00:03:47,567 S1: Hey, how's it going? 00:03:52,100 S2: Good. Okay. It's online. It's 7:04 p.m. and I'm calling the March 9th, 2026 Hamilton Planning Board meeting to order. Uh, first order of business is roll call, especially since we have some people who are appearing via zoom. So when I call your name, would you please indicate that you're present? Pat Norton. 00:04:18,868 S1: Present. 00:04:19,667 S2: Jonathan. 00:04:20,267 S3: Poor Jonathan, poor present. 00:04:22,567 S2: Uh. Emil Dahlquist. 00:04:24,167 S4: Emil. Dahlquist. Present. 00:04:25,667 S2: Darcy. Dale. 00:04:26,567 S5: Darcy. Dale. Present. 00:04:27,868 S2: Beth Herr. 00:04:29,167 S5: Present. 00:04:31,200 S2: Uh, Matt Hamill is not here. Jeff. Austin. 00:04:34,100 S6: Jeff. Austin. Present. 00:04:35,367 S2: Marty Crouch present. And we'll hope to see Bill Wheaton shortly. So I know, for the benefit of the public that this meeting is being recorded. So, uh, the first item on our agenda is, uh, approval of minutes. Do I have a motion to approve the minutes from February 24th? 00:04:57,267 S3: I have a couple comments before we make a motion. 00:05:00,067 S2: Yes, I was going to have the motion and a second and then a discussion. 00:05:04,000 S3: Okay, great. So let's do that. 00:05:05,567 S5: I move that we approve the minutes from January. I'm sorry. From February 24th, 2026. 00:05:11,901 S2: Do I have a second? 00:05:13,000 S3: Second. 00:05:13,601 S2: Any discussion? 00:05:14,667 S3: Yes. 00:05:15,367 S2: Okay. 00:05:15,868 S3: Okay. So, um, in under Board of Health discussion, it says is proposing an amendment. 00:05:23,267 S2: Oh, yes, I fixed that. 00:05:24,767 S3: Okay, great. Maybe I was absent. You know, I thought. I thought it was voted through. 00:05:31,200 S2: Um, I picked up on that. 00:05:32,801 S3: Okay. 00:05:33,667 S2: It. You know, I changed it. Further amendment. 00:05:37,567 S3: Okay. 00:05:37,901 S2: And noted that it was recently amended, so I have. Oh. Let's see. 00:05:50,367 S2: Seven edits to the minutes. 00:05:53,701 S3: Okay, so my second edit would be um, it talks about nitrogen systems and it should just say nitrogen sensitive systems. 00:06:00,400 S2: Nitrogen. 00:06:01,100 S3: What system? Sensitive systems. 00:06:03,167 S2: Okay. Could you tell me where that is? 00:06:05,000 S3: That is the last or second to last sentence under Board of Health discussion. Second to last. 00:06:12,400 S2: Paragraph. Insensitive systems. Okay. And Darcy, you texted are you emailed me with a typo and I picked that up as well. So, um. 00:06:30,467 S3: So were most of your corrections? Um, sort of, uh, form and grammar? Yes. Okay. 00:06:37,767 S2: Form and grammar. But I picked up the problem that that you found with the reference to, um, uh, amending the G pod and whatnot. So. 00:06:50,701 S4: Marty, can I make a comment? Absolutely. On the minutes. Um, I did not attend the meeting, as you noted on the top, but, uh, the last paragraph before the vote, there was, um, util associates sent in a proposal for town center zoning. The board discussed when they would like to meet with you, Thiele, and move forward with public facing documents. 00:07:16,167 S2: Right. I changed that to move. I changed that, um, to meet with util, uh, discussed the. 00:07:26,467 S7: We have a hacker on the air. Thank you. 00:07:28,567 S2: I'd like to meet with you, teal. And the contents of the proposal. 00:07:33,567 S4: Okay. All right. Thank you. 00:07:36,467 S2: Yeah. Um. Oh, and the other thing. The other problem with the minutes was that we we met at the Council on Aging, not at the library, so I picked that up as well. That's the first paragraph. So Mark, I'll hand you. 00:07:55,167 S3: So in the in the noise and chaos. Um, could you just repeat what Amy's correction was? Was it not public facing, but something else? 00:08:03,801 S2: Oh. 00:08:07,167 S2: Amy, do you want to repeat your. 00:08:08,667 S3: Or could you just repeat what that correction was? 00:08:11,400 S2: I changed the last sentence to read the board, discussed when they would like to meet with util and the contents of the proposal. 00:08:19,367 S3: That's better. But what? Amy, what were you going to say? 00:08:21,367 S2: What were you going to say? Hmm. 00:08:24,167 S4: No, that was it. I just didn't know what. Public facing documents. Yeah. 00:08:27,400 S3: That's misleading. 00:08:28,467 S8: It was misleading me. Yeah. 00:08:30,467 S3: Yes. 00:08:31,000 S2: Jargon or something. 00:08:32,167 S8: Yeah. Thanks. 00:08:32,767 S2: What? A public facing document is to talk the truth. So anyhow, that's for Mark. So we can do a roll call, vote on the approval of the minutes subject to to those edits. So when I call your name, would you please indicate your assent? Pat Norton. 00:08:51,567 S9: Pat Norton, I. 00:08:52,567 S2: Jonathan poore. 00:08:53,501 S3: Jonathan poore, I. 00:08:54,701 S2: Am Dahlquist. 00:08:56,067 S4: Daniel Dahlquist ii. 00:08:57,167 S2: Darcy. Dale. 00:08:58,067 S5: Darcy. Dale I. 00:08:59,367 S2: Beth. 00:08:59,701 S7: Her I. 00:09:01,667 S2: Ann Marnie. Crochet. Okay, so the next item on our agenda is a pre-application review. Uh, for a. 00:09:19,167 S2: Communications tower. 00:09:24,267 S2: And so. 00:09:28,267 S2: Uh, do we have someone here representing the applicant? EIB communications one, LLC. 00:09:43,467 S1: Yes. Good evening. 00:09:45,667 S10: My name is Brian Grossman. I'm an attorney at Strang, Scott and Giroux. We represent the applicant, IP Communications One, LLC, generally known as Everest Infrastructure Partners or Everest. 00:09:55,701 S2: Pardon me. I didn't hear. 00:09:56,601 S8: That. 00:09:56,868 S10: Everest infrastructure partners or just Everest? 00:09:59,601 S2: Okay, so I had some questions there. Sure. Just me. So I know we were provided with the lease. Okay. And I'm going to try and find that. So the original lease was with Varsity Wireless LLC. 00:10:21,467 S8: Yes. 00:10:22,367 S2: And so, Doctor Google informed me that Varsity Wireless LLC was acquired by Everest Partners. 00:10:33,000 S10: That is correct. 00:10:33,868 S2: That's correct. So could you just for the record, inform us how Everest Partners, which was identified by William Olson as chair of the Select Board. In a letter to me. He identified Everest Infrastructure Partners as the entity that we would be dealing with. But what is the relationship of Everest Infrastructure Partners to IP Communications one, LLC? 00:11:09,167 S10: This may come as may or may not come as a surprise, but the IP part of IP communications stands for Everest is is short for Everest Infrastructure Partners. So they are corporate. They are related corporate entities. 00:11:21,167 S2: Related corporate entities. 00:11:22,601 S10: Yes. So the ultimate I think of how they did this when varsity was acquired, it generally assigned its holdings to IP communications, one which is under the Everest umbrella. 00:11:36,968 S2: Okay. And so do they share common management and common ownership. 00:11:43,968 S10: Um. 00:11:47,167 S10: Well, varsity was merged into and acquired by Everest. They kept some of the varsity wireless personnel. Uh, Christopher Davis, who was the president and CEO of Varsity Wireless, is now. Oh. His titles changed a couple of times. I think he's now president of United States development for Everest. 00:12:06,167 S2: Right. But I was talking about Everest Infrastructure Partners and then IP communications one LLC. 00:12:14,868 S10: I just IP communications is an Everest entity. If the concern is do you have the right entity in front of you that holds the lease? Currently the answer is yes. 00:12:23,501 S2: That's IP. 00:12:25,067 S10: Communications one. 00:12:26,467 S2: You hold the it holds correct. 00:12:28,367 S8: It holds the lease correct. 00:12:29,667 S10: It was it was assigned the lease as part of the acquisition. 00:12:32,267 S2: I'm only being technical because it matters, you know, in the it matters. But you know in the event that a butters raise any issues, we want to know who we're dealing with and and the relationship here. Because if you looked at the lease and you looked at the letter from the chairman of the Select board and the application, you have three different names. So now we have an understanding of that relationship. And you might note that I, I'm a retired lawyer. 00:13:02,868 S8: So sorry. No that's that's fair. 00:13:06,467 S10: I mean as you know you know, often you know, the, the corporate the the actual corporate name on file with the secretary of state or whatever it is. You know, there's then there's just the general business name, right? Like everybody refers to Starbucks, right? Starbucks isn't on file with the with either a Washington or Delaware, a Starbucks. It's Starbucks something. 00:13:23,868 S8: Right? 00:13:24,868 S2: Okay. So we're good. Um, so anyhow, um, with that, that aside, uh, I think important that you give us a sense of of a lot of what's being proposed here. And, um, you know, I, you know, I profess ignorance. I mean, I have no idea what this is going to look like. You know, there's nothing that I have seen that I can compare it to. The only cell tower that I'm aware of is off of Asbury Street, where habitat for humanity is building some houses. And you know that I looked at that a long time ago. So, um, yeah, I think that there's some education that needs to be done for the board. 00:14:13,467 S8: Sure. 00:14:14,501 S5: There's also another tower in back of the Public Safety building. 00:14:18,901 S2: Or the town hall. 00:14:20,367 S5: No, the public Safety building had a police some kind of tower because I could see it from my house. Oh, really? Um, so I don't know if if this is in lieu of that or in addition to. 00:14:31,767 S8: Right. The police. 00:14:32,567 S6: Police radio, police band, maybe. 00:14:34,868 S1: Exists? Yes. Yeah. 00:14:36,601 S8: What? 00:14:38,367 S10: There's a site behind the DPW which is actually also owned by Everest. 00:14:42,667 S8: Oh, okay. 00:14:44,300 S10: The one? Yes. There's a lattice tower that is a municipal tower that is at the property. That is the subject that will be the subject of the application. But that's a different style tower. 00:14:55,767 S5: Will that remain after this or is this in lieu of. 00:14:59,200 S10: Based on our discussions it'll be in lieu of. We will part of the the proposal is to relocate the existing antennas. And if additional antennas need to be located on the proposed site, um, to locate those at the top. 00:15:12,200 S5: Told us the lattice tower right now. 00:15:15,267 S8: I. 00:15:15,667 S10: Don't know. It is shorter than 110ft. I think it's 80 or 85ft. But, um, that's just I've I've been to the site and I've seen the tower. That is my estimate. That's not based on a measurement that I'm aware of. 00:15:28,200 S5: That gives us an idea. You can estimate from that. 00:15:31,767 S6: Maybe I'm premature. Then what's the driving force of replacing the antenna? 00:15:36,601 S1: Um. 00:15:37,367 S10: A couple things. One, the existing height isn't sufficient to accommodate the multiple wires, communications carriers, um, and also to provide the coverage that's necessary. So, um, increasing the height would make sense, um, by increasing the height. One of the things that will happen is if, um, uh, I think it's. 00:15:58,300 S8: Sheet. 00:15:58,701 S10: Five on that file. Uh, Mr. Connors might have the elevation on it. So the municipal antennas will go at the top, extend above the 110 foot proposed tower. Um, so that'll give them some additional height, which should help with some additional range for them. Uh, all the wireless communications carriers will be located below that. Um, so it will provide for additional municipal communications. It will provide for, uh, Verizon, who is Everest's anchor tenant, and, uh, and then it'll provide for co-location opportunities. and it might have been page six. Mark, I might be wrong on that. Um. Additional co-location opportunities as well. Obviously, if you're going to build the site, you don't want to build it just so that one wire communications carrier can use it. You want to make sure it's available for co-location. It's part of the ordinance as well. So Everest is proposing it to accommodate Verizon to additional co-location as well for a total of three plus municipal. 00:16:54,868 S5: The municipal would be the police and fire. Is that correct? 00:16:57,868 S8: Yep. Okay. Uh, it certainly. 00:16:59,868 S10: Is. Police and fire. I wouldn't say it as necessarily limited to police and fire. 00:17:04,801 S1: Um. 00:17:06,300 S11: Might be DPW is as well. 00:17:09,868 S5: I had a question. I was looking over some of the documents, and I'm seeing heights that vary from 109ft plus minus to 160ft. 00:17:19,467 S8: It's a good catch. 00:17:20,100 S5: Clarify. 00:17:20,701 S8: Well. 00:17:21,501 S2: Could I just add to that though? So I had noted, um, top of the tower 159.5. 00:17:31,000 S10: Let me explain because it's her question. Her question answers that question. So there are there are two. There's a reason you're saying 169. If you look just to the right of it, it's you'll see Amsl. 00:17:44,667 S8: Okay. 00:17:45,267 S10: That's above mean sea level. So that is not from that's not from the ground at which the location the site is placed that's measured off of above mean sea level. So if. 00:17:55,767 S8: You look. 00:17:56,167 S10: The other height that is shown, the 110ft that goes to the top of the tower, not the top of the municipal antennas, but the top of the tower itself. 00:18:03,567 S8: You'll see. 00:18:04,267 S10: AGL, which is above ground level. So that's where they're taking the height at the site going up 110ft. And that's the top of the tower. You'll see you'll see another note that may confuse you, saying it says the height of the tower is 109ft, but it accounts for the it goes on a concrete pad that that's not flush with the ground. But we don't get credit for that concrete Pad. So when you measure from the correct place. Ground all the way to the top of the tower that's sitting on that concrete pad, 110ft, which is the maximum permitted under the bylaw without the waiver. 