00:00:00,067	S1:
It is 7:01 p.m. and I'm calling the February 24th, 2026 meeting of the Hamilton Planning Board to order in the event any of our members may be on zoom, I will take a roll call. But before that, I will note that this meeting is being recorded by H.W. Kemp. So when I call your name, would you please indicate that you're present? Pat Norton present. Jonathan.

00:00:29,167	S2:
Poor Jonathan, poor present.

00:00:31,000	S1:
Bill Wheaton.

00:00:32,000	S3:
Bill. Wheaton. Present.

00:00:33,267	S1:
Darcy. Dale.

00:00:34,167	S4:
Darcy. Dale, present.

00:00:35,701	S1:
And Marty Crouch present. And I note for the record that Emil Dahlquist will not be attending. He advised me that he is a little under the weather, and I'm unaware of the other members, but we do have a quorum, so we'll get started. So the first item on our agenda is the review of minutes. Um, is there any discussion about the minutes?

00:01:25,601	S1:
Hearing none. I know for the record that Darcy advised me that she identified a typo on the third paragraph from the end of the minutes, January for January 13th. Um, there was a period that should be eliminated, and that's a very minor typo. And then for the minutes of February 3rd, I had several very minor Stylistic changes to those minutes, and other than that, I'm satisfied with the minutes. Does anyone have any changes that they would like to make? In that event, I will entertain a motion to approve the four sets of minutes that are on our agenda.

00:02:15,167	S4:
So moved. Second.

00:02:16,467	S1:
Could you identify what minutes they are?

00:02:18,868	S4:
Yes, we were going to be approving November 4th, 2025. December 2nd, 2025. January 13th, 2026 and February 3rd, 2026.

00:02:30,367	S1:
And I have a second. Second. So, are any members appearing via zoom? No. So all in favor of approving the minutes? Say aye.

00:02:42,801	S3:
Aye.

00:02:43,467	S1:
Anyone opposed? The minutes are approved. And, Mark, I will give you the sets of minutes that have the changes.

00:02:56,100	S1:
Okay, so, uh, if no one objects, I would like to take the, uh, Board of Health discussion out of order, uh, and go straight to the land use applications of myopia. I don't think they will detain us too long, but I want to talk to, uh, uh, the chair of the Board of health, David Smith, and his associate, Greg Bernard, in conjunction with the Groundwater Protection Overlay District, which appears at the end of our agenda. So if you don't mind, um, I'll try and make this quick, and then you're next. How's that? Uh, so we do have a land use application, a site plan, and a stormwater management permit application. I have, um, uh, read carefully the, the site plan application, and I compared that with the, uh, section 10.6 of our zoning bylaw, and I'm satisfied that the applicant has complied with our stormwater management bylaw. And I note that our planning Director has, in conjunction with both the site plan approval and the special Permit for the Stormwater Management Application, prepared a list of conditions, some of which go to the Site Plan Review, which includes landscaping, lighting and hours of operation so we can discuss those conditions in conjunction with the stormwater management application. But I the members, well, the folks from myopia have been given a copy of these suggested conditions, and I think that we can consider them as a package with the stormwater management application. But I don't think that the conditions are terribly onerous. And they do go to some of the comments made by the Buttars with respect to landscaping the lighting, dark sky compliant. I'm sure that the members of the club would be supportive of that. I'm sure that in the evening, in the summer when they're having events there, they don't want to have spotlights or really harsh lighting, and then the hours of operation we can talk about. I note in your site plan, site plan application that you list the hours of operation as 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. and the conditions, um, go from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. Monday through Friday and 7:30 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. on on Saturday, so we can review that. So do any members have any comments with respect to the site plan application itself.

00:05:58,167	S2:
I guess other than with the dark sky dark sky compliant lighting, it would be nice to have a submittal or cut sheet for the luminaires.

00:06:11,100	S1:
We could add that.

00:06:14,901	S2:
And maybe I missed it.

00:06:18,767	S1:
I don't know what to what extent that the light would spill over to the butters, but it may.

00:06:26,167	S5:
We just had myopia come up in.

00:06:28,100	S6:
Oh, sure, sure.

00:06:47,667	S7:
And even if not from human associates with Jonathan Miller from the.

00:06:57,000	S7:
Closing argument. And yes, Mark, we submitted these, um, as requested in the last meeting. Cut sheets for lighting. They're all dark sky compliant. Um, so these are in the file.

00:07:10,467	S6:
Right?

00:07:12,868	S1:
Did you want more than that? Uh, Jonathan? Or is that satisfactory, given that the, um, the actual buildings are quite far removed from the butters?

00:07:23,000	S2:
Yeah. No, I it's just helpful to have a document. So we have it. That's great.

00:07:39,367	S7:
Uh, yes, I did include, um, because she's interpretation.

00:07:49,467	S7:
USB.

00:08:09,868	S7:
I can provide an explanation for that. Sure. Yeah. So that's a big that's a big of floodlight with a recessed, uh, LED source, and it'll have a 180 degree shield on it. We use that fixture because we wanted to have entirely down light without any glare for the members in particular and the public as well. So that'll be mounted on the side wall and focus down at the table.

00:08:34,267	S2:
And there's an additional shield that isn't shown in the. And do you have a cut sheet of that.

00:08:39,100	S7:
Did you read it. I did a simulation on

00:08:46,367	S7:
Yeah. That's it. Yeah. There's one more that. We just got that from the manufacturer, so it's okay.

00:08:52,200	S2:
And is that. Is that on file with the town?

00:08:54,267	S7:
We can we can put.

00:08:55,167	S2:
It on file. Okay, that'd be great. Yeah. Just to include it with the file. Thanks.

00:09:05,567	S1:
Just to be thorough here, I did look at our amended site plan review by law. And the purposes, uh, really are to address traffic circulation, public safety, public utilities, the environment, neighborhood character and appearance, and with respect to the environment. That site plan review bylaw does indicate that there has to be compliance with stormwater management. So I think overall, it's safe to say that you have satisfied the purposes of our site plan review by site, plan, review by law, and also the Planning Board can make the findings that are set forth in that bylaw, particularly recognizing that your grandfathered in with respect to to the buildings on that site and you have the CBA approval for that. So again, we can entertain a motion after for the site plan application after we talk about the stormwater management. And I note that the peer reviewer, um, was able to, uh, have all his comments addressed by you except one. And that was the second comment. So I would ask that you addressed that in as our peer reviewer.

00:10:32,200	S6:
Uh.

00:10:33,567	S1:
Is on the zoom. And so, uh, you have submitted a request for a waiver, uh, with respect to that particular provision, but I am going to let the engineering types fully address that and see if they can elucidate the problem so that the non engineers here can really understand what the actual issue is.

00:11:00,400	S6:
Hi Bill, can you hear us?

00:11:05,167	S6:
Hello. Hi there. Um, Bill, would you mind just briefly going through your review and, um, just that one comment that you said was partially unaddressed?

00:11:18,100	S8:
Um, with regard to the waiver.

00:11:21,300	S6:
Yes.

00:11:24,300	S8:
Okay. Good evening. My name is Bill.

00:11:34,167	S8:
Hi. Good evening. My name is Bill Ross. And civil engineering. Um, of Salem, Massachusetts, and I reviewed this project and submitted a peer review letter on the second. The applicant revised plans on the 6th of February, and we prepared a second peer review letter on the 14th.

00:11:57,000	S8:
The vast majority of the comments were requests for information, including soil borings and a geotechnical report. We needed a signed mass stormwater checklist and it was a discharge statement and expanded drainage catchments include buildings that were tributary to the project area. The applicant has provided all of this information. Um. The result was a larger infiltration BMP and um. They selected a different water quality device to give pretreatment prior to infiltration.

00:12:36,400	S8:
The one point that was not addressed is a small area to the south of the existing buildings, which is technically part of the project because the existing pavement is going to be removed and repaved. We requested that this be incorporated in the overall stormwater plan. What they have done is not accounted for the drainage running off from that small area, but they have increased the treatment for the rest of the project. The small paved area in question. Um, I agree with what they've said, that the area is not increasing, the runoff should not increase in the direction of runoff also should not increase.

00:13:22,100	S8:
The only reason I suggested a waiver is that this is to be considered part of the overall project. They are not providing the treatment to the Hamilton regulations. They're providing no treatment at all. If water us runs off into the grass area as it currently does.

00:13:41,000	S8:
So what they did to compensate for that, as they said, was provide additional treatment for the remainder of the project. Of course, we have done meeting the master requirements and having some standards. So our opinion the waiver did seem reasonable.

00:14:01,167	S8:
Um.

00:14:06,167	S8:
I don't have anything else specific. I've been happy to answer any questions.

00:14:15,167	S1:
Well, I guess the fundamental question is whether or not that runoff from that small area would pose any kind of environmental risk to either, well, to the water supply or, uh, you know, public health. And if, it's in your opinion that's not the case, then I think the waiver would be appropriate.

00:14:43,901	S2:
Would it be possible?

00:14:45,767	S8:
I can't hear you.

00:14:47,467	S1:
Oh, I, I said the question would be whether the runoff from that particular area would pose any environmental problems, especially any threat to a drinking water.

00:15:09,267	S9:
Did he hear me?

00:15:10,767	S6:
Did you catch that?

00:15:13,667	S10:
I don't think he's hearing.

00:15:15,868	S7:
Is that on mute?

00:15:16,767	S11:
Because it's read. It might be on mute. That speaker there.

00:15:28,567	S8:
There you.

00:15:28,767	S7:
Go. What do you want now? Give it a shot.

00:15:31,968	S8:
Yes, I knew that would happen.

00:15:35,267	S7:
Go ahead.

00:15:36,400	S6:
I already had a question for you about the waiver request. I think our question was essentially if then. Do you have any concerns about the runoff from the south side of the lake causing any issues.

00:15:49,000	S1:
Any environmental issue, or any threat to the water supply?

00:15:53,567	S8:
No.

00:15:54,467	S1:
Okay.

00:15:55,767	S11:
Maybe from a practical if I'm looking at the right paved area, this may be a question for the applicant, but it's, um, from a practical perspective because it looks like it's connecting to a gravel pathway also. Is it, is it. I'm not I'm not looking at the right.

00:16:11,267	S2:
It would you know, would be helpful is for everybody on the board to see where it is. Um, could the engineer just, uh, maybe share a screen and point to the area?

00:16:20,868	S11:
Sure. I guess the main question is, does it have to be paved? Could it be some other semi impervious?

