be. Oh, sorry. Keep going. I didn't. 01:20:47,500 S2: The other thing is that if somebody's applying to the planning board, then they should go to the planning board to give it to them. And if they're planning to conservation, they come to the conservation to get it. I mean, you know, it's generally not one person that knows everything except possibly the building inspector. He has a checklist made only several years ago, uh, listing, um, all the all the, um, uh, departments. And he gives them they have to take one of those and go to each department and have it checked off. And when they're all checked off, he goes to the building Inspector. He can do stuff. So, um. 01:21:29,800 S10: Just. 01:21:30,600 S2: I'm just saying that they can't expect somebody complaining to tell them how the things work in another department. The other department can't do you. 01:21:39,960 S10: Right. 01:21:41,960 S9: Well, it's the kind of thing we could, even if it was just a link to a website format, a separate site or a separate section, separate page or something like that of the government website. And, you know, include, you know, you say, here's step one, and then you maybe have a screenshot of the answer if it was planning or you have the requests for or a certificate of compliance, stuff like that. You have visual so people know what they're looking at, what to expect. We say, oh, we want a plan stamped by an engineer. What does that look like? Where does the stamp come? What aspects do we need? You know, we need date. We need who? Who planned it? That kind of thing. So we're not. So we hopefully are not getting, you know, multiple folded things that are scanned in and you can't read them or they're written in pen. And so it's just kind of hard to. I know it's so hard on Bethany to keep getting back to these people, especially when they're not responsive because there's just a clear miscommunication. 01:22:45,300 S10: Sandy. 01:22:46,340 S1: Got your hands. 01:22:47,140 S10: Up. 01:22:47,619 S3: Yeah. Um, it occurs to me that maybe there's an education issue here with some of the other coordinators. So if a homeowner goes to the planning board and says, do I need to do anything else, they may be thinking just with the blinders of what the planning board needs to do. And they say, oh, you're all set. And the homeowner says, oh, I'm all set. So maybe it's an education that they say, you're all set with the planning board, but make sure that you're all set with everybody else too. 01:23:24,359 S10: Mhm. 01:23:26,039 S1: And it becomes particularly dicey with the issue of stormwater where conservation commissions have certain responsibilities and requirements for stormwater. And the Planning Board has the regulations. So we we need to sort through that. 01:23:46,640 S4: I think it helps that Mark and Alicia and I are more like conjoined as like a land use department. So I can know, like what's going on in the planning world. So in case there is something conservation wise like Alicia can tell me because she sees those planning board applications. 01:24:11,000 S9: And I'm hoping that's something. That's something I've been talking with. Uh, Karin, our, uh, town or town clerk, and we've been trying to talk about finding some way to make the whole government a little more collaborative, because, I mean, obviously, it's not helpful when we have the building department in another side of town and we can't collaborate with what's going on. Some of the zoning stuff falls to them. Some of it falls to the planning board, and it's unclear where the responsibilities lie, what direction the applications take. And so we're hoping there'll be a little more cohesion when we move into the town hall. So that way we can at least coordinate easier with people like the assessors or if there's any financial things that come up. But it it really I think it's the kind of thing where we need to have some kind of meeting or something like that, and that's not your responsibility, but it's just something we've been trying to float out there just to try to make things, make the communication a little more clear, because it's just it's not at this point. 01:25:15,100 S10: I think it doesn't help. Yeah. 01:25:16,779 S4: The building department is in a different building. Um, and I've personally never met the building inspector, ever. 01:25:24,680 S5: So I'm just gonna quickly interject. I think, uh, Bill Howe, who is still on on the meeting. Hi, Bill. Sent in a in a chat saying, you know, this is what he's trying to do. However, going through the emails, I think Mary Ellen is usually pretty good. And she's probably the better contact, you know, being the admin for building. And she did suggest. Um, Bill, I think if you go back through your old emails, um, you had reached out to con com because Mary Ellen had suggested that you run things by them, the changes that you dropped off with them. So I think as long as we can get Mary Ellen and and the building inspector, just remind them, make sure that you, you know, if there was anything that you required from us originally. Any changes need to be run by. But generally I think Mary Ellen's pretty good at that. 01:26:23,850 S2: Does. 01:26:26,850 S4: The building permit site to issue a building permit? If there's any like, wetlands near there, I have to, like, review it. So usually like 18 old cart way. Didn't have any, um, road I mean, didn't have conservation commission, but I messaged them through the building permit app to say that you had to file because you're near a wetland. So the building permit app where people submit things to be built, I review to make sure that there's like no wetlands near their project. 01:27:01,090 S10: Yeah. That's something. Yeah. 01:27:04,170 S2: You see. 01:27:08,569 S1: Any further comments? 01:27:13,109 S10: If. 01:27:13,630 S1: If not, I think we've, um. Um, come to the end of our meeting. We have another meeting scheduled on April 8th, 2026. I hope everybody will be able to join us and. 01:27:28,829 S10: A new. 01:27:29,149 S4: Potential member. Yeah. 01:27:31,109 S10: Yeah. 01:27:31,909 S1: Meet Valerie. 01:27:34,510 S10: Hey, Joey. 01:27:37,069 S2: Yeah. Tell them that you double this salary every year. That's what I used to tell them I was chair. I'm doubling everybody's salary from 0 to 0. 01:27:48,630 S2: Oh, the new applicant might think it's funny. 01:27:53,149 S5: Okay. So, um, can I make a motion to adjourn the meeting? 01:27:57,949 S2: Second. 01:27:59,470 S1: Okay. All in favor? 01:28:01,829 S10: Aye. 01:28:03,750 S1: Okay. We'll look forward to seeing you on the 8th of April. 01:28:07,470 S10: Okay. Thank you. 01:28:08,270 S1: Thanks so much, everybody. Thanks. Have a nice night. Bye bye. 01:28:10,989 S10: Thank you.