00:18:40,300 S2: Okay. That's. Yeah. 00:18:42,968 S10: But very good catch, very good catch. And and if you look fast and you don't know what you're reading, or sometimes even if you do, you can screw that up. 00:18:50,567 S2: Well, I had never heard of a MSL before. Why would I. 00:18:55,467 S3: I. 00:18:57,300 S10: My I haven't done this a very long time. My, my understanding is that when the RF engineers are looking at it because of how they deal with their software, that is a distance. That is a piece of information they require, right? 00:19:10,567 S2: No, no. 00:19:11,100 S10: So they put it on the plane. 00:19:12,000 S2: I understand it, but it's, it's it's not something that, that I think any of us are familiar with. 00:19:18,467 S10: So no. And it absolutely can cause confusion. I absolutely get the question. 00:19:24,267 S2: Um, looking at it on our screen, I had to zoom in. So, I mean, it was pretty hard. 00:19:31,901 S10: Um, in terms of the location, we we met on site with multiple representatives from the municipality, police, fire. I think DPW and engineering were present. Mr. president, I think if I remember right, a member of the Board of Selectmen was present. Um, and we walked the site together to do a couple of things. One, um, understanding that, uh, one of the setbacks required under the zoning ordinance is a 200 foot setback to any existing structure not located on the property. So the police fire station doesn't count. Um, so we wanted to make sure that we located in accordance with that, uh, but also for obvious reasons, given that it is a first and foremost the property that houses public safety systems and municipal fire department and police department not interfere with their operations. So, um, we were on site for about an hour or so. Um, looked at a couple of different spots. This one made the most sense for a number of reasons. Um, police and fire were happy with it. Uh, it minimized any sort of interference with their operations. Um, part of the proposed compound is located where there's currently existing pavement. The other part of the proposed compound is located where there's currently already landscaped lawn. Um, and so in terms of removal of overall vegetation, extraordinarily limited, you're really dealing with previously developed area. Uh, the site itself, in terms of the compound, will be fenced by a wooden stockade fence that will further limit visibility into the compound. A nicer fence than something like chain link landscape. There isn't really any landscaping around it. I mean, it's already back there. Right now is the parking lot. Um, and so putting additional landscaping in front of it, between it and the, uh, the police and fire station would interfere with the gates and putting landscaping kind of otherwise around it doesn't accomplish much from a static perspective, especially with that, that stockade fencing and the setback distances and the existing vegetation that won't be disturbed. Um, because of the because of the location. Um, I, I don't think I need to tell anyone the need for the facility. I have a few friends who live in the area, including some that actually live in Hamilton. Um, that told me to make sure that you knew there was a coverage gap, and the residents here knew there was a coverage gap. Um, it will obviously fill the some of the the need between the existing DPW site, as I said, also owned by Everest and at least for Verizon, Verizon has a site further south in Wenham in a church steeple. Um, and so this kind of sits somewhat in the middle of that will help fill in, uh, certainly along one a help fill in on the commuter rail station as well. Um, and provide coverage. 00:22:21,467 S2: So it wouldn't extend as far as Highland Street, would it? Because there's a huge gap in coverage on Highland Street. 00:22:31,868 S9: Probably not. 00:22:34,968 S2: Probably not. 00:22:35,767 S9: Probably not. 00:22:36,567 S10: Probably not. But let's. 00:22:38,868 S9: See. 00:22:39,167 S2: Have you ever noticed that on Highland? 00:22:41,067 S12: Yeah. 00:22:42,000 S9: So I have a couple questions live over there. There's nothing. 00:22:46,000 S10: It reaches towards Highland, but it it it gets close. It it probably it may not perfectly solve it, but it may improve it, uh, based on the radio frequency propagation maps. 00:22:57,801 S2: Yeah. Because cars generally dropped somewhere around black. Well, Winthrop Street and Walden felt. 00:23:06,000 S10: So based on the propagation maps, which obviously will submit with the complete application, it does reach towards there and so may provide some some additional benefit there. 00:23:15,167 S3: So I have a quick question on uh, drawing a two. It shows the enclosure being adjacent to a stormwater infiltration area, and it's a little unclear exactly what the topography does in there, but it looks as though a lot of the pavement kind of aims its drainage water into that infiltration area. And that's that enclosure is sort of right. Looks like where it feeds into it. So I'm just curious if there's any change of grades or. 00:23:43,167 S10: Or it's really flat right there. Okay. Um, the compound right now. Right. So right now you have basically half impervious surface, half lawn, the compound other than the concrete pads for the equipment. And the foundation is covered in crushed stone. So typically it'll infiltrate right there. There shouldn't be any sort of change to drainage in that area. 00:24:02,167 S3: The contours that are there, no change in contours. 00:24:05,367 S9: So 00:24:07,767 S9: a couple questions. 00:24:08,667 S10: This the design was reviewed by the by the municipality before we got to this point. 00:24:12,968 S4: So there was a question on the height of it again. Does that trigger a particular kind of lighting that you would have at the top of the monopole. Are you required to have lights on the top? 00:24:25,667 S10: No. They've we've they've run the FAA and there's no there's a termination of no hazard to air navigation without the requirement for marking or lighting. 00:24:34,000 S4: Okay, another question. And maybe it's on the drawing somewhere, but these are kind of small drawings. The finish on the pole and the color. Can you tell us what that is? 00:24:44,367 S10: Um, sure. It's a hot dipped galvanized steel gray. So it's non reflective and then it weathers to even be more non reflective. Um, we find that in New England tends to be the best finish right. 00:24:58,167 S9: I had a couple email. You done with your questions. 00:25:00,868 S4: Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. 00:25:02,467 S10: We've lost the screen on it. 00:25:03,667 S9: Yeah. 00:25:04,100 S11: Working on it. 00:25:07,167 S9: Terrorist hacking. It looks like you're disturbing just over 2200 square foot. Probably more when you do the cuts and everything else. I guess the stormwater, you know. Probably. 00:25:21,167 S9: You know, maybe there's some stormwater concerns giving the, the the close proximity to the leaching field and everything else that they have there on that property. The I don't know if anything there has been addressed. It's it's considered to be a large tower, given that it's above 100ft and thus. 00:25:39,100 S10: Actually really short for the industry. 00:25:41,367 S9: But I mean, I guess from terms of permitting. So you have to comply with mask code 7 or 974 CMR, you know, 100. And I think it's also a two mile radius requirement from any other large tower. Um, which the, you know, the, the town hall, the unit behind the town hall is only 1.2 miles away currently. So unless you deconstruct that prior to reconstructing this, I don't know if there's any considerations there for your proximity to already what is considered to be a large tower. 00:26:20,901 S9: And have you met all the requirements in the state code? 00:26:23,400 S10: Well, I'll say I'll say. 00:26:24,467 S9: That setbacks and. 00:26:25,067 S10: Everything. Where? 00:26:28,901 S10: I reviewed the ordinance again before I came here, but I review a bunch in in a week. Yeah, I don't remember. A two mile separation requirement in the zoning ordinance. 00:26:37,467 S9: Should be a two mile separation requirement for any other large tower structure. 00:26:42,067 S10: Where, um, is that in the zoning ordinance, or are you getting that from the building code? It's certainly not gonna be in the building code. 00:26:48,367 S9: Not in building code. Um, and there's no go back and look for that. 00:26:53,000 S10: And there's no there's no CMR that I'm aware of under a state regulation that requires that there. 00:26:57,901 S9: But there are. So like, um, I know that you need 2500ft² of land, for instance, associated with a large tower above 100ft. Where are you getting the CMI requirements for the state of Massachusetts? Um, refer to the the CMR that you know the CMR referencing has these requirements in it. Um, another concern would be with the backup powers system that you'd be providing to support the structure, the size of it, the diesel storage requirements for it, unless if it's natural gas, and then the noise that it creates when being tested every week, how that emissions is exhausted. It's right next to a elementary school. There's a lot of concerns that a large tower and the support infrastructure might raise and that sensitive location. 00:27:51,567 S10: Um, I mean, in in terms of backup power, the primary backup power is battery. Um, if Verizon decides that it needs a generator, it will have to deal with that for. Um, we're not proposing one for them. Uh, so that would be that would be something they would have to deal with later. Um, otherwise it would be battery backup. 00:28:12,367 S9: So where are these footprints? Adjacent to the. I'm assuming the footprints provided that are adjacent to the tower are related to backup power? 00:28:22,701 S10: No, they're they're showing as future reserve for otherwise communications providers. And we're providing for co-location. So there needs to be both tower space and ground space. 00:28:33,767 S9: I want to confirm that they're doing battery power, because I was under the impression that a large cell phone tower system requires a emergency power backup system. 00:28:44,901 S10: Yeah. Battery is a sufficient power, but. 00:28:46,868 S9: Not for a long enough battery. A battery system may not be. I think I would. There's no description of what that system is in the application. It'd be good to get additional detail. What it is. 00:28:59,467 S10: Not to be argumentative. It's a pre-application conference. We haven't given you all. We didn't give you a full, complete package. So there are other things. You don't have the RF report in front of you. So, um. Well, certainly. I'll certainly take. I'll certainly take it back. But, um, as I said, the for all carriers that I'm aware of and I've known for a very long time, primary is always battery backup. Whether or not a generator is on site is a separate call. Um, there always can be a portable generator. If a power outage goes long enough, they can roll. They can. They do have portable generators that carriers can can roll out to a site on a temporary basis. Some carriers will choose to request and seek permitting for a a permanent and permanently installed generator. 00:29:41,801 S9: Well, you're absolutely right. This is a pre-application. So maybe there's like some follow up confirming questions related to backup power, related to the state code requirements and the setbacks and the square foot area that the, the, the space is supposed to allow for for a tower. It is a tight site. I know that area very, very well. Um, the space adjacent to it is a little wooded area that kids, Um, have ripped around a little track on their bikes. Um, so it is a very tight sight back there, even though there's obviously a parking lot for land, but I don't know, it's sufficient to support a tower of this size. Given some of the requirements that are set forth in the state code. 00:30:24,300 S2: If we can just, um, since this is a pre-application conference, and I mentioned this to Marc in an email, uh, just for example, in section two, 7.2.4.2, 00:30:38,868 S2: an applicant has to demonstrate that the tower and facility comply with all applicable standards of the federal and state governments, including, but not limited to, radio frequency emissions, air navigation, safety and environmental impact. And there are all sorts of other technical provisions in section 7.2. So the bottom line is that that the Planning Board is going to need to engage well, at the expense of the applicant, a peer reviewer who can provide us with the guidance that we need to go through all the kinds of questions that you're raising right here, that we don't run into any obstacles down the road. 00:31:20,200 S9: And I and I just I'm speaking also from experience, from a application that was submitted in the town of Ipswich at the, um, the Massachusetts like, I don't know what they call it. They're the train station. 00:31:32,868 S10: Yeah, I did it. 00:31:34,100 S9: Oh, you did it. Okay, so there was a two mile radius requirement in that application. No, you said that's that's where you're wrong. 00:31:40,100 S10: Well, there I believe there is, but that's that's in their zoning bylaw. If I remember. 00:31:43,767 S9: That's in the Ipswich Town zoning body. 00:31:45,400 S10: Yes. It is not part of it's not part of a see it. No you don't and it's not part of a CMR. 00:31:50,467 S9: It is close like we're at. We have a tower in the town. We have a in the town hall. We have it and this is a mile away for another tower. So there should be like a contingency something to. 00:32:03,067 S10: But you demonstrably still have a significant gap in coverage in this area. So what that tells you is that existing. 00:32:08,467 S9: Pop towers around everywhere. 