00:16:27,467	S7:
Because where you're pointing, um, it's not the area in question.

00:16:31,100	S2:
Yeah, that's why I think it'd be helpful to show on the map.

00:16:35,467	S7:
Um.

00:16:39,567	S2:
Because it looks like there's areas where you're removing pavement. Um, but I'm not clear what area is under consideration. That's why a little bit of a just a quick tour of what the the issues are, which just help everybody understand.

00:16:56,100	S8:
That sense.

00:16:56,968	S2:
Yeah, I'm assuming it's.

00:16:58,100	S11:
But I'm assuming incorrectly, I think. Yeah.

00:17:00,467	S2:
I don't know.

00:17:01,000	S11:
It says removed.

00:17:04,267	S2:
Yeah.

00:17:04,567	S8:
I don't know.

00:17:06,567	S11:
So.

00:17:10,100	S7:
This is the where the existing fuel tanks are. And the fuel dispenser is um, and that is being removed. Being replaced with the above ground tank. So for environmentally, um, you know, condition, it's going to be much improved because they're not going to be refuelling over there, but refuelling If you go down over to the next page, please. Um, you know, we're providing the aboveground storage tank. And if you have the production system right over here and it's going to be covered, whereas this is where the existing, um, tank and pump dispensers are now. So all we're proposing is to just remove the pumps, remove the underground tank, um, you know, for vehicle requirements. And then we're just going to repave that area anyway. And this area just kind of slopes off to the south into just like grassed area over here. So it's kind of a natural country. You could call it like country drainage, where it just kind of runs off the road into, uh, you know, vegetated area.

00:18:15,267	S2:
And it's in a sense a level, a level discharge. So there's no point discharge. It's not a concentrated discharge because it's level paving.

00:18:22,000	S6:
Yeah.

00:18:22,567	S7:
Surface runoff to a grassy area. And it's just we weren't really defining what this area that's going to be repaved. It's, you know, how much they deserve as part of the paint on the pump.

00:18:35,968	S11:
So it looks about five by 20 area. That's well.

00:18:40,701	S7:
It's probably a little more of that kind of where the tank is. Okay. And um.

00:18:45,567	S2:
So the other pretty small. The other question is there's there's kind of a steep slope, um, just to the left of that area. I don't know whether it shows up on that plan, the topo plan. So you're not altering that slope at all. Is there anything you can do to, um, just assure that it's sort of a a level discharge and there's no risk of a point discharge there.

00:19:10,367	S7:
Um, well, it's just kind of heading.

00:19:13,901	S2:
Yeah, to the bottom left of that screen.

00:19:19,767	S5:
Right there.

00:19:21,601	S2:
So I was just looking at the bottom left corner of that page. The steep slope looks like the steep slope in there.

00:19:28,767	S7:
I just squeeze out. So even even that slope is a paved area that then goes off to another very large grass area right next to the paddle boards. It doesn't discharge into a water source like that. It goes into the large grassed area. That's like we use for like over 400.

00:19:48,868	S2:
Yeah, I'm just looking at those two little hatched areas that say container. Um, uh, and then and then the, the close, the, the contours that are very close together. Very, very lower left corner of the screen there. That's that's yeah. That's the area I was just wondering about is so there's no change in the runoff there. And whenever there's a steep slope, you just it's always helpful to be thoughtful about how the water is moving across that.

00:20:19,601	S7:
It's it's more heading towards like not towards these. This is like a little high point over here. It's only six contour, so it's kind of gearing it towards this way. Um down down down that road.

00:20:30,701	S2:
Okay. And not to the bottom corner of the pavement there. Okay.

00:20:38,567	S11:
So the recommendation from the peer review is that we accept the waiver, I imagine.

00:20:47,167	S11:
Yeah.

00:20:47,567	S6:
Okay.

00:20:47,968	S11:
Great.

00:20:48,501	S6:
Thanks.

00:20:51,968	S1:
Do members have any other questions?

00:20:56,567	S11:
Just that it was seemed like virtually experiencing the peer review process. Seemed like it was a pretty, pretty good one. It was then back and forth and we actually it's rare to even get a summary saying that you accept all the usually it's just a dead end. Okay, here we go. It's like up to us. And, you know, it was a nice summary that you gave Mr. Ross of the process.

00:21:19,601	S8:
Back and forth. So it was helpful to keep track on the timeline.

00:21:23,000	S7:
Yeah, the quick response. I appreciate the.

00:21:25,167	S11:
Job.

00:21:27,868	S1:
Okay, so I think the first order of business is to vote to accept the waiver.

00:21:36,000	S4:
So make a motion to accept the waiver.

00:21:38,367	S1:
Do I have a second?

00:21:39,267	S2:
Second?

00:21:40,400	S1:
Uh, do, uh uh, we can take a roll call, vote, or does anyone have any issues? Well, all in favor of accepting the waiver, say aye. Aye aye. Anyone opposed? No. Uh, so then I think we should talk about the conditions that Mark has proposed. And I would like to, um, uh, have your input. I know you haven't had a lot of opportunity to review these. Um, Mark assures me that they're quite standard. So, uh, if you have any issues with any of them and if any planning board members have any comments. We'll start our discussion. But I'll let you go forward with with what you think of these and then, uh, go from there.

00:22:30,300	S7:
Here's the first question you had with regard to this comment regarding number six. The regular inspection reports is that could that be or is that any personnel that's working for you like that in sending you those reports or someone on the construction team, are you looking for someone on the design team?

00:22:49,501	S6:
Um, I think that could be anyone that's regularly on. Thank you.

00:22:54,167	S7:
Okay. If you will submit a sweat with this application and then we'll be a designated contact for that. So we can probably bump that under his scope. Um, with that and then.

00:23:07,100	S1:
Mark, excuse me, could you follow up then and identify specifically identify the person or the the job title who will do those inspections work together to.

00:23:18,868	S7:
Send Mark. Um, yeah. The outlines or the what? They call that personal stuff. It's the project coordinator. Um, as part of the good there would be. Yeah.

00:23:37,100	S11:
So I wouldn't be too specific on the identification of the person. Usually it's a member of the.

00:23:43,000	S1:
Foundation and the title or something like that. Yeah.

00:23:45,667	S11:
Yeah. There's some. Yeah.

00:23:48,067	S6:
Is responsible to email it to me?

00:23:49,667	S1:
Yeah. The responsible party. It doesn't have to be a specific name. People change jobs all the time.

00:24:00,567	S7:
My question would be the post construction hours of operation for 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.. Currently, I expect that shows up on site at 530. And we start operation at 6 a.m.. We've been doing that for 12 years. I've been there for 100 years. And now, of course, it's been there. It's a matter of getting out and maintaining everything before. First, I've done this maintenance activity.

00:24:30,667	S1:
So this is like mowing the lawn. And you have not had company.

00:24:35,100	S7:
Starting at 7 a.m. just won't work.

00:24:37,868	S1:
Well, you have hours of operation during construction.

00:24:40,868	S7:
That could. That's acceptable.

00:24:42,400	S1:
That's acceptable.

00:24:43,367	S7:
Post construction.

00:24:44,968	S1:
Oh, right I see. Down at the bottom. Yes. Um, and you've never had complaints from the Butters about that. And so you're proposing.

00:24:53,667	S7:
We're very mindful of it. Like when we go out to the golf course, we always go into the middle of the property, and then we work out. So we're never close to the till after hours.

00:25:02,767	S1:
So you're proposing 6 a.m. two?

00:25:05,567	S7:
Yeah, that's our start time. People show up on site at 530, and then we just start kind of like getting ready for the day. But then we're operating on and off course at 6 a.m..

00:25:14,501	S1:
To what time?

00:25:16,367	S7:
Usually around 230.

00:25:18,968	S11:
It is kind of an interesting wording because it is a maintenance facility, but the exception is given to maintenance activities for the for the for the periods of operation. So it is I'm not sure it's even worth a note, like it's probably worth just deleting the the post construction condition altogether because it is a maintenance facility, right? The major concern of folks usually is the beeping and backing up of waste removal vehicles and things like that.

00:25:54,367	S7:
Not necessarily.

00:25:55,100	S11:
Lawnmowers.

00:25:56,167	S6:
The reason I included one of the about comments about noise.

00:25:58,701	S7:
Sure.

00:25:59,000	S6:
Yeah.

00:25:59,367	S2:
But historically or in the future.

00:26:02,767	S12:
I don't recall any of these.

00:26:04,367	S7:
Remember she was worried about will the new operation increase?

00:26:09,567	S12:
Okay. Right. She was concerned about landscaping. I didn't I'd be a little reluctant to try and rein in tightly the hours of operation. The facilities have special events and other things that would, you know, really impinge on that, I think.

00:26:30,801	S1:
Well, I think Pat's right. It's the beeping and it's the equipment and it's the construction noise. That would be the concern of the butters. And if you can attest that you've never had any complaints about how you operate normally outside of construction, then we will we will not impose that condition because it's never it's never been an issue. Would people.

00:26:59,667	S7:
Get better?

00:27:01,267	S12:
Yeah. I think I might just propose we eliminate eliminating it.

00:27:04,000	S7:
Yeah.

00:27:06,267	S1:
Because if I were on a bus or in any event, I would like the fact that you're pretty much done. At 230.

00:27:14,067	S12:
You are adding landscaping, so it's kind of like.

00:27:20,300	S7:
I just thought that was the final question. Well, another question we had was this is a detailed landscaping plan that we provide. We have people look at on a potential site plan to replace the new plant.

00:27:55,667	S7:
Yeah. The only.

00:27:56,100	S11:
Other condition I've seen.

00:27:57,300	S7:
Imposed.

00:27:57,968	S11:
Post construction is usually conditions related to the establishment of the landscaping years following construction activities, just to make sure it this is actually.

00:28:09,167	S2:
And I forget. Did you have to go for, um, this conservation commission? No. Okay.

00:28:16,667	S7:
So all the all the trees on this plan with the little accident are supposed to be normal. So what we would do is, um. When we work out the species with John, if we would identify, annotate this species so you know what's going on.

00:28:32,167	S5:
So I didn't.

00:28:32,767	S6:
See I didn't see that species on here. So that would be that common identify when you're playing with the French. Um, and then one of the other comments is just making sure that you maintain the landscape buffer. So my thought was to perhaps transfer some of these to folks looking to the northern east side, just to supplement that buffer from home. Safe for.

00:28:56,667	S7:
Sure. Yeah. She was and she I saw her like after the meeting she was talking about the golf ball on number four. She thought we were going to be disturbing something on the golf course. It's down to the bottom of the plant.

00:29:08,567	S11:
Just wanted to make sure a couple of those trees.

00:29:14,167	S7:
On the other side of the bunker. So you might not even be able to see it on this plane she's talking about further down like that was awful. Right there at the bottom of the plane. There's another buffer of trees for homestead, and she just wanted to make sure we weren't touching that. But we're not touching on that.

00:29:37,767	S1:
So have we resolved the issues. So Mark, you can finalize these conditions. And I think the outline of them has is is in place. But you can converse with Mike and we'll get these conditions finalized. And then unless there are any issues. The planning board overall is supportive of these conditions.

00:30:04,467	S2:
The only other minor detail would be to get the submittal for the cowl for the light fixture on file.

00:30:11,467	S1:
Right.

00:30:12,100	S11:
Right.

00:30:12,868	S1:
With those minor changes. So I think we're in a position to, uh, vote on the stormwater permit application as well as the site plan review application, subject to the conditions that Mike has proposed as modified by planning board members here tonight. So I think we should take two votes. The first were the site plan application and the second for the stormwater management application. So first off, I'll entertain a motion to approve the site plan review application subject to the conditions discussed this evening.

00:30:55,901	S2:
So moved.

00:30:57,167	S1:
A second. All in favor?

00:30:59,601	S11:
Aye.

00:31:00,701	S1:
And now I'll entertain a motion to approve the stormwater management permit application subject to the waiver, as well as the conditions that we have discussed here this evening.

00:31:14,100	S13:
So moved.

00:31:15,100	S4:
Second.

00:31:16,100	S1:
All in favor? Oh, hi. Hi. And when the snow melts, you might be able to begin doing something. And when will that be?

00:31:23,501	S11:
All you.

00:31:23,767	S12:
Have to.

00:31:23,968	S11:
Do is get rid of three.

00:31:24,767	S12:
Feet of snow.

00:31:30,601	S1:
Thank you. Gentlemen.

00:31:37,167	S1:
So the next item on our agenda is a discussion with the Board of Health, and in particular, with respect to the Groundwater Protection Overlay District.

00:31:59,167	S14:
Did you make a copy.

00:32:00,467	S1:
Of this model groundwater protection overlay district for for David and.

00:32:05,501	S14:
Greg.

00:32:06,501	S1:
I have yeah, I have an extra copy too. So.

00:32:19,667	S6:
Uh, David sent some materials to be the last item in your packet.

00:32:42,000	S1:
Well, just by way of background. So everybody is on the same page. Um, the planning board proposed an amendment to the GP code, uh, to, in particular to section 9.1.4 to Require 80,000ft² per dwelling unit for residential construction in the pod, and that has engendered some controversy because it does limit development. And in fact, there have been developments within the pod which have not adhered to that metric. And so I think it was Mark Johnson who appeared before the planning board and suggested that we review the entire bylaw, particularly because of new technologies with respect to wastewater treatment. And so here we are. And so in in thinking about this and, and looking at it, um, I stumbled across the model groundwater protection district Bylaw, which really was proposed by the Association of Boards of Health. And if you look at the copy that you have it, it's remarkably similar to iPod. Um, there was some information about groundwater protection on the Commonwealth's website, but it really was focused just on pesticides and really was not applicable to what we're dealing with. But this model by law is obviously whoever drafted the iPod was aware of this model by law because some of the language is identical. But the one thing that is not in this model, by law is a provision analogous to section 9.1.4. Which brings us to David and Greg's presentation about what title five requires and how that relates to 9.1.4. And whether that's a provision that we have in our bylaw of requiring 80,000ft² per dwelling unit in the pod makes sense in view of the title five requirements, which I would assume are deemed adequate regardless of where a house is located. Am I correct? So you gentlemen, please tell us what's going on and and about and also about these enhanced nitrogen removal technologies.

00:35:44,868	S6:
Would you like to start?

00:35:46,100	S7:
I'll just say, Marty and I've talked about this, and I think we collectively came to the impression that the state title five regulations are lengthy, complicated, routinely amended, subject to technology advancements, and so on, and I thought it would be a mutually beneficial if we came to a planning board meeting and tried to help give you some understanding of how the title five regulations come into play in the groundwater protection industry. And it's complicated. So Greg is our in-house expert. And any idea five concerns questions issues we have Greg is able to answer. So that's why he's here, right? I may be.

00:36:43,300	S8:
Able.

00:36:43,501	S7:
To answer.

00:36:44,667	S8:
Um.

00:36:45,567	S15:
I'll start off just by saying that the Town of Hamilton Board of Health has no Local um regulations concerning setbacks in the Groundwater Protection Overlay District. Um, it's really it's just been a zoning issue, right? 80,000ft² is the current requirement. Is that.

00:37:07,167	S6:
Correct?

00:37:08,767	S15:
Um.

00:37:11,367	S15:
I've, uh. I believe you guys are having a possession, some GIS mapping that I prepared.

00:37:19,868	S7:
And none of this is is from.

00:37:22,767	S15:
Any special website. This is all downloaded from.

00:37:25,667	S7:
The.

00:37:26,667	S15:
GIS. Um.

00:37:34,400	S15:
That looks familiar.

00:37:38,467	S15:
So again, those purple areas right there, the overlay district. Um, mostly down around Bridge Street. School Street on the right, and the other portion is mostly Highland Avenue and part of, um, Asbury Street, I believe.

00:38:00,100	S7:
Greg, it might be helpful to explain how those, uh, very complicated shapes were derived. What's the latest of that?

00:38:10,868	S15:
Uh, I am not prepared to discuss that because that was determined by the town and their zoning. I believe it's a zoning overlay district and how that came up. I would imagine that they consider that the, uh, cone of influence for for drinking water wells.

00:38:33,000	S7:
Yeah. There are. Hamilton depends almost entirely on the Idlewild Field. Wells adjacent to the Ipswich River in the far left hand corner of town. So those are the three wells that feed the treatment, the water treatment plant that provides the water that all of us drink. Unless you have a private well over at the right hand corner. There are two wells, the Bridge Street well and the school Street well. The street wells been out of service for a long time. That's just not used. The school street well was providing potable water for the town until the PFAS levels in the well rose to the point where they were significantly above the state's then current standard of 20 parts per trillion. Um, they have remained somewhere in that neighborhood, uh, while the state standard was reduced to four. So, um, the town of EPW took the school street, well, offline and started to study ways in which the water from that well could be treated to meet the for profit trading standard. And so for the time being that there is no water being currently supplied to the town's potable water system. Out of those, out of that school street well over there, right hand corner. But, um, it it will if the town is able to treat the PFAS levels and get them down to four. So that shape I think generally coincides with where the in the town in the state feel that water runoff going into the groundwater will end up at the school street level at some point and or the bridge and the bridge street. Well, you know, that's all behind that, probably indefinitely. So that's the reason that that's the reason why those two pods are what they are. And the shape I think is, uh, is it's derived from where the, the hydrogeology folks think the water running off from the surface into the ground, becoming groundwater, then traveled over to the wells.

00:41:07,801	S1:
Just as a as a side note, I believe I read that Weston and Sampson was the consultant used to to delineate the GPO date.

00:41:19,701	S7:
I think you're right.

00:41:25,868	S7:
So that's that. That's a simplified explanation for what you see on that chart of that matter.

00:41:37,501	S1:
And then we have the interim wellhead protection area. What why do they call it integral? Well, it seems like a weird choice of words to me. For a well, I mean, do you know.

00:41:53,501	S15:
I don't know how they come up with a name, but what I can tell you is that area has a half mile radius around the well, and that's where, uh, restrictions on septic size comes into play. It's considered what's called a nitrogen sensitive area.

00:42:13,367	S1:
So it's just the areas in the interim wellhead protection area.

00:42:18,701	S7:
And.

00:42:19,267	S15:
In the zone.

00:42:20,167	S7:
Two.

00:42:20,567	S1:
And the zone two. Okay.

00:42:21,868	S15:
So right now up on the screen you just have the interim wellhead area and that's, uh, Bridge Street. And the state has not taken that off. Its, uh, that sensitive area. You know, it's telling me it's, it's offline and these other areas here, it can't. This is what's considered a zone two, zone two drinking water supply. Basically, it's the same, um, reasoning behind the boundaries of the groundwater protection overlay district is another slide with the overlaid one on top of another. Right. And and they're almost the same. That's right. Just a discrepancy on the hydrogeology that helped determine the overlay district didn't necessarily agree with what the state is calling uh, zone two, but we are restricted to the size of septic systems in those areas.

00:43:21,167	S1:
Just those two areas. Zone two and.

00:43:25,901	S15:
Zone two in the in the wellhead protection.

00:43:28,000	S1:
Yeah.

00:43:28,467	S12:
Is it the size of the septic system or the total? Er you know, the total cubic feet of septic systems across any, you know, composite development.

00:43:40,701	S15:
Well, I tried to break it down as easy as I could. Septic systems, at least. Residential septic systems. They're all based on how many bedrooms you have. Right. All right. Um, so basically, it's four bedrooms per acre, and it's a builder's acre. It's a 40,000ft² for bedrooms per acre for standard septic systems. And the easiest way to remember that is one bedroom for every 10,000ft², a lot area that you have.

00:44:08,000	S1:
And this is just in the zone two in the.

00:44:12,567	S15:
Zone two.

00:44:13,000	S1:
In the in the interim. That's that's the that's the standard. So the planning board's 80,000ft² for dwelling unit. In some senses it's restrictive, but it could be considered almost irrelevant from a title five point of view.

00:44:30,868	S15:
I agree.

00:44:34,267	S15:
Unless you were intending to change the zoning from 80,000ft². So let's say 30,000ft².

00:44:42,667	S12:
Then title five would come into play.

00:44:44,367	S1:
Then title.

00:44:45,100	S15:
Yeah. It's in the same area as my. As the zone two in the interim wellhead protection district. A 30,000 square foot lot can only have three bedrooms.

00:44:53,767	S1:
Right. Got it.

00:44:55,667	S15:
But you did mention earlier there are innovative alternative systems, nitrogen removal systems. They may be able to bump it up to five bedrooms per acre, and at the most, six bedrooms per acre.

00:45:10,000	S6:
If they have a certain type of.