00:32:10,567 S10: But there's no there's no other pile. 00:32:12,801 S9: You know, we have a tower in town. 00:32:14,400 S10: But but there's no other way to to resolve this significant gap. 00:32:17,567 S9: I understand what you're saying, but. 00:32:19,601 S10: And that's why things like. 00:32:21,601 S9: That was also a sensitive area in Ipswich. And it was, you know, that it does get content. I'm preparing the board for a contentious review when it comes to fruition. Right. You know, because it is a sensitive area right next to look at the baseball field that's right there. You're right next to an elementary school right next to residential area. It's a tight site. It's not enough field along the highway that nobody cares about, right. There's going to be people that show up. I have ducks in a row to prepare for it. 00:32:48,167 S2: Well, and I think that's to your point. I mean, moving forward and I and I can't prejudge, you know, anything because we don't have an application. But but we do need a peer reviewer who can Evaluate the application and answer the questions not just to the planning board, but the buttars to this site. And and everyone has to be satisfied that the application complies with all the provisions of section 7.2. And if it doesn't, we wouldn't be in a position to to grant a special permit. So would you agree with that assessment? I mean, these are there are very stringent requirements in in section 7.2 and some are very technical and others are not. But in our evaluation of this, we have to be satisfied that the technical aspects of it, which I personally would not be in a position to judge. I'm not an engineer. I have no experience in these things. I would have to rely on the expertise of a peer reviewer to make sure that what you provide us is what what is suitable for, for consideration for a special permit? 00:34:02,167 S9: Yeah. 00:34:02,868 S2: Does anyone else have anything to add to that? 00:34:05,200 S12: Yeah. 00:34:09,467 S2: Thank you. 00:34:10,167 S10: I mean, if if there's going to be a peer review, if you want to try and reach out to someone earlier and get them engaged earlier, we're happy to get them the information prior to the first hearing. So we don't get to the first hearing. And everybody says, well, why do anything? We need the peer review. Mhm. Um, so if that's a path you want to go down I would encourage you to, to. Let's, let's do that. Um, and let's find out who it's going to be. Get them engaged and we can get them going from right off the bat rather than waste one hearing saying, well, we're not going to do much because we don't have a peer review. Right. 00:34:41,400 S2: So that's why I brought it up, because when I started reading some of these provisions, I realized that, um, that the planning board might not have sufficient expertise to to go through the technical aspects of, of your application. 00:34:55,868 S10: That's some feel that they do. Some feel that they don't. 00:34:58,801 S2: So we're losing one of our experts, right? 00:35:05,868 S9: Who are we losing? The chief. The chief? The president. Chief complainer. Well. 00:35:16,400 S2: He has an engineering background, so he's been invaluable on some of these more technical aspects. 00:35:24,801 S10: Okay. I mean, in general, having engineers and those kinds of folks on boards are really helpful at times. So, um, I, I'm happy to take any more questions you have. The one thing I don't want to lose track of is I know the one thing I, the one question we had. Pardon me. One of the reasons we wanted to make sure we had the pre-application conference is, um, under one of the provisions, 7.2.5 has to do with the on site demonstration. I know, and I think most. 00:35:52,767 S5: With the balloon. 00:35:53,667 S9: Yeah. So the way the way. 00:35:55,868 S10: It reads, it says it has to be over three days. in and you could read that a couple of different ways. One means you have to do it just on three consecutive days, within a time we all agree on. The other would be you need to do it for 24 hours, three days a week, which with a balloon you really can't do the. The balloon can be unattended for a short period of time for limited periods of time. But if you're going to have a balloon on site for 24 hours, you'd have to have someone there effectively 24 hours. And I'm not sure there's a whole lot of value at a balloon test at 2 or 3 in the morning. Um, the way they they this same provision existed when the DPW site was done by then, varsity now Everest. Um, the way they did it was they actually did it on a Friday and a Saturday, two days from nine to noon, um, with a contingency for weather, which meant if it's too windy or whatever. Um, that until they got there two days in, they would just continue to, to do it. So if Friday was bad and they did it Saturday, they would do it Sunday. If Friday and Saturday were bad, they would do it Sunday and Monday. Um, and so that's what we would we would propose as well. Also, when you get further into the day and it gets later when you get really even towards noons a little late, it tends to get windier as the day gets longer or as the day gets later. Um, and that really ultimately ends up with the balloon test not being as effective. So we weren't doing it over limited hours in specific time. Makes a lot of sense. The other thing I want to make sure I mentioned that I did mention to Mr. Conners is, you know, the folks that we did the balloon test for us and take the take pictures and do the photo simulations based off of those our professionals with years of experience. So they look at a map ahead of time. They make a determination and their reasonable judgment where they think they should, at least initially, get some pictures from of the test based on their experience. As they drive around looking, they may take other pictures. Um, and I think they do generally a pretty good job. However, there may be places of specific concern that we are not aware of that. You definitely want a picture from whether that's a corner of an intersection, whether it's from a specific location like the library, whether that's somewhere else, you know, a specific spot in a park or a specific park. Have you? Uh, we want to make sure we get those. Um, and so whether, you know, you tell me tonight whether you filter those to Mr. Conners prior to the balloon test, if there are those types of locations where. Look, you say to yourselves, we absolutely want to see what it looks like from this spot. And the answer, maybe it's not visible at all, which would be good. You just let us know. We'll make sure we direct our vendor to go ahead and make sure they get a picture from that spot. 00:38:32,868 S5: Will these dates be publicized? 00:38:35,267 S9: Yes. So the way. 00:38:36,567 S10: 7.2.5 works is and the way the reason I can't just propose specific dates now is it's it's keyed off of when the first public hearing is. So I think it has to be between the first notice of the public hearing and the public hearing. Uh, and so ultimately, what I'd what I think would be helpful for us is to say, okay, what we're going to do is the Friday and Saturday, a Friday and a Saturday or Saturday and Sunday or however, what specific weekdays we prefer between these times. And then once we have the exact filing date, we and we work with Mr. Connors on when the hearing is going to be, we can then say, okay, these are going to be the dates that we'll target for the balloon test. That gets a separate public notice in the paper. And I believe to the butters. Um, so we draft that. I know there was a sample notice included in the prior application. We would do that again. Um, that would get published, get sent out. Everybody would know it well in advance. And then the balloon test would occur before, um, before the first public hearing. 00:39:43,267 S3: So would there be any, um, you said the experts usually know where to take the photos from. Do they give you a short list of where they would normally take the photos from. Like, if I were to just do it intuitively, I would say from large open spaces. So patent park, the high school fields, that kind of thing because that's where you have the longest sightline on open space. 00:40:02,667 S10: It it varies based on it varies based on location. Right. Like everything's somewhat site specific. So they'll look at the map and they have software and things that they use to model visibility and things like that. Right. And so they'll they kind of make that determination. I don't necessarily get a list from them. Um, as I said. 00:40:20,601 S3: Typically common sense, common sense, you know, analysis, there would be open space at more or less the same level or higher. 00:40:29,167 S10: Yeah. Look, I, I can't guarantee that this would be the locations, but certainly just having been to the site and seeing the overview, I would expect the vendor would look at the overview and go, you know what, a picture from the park across Bay road. Sure. Makes a ton of sense. They're going to take a picture of them, almost guarantee it even if I didn't tell them to do it. Right. Um, you know, maybe they take a picture from the ball field, from the, you know, from the school that Mr. Norton mentioned. Um, you know, certainly there's the to the, to your point, to the rear and to the I'm going to lose my direction, but I believe it's south, because if you're standing looking towards Bay road with the station in front of you, off to your left is the other residential area that's not straight behind you. They're going to take pictures from back there somewhere from from some of those roads. Um, so as you get further out, um, that starts to become a little bit more discretionary based on what they're seeing, based on what the modeling is telling them. And like I said, sometimes there's just a site that or something that's fairly far away that the modeling may even tell them isn't even like close to visible. But somebody says, look, you know, the I'm going to pick on you because I can see your name plate. The Dale house, it's three and a half miles away, is an extremely impressive historical site. We just want to know what it looks like from there. We get it. Probably. You can't probably see it, but we just want a picture to show it. 00:41:40,200 S3: Sure. Well, one thing you might consider is the one of the highest points around is in Hamilton, which is Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, but most of the view in that direction is blocked by trees. The views are more to the north and east, maybe. But you might they might want to look at that because it is the highest point around and it's an important destination. 00:42:02,501 S12: Right. 00:42:02,901 S2: And maybe from the town hall because that's in the historic district. 00:42:06,767 S12: Yeah. 00:42:09,300 S3: So just to, to, to respond to what you were saying, let's, let's talk about it in advance, not wait till we do it. 00:42:15,801 S9: And sometimes there's a map with a dot and an arrow, I mean, the perspective you're given. Well, so yeah. 00:42:22,601 S10: What they do is they, they generate that for us. After they take the pictures, they'll give us a key. Yep. And they'll give you the map that shows where they took the pictures from the vendor. These guys usually Everest, usually uses usually color codes that map. So they'll give you a color if they took the picture, but it wasn't visible from that location. You look on the map and by color you can see that okay, like if I go to picture 14, I'm going to see I'm not going to see the tower from there. If I go to picture 13. That color's different and that indicates it was visible from this location. And so I can go to that and look at it there. 00:42:56,267 S9: Really good. Maybe a proposed perspective before the photos as opposed to the after the photos perspective. But you guys can say that again. Right. Like agree. Like, you know, get what they're proposing to do before taking the photos. And then you can react to that proposal again. 00:43:15,067 S10: It's more helpful if you tell us where you if there's a specific spot where you want a picture from, let us know. Otherwise, you know, again, at some point we can only do this so many times. Um, and you can't meet and confer, so you could meet and confer about it in a, in an open meeting. But, um, just to go over a list of pictures is somewhat difficult. Typically it's, you guys know, the sensitive spots. 00:43:36,467 S3: Yeah. That's why I mentioned Gordon Conwell might. It might be counterintuitive because it's a ways way. Yeah. 00:43:42,901 S9: Visibility. So visibility map is not necessarily like, um, rendering like a graphical like a no, we. 00:43:50,100 S10: Will do photo sims. 00:43:51,100 S9: We will do a render, a graphical like a realistic rendering from some locations to not just the photo from. 00:43:57,601 S10: Yeah. So typically what they do is they use the blue. So what you what you do is you, you use the balloon obviously as the reference point. And then if it's visible they will do the they'll using their modeling put in an appropriately scaled and sized facility tower for what's being proposed. So in this case we have municipalities that are not really technically part of our proposal. But overall we know they're going to be on there. So those would be incorporated. So this will look like the thing that's being proposed as opposed to some generic tower. That's not what's being proposed. So it'll right height right scale, right width right number of antennas. All of that will be shown. 00:44:38,267 S4: I think one thing that would be useful would be to know where along the major corridors. Do you first see this hour long Bay road from the east? From the west, and in Asbury? Um, I think you want something from a distance. And then a few up close to the building or in the downtown area or Peyton Park or. But, um, uh, I think knowing when you're actually going to first see it becomes important if you just mark it on a map and, uh, uh, so we have some idea of what that what that, uh, area might be where first comes into view. 00:45:21,267 S2: That's right. Among, you know, so when I mentioned, um, like the historic district, that would be the north. When do you first see. 00:45:28,300 S4: Yeah, north and south. 00:45:29,501 S2: Seeing south on Bay road. When do you first see it? When you're proceeding north on Bay road. Is it somewhere in Wenham or is it, you know, in the town center? Um, and then similarly along Asbury and probably from the abutting neighborhoods to the east. 00:45:47,267 S9: The piece from I'm Sorry, Jonathan. 