00:45:11,467	S15:
If they have a certain type of nitrogen removal system.

00:45:13,901	S1:
And then from from your information, then the Board of Health and Hamilton doesn't regulate that. It's the DEP will they.

00:45:24,367	S15:
DEP regulates it and the Board of Health enforces it.

00:45:27,868	S1:
Okay.

00:45:30,000	S11:
And the same is true of any greywater reuse systems, right? It's a CMR 85 or something like that. An application with the state generated from.

00:45:45,167	S15:
A dwelling is subject to that same restriction.

00:45:48,467	S7:
Yep.

00:45:52,167	S7:
Greg, could you communicate some sense of number to what you said? So here's a 400,000 a 40,000 square foot property with four bedrooms. Somebody wants to put five bedrooms on there and it's in the GPO. They're going to have to add a nitrogen removal system.

00:46:13,367	S15:
If it also happens to be in the zone two or the interim wellhead protection area. Yes.

00:46:18,667	S7:
What is that? Is that triple the price of a septic of the total septic treatment system or what?

00:46:25,267	S15:
Um, no, I would not say it.

00:46:31,667	S15:
Maybe a 30% increase Now, on top of the increase in the installation of the system, their maintenance requirements, whether it be quarterly maintenance or. Twice a year, maintenance depends on the technology. Most of these technologies for the first couple of years, they want quarterly reports and everything gets submitted to me and it gets submitted to the DEP. And after a certain amount of good reports over maybe, say, five years, they might be able to reduce the, um, the frequency of the inspections.

00:47:03,367	S11:
How many of those systems are there any in Hamilton currently or.

00:47:09,467	S15:
Uh, down at Brickhouse Farm on Asbury Street is one which isn't in the ground yet. Um, there are plenty of nitrogen reduced systems in town. I can't come up with an address right away because they have been in existence since before I started here. Was it receiving reports costs on okay.

00:47:27,868	S12:
This is different than actual sewage treatment. This primary, secondary and tertiary treatment facilities, which you would do for a larger development.

00:47:38,000	S15:
Most of these are secondary treatment. It happens within a tank. It doesn't happen in the ground. It happens before the effluent gets into the ground. Right. The secondary treatment units, the rest use the majority of them.

00:47:52,567	S1:
And what about like at Guantanamo where they had a wastewater treatment plant and that was that's in the pod. But just put that aside. If you had a development and they say it was on the large side and there were, you know, 20 or 30 units on insufficient land and there was a wastewater treatment plant. How would that work? Uh, I don't think it would be permissible in the pod, just applied.

00:48:27,767	S12:
As it is.

00:48:28,567	S1:
Now, as it is now. But would that would these alternative technologies permit something like that?

00:48:36,000	S15:
If they could meet the.

00:48:37,767	S1:
DP.

00:48:38,567	S15:
They could meet the, um, the, the water usage per acre. And if they have to use nitrogen removal to, to bump it up.

00:48:47,267	S1:
Well, like if you had a sophisticated plant the way they do it, uh, New England bio labs or even a, uh, Gordon Conwell.

00:48:56,067	S15:
They have it at Gordon Cromwell. Yeah, a particular system. Once a once a large system. And that's considered a large system because it's over 10,000 gallons of water usage a day. The Board of Health doesn't have any jurisdiction. Right? The state DEP has jurisdiction.

00:49:13,167	S11:
It's a groundwater discharge permit application.

00:49:16,000	S1:
And I wonder, you know, do they look at whether or not it's in a wellhead protection, a zone two or a.

00:49:23,367	S15:
I don't know how far back that Gordon system goes. It goes back to the 80s. Definitely not. Yeah, it goes way back.

00:49:31,167	S1:
Right. But, I mean.

00:49:32,601	S12:
If you were to build a new.

00:49:33,601	S1:
One, a new one today. Would the DEP look to see whether it was in a zone two wellhead protection area?

00:49:42,367	S15:
Change of use would would necessitate DEP to, to to.

00:49:48,000	S1:
To weigh in as to whether or not they would even let it let something go forward.

00:49:52,667	S11:
It's the same permitting process. It's just a conditional like we have upstream and downstream well, monitoring points that monitor the groundwater quality adjacent to the leaching field of the discharge facility and things like that. So it's the same permitting process regardless. It's just how many requirements and conditions they impose on you based on the type of effluent, the type of operation you're running, how much water you're trying to use and discharge, all those things coming to come into play when they're reviewing that permit application, and it's a lengthy process and it usually is quite a bit of money. You know, they based on its risk in the area and everything else, they may require certain minimum required operating like a certain certification license to operate the facility. That's a certain amount of hours per day, you know, beyond the monthly quarterly sampling requirements and everything else, it's pretty pretty robust and extensive.

00:50:54,400	S13:
Yeah. Well.

00:50:55,367	S1:
It should.

00:50:55,667	S7:
Be monthly.

00:50:57,100	S11:
Coming monthly and quarterly.

00:50:58,968	S7:
And I think it'd be worth elaborating still a bit on the project that this board approved at Asbury. Uh, common, um, with the issue there of the nitrogen treatment additions to the system that would work.

00:51:16,567	S6:
That was the zoning board application. But was it okay? Yeah.

00:51:19,601	S1:
Yeah, that was the zoning board. But still, you know, a comprehensive permit that can waive local regulations, but they can't waive state regulations with respect to a large system like that. Right.

00:51:35,467	S7:
And they didn't. We didn't waive anything. They have enough land area to um, I think they have a deed upstairs for it's 150 acres, I believe was what they ultimately purchased. But because they are in a zone two, they had to meet a couple of stipulations. One is you had to have the land area. They have the land. Secondly is because you're in the zone two and you're going to generate more than 2000 gallons a day, which they are. They're generating 9900 gallons per day. Another hundred gallons. That would have bumped it up to the state. So they played it pretty cute. So anyway, that had to be a nitrogen removal system. And it is. It's a recirculating sand filter. And what happens is uh, the waste, just like a home would go to a septic tank and treatment. Half of it goes to a leaching area. Half of it goes to treatment.

00:52:30,701	S7:
It trickles down to the bottom of the sand filter. It's collected and sent back to the septic tank. So it cycles and circulates to help remove the nitrogen. And B because it's the it's a it's more than 2000 gallons a day. DEP did have to weigh in. They don't have jurisdiction on it, but they did have to weigh in on the design and it was approved.

00:52:58,167	S10:
Right.

00:52:59,167	S1:
Any questions on.

00:53:00,300	S13:
This? I have a question. You mentioned that the DEP regulates, but the Board of Health enforces. So like the residential context for a nitrogen removal system. Hypothetically, I don't know if you can answer this because there's not it seems like a ton of these in Hamilton yet. But what would that enforcement look like? Like if a if a homeowner failed to keep up with the maintenance requirements for this type of system.

00:53:26,400	S7:
The first thing that happens when someone fails to keep up with it is the outfit that has been in charge of inspecting. It sends me a letter. Hey, Greg, the guy is down there at ten School Street, okay? They're not keeping up with it. So it starts out with a letter and a follow up letter. And after that, they go to sell the house. Usually they're coming in to, you know, the buyer, potential buyer, if they're sharp enough or they have brokers sharp enough. First thing they see is, hey, they haven't inspected the system in three years and an enforcement order can be given. But usually they once they catch a, uh, a whiff that there's going to be trouble. Yep. They take care of it.

00:54:14,400	S13:
Okay. Thank you.

00:54:16,367	S1:
Well, you wouldn't want to wait until they go to sell the house because they could be out of compliance for years.

00:54:22,601	S7:
True. So right then they're going to lose the sale of the house and.

00:54:26,767	S1:
Well. But that doesn't help the groundwater in the meantime.

00:54:30,267	S7:
Right.

00:54:30,968	S13:
The damage is.

00:54:31,400	S7:
Done.

00:54:33,367	S1:
Yeah. And and and what if they don't comply with that?

00:54:40,200	S1:
I mean, can you cause an eviction notice because they're.

00:54:44,667	S12:
Up.

00:54:45,868	S7:
Like that?

00:54:46,667	S12:
You know, you send a letter.

00:54:48,767	S7:
Um.

00:54:49,667	S6:
Notifying they're out of compliance.

00:54:52,167	S12:
Nothing.

00:54:52,667	S7:
And you stipulate you got 30 days to comply? Nothing happens. You send a second letter, certified mail, and specified another deadline. Nothing happens at that point. We go to town council and we ask town council to please write a, you know, prepare a letter on a legal firm's letterhead specifying in no uncertain terms. We know you're in violation. You have 30 days to correct the situation. If you don't. Here are the dollar fines that you're going to be subject to per day of violation. And uh, further enforcement actions, uh, can be imposed. So and it almost always produces compliance.

00:55:40,868	S1:
Yeah. In those, uh, regs, do you get a lien on the property if they don't pay the fines?

00:55:47,868	S7:
That's an interesting question.

00:55:49,100	S1:
Because you should.

00:55:50,267	S7:
I'm not going to go that far.

00:55:51,667	S1:
Right. But it should be a lien because then if they don't pay, you can force a sale of the house to satisfy the lien. That'd get their attention.

00:55:59,000	S7:
Yeah, we we do have that option. We, in fact, include that option in our septic loan program. We have a lean place on the property in the event of nonpayment.

00:56:11,167	S1:
Yeah, that's that's you. I don't know how you amend your regulations, but that's a good idea to always get a lien on the property. If someone doesn't pay, because then you can force the sale of the house to satisfy the lien.

00:56:25,467	S7:
Generally, the fines are enough to ultimately induce Hawaiians. That's my experience.

00:56:34,000	S1:
Well, this gives us.

00:56:35,167	S16:
In these in these.

00:56:36,167	S12:
Areas near the wells. I'm looking at that. There's a lot of existing development that is far, far denser than I'm afraid.

00:56:47,100	S7:
You're right.

00:56:48,367	S12:
I mean, you go down these neighborhoods and there's little tiny lots grandfathered. They're all grandfathered and there's no when the houses turn over, there's no you can't grandfather them or.

00:57:02,267	S7:
You can't grandfather them. But what you, of course, can do is here's here's our recourse at that point. Uh, Greg oversees the title five and spectrum that's required before you can close on the sale. That title five inspection report is a requirement of the transaction. He gets a copy and if he's satisfied with it, then they can they can proceed. We can't um, grandfather them obviously if there is any kind of a compliance, if there's any non-compliance, uh, determined by the inspector, that's the trigger, then we can impose, um, the condition that they have to have a compliant system before the sale can proceed.