00:45:49,367 S3: The other piece that's often useful is in its immediate surrounds. Um, just understanding the understanding the general tree cover in that area. Like if it's if it's tall evergreens, like white pines, it tends to hide something like that. If it's deciduous trees in the winter and it's pretty naked, then it's more visible. Um, and I can't remember what the trees are like in that little hillock behind the public safety building. I think it's mostly deciduous back there. 00:46:13,667 S9: There's not a lot of 100 foot pine trees, so. 00:46:16,000 S13: I don't remember. 00:46:16,868 S10: Um, I just we were out there in the summer. It was green. Um, I will tell you that our intent is to file relatively soon, so the photos will also be done relatively soon. Good. 00:46:26,300 S9: Myopia would be an interesting place. The clubhouse on the hill. I mean, from the polo field, I imagine you'll be able to see this structure. 00:46:34,801 S2: Yeah. 00:46:35,267 S12: Oh, yeah. 00:46:35,868 S9: Certainly from the clubhouse, which is a bit higher. Yeah. Imagine those folks. 00:46:45,868 S2: I'm struggling here because I get the height. But how wide is this thing? I mean, how is it really substantial in size at the base? And then it, you know, just there's a tower that's relatively thin, extending 110ft plus or -30. 00:47:07,300 S13: Um. 00:47:09,000 S10: I haven't seen the tower design for this. In general, they're they can be roughly 36in to 48in at the base to tapering to like two feet at the top. It looks it might be a little bit more. 00:47:21,767 S3: It looks like the the radius of the antenna or the diameter of the antenna is somewhere around 8 or 10ft. 00:47:28,567 S10: Yeah. Each platform is about ten feet. So this is a triangle. 00:47:30,801 S2: This is what they look like. Okay. 00:47:32,367 S3: So now there's the thing at the top is about 8 or 10ft in diameter. 00:47:36,267 S10: Yeah. Typically the platforms are roughly ten feet on each side of the triangle. 00:47:40,367 S12: Okay. 00:47:41,167 S3: And that's what that's what you're really looking at. Not just the stick. Yeah. 00:47:45,501 S11: It's a it's a monopole. So it's just one pole. It's not like a. 00:47:49,467 S10: It's not a lot of style, which is what is at the DPW or not DPW. Um, the police station now. 00:47:55,100 S11: I. 00:47:55,267 S10: See. 00:47:56,067 S12: Right. 00:47:58,567 S6: Mm. 00:48:02,000 S10: Lattice is the one that has like the 3 or 4 legs. And you see, like the kind of interlocking cross bracing that goes all the way up. 00:48:07,000 S2: All right. Well, thank you for that. That's helpful. 00:48:09,667 S10: Um, and then importantly, there's no guy wires either, so there'll be no long wires that run off to a guy anchor somewhere. It's all self-supported by that foundation. 00:48:18,267 S12: Right. 00:48:18,667 S3: Just just out of curiosity. Just for my own benefit. What are these towers usually rated for? For wind resistance. 00:48:25,767 S10: That is a good question. It is based on the, um, standard that is prescribed by the code, and that is specific to each region. And I think it's even specific. It's even specific by county. So there is a specific rated wind speed that they're required to be, um, to be able to withstand. And that includes things like ice loading as well. Um, I don't know what that wind speed is off the top of my head for Hamilton. Um, but it's, you know, it's. 00:48:56,267 S3: And I would if. 00:48:56,868 S10: We've seen hurricane. I mean, based on what we've seen in terms of hurricanes of, you know, well over 100 miles an hour, it's certainly above that. 00:49:02,467 S3: Yeah. And generally, the code tries to stay ahead of, um, aberrant, you know, weather changes. So they there's usually a factor of safety in that. So I would assume the code would have. 00:49:13,000 S10: Yeah. 00:49:13,267 S3: I mean anticipated a little. What we're heading into generally with climate change is more aberrant. 00:49:19,167 S2: And there's. 00:49:19,567 S3: Inherent winds. 00:49:20,601 S2: So anything untoward happened. And the tower fell on the public safety buildings roof. I mean I'm sure there's insurance that will. 00:49:28,868 S10: They absolutely carry insurance. 00:49:31,467 S2: In case that wind is. 00:49:33,167 S3: The good thing is the setbacks. The good thing with the setbacks is the only thing that's in danger is the public safety building. 00:49:43,701 S2: Anybody else have any more questions? So I think that as a practical matter, you're going to have to coordinate with Mark Conners with respect to the balloon test. Would you agree? I mean, there's no way that that this board can, can actually get involved because Mark is responsible for the public notice. And so that the mechanics of getting that squared away are going to fall on him. And that makes perfect sense. You can coordinate. 00:50:11,467 S10: In terms of the specific dates. Certainly. Are we comfortable with the two days nine to noon? 00:50:16,100 S2: Well, the the bylaw actually says three consecutive days, but then the applicant can propose an alternative. So I think the important thing is to do the balloon test and get the pictures, because I think the pictures are what people are probably going to rely on. The butters are probably the ones who are going to be actually looking at the balloons, the balloon itself, but the public will probably be relying on the pictures. Does that. 00:50:45,000 S12: Sound right? 00:50:46,367 S9: To cover a Friday? Saturday? Sunday? A lot of people will leave on a Friday and come back on a Sunday, so you may miss the window of opportunity for doing over two days, so it would be nice to do it. If you do a Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 00:51:01,100 S12: Sunday. 00:51:01,467 S9: After the. 00:51:02,267 S2: At that at. 00:51:03,267 S12: The time. 00:51:03,767 S10: 9 to. 00:51:04,267 S12: 12. 00:51:05,067 S2: And that's a little bit more in keeping with what the by. 00:51:07,868 S12: Law I would do it. 00:51:08,901 S10: Get your early risers and your later later risers. 00:51:13,267 S9: 12:00 in the afternoon though. I mean the sun's going down. It's nice to see a perspective of a different time of day to like a 9 to 12. You're covering. The sun comes up over on the far end of where you'd see the sun goes down in front of this thing over at Patent Park, and that's when you're going to see it most. You know what I mean. If the sun's over on this side. You know, on the on the east side, you know, it's it's on the wrong location for where you're going to see the thing. 00:51:40,968 S12: Like primarily. 00:51:42,567 S2: Are you suggesting 9 to 3 or. 00:51:44,167 S12: Something. 00:51:44,567 S9: I'm saying yeah. At least capture some part of the afternoon and weather dependent. You change the day's whatever else, but it's not going to change that drastically around here between noon and 5:00 in the afternoon. So I was thinking 9 to 5. 9 to 5. You capture the whole perspective of where the sun's coming. At that point. 00:52:05,801 S10: Again, we haven't we have to have someone out there for that long, too. So if we're going to do 9 to 5, we'd really prefer the two days. And 9 to 5 gives you a really long window. Two days should be more than sufficient. We're going to have photo sims based on it. Um, you know, typically typically an onsite demonstration is one day from like nine to noon or 8 to 12 or something like that. So this is a really extended period of time. 00:52:31,767 S9: What'd you do in Ipswich? 00:52:34,567 S10: I actually don't remember. 00:52:36,501 S9: More than that. I think we should do, if it's a two day, if we make a concession of 9 to 5, then maybe the two day should be a Saturday. Sunday? People at work from 9 to 5 on Friday. Always around. 00:52:50,100 S12: Yep. All right. 00:52:50,968 S9: It should be a Saturday or Sunday if it's two days. If it's 9 to 5. 00:52:54,267 S12: Right. 00:52:54,667 S2: And you know, my personal opinion here with this is if the Butters are going to have issues, we should get all the information out and be as transparent as possible. And that avoids any problems down the road that someone says, well, you know, it wasn't enough time or this, that and the other. So I think that's right. Two days, 9 to 5. And you can coordinate with Mark. 00:53:19,968 S12: Okay. 00:53:20,767 S11: Two that works. 00:53:21,367 S5: For peer review. What's the step. What steps are taken. Is that. 00:53:24,467 S12: Something. 00:53:24,868 S2: Well that's Mark and Mark Market and the applicant can can coordinate that as well. 00:53:31,767 S11: Yeah. So typically you would. We'd get an estimate for what it would cost. And then we'd take that money from you. Hold it in escrow as long as you're fine with that. We would do that. 00:53:41,567 S10: Not unfamiliar with that process. 00:53:43,100 S11: Okay. 00:53:45,868 S9: But the plans are maintained both times. That's to remove the other one. 00:53:51,267 S10: Uh, I don't think we'll remove it. I think the town. Well. 00:53:54,167 S2: Uh, Beth has something to say. 00:53:55,767 S10: It's not ours, so we wouldn't. 00:53:57,267 S9: It's not yours to move. 00:53:58,868 S7: Go ahead. When you were saying getting the information out, is there something that I could post on? At least social media or the town site that we could let people know and help spread the word? And I don't know if we want to get something in the newspaper, but I'm just trying to think of various places to get it out. 00:54:19,167 S2: The public notice goes out first, and then the balloon test gets scheduled before the public hearing correct? 00:54:27,868 S9: Correct. 00:54:28,701 S2: So there's nothing until the public hearing is scheduled? It's almost premature to to alert people to something. We don't have the dates. 00:54:39,067 S5: Once it's scheduled. 00:54:40,000 S2: Once it's scheduled then. Absolutely. 00:54:43,067 S7: Okay. I just wanted to, you know, if there's more that we want to make sure that we're being very proactive. Um, I think that makes a lot of sense to be extra proactive just because if we're going to have a lot of feedback, I'd rather hear from people beforehand. So that's all. I just wanted to see if there was something I could do to help on that. 00:55:03,767 S2: Yeah. So once it's scheduled, I mean, I think that. 00:55:06,467 S12: Sounds. 00:55:06,701 S2: Great. I can post something on, uh, Facebook or whatever so that. 00:55:11,300 S12: People. 00:55:11,667 S2: Are aware, because I think that that if they're, if a butters are concerned, and I think Pat alluded to the fact that these are not necessarily popular for whatever reason, we want to be sure that everyone has as much information and that we can go through the the the subsections of section 7.2 very thoroughly and, and make sure all the questions are resolved and that whatever decision we make is supported, um, that is supported by, by the facts and are consistent with what is required in the, in the bylaw. 00:55:52,868 S12: Okay. 00:55:54,000 S2: Are we good? 00:55:55,400 S10: I don't have anything else. 00:55:56,667 S12: Thank you. Thank you. 00:55:57,801 S5: Thank you. 00:55:58,400 S11: Thank you, thank you. 00:55:59,100 S12: Thank you. 00:55:59,567 S2: Thank you. Thank you for your patience. 00:56:01,267 S12: Thank you. 00:56:02,501 S10: Good to see you all again soon. 00:56:06,267 S10: All right. I'll be on time. 00:56:07,801 S2: Good night. 00:56:09,667 S12: Okay, great. 00:56:11,667 S9: 200ft from the existing structure. This is within 200ft. 00:56:26,300 S2: Okay. The next item on our agenda. 00:56:29,267 S12: Is. 00:56:30,367 S9: Your juggling a lot of things. 00:56:33,567 S2: Um, grant opportunities. And I want to note that Matt Hamill has joined us. So, um. 00:56:47,000 S12: Mark, you. 00:56:48,667 S2: Submitted the designation so that whatever grant opportunities are out there, we have our foot in the door so that if we were to file a grant application, we have a, uh, we've crossed the first hurdle by having that designation in place. Correct? 00:57:10,167 S11: Yes. We haven't heard back from the state yet, but I, I think it will be fairly soon. 00:57:14,367 S12: Right. 00:57:17,767 S2: So Darcy and I in Mark. um, attended an information session um, on Monday and, uh, it was very informative and there seemed to be one grant program that might be applicable for the patent homestead, but, um, the, uh, the, uh, individuals who were representing what was the name of the app at mass. 00:57:48,067 S11: Mass development. 00:57:48,901 S2: Mass development, um, weren't they didn't cover all the, uh, one stop grant applications that are available like MathWorks. And if you recall, the HTC, um, submitted an application, uh, to Mass Works for sidewalks and other downtown improvements. Uh, I think about two years ago. And I think that that their application was Considered and may even have, um, uh, made the first cut. The the grant was not ultimately awarded, but it's something that we should look at because it kind of plays into, um, utils proposal. Do we get anything from util mark in response to the planning board's comments the last time? 00:58:47,767 S11: Yes. We have a revised, uh, scope should be in your packet. 00:58:53,601 S12: Okay. So. 00:58:54,667 S2: So we haven't seen it, but, um. 00:59:02,667 S2: The prior scope had a design standard street streetscape and permitting frameworks. So if there were grant opportunities it they may cover that the design standards or designs of the public realm, um, it's it's hard to, to actually, um, uh, say at this point, but that might be where a grant opportunity could be very beneficial. 00:59:33,567 S12: So let's see. 00:59:35,767 S2: So did you want to say anything more about the grant opportunities? 00:59:41,000 S5: Um, I wouldn't mind mentioning that, um, you know, the shooting ranges that we have over by tobacco. Um, they're they did have a brownfield grant that might be able to be used in that area. And I know right now they're looking to sign a 20 year lease instead of the I think they're going on a 2 to 2, 2 or 3 year lease at a time now. But they want a 20 year lease. But there might come a time when we're going to have to clean that up after all these decades. 01:00:14,300 S12: Mhm. 01:00:15,100 S5: So there's another grant opportunity we might be able to, you know, look at. 01:00:20,267 S2: That's that's a tough one because that lease can get signed for 20 years. Well before any grant. 01:00:26,801 S12: I know. 01:00:27,567 S2: Or to be obtained. 01:00:28,868 S5: Think about we want to operate it. 01:00:32,467 S12: Yeah. 01:00:34,868 S2: Yeah. 01:00:39,067 S2: Okay. So, um, I guess that's it. To be continued. Uh, so the master plan implementation. No word on that from the select board. 01:00:54,100 S11: I assumed it was, um. No. They told me they were they were taking off the agenda because, um, they were focused on budget, but, uh, I was expecting it to be on the last agenda, and it wasn't. So I'll talk to Joe, but I think it just. 01:01:06,167 S2: Well, you know, I, I'm thinking that, you know, maybe the implementation committee should not have, um, Members of the public. It should just have people from the town. 01:01:18,367 S11: Yeah. 01:01:19,100 S2: I mean, it just could be communication with the different boards and commissions in town and just have, um. 01:01:28,501 S11: Some staff maybe like DPW or. 01:01:31,167 S12: Yeah, just. 01:01:32,100 S2: Get, get to get, get all the town people together once or twice a year and see where we are on the master plan. 01:01:40,901 S12: Um. 01:01:41,868 S4: Yeah. I think that's the right way to go. 01:01:44,767 S2: So I can take my letter with respect to the implementation committee and revise it. And I will do that, and we can have it on our agenda for the next meeting, because one of the things that, uh, I think could have been done more cooperatively is the sale of the patent homestead, because in our master plan, we have as an action item. Looking at the open space and farmland preservation development by law and the estate overlay district by law, the patent homestead qualifies as an estate under the estate overlay district, and so the present plan for the patent homestead is to sell it to a, presumably a non-profit, some type of foundation run by the patent family. And the 21 acre parcel is to be divided such that only five acres were to were to be are to be sold. This is subject to approval at town meeting. 01:02:56,100 S12: And. 01:02:57,000 S2: Probably other contingencies. But had we worked in concert, maybe the amendments to the bylaw and the sale could have happened as A package with a proposal. And and so again, I've alluded to the fact that I'm working on this draft, but one of the, one of the ideas for the estate house is to allow some commercial reuse, because some of these estate houses are really large and they're not they're not really saleable because of their size. I mean that most families don't need ten bedrooms and 5000ft², or 7000ft² of space or the like. The patent homestead needs so much work. And you could see that even if it's sold to a foundation of some sort, they could have a gift shop. That's a commercial use. It's not allowed right now. That's an RA district. So the thought from my discussion with Joe is that they're going to seek a variance from the CBA. But had we been communicating, we might have, uh, brainstormed, uh, a different result. And I am not suggesting that the sale to a foundation run by the patent family is a bad idea. I think it it it it is a good idea, given the nature of the gift and the intent of the gift, which was to honor General Patton and assist veterans. So that that's not the point that I'm making. But I think that there are a lot of things in in my little speech here. One is to get an amended letter about an implementation committee. And in that committee, had it existed, could have looked at this more holistically than piecemeal. And that's without an implementation committee like that, the, the the tendency is to just have this. Everything's in, in, in a, in a silo instead of looking at the, the, the picture of the town as a whole. So. 01:05:25,601 S2: Anybody have any thoughts on that? 01:05:32,400 S2: So, um. 01:05:38,100 S2: Why don't we move on to accessory dwelling unit design guidelines? 01:05:55,667 S4: Which item on the agenda. 01:05:57,667 S12: Are. 01:05:57,901 S2: The accessory dwelling unit design guidelines? 01:06:01,067 S4: 3B2 okay. 01:06:04,100 S5: 3B12. 01:06:05,767 S2: So I noted at the last meeting that I attempted to print out, uh, Boston's design guidelines, and it was unsuccessful. I don't some of the pages printed and others did not. So I don't know what that, um, issue is, but I think we do need to look at look at Boston's design guidelines, because I thought they were actually rather well done. And they than they posed questions, you know, to the people who were potentially going to add ADUs. And I thought that was a very constructive way of introducing the the guidelines. So, uh. 01:06:52,567 S3: The trick with the Boston guidelines is it's very much, um, obviously urban focused. So it has to be tailored. 01:06:59,000 S12: Absolutely. 01:06:59,367 S10: It has. 01:06:59,667 S3: To be. So it might be that we need to find some guidelines that are more suburban focused and sort of combine those ideas with the Boston guidelines. But I thought there were a lot of good ideas in the Boston guidelines, and it was very thorough. 01:07:13,801 S2: Well, it had a the way it was structured with the kind of the questions. I thought it was a good idea, you know, the actual, um, examples. 01:07:23,000 S3: And it gave a lot of different examples. So it wasn't, it wasn't like a, a sink. Here's a single solution. There were many, many different solutions. So it showed you that you you could really look at different sites in different ways. Right. Is what my takeaway was. 01:07:37,200 S2: So. 01:07:41,667 S2: Maybe we could, you know, do you know of any communities that have Adu guidelines? 01:07:47,567 S3: I haven't hunted for them, but I think, um, you know, it's pretty early to be looking for them, but but we could start, you know, I can start looking around to see what's what's out there. But the Boston ones were the ones that caught my eye. But, yeah, it has to be translated into a suburban setting, right. And streamlined. Its to to comprehensive. 01:08:09,100 S2: Okay, so why don't you know, if you don't mind. Just put that on your radar. 01:08:13,667 S12: Sure. 01:08:14,167 S2: Yep. Um, and and, uh, you know, I think I, I tried to. 01:08:19,601 S12: To. 01:08:20,467 S2: Google it and, you know, to see if anything popped up. And I think it is premature. 01:08:26,200 S3: It's early. 01:08:26,968 S12: For the early. 01:08:28,167 S2: Days. Yeah. 01:08:30,267 S3: But it might be that other some other design guidelines could be adapted. You know, in other words, not just Adu, but there might be some other types of guide design guidelines that could be adapted. Yeah, not literally, but, you know, using some of their ideas. 01:08:45,167 S2: Well, you know, I don't, you know, since since the planning board's not involved in the approval of ADUs anymore, I don't have a sense of how many are being built. 01:08:57,200 S11: I can help you with that, actually. Um. 01:08:59,667 S5: I've noticed Beverly has a couple. 01:09:03,701 S5: This year. 01:09:06,467 S11: So we've had a fair amount, actually. Um, I think there were eight approved in Hamilton last year. So, um, the states put out a map of. 01:09:24,868 S11: Each town, how many they've, they've issued. So, uh. 01:09:35,767 S11: Is being very slow today. 01:09:39,167 S9: Saint Patrick's Day color themed. 01:09:41,267 S3: So is the darker the color, the more a to use. 01:09:44,300 S11: Yeah. So according to this, nine, 80 years last year five. Detached four attached, which is, um, quite a bit for our population. 01:09:52,868 S3: So yeah. 01:09:55,300 S11: When I'm only had two ADUs approved last year. 01:09:59,567 S12: How many did we have again? 01:10:01,100 S6: Nine? 01:10:01,601 S11: Nine. 01:10:02,167 S12: Nine. 01:10:03,067 S2: And how many were detached? 01:10:06,167 S11: Uh, five. 01:10:07,567 S9: Five. 01:10:12,200 S11: Uh, Beverly had 12, but, you know, it was a much larger community. Uh, Gloucester had just one. Essex had one. Ipswich had, uh, nine as well. 01:10:32,767 S5: What does Manchester show? 01:10:37,267 S11: Um, 01:10:40,000 S11: two. Two attached. 01:10:43,167 S12: Mm. 01:10:45,868 S12: Interesting. 01:10:48,968 S2: Okay. So again, that's a work in progress. So we can, uh, turn to the town center zoning. And since we just got this, we can all take a moment to review it. 01:11:08,801 S2: Okay, well, do you have a copy? 01:11:11,267 S4: I do, yes. Yeah, I had a chance to look at it earlier. 01:11:14,767 S12: Copy two. 01:11:16,100 S4: The one thing I would say, just to go back, step back to the design guidelines. Um, you know, this was sort of on our horizon at some point. And I think my sense in the approach would be to, um, um, look at the town wide, simple set of design guidelines and then zero in on particular things that are quite different. ADUs could be one of them. And then, of course, the town center would be another. So you have kind of a broad general set of design guidelines with kind of limited, um, body of material. And then as you get more specific, you can zero specific You can. You can zero in on specific things. So I think, um, I mean, I like the idea of a suggested look at what's available out there and find out which ones might best fit the town of Hamilton. I think that's something we can do. You know, even as maybe a subcommittee, a couple of people working on it, uh, to make some progress. And then, uh. 01:12:23,167 S4: The difficult part is going to be the graphics for, for us, I think writing is not going to be difficult, I think, to come to some agreement on that. But I do think, uh, it's not that complicated really, but but I think the graphics will be very important because it should be just full of graphics, make it easy to read more accessible. But, um, anyway, I think that should be a strategy for design guidelines going forward. But anyway, to answer your question, yeah, I looked at the utterly revised scope. They're still hovering around the $9,000 mark, but what they essentially did was illuminate public realm and design guidelines, which I think from my standpoint, first reading their first proposal, there's no way they could have done either one of those things justice in the time they had allocated to do it. So I don't think that was a big loss. I think it would be if we could get a grant to help us out in some of these, especially to pay for, you know, things like graphic design on it, on the guidelines or even public realm kind of pick a project there that would really be good utilization of that mass development opportunity. But my sense is that they pretty much. 01:13:44,868 S4: Complied with what we had asked them to do, put them together. You know, we did ask for deliverables. A little bit more elaboration on that and they'd come back with that. Um, so they have basically the educational guiding materials is the predominant one. Uh, now with the step by step code guide and a handout material for public use. Um, I think those are two important things. Um, so that and they also the recommendation at our last meeting was to have or two meetings ago was to have two example parcels. And I think if we can choose two very carefully, we can really get them to do uh, uh, even some scenario options for larger lots in the town center, which would be kind of useful for the planning board going forward. So I think we can kind of get more out of them if we're really selective in terms of what are the two parcels, I'd like to see us kind of direct this a little bit more than the the form based code. They sort of went off on that and it got sidetracked with the other issues. As we all know, the three A and the um, primarily and the school project, but, um. 01:15:00,567 S4: I would say given the amount of time they put, they've got 13 hours for, uh, project management and coordination. Um, seems a little heavy, but, you know, that's not unreasonable. And then 47 hours for the educational guided materials. So I think this would be a good I would be in favor of this particular proposal. Uh, you know, without any changes to it, I could really support this. Um, but I but I'd like to get, um, now that we have their scope, um, maybe just fill in, uh, a little bit of maybe what we see in the scope of each one of those that is not, is not going to vary that much from what they have. But I just would like to kind of zero in with them. On what might be most important for Hamilton, you know, to, uh, to tackle the language is just a little bit loose and, uh, you know, it could it could mean a lot of different things. 01:16:04,367 S4: But by and large, I think they did did a good job in responding. The public realm is really important for us because that would directly affect any kind of mass development project, like an HTC project wanting to improve sidewalks. Right now there is no guide or because that would fall within the public realm. Uh, the form based code is all private development, nothing to do with the streets. Even though we had put that in the original scope with Util, they decided not to address it because they couldn't. They felt they couldn't write a code for public land, which was their interpretation. But in fact the town needs guidance to do. DPW would need guidance. So, you know, I thought we could perhaps do that as design guidelines incorporate the public realm, because that would include that would include actually parking streets, travel lanes, streetscapes, sidewalk material, uh, street trees, furniture in certain areas, anything to kind of enhance the, the general, uh, safety of the downtown and desirability to spend time there. And those are the key things for the public realm. So I think, um. Um, I think that should that should be a priority on the planning board to kind of tackle that, you know, at some, at some stage. 