00:57:52,167	S1:
Yeah, because it looks like Asbury Grove is is in.

00:57:55,567	S7:
The problem really is the fact that no septic system is is forever. They all ultimately fail and for a million different reasons. But, you know, sometimes that'll go on for 50 years. Um, sometimes only 10 or 23 routes have a way of invading septic system infiltration fields and wrecking them anyway. Yeah, that the grandfathered residences in those in that circle I'm familiar with, there's at least a hundred. And, you know, there's probably some of them are going to be fail systems. And we, you know, that that doesn't show up until a property goes up for sale and spectrum has to be collected. And I would add some thoughts to that. Yeah. Not only that.

00:58:48,567	S6:
Is anyone.

00:58:49,667	S2:
In.

00:58:49,868	S7:
Those areas that's filing a building permit before the building inspector.

00:58:56,601	S13:
Signs.

00:58:57,000	S7:
Off on any building permits, I get the application, and that's when I get a chance to review. All right. Where are they? Are they in a zone two? They want to add a bedroom. Can't do it. Or maybe there. Or maybe their lot is large enough to accommodate another bedroom. So that's when my comments to the building permit application is you have to upgrade your system. If you have a four bedroom septic system, you want to add a bedroom. You need a five bedroom septic system. If they've got the area they don't have the area, then I can't approve the application.

00:59:34,667	S7:
But that's a good observation. You're you're right. You're right on that one.

00:59:39,701	S12:
So what happens if ten years from now the well is getting destroyed, uh, or contaminated because of all this grandfathering?

00:59:51,667	S12:
And then then then the town has to come in and put a created a sewage system in that area and have a huge treatment plant.

01:00:00,501	S7:
So, so far, the monitoring results from that school street well have not picked up any installations of the coliform bacteria standard. For example, the only one that's been a problem there is the PFAS level. And, you know, we've done, Greg, and I've done an analysis of that. Well, and the, um, and what may be contributing to those PFAS levels, it is highly likely it's just simply the fact that PFAS is ubiquitous. And, you know, there's 100 residences there.

01:00:37,000	S12:
They're all doing they're all crushing plastic containers and doing everything else. Right, right. Cooking with stuff that's plastic. Yeah, yeah.

01:00:45,000	S7:
Yeah. And something that this has sensitized us to is the fact that we've got to get our DPW folks, um, to institute, along with the report, Belt Institute, a public awareness campaign of of an effort to sensitise the residents of those of that particular One. That the town water supply depends on their being good neighbors and not using pesticides or. No on, um, not dumping, uh, you know, half empty paint cans into the backyard, you know, stuff like that. It's just common sense things not not continually pouring, you know, Clorox down the drain, etc.. So, uh, we, we have to initiate that kind of a conversation.

01:01:37,100	S12:
But going forward, in terms of our, our own groundwater protection district, very low dense, I mean, we're kind of sort of treating this problem with a, uh, you know, a very big hammer saying, you know, the way, the way to solve this problem is just not to allow much development as opposed to if I'm a developer and I say I want to do a cluster development of, you know, 100 units on ten acres, and I'm willing to do anything to treat that waste. Can we design a system for them?

01:02:20,400	S7:
Probably. It's just.

01:02:21,701	S12:
A matter. It's just a matter of cost and. Exactly. Okay. So why, from the point of view of the planning board. Why shouldn't we allow that? Assuming that enforcement mechanisms and testing and standards are in are in place.

01:02:38,667	S7:
Because here's the here's the. As Greg likes to say, we start at title five and then everything kind of comes after that. That is the the really first order of concern that a developer should have. What kind of title compliance situation am I? am I subject to at on that property?

01:03:06,367	S12:
Right.

01:03:07,167	S2:
That's the first.

01:03:07,767	S7:
Thing. They want to know how many bedrooms can I get? And there goes, you know that that determines the price that they're going to be able to charge for that house. How many bedrooms?

01:03:20,968	S11:
So it's it's interesting because it's also not a town problem. It's a regional problem. Our aquifer is Essex's aquifer, as is women's as tops fields as Ipswich and everywhere. So there's a North Shore Water Resiliency Task force that's talking about not only supply but also treatment. Mhm. And I wonder like this is where those conversations are interesting. And I think there's some movement there regionally. Like when we declare a water band as Beverley also declare a water band because it's the same water that we.

01:03:53,200	S7:
We've had meetings about this and it's a constant complaint of the public. I'm required. I'm prohibited from sprinkling my lawn. But when I go down to Beverly or Salem in particular, they're all sprinkling my lawn. So what gives? Yeah.

01:04:09,601	S11:
But that's where I think that that task force is trying to look at this not only from residential but also commercial perspective. And I don't know, do we participate in that task force? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

01:04:19,701	S7:
Hamilton is probably.

01:04:21,200	S11:
Wise.

01:04:21,801	S7:
Hamilton is probably the most active community in the task force. And Joe de Mello, which is probably the most active member of that because Hamilton,

01:04:32,467	S7:
it turns out that Hamilton is kind of at the at the centroid of all of the feasible options for increasing our water supply resilience. And in that position, it kind of puts the town at the center of of of action. And a lot of the options that are being considered by the task force involved piping water through Hamilton one way or another as the as the, uh, the hub, the kind of the hub of the engineering solutions to the problem of water supply. And so, I mean, the good news is I'm surprised at how well the task force is, it's all because of Bruce Tarr is influence and making it happen. So.

01:05:21,801	S6:
I mean, I'm.

01:05:23,067	S7:
Pleasantly surprised at how well they're coming along with the progress.

01:05:26,667	S11:
I was impressed at her discussion. And then what if the pod mapping somehow is affected as an outcome of that process, too, with different imposed regulations and, you know, beyond the mapping itself, but other, yeah, type of considerations. And again, again, I think they're talking about it correctly and just the supply problem and the treatment problem. Yeah. It's a.

01:05:56,067	S7:
The the.

01:05:56,767	S11:
The.

01:05:57,367	S7:
The implication of that draft amendment to the regulation that you said it it um.

01:06:06,968	S7:
It's the low density development that you're concerned about and you could specify. You've got to have at least 80,000ft² or residents or whatever it is if you want. But there is. But ultimately you could the the development option that you are trying to regulate, I think starts with title five regulations and everything kind of flows from that.

01:06:38,868	S1:
Right, right. Well, I don't want to take up any more of your time. You've certainly given us a lot of things to think about if we move forward on, uh, trying to bring the body a little bit up to date with the new technologies. Which, you know, on the one hand, that's a good idea. On the other hand, you know, you think about our water resources and the lack thereof. Do we really want to promote a lot of development in Hamilton?

01:07:10,167	S7:
I think it's more supply problem. There's a treatment problem that we're dealing with in this town. But anyway, I'm pleased that our boards are working together. I think that's great when we need collaboration.

01:07:19,167	S1:
Right, right, right.

01:07:21,167	S7:
So thanks for your time.

01:07:22,667	S1:
No, thank you for coming.

01:07:29,100	S14:
It.

01:07:34,267	S6:
Makes me insane. I can't capture all that stuff outdoors. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

01:07:45,567	S2:
Everywhere. We don't allow that in our projects.

01:07:49,000	S6:
You can do.

01:07:49,367	S2:
It.

01:07:49,667	S6:
It's just more effort. Just like you can't use the.

01:07:53,667	S12:
I can't unilaterally, I think.

01:07:58,367	S1:
We can't.

01:07:59,067	S17:
Do anything.

01:08:00,067	S12:
We can't do anything. Have a round of groundwater production

01:08:05,501	S12:
overlay district whose purpose is to limit the use of water as opposed to ensuring adequate treatment. There's those two options, and I don't.

01:08:19,667	S1:
I'm sure if we tried to limit.

01:08:21,567	S14:
Development somehow, if you said.

01:08:23,901	S1:
It.

01:08:24,367	S14:
Can't, that.

01:08:25,467	S1:
The Commonwealth would step in and.

01:08:27,100	S14:
Say, no, you can't do that because they're pushing more housing, right? More housing.

01:08:31,968	S12:
You can't have.

01:08:32,467	S14:
A.

01:08:33,467	S2:
As a board. Do we want to discuss possible next steps on this process?

01:08:40,467	S1:
We certainly can do that.

01:08:41,968	S2:
Do we want to do it another night or tonight?

01:08:45,667	S1:
It's up to you. You know, on the one hand, you know, I appreciate why we have 80,000ft² per dwelling unit. I mean that.

01:08:57,567	S12:
Why don't we just ban development? I mean, yeah, no more. Sorry. We're running out of water.

01:09:03,767	S6:
We, you.

01:09:04,267	S12:
Know, the water we have is getting.

01:09:06,000	S1:
Well, it's a.

01:09:06,667	S12:
It's a it's a it's a no no, no development. Then you'd be and then you'd be in court.

01:09:12,067	S1:
But it's, it's not a, it's not a very precise tool. It's a, it's a, it's just it's protective. It, it, it, it will have the effect of protecting the groundwater.

01:09:24,200	S2:
Right now it's sort of a it's a random metric. Um, but what's what would be interesting I would think is just like title five allows for more latitude and, and has for a long time. Um, if you use the, the nitrogen removal systems, it'd be helpful for us to have that somehow in the bylaw in a way that.

01:09:48,467	S6:
Parallel.

01:09:49,200	S2:
Title.

01:09:49,567	S16:
Five have have.

01:09:51,100	S12:
Some table right. Which says if you just, you know, throw your old generic septic system in there, it's one bedroom per ten 10,000ft². If you do this treatment, it's two bedrooms per 10,000ft².

01:10:05,000	S6:
You have to be careful.

01:10:05,801	S12:
Not to get. If you build a fancy system and something you know you can do.

01:10:09,167	S2:
The planning.

01:10:09,567	S6:
Board.

01:10:09,868	S2:
Can't can't be engineers. So the balancing act is.

01:10:14,767	S12:
Well, wait a minute. I mean, it's site specific. I mean, yeah, a little.

01:10:19,968	S11:
Bit technology specific, I think because.

01:10:22,367	S12:
What I'm saying, what I'm saying is you have this list of technologies you can use, which is going to have an increasing price tag that goes with, you know, more in terms of treatment, goes to more bedrooms.

01:10:36,367	S2:
That's the concept. But you have.

01:10:37,868	S1:
To be, say, comply with title five.

01:10:40,767	S2:
Yes. Basically you.