01:17:29,367 S12: Well, I. 01:17:29,901 S2: Know that not to interrupt you, but we should really think about that because, uh, I think the focus of this, I mean, I mentioned mass works. That's the actual work that's done on the sidewalk. What we need initially is planning. 01:17:47,467 S12: What. 01:17:48,000 S4: We need to design it. 01:17:49,567 S2: In the way of trees and sidewalks, whatever. Not actual construction because. 01:17:54,868 S4: No, no. It's got to be planned. That's what it is. It's a guide. 01:17:58,367 S2: It's planning. And so, Marc, we should really think about this because we learned from mass development that the deadlines on these things are like June 30th. Am I correct in my recollection. 01:18:11,167 S12: Yep. 01:18:11,467 S2: So we have to. So if we want to get in the queue for any planning, we've got to jump on it. 01:18:20,667 S12: Yeah. 01:18:21,467 S4: Right. 01:18:22,667 S2: And I and I think it's, um. 01:18:27,868 S3: So, Manie, what you're suggesting is that we might get a consultant who would do some planning, but in collaboration with the planning board, and again, collaboratively, what could grow out of that planning? I think, Amy, you're alluding to is that's where the guidelines could grow out, do the planning and let the guidelines grow out of that in the public realm. But you'd have it be led by a professional rather than the planning board. Take all the initiative. 01:18:52,167 S2: Oh, I think so. I think it's more than. 01:18:54,100 S3: Yeah, but it'd be collaborative. It would. You wouldn't just sail the consultant off on their own. 01:18:58,567 S4: Oh, no. No, no. You'd have to give a scope of work. So, you know, Q or something like that, then you'd have to define what the project is. And I think that's something we could do. Um, so then if. 01:19:10,067 S3: We want to do that, it seems like the first step is to, like you say, define that scope of work, almost in a sense. Create, um, a combination of RFP and draft for a, um, application for a grant. 01:19:24,167 S11: Grant? 01:19:24,567 S12: Yeah. 01:19:24,968 S2: Right. 01:19:25,367 S12: Maybe. 01:19:25,701 S4: Exactly. So we would not be designing it. We're going to set up what the work product we'd. 01:19:30,901 S3: We'd create, in a sense, an RFP that would then form the framework for the grant proposal. 01:19:36,767 S2: What I'm thinking is we should have, like a workshop, what our ideas are for what you put in the RFP, right? 01:19:44,667 S4: Yeah. No, I think that would be. That would be a very good thing to do, I think. 01:19:48,467 S12: Yeah. 01:19:48,868 S2: If we could get some some good graphics for the downtown, um, maybe from what you tell did. And so we see what we have. 01:19:58,400 S3: Oh, you're saying to use it as in as tools for workshop. Yes yes yes yes yes. There's there's plenty there's plenty of of documentation and mapping between what you teel did, what the advisory committee did, what the town has. There's lots of lots of base information that you could lay out on a table and do workshops with. 01:20:20,567 S2: Right. And so the workshop would just basically be saying, we want to see plans that, uh, promote the following goals. 01:20:29,367 S5: With the master plan. Have a place in. 01:20:31,367 S12: This, uh. 01:20:33,000 S4: This really that's not that detail. 01:20:35,267 S2: No, this is really specific. So what do we want to see? So just I'm going off track here. But remember the pictures we saw of Bay road with the trees? Maybe we want a professional to give us ideas on how we can implement that vision for Bay road. 01:20:58,200 S3: That's what you can do. 01:20:59,701 S4: I would say just kind of block out really what it is we really want to do. And I think we can do that in a workshop, you know, work on the various parts of a public realm and because, because Bay road will be treated differently than Willow Street. So it's not like the one size fits all exactly. Or street lights. Do you want the same street light on, you know. Right, right x, Y and Z. So it's really look at the main thoroughfares as sort of the starting point and the activities that are now laid out in the form based code for those areas. Those two things are the beginning. And now put together, uh, how to improve that environment. You know, if it's if it's walkability, you know, sidewalks then and even try to get some pocket parks in here and there just to make it more interesting. Right. And landscaping street trees. That's really important. But you only do that in key areas. Right. It's not just anytime you get a chance to do it, do it. It's got to be really studied and designed. So I think, I think I think and then you go after the pictures and the graphics that you feel did cover some things in their graphics, but that's mostly helpful for interpreting the code. But I think things like photographs even could be different sites or things that have been done before, or drawings even of things that represent improvements to the public realm. But when we assemble, what are all the pieces that are involved in the public realm? When we start assembling that, then those are the tools we're going to work with to kind of figure out, well, what do we want? Where? And, you know, to what extent we're not going to design it. We're not going to say put brick on all the sidewalks or anything like that. But um, you know, allow the professional to kind of use their own sense when they look at what we need to create the kind of unity of a nice design for the downtown. So it's not all the same, but it's all it all works together. That's all part of a family of designs that. 01:23:00,467 S12: Um. 01:23:00,767 S3: Right. So the first step might be to create a framework for workshop. In other words, create an agenda for a framework for a workshop, then do the workshop. Then out of that, see if we can craft the beginnings of a, an RFP and sort of grant framework and then work with. 01:23:17,267 S4: Yeah, really, it's a fun project, I have to say. So, you know, it's it's not all drudgery. 01:23:22,667 S12: Right. 01:23:23,767 S3: But those would be I think those would be the steps. Yeah. 01:23:27,100 S11: And I would just say that in terms of the plan itself, uh, DPW would have to be sort of involved as I am because. Yeah, they're absolutely in charge of everything. 01:23:36,767 S4: Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. 01:23:42,267 S2: Do you think that we could have this in place by our. Well, um, at least have some first steps for our next meeting, which is, I believe, on. 01:23:54,467 S4: Three weeks away. 01:23:56,000 S12: Three weeks. 01:23:57,167 S2: 24th. 01:23:58,868 S4: I think it's the 31st, I think. Marty, I think we have three weeks on next. 01:24:05,167 S11: No, it's, uh, 24th or. 01:24:07,467 S12: 24th. 01:24:08,167 S2: Is our next meeting. 01:24:09,167 S11: Yep. 01:24:09,501 S4: Oh, it was changed. I had I got that off. Okay, great. Put together our framework by then. You mean to have the workshop on the 24th? 01:24:18,267 S12: No. 01:24:18,567 S3: To put. 01:24:18,868 S12: A. 01:24:19,000 S3: Framework for the workshop. Workshop? Notice. How would you structure the workshop? What base materials would you be using? How? Yeah, how would you orchestrate the workshop? I think that's reasonable in two weeks to have something for discussion. Yeah. 01:24:33,567 S2: Yeah. 01:24:34,067 S4: Yeah. I'll take a look at that. 01:24:36,100 S2: And, uh, and, uh. 01:24:38,400 S3: Because the good thing is we don't have to generate we don't have to create the base materials. We have base materials. Just organizing them in a sensible way. 01:24:45,801 S12: Right. Yeah, right. 01:24:48,467 S2: And then just have, um, the kinds of ideas that would create the walkability. 01:24:58,000 S12: And. 01:24:59,868 S2: The, um, that would promote the the development. 01:25:04,367 S12: Yeah. That's right. 01:25:05,601 S2: And that in the form based code. Um. 01:25:09,868 S12: Yeah. 01:25:10,367 S2: Street trees and and pocket parts and. 01:25:14,367 S12: Uh, yeah. 01:25:15,067 S2: All that, the, uh, parking and. Yeah, whatever. You know, the tools that could be used in the different areas because it would be different in the different areas. 01:25:28,601 S4: Yeah. Design lines could follow that. because again, it's all private development. Then it's about building buildings relationship to the public realm and to each other. That's what that's what the design guidelines would be. So that again, we can handle that a little later. That's a little bit more work. But like the public realm, certainly we should be able to get that done pretty quickly. 01:25:57,367 S12: Okay. 01:25:59,367 S3: So I would echo Amy's comments about the proposal. I, I support the proportions of work here, um, and able to address the lack of specificity in the second part. Would it make sense for the board to maybe even right now to discuss what some examples of parcels or, um, sort of permitting process would be the most useful so that we're guiding util and then say this is what we think. Util what do you think would be the most useful? Would that would that be beneficial right now? 01:26:40,100 S4: Well they're talking about early two types, one conforming and one non-conforming parcel. The only thing I would add in there is that we we have a couple of larger parcels in town, but most of them are relatively small parcels. So I'd like to get a larger parcel in the downtown. Again, one conforming and and then certainly nonconforming, because the goal in the educational guide is for us to learn how to use it, use the code. Right. Just to be comfortable with it. Um, and along with the town, we could select those sites. I think we could do that. 01:27:13,667 S3: So was the large Willow Street site. Is that nonconforming? 01:27:17,868 S4: Yeah, I think the end of Willow is, uh. 01:27:20,400 S3: So that might be a good a good candidate for the nonconforming. 01:27:24,701 S4: That's one of the larger parcels. 01:27:26,467 S3: And it's it's a weird shape. Being a weird shape makes it more complicated. It's sort of a wedge shape. 01:27:32,567 S2: Which parcel are you referring to. 01:27:35,767 S4: At the end of Willow? North end of Willow. 01:27:38,000 S2: Is that okay? Okay. Dodge tree and watch tree. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 01:27:43,400 S3: So it's a large, complex site. That's that's an odd shape with awkward, awkward access to the rear part of the parcel and locked in by the train tracks. So it's got lots of odd conditions. 01:27:55,367 S9: All right. 01:27:56,000 S3: I'm sorry. 01:27:56,601 S9: That's Ashley Field now. 01:27:58,000 S2: Yeah, it's Ashley fuel. Yeah. 01:28:00,467 S4: Yeah. So what wood. 01:28:02,367 S3: And then does. Um, does the Crosby's lot. Is that a conforming? 01:28:08,367 S4: Um. 01:28:09,467 S3: Or would you be something. 01:28:10,767 S4: That's already really. They kind of did an analysis on it. We could talk as a board about how successful their analysis is of the Crosby's Hamilton Crossing location. Is that what you mean, Jonathan? 01:28:22,200 S3: Well, yeah, but would that be a useful case study? Maybe something else would be a better case study. Is there an underutilized lot that's more medium sized there? 01:28:34,100 S3: I mean, a good one would have been the one that's already built. Um, you know, on Willow Street. But yeah, that's done. 01:28:42,767 S4: I think. Uh, I think the Cumberland Farms is a real missed opportunity on their part. 01:28:47,701 S3: Maybe that's one. 01:28:49,267 S4: That could be fun. 01:28:50,467 S3: So maybe the maybe those are the two there, the the Cumberland Farms and and, uh, the oil company. 01:28:58,267 S4: Or even how those two relate across the street from each other. You know, the Hamilton Crossing and that that straddle. 01:29:05,868 S3: Oh, okay. 01:29:06,901 S4: And that's I haven't really looked at that in a lot of detail, but recently. But, uh, the others are quite small properties and they're the real key is going to be how to develop the back of the lot. It's really going to be neat, uh, you know, along the, um. 01:29:21,901 S3: Well, maybe that would be one is a deep, uh, small, deep lot. 01:29:25,100 S4: Small. Deep lot. Combining, you know, allowing them to say, cross a property line for parking. Sort of shared parking between front building and back building kind of thing. 01:29:36,000 S3: That would. 01:29:36,367 S4: Be more another. 01:29:37,601 S3: That would be more probably interesting and fraught than, say, Cumberland Farms as a case study. 01:29:44,400 S4: Yeah. 01:29:46,567 S3: Yeah. To think of what. 01:29:47,400 S4: We can get their opinion too, I think, on this. But we should make a give them our, our preferred ones, I think. 01:29:53,667 S3: Yeah. And maybe we give them more than two. We give them 3 or 4 and say what do you think would be the best out of these. Right. Or do you think of something else. Right. 01:30:03,000 S14: It's a honeycomb a lot of complicated one. Mhm. 01:30:06,400 S4: Well carriage lanes going to be a complicated one. And the other one I really think has potential as Cummings Avenue. But um those are to be two neat projects going forward. But. 01:30:21,667 S3: Well should we start writing some of these down as I mean? Right now we've got about five, right? 01:30:27,367 S11: I always hear about the Willow Street industrial use people. Yeah. 01:30:32,367 S4: That's the one that showed up is people wanting more change there than less change. Uh, so that by far was the, the, the winner in terms of, you know, do something with this. 01:30:46,100 S3: Maybe and maybe we rank them. We come up with 5 or 6 and then rank them what we think are the most useful, and then let you tell your rank them. And we come to agreement. 01:30:55,868 S2: You know, I think that that dodge tree is well. 01:30:59,467 S3: Maybe that gets ranked one. 01:31:01,367 S2: That's the most vacant, if you will. 01:31:04,167 S3: And it's complicated too. 01:31:05,367 S2: It's complicated. 01:31:06,267 S3: It's a corner. It's it's a wedge. It's it's locked in and it's hard to get to the back of it. 01:31:12,167 S2: Yeah. 01:31:12,767 S3: It's shallow in parts. Deep in other parts. 01:31:15,467 S2: Am I right? There's really no building there. It's more just the storage of equipment. 