01:10:42,000	S1:
Could basically. Yes. That's all you have to say. Yes. I mean, we could eliminate the 80,000ft². no, that's.

01:10:48,801	S2:
That's a different subject.

01:10:50,100	S1:
But that goes to two things. It actually protects the groundwater, but it also limits development. But if you.

01:10:57,567	S12:
Do it limits use too.

01:10:58,868	S1:
Yeah. If you were to just say any development within these areas have to comply with title five, they have to comply with title five anyway.

01:11:08,701	S2:
So I think we're we're kind of forgetting here is and this is beyond my, my um expertise. But Hailey Aldridge went through a study and they were the ones who came up with the 80,000ft². And it was 80,000ft² to not to beat a dead horse here, but it was 80,000ft² per dwelling unit, not per lot. That's how it was crafted. Okay. And so there was a there was a reason they came up with that number. But that was an older metric which didn't account for alternative, more alternative technologies. So I think one approach would be you don't necessarily throw out the number, but you start to encourage the use of the sort of supplemental technologies. And so that 80s, the 80s, the number, the starting number per dwelling unit. But you can have more latitude, um.

01:12:08,601	S12:
If you use more.

01:12:09,601	S2:
If you use more technology. So it's like it's like a density tax in a sense. You're not preventing the density, but it comes with a price.

01:12:16,901	S11:
Tag I.

01:12:18,100	S12:
Think more treatment, higher price.

01:12:19,701	S16:
Yeah, I think I.

01:12:20,601	S1:
I sent around a draft that I did and it basically said, you know, the metric is 80,000ft² per dwelling unit unless you can demonstrate, you know, compliance with title five and the use of some new technologies.

01:12:37,501	S6:
Yeah. So yeah.

01:12:39,167	S4:
Yeah.

01:12:39,767	S12:
So waivers allowed under.

01:12:41,601	S16:
Yeah.

01:12:41,968	S12:
Yeah.

01:12:42,267	S2:
So that's a great start. I would feel more comfortable if we took that draft and then ran it past, um, somebody who is fairly leading edge, um, septic engineer to say, here's how I would word that to make sure you don't get into trouble, that's all.

01:12:59,868	S12:
I think that would.

01:13:00,901	S11:
Be great regulations.

01:13:02,667	S6:
And.

01:13:03,067	S12:
That would.

01:13:03,367	S16:
Be.

01:13:04,000	S2:
And the.

01:13:04,267	S6:
Balancing.

01:13:04,767	S12:
Act to it, we would give them the spirit. And this is what we're kind of aiming for.

01:13:08,667	S2:
And the balancing act is just like an attorney, you know, an attorney has to decide, um, is the contract does it? Does it outline every eventuality or is it more general and boilerplate? Because if it's too specific, the thing you miss bites you. If it's not specific.

01:13:25,167	S12:
It's going to miss something.

01:13:26,467	S2:
So so it's a it's a tightrope act. And I would feel more comfortable if an engineer guided us through that tightrope. That's all.

01:13:32,100	S14:
Yeah.

01:13:32,367	S16:
Well, the the way I think, the way I set it.

01:13:35,467	S1:
Up was that we got out of the, the business and just said you could, you know, get a waiver if you establish this, this, this, this and this and if you don't and.

01:13:48,567	S16:
And.

01:13:49,667	S1:
Yeah, I wouldn't call it a waiver. But it also one of the other provisions that was in there is that any system that you propose has to be peer reviewed and you pay for it.

01:14:02,000	S2:
Yeah. So again, all of those are great impulses, but they need to be guided by an engineer.

01:14:07,167	S14:
Engineer.

01:14:08,100	S11:
The state.

01:14:08,467	S16:
Regulators. So we're not.

01:14:09,400	S1:
Actually doing any engineering.

01:14:11,367	S2:
No, we're not doing the engineering. It's just wording it so that you don't. It's just like writing a contract so you don't trip. Okay. That's all.

01:14:18,901	S1:
So let's pull that up for our next meeting that that idea. And then we can then.

01:14:26,167	S2:
You know, and.

01:14:26,767	S1:
We just got had a guy in here, you know, who's stormwater management, maybe he can opine on it. He's an engineer.

01:14:33,601	S2:
And I would think if we if we wrote the draft and, and send it out and outlined what the performance goals of it were, you know, you could almost you could accompany it with a narrative. This is our this is our goal. This is the purpose of doing that so that the engineer looks at it and they say, I see what they're trying to do. I see their words. Here's how I can help. So you can reduce the number of hours they have to put into it because they're sharpshooting it.

01:14:56,667	S12:
I think.

01:14:57,067	S11:
That later they're not trying to figure out why Amy.

01:14:59,100	S16:
Came up. Well, you know, I think that.

01:15:00,767	S12:
Works really well for treatment. It doesn't at all get into the question.

01:15:06,067	S1:
Of supply.

01:15:07,000	S12:
Of.

01:15:07,167	S6:
Supply.

01:15:08,667	S1:
But the bottom line is any system has to comply with title five full stop.

01:15:13,467	S2:
Right. But the idea of this is it's it's just upping the ante a little bit.

01:15:18,067	S11:
That's an interesting consideration. Like a title five is just assuming four bedrooms is assuming some water flow per bedroom, which may not apply with different technologies you might use for.

01:15:30,000	S6:
You know.

01:15:31,200	S11:
Your fixtures and water reuse or anything.

01:15:34,601	S16:
Well, remember.

01:15:35,267	S1:
The whole business with 133 ethics.

01:15:40,067	S1:
You know, their system.

01:15:41,667	S2:
So I've done quite a bit of work on Cape Ann, where septic systems are kind of like antithetical to the topography.

01:15:52,367	S16:
Oh yeah.

01:15:52,868	S2:
So it's a big rock with a little bit tugboat.

01:15:55,067	S6:
Right. Well.

01:15:56,067	S2:
So that's what Kate that's what that's what the island is. And there are engineers around who who are adept at this. And we've had many bizarre lots that you wouldn't think could have a septic system because it's solid rock and there's ways to do it. It does cost more money. But if somebody really wants that site, they pay for it and it works. Um, so it's just a matter of, of, of drafting it so that it encourages it. But it doesn't put us in the, in, you know, in the position of engineering it.

01:16:29,367	S16:
Right.

01:16:30,167	S1:
Okay. Well, to be continued. But I think it was very helpful to have.

01:16:34,000	S16:
A.

01:16:34,367	S12:
Good.

01:16:34,567	S6:
Discussion. Yeah, it was a very good.

01:16:35,767	S7:
Yeah.

01:16:36,000	S6:
Thank you.

01:16:36,868	S16:
Yeah.

01:16:37,467	S1:
Okay. So next up, potential grant opportunities. Now, I think this is just, um, what Mark is suggesting, and I'm going to let him talk. Is that we have to by the end of the month, um, put ourselves in a position that we can actually apply for grants. We have to meet certain metrics. And, and then when it comes to other grants like masterworks or whatever, then we're, we're in in a position to apply for them. Whereas if we didn't, I guess if we don't do the application, then we don't get to apply. Is that how it works?

01:17:15,901	S6:
You can still apply, but you you get points.

01:17:18,667	S1:
Yeah, you get points. You can explain it. You you know more about it than.

01:17:23,501	S6:
So before you.

01:17:24,467	S2:
Start, I have a quick question. Um, do we only get credit for things that are being built or also things that are zoned for more housing units?

01:17:33,868	S6:
It's building permits.

01:17:35,567	S2:
Building permits.

01:17:36,267	S6:
Okay. Foundation permits. So we can tell um. Asbury conference a big. Development on Asbury. Yeah. They filed their foundation at the end of last year. Uh, so this is a program the state has called Housing choice Communities. Um, and if you permit a certain number of housing units based on your existing housing units. So percentage of housing, um, you are eligible to apply for this designation, so

01:18:09,667	S6:
you can do as low as 1.5%. And then there's different as high as to like 10%. But in Hamilton's case we um. So as per comments big one that's 45 housing units that was building permits issued end of last year. We also have um, Menlo Flats, which was 2021. We had the effort that the Um, habitat for humanity project that was permitted. We had the last permits for the, uh, Canterbury development. So it's a fair amount of permits that we issued in five years, and it equates to 3%, more than 3% of our housing units that have come online or going be coming online very soon.

01:18:54,067	S16:
How about just, uh, just.

01:18:55,701	S1:
Out of curiosity? Gordon Conwell, have we heard anything from the AG? Because those 209 apartments could come online?

01:19:04,501	S6:
It wouldn't be within last year, though.

01:19:06,567	S14:
Oh, right.

01:19:07,167	S1:
Sorry.

01:19:07,667	S12:
Yeah.

01:19:07,901	S6:
Next month, the AG has to get back to us.

01:19:10,467	S2:
And wouldn't they consider those already existing or because they're being this sort of like a change of use from a dorm to an apartment? It's not a building permit. You're not producing it. You're just changing the use.

01:19:22,267	S16:
Well, they would.

01:19:22,901	S1:
Have to get a building.

01:19:23,901	S16:
Permit.

01:19:24,267	S6:
I have to be something official saying it's officially now apartments instead of dormitories. Yeah. Um, so I know things are happening. I know that they have a buyer. Joe, just have a meeting with the buyer of the apartments. Um, the AG has just a few weeks left to approve the the bylaws. So, um, things are happening there, but it's not quite.

01:19:46,968	S2:
And the deadline for this is the end of this month, this submission. And it says this is a one year cycle.

01:19:54,167	S6:
Five years actually. So so you get this designation, it counts for five years. It counts.

01:19:59,467	S2:
And there's not another application in a year. No. Okay. So time is now I get it. Okay.

01:20:07,667	S6:
Um.

01:20:08,601	S1:
As I said to Mark, I don't see any downside of this. I mean, it doesn't require us to ask for money from the Commonwealth, but we'd have the option.

01:20:19,868	S14:
Yep.

01:20:20,601	S13:
Mm.

01:20:22,167	S6:
Yeah. So it's. And this is already approved. It's not just sort of crediting the counts of things that we've done in the past. Um, and in this packet, it lists all the grant programs that you get. Um, preference if you do this and it's not just housing grants, it's also economic development. It's conservation.

01:20:46,400	S16:
Oh, oh.

01:20:47,100	S1:
So so I'm going to just jump ahead. But I have one question. And it relates to the util, um.

01:20:55,400	S14:
Uh.

01:20:56,200	S1:
Materials which uh, they talk about the public realm, uh, standards and guidelines or whatever. Would any of these grant programs enable us to get a grant to actually produce that?

01:21:13,000	S6:
So that's where I'm going. I'm hoping we can.

01:21:16,367	S1:
Great minds think.

01:21:17,167	S16:
Alike. Is that.

01:21:17,968	S14:
It?

01:21:18,300	S6:
Oh, yeah. I'm hoping that we get one of these academic building grants we can apply. Um, sort of. Step two of the town center.

01:21:27,267	S1:
Right. And see, the HTC did a MathWorks grant application, and I think they were almost finalists. So you could ask Rick Mitchell for a copy of that. And that was to do sidewalks and this, that and the other. But, you know, certainly, uh, you know, I don't know if they'd like us to crib off of it, but, you know, to do a grant application for the town center, they might have some of the work already done in terms of what. So these are required by MathWorks.

01:22:04,601	S2:
These grants are limited to brick and mortar type things. Not for planning. Is that right?

01:22:10,400	S16:
Oh, no. They could be planning.

01:22:11,901	S2:
It could be planning. So it could even. It could be planning. It could be guidelines.

01:22:16,667	S6:
Yeah.

01:22:17,367	S18:
Uh.

01:22:25,868	S1:
I mean, there are there are programs for the acquisition of conservation land.

01:22:31,367	S2:
Yeah, but that's still brick and mortar. That's a thing versus a piece of paper. So sometimes grants sometimes grants don't fund studies or planning. They fund doing stuff.

01:22:42,667	S1:
Well yeah. So so the math works is for doing stuff. Yeah. So getting the planning. Well, they have land use planning assistance grant.

01:22:53,167	S2:
Yeah. That's why am I just asking for clarification on that. Where's the where's the dividing line.

01:22:58,501	S1:
On page two it has that. Yeah. And I don't know where the.

01:23:00,968	S12:
Better.

01:23:01,567	S6:
The land grant program. We get bonus points for that program planning assistance grants. You get, um, prioritize and bonus points for fear of losing. Community and administrative, recreation, land, corrections and parks. Bonus points for that grant program. Match work. One of the points. Uh, C4. I don't think we qualify for the Copa. Um. MassDOT programs.

01:23:34,000	S6:
Reconstruction expansion projects that go through mascot scoring project selection program. Um, MassDOT will give bonus points for projects located in designated communities, complete streets, technical assistance and construction grants for communities, and get bonus points for grant applications under the program and the Clean Water Trust. Uh, you get a reduced interest rate if you're a designated community.

01:23:59,400	S2:
It's funny that they rank that lower. You know, a little bit of an irony.

01:24:06,767	S2:
Well, we don't have to decide what it goes to. We just need to be eligible for it.

01:24:10,000	S1:
Yeah. So. Well, right now, you know, we're considering whether or not we should move forward with getting, you know, having the opportunity to seek grants. And that's like, sure. Why not?

01:24:20,901	S2:
Yep. Um, so what do we need to do to.

01:24:23,501	S1:
I think we should vote to authorize.

01:24:25,300	S2:
So that's all we need to do.

01:24:26,167	S1:
Is Mark as our town planner to go forward with this.

01:24:30,267	S2:
Uh, all in.

01:24:31,567	S1:
Uh, so I'll entertain a motion to do that. Um, what what should we call this? Um, uh, to to obtain the Commonwealth's housing choice designation? Yes. Is that.

01:24:43,100	S19:
It?

01:24:43,767	S2:
But what we're voting to do is to authorize.

01:24:47,167	S1:
Him.

01:24:47,601	S12:
Him.

01:24:48,000	S1:
To to go forward.

01:24:49,601	S2:
To submit.

01:24:50,367	S1:
To submit that.

01:24:51,767	S2:
Okay.

01:24:52,267	S1:
For the housing choice designate.

01:24:53,968	S2:
Good enough to say so. Move to submit.

01:24:56,367	S11:
So.

01:24:57,267	S19:
Okay.

01:24:58,000	S1:
All in favor?

01:24:59,200	S19:
Aye.

01:24:59,901	S1:
Anyone opposed? No. Okay.

01:25:02,767	S19:
Next up.

01:25:05,968	S2:
Rambling, miss.

01:25:08,000	S1:
Uh. Next up. Next up. Um, master plan implementation and the potential formation of an implementation committee. That's up to the select board. Um, I'll fill you in a little bit on where I stand. Working on trying to combine the estate overlay district and the open space farmland. Um, uh, farmland. Preservation, development by law. So initially I tried to combine them and it got really complicated. And then I thought, I'll just work on the open space by law. And there are incentives for increased density. And since we only have 13 estate houses and I don't know if the patent homestead was counted as an estate house, what it is. Um, we only have 13. I don't think we need a separate bylaw for that, but I thought if if you have an estate house and you rehabilitate it or, you know, perhaps make it, Use it for commercial properties. If you can't sell it as a residence, that could be an incentive for some increased density kind of cluster development. The way the Open Space Bylaw was constructed, as you went before the planning board with a concept plan, and then you either went forward under the subdivision regulations with the preliminary plan, or you did a cluster development. And it seemed to me, I'll just pick a lane, just go forward with a plan and you'll get a special permit and you can do what you're going to do. You know, not this two step kind of approach. It seemed just cumbersome and it wasn't very appealing because nobody ever used it. So now I have a draft. It's it's only 19 pages and 20 sections. It might be Shortened, but it pretty much tracks the open space and farmland preservation development by law, which, you know, I found the source of that in, in in going through some things, I identified where the genesis of it. I found some, uh, uh, model bylaws. So, uh, I have given it to Amal. He hasn't gotten back to me, but, uh, I'd like to talk to more.

01:27:47,667	S12:
We also have the senior housing cluster by law, which is same concept.

01:27:52,367	S1:
Same concept.

01:27:53,100	S12:
Right. You mean all these are the same concept in one? You're trying to just preserve open space, period. The other you're trying to preserve open space, but also keep the grand old house around. And the senior you're trying to keep.

01:28:07,167	S1:
It was just a subdivision. It really wasn't a cluster.

01:28:10,100	S12:
But they all have the same, you know, mechanism, which is saying you get a density bonus.

01:28:15,267	S19:
For.

01:28:15,801	S1:
The open space. Yeah.

01:28:17,367	S12:
That's right.

01:28:18,167	S11:
So we did the same to a special permit application.

01:28:21,567	S1:
So I looked at the density bonuses under the senior housing bylaw. And, um.

01:28:29,100	S12:
I mean, you can have one bylaw which is a cluster bylaw and have it have several different objectives.

01:28:34,968	S19:
Yeah.

01:28:35,367	S12:
Save old houses. Yeah. Preserve open space. Yeah. You know, whatever else, uh, serve special needs of some kind. And

01:28:46,000	S12:
you.

01:28:49,067	S12:
Just say, you know which. Which one of these do you want to use? Yeah. You have to have a separate bylaw which overlaps. I mean, those bylaws all have a similar, you know, text to them in a similar, similar kind of why do you get this much density bonus for this much of that.

01:29:08,267	S11:
You mentioned there were 13 estates that fall within the criteria. I wonder if you even step back a minute. In the criteria that's set forth, like if you slightly adjusted the acreage, minimum acreage or square foot or year of the building, like if you you modified what applied.

01:29:27,701	S1:
You might get a.

01:29:28,267	S19:
Few more.

01:29:28,667	S11:
Could you get like 50 more or two more? I guess two. You know, like that you. Willowdale. That was the house on Walnut that was for sale years ago. The $5 million house on the hill that took forever to sell. Like, that's a that's a lot. I don't know. I guess I'm just curious what kind of land, what kind of properties apply. But if there's only like, if you modify it.

01:29:50,767	S19:
Yeah. Well, I, I.

01:29:52,868	S1:
Need to talk to Marc because first off, you know how much we're going through these motions. Okay. I spent some time on this. And then the question, you know, the real question is how many five acre parcels exist in Hamilton for development? How many ten acre parcels exist in Hamilton for developed. What are we talking about here? Maybe these bylaws were never used because there just isn't developable land. You know, a lot of the land. You know, I think about Devon Glenn. That's all conservation land. I mean, so that the, the, the beautiful estate house is in one ownership, but then some of the other land is you'd think would be available for development. It's conservation land or it's wetland. You might get two house.

01:30:38,801	S19:
Lights.

01:30:39,601	S1:
Two house.

01:30:40,400	S19:
Lots.

01:30:40,667	S1:
Of them. Three maybe.

01:30:42,000	S19:
If you were lucky.

01:30:43,200	S1:
You could cluster it. It would still not amount to a hill of beans. So you know a lot of the properties when you start parsing them, just like Gordon Conwell, 102 acres, what did it end up as, being developable after we took out the steep slopes in the wetland and the this and that and the other. And that's the problem with Hamilton.

01:31:01,200	S19:
Yeah.

01:31:02,367	S1:
So, yeah. What are we dealing with? That's the first thing, you know, we didn't really do the first thing. We just jumped right in. But, um, so, for example, you know, I looked at public benefit and senator, incentive incentives. So I have additional comment. Open space, senior housing mix of smaller units. This is right from the senior housing, by the way, off site, on or off site construction of affordable housing, energy efficient units. That's for you. You're going to regret leaving.

01:31:35,601	S19:
The planning going to you, right?

01:31:38,367	S1:
Reuse of an estate house, restoration of the estate.

01:31:43,167	S19:
House.

01:31:43,801	S1:
Commercial reuse of the estate house. So these were all incentives. But you want to make sure that the property is big enough to make it worthwhile. You know, five acres is not.

01:31:55,567	S19:
A.

01:31:55,767	S1:
Lot of land in the big scheme of things. I mean, I have four acres and if you come down on my property, you won't see any of it because most of it's way in the back and it's all wet. And if you want to go Lyme disease, you could walk back.

01:32:08,300	S19:
There.

01:32:09,601	S1:
And you would get Lyme disease if you didn't take precautions because of the herds of deer that lived.

01:32:15,167	S19:
Back.

01:32:15,367	S1:
There. So, you know, you just don't. It's not there. But we'll keep working on that. So our accessory dwelling unit design guidelines. So.

01:32:30,367	S1:
Jonathan, you mentioned the City of Boston's design guidelines, which I proceed to to try and print out. And after page 36, my printer just spewed out blank pages with a bit of text and I could.

01:32:47,868	S12:
So they really have they really have.