01:31:20,300 S4: Yeah. 01:31:20,801 S2: Yeah. So it has the potential to to change hands. Easier than, say, what just happened with Welch and Lampson that was sold to another fuel company. If you follow me. 01:31:33,000 S3: Yeah. 01:31:34,167 S2: And even the garages, the Sammy's Sam Sammy's garage was transferred to someone else. So those uses are a little bit locked in, at least for the. 01:31:44,200 S4: Well, the other the other thing. If we if we come up with a scenario on that, that would really maybe convince the fuel company that there's some monetary advantage to selling that property to a developer if they follow the that and then move out of town or something, that's inappropriate for downtown. I don't know if that. Well, I don't want to get into that. But whether that was part of the old code that they were allowed to use, that was a an allowed use on Willow Street on the Willow Street, uh, district. But anyway, got approved. 01:32:16,467 S3: Well, do we want to start building a list right now? Yeah. Can somebody write things down? 01:32:21,968 S2: Mark, can you. Be our scrivener? 01:32:23,767 S11: Sure. So, uh, you know, we have Dodge Street. 01:32:31,801 S2: Dodge tree. 01:32:32,801 S11: That's tree. 01:32:34,367 S2: It's really that whole. 01:32:36,167 S3: That whole end of the willow. 01:32:37,200 S10: That whole. 01:32:37,601 S4: End. Yeah, the whole north end of willow on. On the east side. 01:32:42,267 S9: Yeah. 01:32:43,000 S5: Cumberland Farms. Was that another one? 01:32:45,267 S3: Yeah. Potential? Yeah. And then Abel mentioned Cummings Ave as just a general approach. Um. He's interesting. 01:32:53,667 S4: Yeah. Those you can almost hold off because they're not single parcels. They're really multiple parcels. But again, the idea if you get if you show a a nice development in there, that's the sort of thing that could attract a developer not trying to build up the downtown. But I think we have a nice, safe organization to the form based code that we can really do some nice improvements to allow people to spend more time in our downtown. Those are those are two pretty exciting areas, I think. 01:33:25,100 S4: So you can almost keep those at the end, Cummings and Carriage Lane, but the other critical ones would be come. Cumberland Farms and. 01:33:37,701 S4: They already I don't know how they feel about tackling, uh, Hamilton Crossing, but, um, um, I think they did a nice job frankly, on doing that, I would make some changes to it, but by and large, I think they did a pretty good re-analysis of it. But. 01:33:57,901 S3: Um, it seems like the other lots would bear more fruit. 01:34:02,167 S11: The thing with the, the shopping center is that was excluded from three a so it's anything there is pretty much going to have you by special permit. So you would have more of a say it would be a longer process than like a typical site plan review. Yeah, in the other districts. So. 01:34:19,167 S10: Yeah. 01:34:22,367 S4: Well, I think the deep lots. Certainly along the east side of Bay road, you know, up to maybe carriage. So it could be that area from Cumberland Farms up to the rear, lots of carriage Lane. 01:34:37,067 S3: So can. Yeah. That's great. So lot 46 and 227. Yeah. And 228. 01:34:45,000 S4: 228. 01:34:46,467 S3: So those three lots are really deep and awkward. 01:34:52,267 S4: Yeah. Again there there's some really hidden opportunities there that would again make a big difference. Um. 01:35:00,567 S3: Especially with shared connections across the back of them. 01:35:03,100 S4: Yeah, exactly. That would be really important. Parking for downtown. Yeah. 01:35:11,868 S4: Yeah. So maybe, Huh? Um. 01:35:17,067 S4: Um, working with Mark just to get something back to you. Just to elaborate a little on that step by step code guide, you know, on selection of parcels, we can just kind of float by them. These are these are ideas that the planning board discussed as options and get their input on it. Um, you know, I could I could write something up with, with the reasons why we want to investigate these because there's some opportunities that are not evident. It's not evident the way the form based code came out. But we know that those really have potential and you knows that too. Um, but this could this could be a good thing, I think, for you to get back to util just to put them on. I'd like to I'd like to see the planning board have a little more control of what happens with the public realm. 01:36:09,567 S3: I think the why it is useful in in adding to the list. The what? The why? In other words, this property. Because. This property. Because this property. Because. 01:36:19,701 S4: Yeah, absolutely. So they if they just disagree with it, then we they can tell us and yeah, I can draft something if you like on that. And um. 01:36:30,267 S14: Is that a. 01:36:31,701 S11: I could send out like some kind of survey to the board where people can vote on their favorites or for them somehow. Would that be helpful? 01:36:39,367 S4: Sure. I mean, people being planning board or. 01:36:43,000 S11: Yeah, just planning board. 01:36:44,501 S4: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, I try to group them as individual maybe, maybe sort of two lists, one individual properties and in one important groups of properties that could give you a, a more dramatic change in the downtown. And none of this is going to be excessive. I mean, uh, but it would really give the downtown some vitality that's missing. And it's not like we're really going to go in and really create a new downtown in Hamilton, but I think the character is going to be preserved. The scale is going to be preserved, and now we're going to do enhancements to the public realm that includes sidewalks and lighting, streetlights and and street trees, and just be more specific about those where they should happen and how they would differ. The other thing is introduce a little park here and there. I know the HTC wanted one at the end of railroad where buzz abuts one A. They were looking at that small park. I mean, that's sort of prime real estate being in that location. You can make the argument both ways, but, um, you know, I think that has potential. 01:37:57,667 S4: Or even a lot 45, which is actually be right behind them. 43. Anyway, I, um. 01:38:06,667 S3: I think the value in having a Discussion and guidelines on the public realm would be like if the HGC did create that, um, parcel at the end of railroad as a public park, instead of looking at it in isolation. If you looked at it as part of the gateway and connection across Bay road, like we talked about in the form based code process and in the advisory committee process, it would be a strong would. The outcome would be probably a stronger asset to the downtown. Looking at it holistically rather than just as a single parcel. Look at it. 01:38:41,767 S4: Exactly. Because single parcel fragment intersection. Yeah. No. That's right. 01:38:47,267 S2: That's a pretty small parcel. 01:38:49,367 S3: Yes, but but if depending upon the decisions you make, you can make it into a gateway so you don't sail past Railroad Avenue on Bay road not knowing it was there. 01:38:57,868 S2: I agree with you. And I was suggesting that as a building site it's pretty small, but as a as a introduction to the commercial area. It could be very. 01:39:09,367 S3: I really reiterate my story about my wife being in Hamilton for four years before she discovered that Railroad Avenue even existed. She drove right past it. Oh, there's a cute little thing down here. I never knew about it. The reason she didn't notice it. 01:39:25,667 S2: I, you know, and it's the post office, so we have no control over the front of it. But, you know, there's a little parklet there. 01:39:33,667 S3: But but you can create a gateway that at 30 miles an hour, you can see as you drive down Bay road. 01:39:40,567 S2: Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking about these things. And since Bay road is a is a state highway, you know, we have limited control over that. But can we reduce the speed limit on Bay road through the downtown? Because it always amazes me how fast people drive through town. 01:39:57,968 S3: Well, sometimes you can get permission to do like a nubbin or something like that. You know, at the end of an intersection or parking space, you know, as long as it doesn't narrow the passage on the on the road. And that would be something that, again, could be part of this public public realm is. 01:40:14,868 S15: To really. 01:40:15,901 S2: Slow traffic down. 01:40:17,567 S3: Yeah. So you slow traffic. You slow traffic with with urban design and and, you know, road with not with signs. 01:40:25,467 S15: Right. 01:40:26,300 S3: Not slow things down. 01:40:27,767 S2: So you know, I know just in, you know, when I was in Pittsburgh over the holidays, driving through some of these neighborhoods, the roads literally, they create, uh, almost barriers so that you're driving, uh, straight, and then you actually have to turn to keep driving straight. You know it. You just can't. 01:40:48,868 S3: Well, your Europe is chock full of those strategies. We're just way behind in this country. 01:40:53,100 S15: Yeah. Yeah. 01:40:54,167 S2: And so that that definitely could be incorporated into this public realm. Because to slow, slow people down so they can actually see what's there. 01:41:05,000 S15: Right? 01:41:05,868 S2: Yeah. So. All right. Well that's good. We'll do a little survey and get a get geared up for util. And then maybe once we get their feedback we can schedule the dates where they will, you know, attend our meetings so that we have that. 01:41:26,467 S11: Sure. 01:41:27,167 S2: Because the money has to be expended by the end of June, am I correct? 01:41:31,901 S11: June 30th. Yep. 01:41:32,868 S15: June 30th. 01:41:33,667 S4: So it's pretty quick. 01:41:35,000 S15: Pretty quick. 01:41:35,767 S2: We we have to, you know, get get ball rolling. 01:41:39,801 S15: Yeah. 01:41:40,467 S4: You need a vote on this or on the util contract or Mark or is that. 01:41:46,868 S11: I think I have your general approval. I can have ask Joe to sign tomorrow. 01:41:53,100 S15: Yeah. 01:41:54,100 S3: Do we want to do a quick vote? 01:41:55,501 S15: Sure. Sure. 01:41:56,767 S2: Uh, I'll entertain a motion. 01:41:58,667 S5: Uh, a motion to send to Joe. Um, the, uh, let's see now, town center zoning that we discussed tonight. 01:42:10,501 S3: Well, there's a there's a proposal from util. Yeah. Support, support. Make a motion to support the proposal from util as allocated. 01:42:19,501 S4: Second group with additional services. And it's day at three 1026. 01:42:24,601 S3: Sorry. 01:42:25,000 S15: What's that. 01:42:26,000 S3: Email? 01:42:27,000 S15: Uh. 01:42:27,901 S4: The topic is Hamilton Town Center code, additional services, and the date is three, ten, 20, 26. 01:42:34,267 S3: We want the current one, not the previous one. 01:42:36,467 S4: This is 310. Yeah. 01:42:37,667 S15: Yes. 01:42:38,167 S9: Correct. This is for a grant application or are we supporting it? 01:42:43,000 S4: No, no, this. 01:42:43,968 S15: Is just. 01:42:44,968 S2: To get up to speed on the implementation of the. 01:42:49,767 S15: Code. No. 01:42:51,100 S11: For the for another thing, we're trying to get a grant. 01:42:53,601 S15: But. 01:42:53,901 S9: A different. 01:42:54,367 S14: Thing. 01:42:54,567 S11: Yeah. 01:42:54,767 S15: Yes. 01:42:56,400 S3: So, did we have a second? 01:42:58,167 S5: Yes, I second. 01:42:58,868 S15: Yes. 01:42:59,167 S3: Okay. 01:42:59,567 S2: So, roll call. Vote. Pat Norton. 01:43:02,601 S9: Pat Norton I. 01:43:03,868 S2: Jonathan. 01:43:04,467 S3: Poore, Jonathan poore I. 01:43:06,200 S2: Emil Dahlquist. 01:43:07,567 S4: Emil. Dahlquist, II. 01:43:08,767 S2: Darcy. Dale. 01:43:09,601 S5: Darcy. Dale. 01:43:10,267 S2: I Beth. 01:43:11,200 S7: Her death. Her. 01:43:12,667 S2: I am Marney Crouch I. So we're good to go. 01:43:22,868 S2: Okay, so let's see what the time is. We like to talk. Uh. 01:43:31,267 S4: Yeah. 01:43:32,267 S2: So, uh, let's let's cut to the chase here. So the groundwater protection overlay district, I thought it was very useful to have, um, uh, the presentation made by David Smith and Greg Bernard. And I asked Mark to supply the board with the proposed amendment to, um, uh, let's see, what is that? Uh, section 9.1.4. So you should have that in your package. And, and, uh, Jonathan, you were concerned about having an expert look at this. And, you know, I think that maybe we do have to make some type of reference. Again, I'm. 01:44:23,400 S15: Not sure. 01:44:24,367 S3: Specifically on this. I think this is a great start. And I think what would be useful here is, um, to add metrics to some of these points. So for, for example, specifically, um, to provide a greater degree of protection to groundwater sources, there needs to be some metrics around that. 01:44:42,868 S15: Like what? 01:44:43,367 S2: What do you mean in terms of metrics though, that. 01:44:46,467 S3: Well, for example, um, it talks about, uh, adequately monitored, you know, or operates, uh, let's see for example, there's, there's specific metrics in, in, um, uh, the. 01:45:07,968 S3: Nitrogen sensitive areas. Right. But this, this doesn't really cover that, you know. So the question is do you use some of the metrics or design requirements from for nitrogen sensitive areas? Or if you're saying that, um, you can, you can reduce from 80,000ft² provided the applicant can demonstrate a greater degree of protection. But what's to what greater degree, a 0.0001% greater degree, or what is the metric? What's the what's the standard here? Um, and there are standards around, uh, nitrogen sensitive areas. There's other standards around alternative systems, but we don't quite have it here. And I don't feel like I can add that information. I would need to rely on a sanitary engineer to help us with that. 01:46:01,467 S15: Right. 01:46:01,868 S2: But so. So that what I take away that I got from from this Greg Bernard, it's based on bedrooms. 01:46:11,767 S3: Yes. And, um, that's the beginnings of one metric. But there's another metric in that when you have an awkward site or a tight site or a sensitive site, there are there are different ways to design the system, but they have to meet some performance standards. So like if it's a sand filtration system or, um, you know, some of these more, uh, experimental systems, there just needs to be, I think, a little bit more specificity about what the bar is that we're supposed to make there. 01:46:47,300 S4: There's, um, the number of bedrooms is the beginning. Then you have to determine what the ground conditions are. The soil composition. You know. How well does it infiltrate? Does water infiltrate? That's when they go through the perf tests out there. So it's a little hard to say. Um. Uh, they were talking about I listening to the meeting. 10,000ft² of lot per bedroom as sort of a guide. Uh, so, um. 01:47:23,567 S4: But you you could have you could have, um, you could have a slow condition where maybe that doesn't work if you're on a lot of rock, for example, or if you're on silt area or something like that, you know, that then would have to be built above the ground, the, the whole septic system. So I mean, everything has to comply, I guess, with title five. But um, but what. 01:47:49,801 S3: You're. 01:47:50,000 S4: Trying to do is you're probably has a good understanding of the the complications of it. 01:47:56,000 S3: What you're trying to do is you're trying to raise the bar from the standard title five compliance. But the question is, how do you create that metric of raising that bar? In the past, that was 80,000ft², you know, was go from 40 to 80. That was one way to raise the bar. And what we're saying, that's also a little bit of an arbitrary metric. There's more technical metrics than that. So one idea would be to maybe contact an engineering firm that does alternative systems. I don't have the names of those engineers, but I've worked with, with with septic contractors who do alternative systems. And I might be able to get the names of some engineers who design those systems. And then we could maybe see. 01:48:46,701 S3: Are there potentially some metrics or some standards that we can refer to. Or is there some a little bit more specificity about that takes the sentence, provide a greater degree of protection for groundwater sources than a conventional septic system. Take that to the next level. 01:49:03,367 S2: Yeah, I get that. 01:49:05,968 S3: And I don't know the answer. I would need somebody to guide me. 01:49:08,801 S2: And you know, I just have two. Two comments. One is some of this could be part of regulations as opposed to the Bible. 01:49:18,467 S3: Could be. 01:49:18,868 S15: Yep. 01:49:19,167 S2: And and two is whatever we put in the bylaw, we should recognize that that these title five regulations that are issued by the Commonwealth they they can change. So we don't want to be so specific that, that whatever we put in the bylaw is obsolete because there's some new system out there. 01:49:41,100 S15: Sure. 01:49:41,968 S2: So those are those are considerations. So there really three to your point and to the two points that I made. You know how how we can have something that that works but isn't so specific that it could become obsolete? Or, you know, if it's subject to a regulation, we can change our regulations much easier than we can change a by law. 01:50:05,267 S3: Yeah. So then, for example, it might be that this references a regulation and then the regulation. It references some standards that might move. But at least we can adjust those those standards. But I don't I don't have enough information to to frame that. And I feel like we need we could use an engineer to help us. 01:50:25,567 S15: Yeah. 01:50:25,901 S2: And you know that, you know, to your point, I mean, we I mean, the information we got was very helpful, but it wasn't too much in depth because it just there was only the reference to enhanced nitrogen removal technologies and. 01:50:42,067 S3: Right. And that's out there. But we need to be more specific than that. 01:50:46,701 S9: I think. I think you're. You guys are both probably spot on. I think the the the wording is important. I mean to. 01:50:58,000 S9: To, to encourage a non-conventional system is probably not the right way to say it, but no, all four can. All four is an engineer who has probably one of the best ground wire discharge permit, uh, mines around the region. Anyways, uh, gentleman by the name of Art Cunningham, and he helped us with our system. Um, I think what you have is not bad. Like the, the overly, you know, you have a pretty high bar of the 8000ft², even though it's arbitrary. But you allow for an exception with systems that comply with the groundwater discharge permit process, which is what governs, you know, this basically every non-conventional system that the state that anyone would apply if you have a chemical, if you have something similar like Gordon comma, which is a chemical treatment plant. That's a groundwater discharge permit. If you have something like a bio labs has, which is a solar aquatic system that uses no chemicals, uh, to treat water and discharge it back into the ground, that's also groundwater. It's the same permit. It's two drastically different systems, but they all are governed by the same problem. And that those requirements change about every two years. Um, for what you have to monitor for, for what they allow and discharge volumes. And that's very specific to the site condition. Um, those volumes are so again, leaving it super generic is good, but making the right reference is also good. 01:52:24,167 S3: That's what I'm not after. 01:52:25,501 S15: I don't know, doesn't change anything. 01:52:27,000 S3: We can't design it. But but making sure that it's locked into the right references, that's all. And I don't feel like I have the, the the expertise to. 01:52:34,701 S9: I'm happy to reach out to art, um, who helps us with ours. And, you know, he might actually also make the offer to anyone who wants to come. If the board wants to come, It could be after I leave the board. Even, uh, want to come to New England by labs. And I can tour the system so you can see what one looks like in person. And the art could be there to talk to you about it. And you can explain to them what you want to do, and you can give you an idea of how to achieve that. Um, if you guys want to come up with a time and date that works for everyone, be happy to accommodate that. 01:53:03,467 S5: That sounds. 01:53:03,868 S15: Great. 01:53:04,200 S3: Sounds great. So but I, I would feel more comfortable if somebody like this expert looked at this wording to make sure that we're not tripping into something, that's all. 01:53:13,367 S9: He'd be happy to. 01:53:15,501 S2: So. 01:53:19,601 S2: This I don't remember from the presentation. So our septic inspector. 01:53:29,667 S2: Does the title five work with respect to just a run of the mill conventional system? And if you don't have a run of the mill conventional Septic system. Do you need a groundwater discharge permit? 01:53:47,400 S9: Uh, maybe. Not necessarily. Um. 01:53:54,667 S2: Because at what point does the septic system leave the purview of the town septic inspector and have to have approval from the Commonwealth? 01:54:06,801 S9: That's a really good question. 01:54:08,200 S2: Because I guess that's kind of what you're getting at, is that if, in fact, if you don't have a conventional system, if you have to have a groundwater discharge permit, all you have to do is put that in the bylaw because that covers it, that then that permit comes from the Commonwealth. 01:54:29,400 S3: And the question is, is that too onerous? Is that the right way to do it? You know. 01:54:34,868 S2: Well, that's what I mean. 01:54:35,801 S3: Yeah. And somebody else needs to look at this. 01:54:37,801 S15: Yeah. 01:54:39,467 S9: Yeah. that that's something, um, engineer like Art could tell you also. 01:54:45,868 S15: When you. 01:54:46,667 S9: When does the bar leave Board of Health and go to state. What technology is, is the Board of Health able to. 01:54:53,701 S3: And you want it. You want to make it. Um so that you are protecting your your groundwater, but not making it so that that trigger happens prematurely, you know, so that everybody has financial hardship, no matter where they are putting in, is trying to put in a conventional septic system. 01:55:10,100 S9: All conventional septic systems are pretty equal either. There's some features in leaching field or treatment of the pipes and everything else that are different, that are more beneficial to the groundwater supply. 01:55:21,567 S14: Yep. 01:55:22,367 S9: Or not? Mm. Also maybe even including a clause to address. You know, treatment is one thing, but the quantity of wastes is another, like the amount of. Maybe, maybe there's an accommodation that gets made for systems you might employ to reuse greywater like your your your washing machine, uh, dishwasher, those kind of things. If you employ some technologies really that's also a it's WP 85 is the is the state code requirement. It's requiring a permit to reuse greywater. And it's actually pretty onerous, which is too bad because. 01:56:02,801 S3: Those are those are complicated. I, I support that. But that becomes it really becomes tangled when. 01:56:08,968 S15: You try. 01:56:09,868 S2: To look into that at our at our house, because we wanted to put in a, in a sink in our garage, but to to hook that, that up to our, um, septic system. We have the impediment of the stairwell from the basement to the kitchen. So it would be, you know, we thought we could just pump the gray water out the back. It. No, no, it was it was going to be way complicated. It wasn't going to work. It sounded like a plan. 01:56:42,100 S3: But why don't we start? Why don't we start with a review of what's written here? And if if he could look at that and give us some guidance on whether we've got the right triggers in here and whether we've got the right metrics with the understanding of what the goal is. 01:57:02,367 S11: My only comment on metrics is that there is some benefit in not having like, hard limits because you're locking yourself into if you said it has to be 50%, you know better than a conventional system, you're kind of locking yourself into that. Whereas the applicant might be willing to make concessions like they might be willing to say, um, you know, we'll have a we'll have some sort of guarantee on the deed that it will be no larger than a three bedroom house or certain square footage. Um, so there there's opportunity for some. 01:57:32,400 S3: Yeah, no, I don't I'm not suggesting you lock in a one specific metric. I just right now it feels a little bit vague. 01:57:41,501 S14: Squishy? 01:57:43,167 S11: Sure. 01:57:45,000 S3: So is there. Is there an intermediate step? 01:57:51,667 S3: And it's primarily kind of the second bullet there provide a greater degree of protection, you know is. 01:58:03,200 S2: But what are these enhanced? Um, nitrogen removal technologies obviously provide a greater degree of protection because you can increase the number of bedrooms from 5 or 6. 01:58:19,167 S15: Yes. 01:58:20,167 S2: So that's what I'm thinking is maybe we then just have to refer to an enhanced nitrogen removal. 01:58:28,367 S9: But nitrogen isn't the only thing of concern. 01:58:30,601 S15: Exactly. 01:58:31,767 S9: That's one phosphorus is now on. 01:58:33,467 S3: That's one one metric TDs. 01:58:35,968 S15: That's why. 01:58:36,567 S9: Dissolved solids really. 01:58:37,567 S3: Needs to be looked at more comprehensively. In my opinion, each of these is is sort of an isolated arbitrary metric. You know, the, the, um, uh, number of bedrooms is sort of an isolated rule of thumb. The nitrogen sensitive isn't an isolated piece. It's looking at holistically from an engineering. 01:58:58,000 S6: But if you get too specific though, you then subjects that to you. You said every two years it kind of changes. 01:59:03,467 S9: Well, again, it's just making the right reference to the. 01:59:05,400 S15: Yes to. 01:59:05,968 S9: The codes that govern these. 01:59:07,167 S3: Things so that as those codes change, it's it's tied into those. But I don't feel like we're quite there yet. 01:59:13,767 S14: I agree that's all. Yeah. 01:59:16,200 S2: I don't think we have the funds to engage. Uh. 01:59:20,367 S9: An engineer will do the the the request that got made. He will he will be. 01:59:25,567 S14: This is just. 01:59:26,000 S15: Formally. 01:59:26,667 S3: It's a couple paragraphs here. 01:59:28,267 S15: It's a quick it's a quick look. Yep. 01:59:30,601 S2: Yeah. So the question. 01:59:31,567 S9: That you have to come visit us at. 01:59:33,467 S15: Okay, okay. 01:59:34,868 S9: Pro quo there. 01:59:35,868 S15: Okay. 01:59:36,367 S9: Jonathan. 01:59:37,267 S15: Okay, good. Okay. 01:59:38,968 S3: I'd love to. 01:59:39,667 S15: Yes. Yeah. 01:59:40,300 S9: So the similarity is gone. 01:59:43,067 S2: Yeah. So. And, you know, I, I, I looked at title five and I thought when we were looking at this gray water issue, I thought I'll look at title five and I'll figure this out. And I looked at title five and I went, not in my lifetime. I mean, it's. 01:59:58,467 S15: Like. 01:59:59,667 S2: Page after page after page of the densest regulations you could ever, ever imagine. And, um. 02:00:08,968 S3: You know, it might even be that it's not hard and fast metrics. It might. 02:00:13,067 S15: Be just. 02:00:14,167 S3: A little bit more encouragement to go in the right direction. 02:00:17,667 S15: Right. 02:00:18,667 S11: Yeah. Or. Yeah. 02:00:22,067 S15: Well. 02:00:23,100 S11: To be continued. 02:00:24,267 S2: To be continued. 02:00:25,367 S3: But I think it's a great. 02:00:26,367 S15: It's a great start. But I just I would feel. 02:00:29,067 S9: A motion to close the hearing? 02:00:30,100 S15: I would just feel more comfortable with a little. 02:00:31,801 S3: Bit more, um, expert, uh. 02:00:34,200 S15: Review. Okay. 02:00:35,567 S2: Okay. And then, so we touched on the patent homestead, so we don't need to do that. But one of the other projects that I think we need to put on our radar is, uh, redoing the section 11 definitions of our