01:32:49,467	S19:
They really have.

01:32:50,200	S1:
My printer stop printing.

01:32:51,667	S19:
For life.

01:32:52,067	S2:
It's an enormous document.

01:32:54,267	S19:
It was not.

01:32:54,901	S1:
Bad.

01:32:55,300	S19:
Though.

01:32:55,601	S2:
No, it's.

01:32:57,267	S19:
Just it's kind of interesting.

01:32:58,667	S2:
Yeah, but it's obviously urban focused. But you can adapt a lot of the principles, and the principles can be adapted to.

01:33:05,000	S19:
A suburban set up. Yeah.

01:33:07,167	S2:
It's a good model.

01:33:08,167	S1:
Yeah, it's a good model. Yeah. So I think that we should, uh, maybe put that out, Mark.

01:33:15,767	S19:
Because I should.

01:33:16,501	S12:
Maybe get get your printer going again.

01:33:18,100	S19:
And maybe I went.

01:33:19,667	S1:
After page 36 and I kept I kept hitting cancel and I went into and I hit cancel and kept going and going.

01:33:26,667	S19:
And going. Jesus, Mary.

01:33:29,467	S1:
Where is a technical consultant when you need them? But anyhow, I like the way it was set up because it did have what it had.

01:33:41,167	S1:
Before all things fell apart, it had different designs and it had smaller lots, medium lots and larger lots. So it really and they talked about you could put it over your garage, you can put it in your basement, you could put it in your attic, whatever.

01:33:58,367	S2:
And the graphics and, and um, the words were fairly accessible. It wasn't arcane or difficult to follow.

01:34:06,167	S19:
Yeah.

01:34:07,701	S1:
So I thought that was good. So let's let's go to town center zoning.

01:34:12,501	S19:
And.

01:34:13,100	S6:
Traffic before on the master plan. It still is on the select board agenda. It keeps getting bumped because they're very focused on the budget and the override issues right now. But my understanding is it's supposed to be on next week's select for agenda. So I know their meeting tomorrow night. They had to bump it from Monday to the storm. But it's not on that agenda but the following pages.

01:34:34,801	S1:
And you know, in terms of that implementation committee, I know it would be hard to get volunteers, but you can have an implementation committee made up of town officials.

01:34:46,567	S6:
Yeah.

01:34:47,267	S1:
And and they don't have to meet very regularly. Just when something comes up.

01:34:53,300	S6:
Someone from finance I think would be good or capital because a lot of these things require money.

01:34:59,767	S19:
Yeah, yeah.

01:35:01,200	S1:
So anyhow town centre zoning. So, uh, we have the proposal from util and.

01:35:14,100	S1:
I don't know if anybody had any thoughts about that, but so yeah.

01:35:21,300	S19:
Go ahead.

01:35:21,801	S1:
Remember this nice chart that we produced for town meeting.

01:35:27,267	S19:
Okay.

01:35:28,767	S1:
Did you have a copy of this?

01:35:32,968	S6:
Um, I believe so.

01:35:34,601	S1:
Yeah.

01:35:34,968	S19:
Because that.

01:35:38,367	S19:
That.

01:35:39,767	S1:
You know, would be very helpful. So so I didn't have a lot of comments on this, but one thing it says meeting with Hamilton Planning Board and it says, you know, prepare for and attend up to two interim meetings with the town Of Hamilton Planning Board to review progress and gather feedback. So I my question in person or zoom. But to me I would like to meet with them when they actually have the guide produced and the handout material for the public.

01:36:20,300	S19:
Yeah.

01:36:21,267	S1:
I mean, you know, I don't want to meet with them before they have the product. What are we talking about?

01:36:27,667	S2:
Well, I, I that's my question is do we want them to spend time on a.

01:36:38,100	S2:
On trying to produce a this is a very short amount of time to produce a product, a hand, you know, hand out a document. And it seems like it would be more valuable for us to get some guidance on how to, how to, to sort of administer the, the code, you know, how you would go through an application how you would.

01:37:00,367	S1:
Well, so they say using an example, an example parcel selected in collaboration with the town, develop a graphic step by step guide on how.

01:37:10,667	S19:
Its.

01:37:10,868	S1:
Code will.

01:37:11,367	S19:
Be.

01:37:11,567	S2:
Like the most valuable thing in there?

01:37:13,367	S19:
Yes.

01:37:14,467	S2:
Yes. Not handout material for public use or public realm signage design guidelines, you know that.

01:37:23,367	S6:
So allocate more time than that.

01:37:26,968	S2:
We allocate more time to to 2.1 and less time to 3.1. Unless there's something I'm missing here.

01:37:36,868	S1:
Aimo was very much concerned about the public realm.

01:37:40,067	S19:
I know.

01:37:40,467	S2:
Yes, and but but the board the planning board can do that kind of on their own. We don't need util to spend time on that. We would. We'd be better served to create start a draft.

01:37:54,000	S19:
Or a guideline.

01:37:54,667	S1:
Agreed. Because I don't think that they could actually produce anything that was that worthwhile.

01:38:00,300	S2:
In eight.

01:38:01,000	S19:
Hours. Exactly.

01:38:02,100	S2:
You know, that's that's just unrealistic. A better I think a better use of their time is to really sharp shoot, uh, to the face to face to face time and some frameworks and guide us through the process.

01:38:15,968	S19:
So because.

01:38:16,567	S1:
This is the handout for the public.

01:38:18,367	S19:
Right. They can.

01:38:20,167	S1:
Critique this.

01:38:21,167	S19:
Yes. Yeah.

01:38:22,267	S2:
So we should be doing producing guidelines, producing documents, producing um handout materials. We need their expertise that and experience in how to administer.

01:38:37,267	S1:
In conjunction with that. You know Mark produced this right. You know, basically uh, application form if you will. And they should comment on that.

01:38:47,667	S19:
Yeah.

01:38:47,968	S2:
They could comment on what they, we produce. And, you know, maybe we call them back again when we do our guidelines, you know, if we do our.

01:38:57,067	S19:
Uh, we.

01:38:58,000	S1:
Have to spend the money.

01:38:58,868	S19:
Design.

01:38:59,367	S2:
Guidelines and, you know, public realm guidelines. Yeah. But for them to start that stuff that doesn't, doesn't, doesn't really.

01:39:07,200	S19:
Feel you're right.

01:39:09,000	S2:
As far as the public realm. The code is pretty silent on the public realm. So it's sort of a little bit of a vacuum. It'd be better for us to fill that vacuum, and then we can call them in to guide us through it. Whereas the code itself and dealing with things like noncompliance, anomalous sites, um, uh, you know, seeming conflicts or, you know, grandfathering in the process, that's where we could really use.

01:39:37,267	S1:
I agree. And, and and, you know, I don't want to talk to them until they can talk to us with these step by step code thing we want.

01:39:48,868	S19:
Yeah.

01:39:49,000	S2:
It would be helpful for them to come in with a sample framework. Yeah. Either a sample framework from other towns, another town, or a draft framework for us.

01:39:56,767	S19:
But we don't.

01:39:57,267	S1:
Need to talk to them about what we want. 2.1 is what we want.

01:40:02,167	S2:
Exactly, yeah. Does that make sense to.

01:40:06,000	S6:
Everybody.

01:40:06,367	S19:
I think. Yeah, I mean I.

01:40:08,100	S2:
I know animals on that page.

01:40:09,567	S19:
So yeah, you.

01:40:10,501	S1:
Waste a lot of time with preliminary stuff. Just jump right in and come in and give us how to apply this code.

01:40:18,868	S2:
Yeah. Do some case case studies.

01:40:20,267	S1:
Case studies. Yeah. Not just one.

01:40:22,267	S2:
Yeah a couple a couple different ones. Yeah. You know, and take something that's complicated that has contradictions in it.

01:40:28,467	S1:
Something that's.

01:40:29,167	S19:
Easy.

01:40:29,868	S2:
Yeah. Something that's easy and something that's hard.

01:40:31,767	S19:
That's hard. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

01:40:35,100	S2:
Mark, does that all make sense.

01:40:37,767	S6:
Yes. So assuming I get UTL to reallocate the time, um, and change the meeting of the planning board when they have the draft materials ready.

01:40:49,000	S19:
Yes.

01:40:49,868	S6:
Um, I'm okay to have the town manager sign something with the deal. I'd just like to get it going pretty soon, because.

01:40:57,367	S19:
Yeah.

01:40:58,000	S6:
June 30th.

01:40:58,601	S19:
You have to spend money quick. Yeah.

01:41:01,200	S11:
We don't.

01:41:01,567	S19:
Have to.

01:41:03,767	S6:
Do you decide to do it?

01:41:06,167	S19:
I think we.

01:41:07,200	S11:
Saved.

01:41:07,868	S1:
I think it would be helpful if we. Well, first I have to refresh my recollection about what the whole thing was all about. Um, just being honest, you know, to to really read the whole thing again and see what we adopted. Specifics. Not general, but really specifics. And then and then, you know, have them go through some case studies. I think that's important. And, and I'd like them to to comment on what you produced. If this the information you have here is such that, that we can then apply there, you know, if they're going to guide us through this thing, what what do we need in terms of information? It's what Mark produced a good start. Or would they add or subtract or whatever.

01:41:59,501	S2:
And then and there wants to be an order of operations. Um, you want to you want to be starting with the biggest picture first of analysis. Not like, you know, the style of a fence or something like that. You know, you just start with, is it conforming? Is it nonconforming where the building is placed, where are they not, you know, really big picture and then work your way through a decision tree. And we don't really know what that decision tree looks like. Um, so I mean, we sort of do, but it would be helpful to have guidance on that.

01:42:34,868	S19:
Right.

01:42:36,767	S2:
So I mean, if you think about if you think back about this doesn't isn't a great analogy, but it's a, it's a, an example of complexity that I don't think was handled that well. Is the review of 133 S6 application that sometimes started in the middle or at the end, and then went to the beginning and it was all over the map, and it did not follow a logical sequence, and it should have started with 8.1.12. Those are the first steps. And it did. The review process did not follow that. And that's not how you want to do form based code. Begin at the beginning big picture, and then work your way down into the details. And that's where the framework would really help us. You know, because I, I know they're not analogous, but but that's an example where there was no framework for the beginning of that review. And it wasted so much time, so much time.

01:43:33,801	S12:
On 133 we're looking at trees before we looked at the forest.

01:43:37,067	S19:
Yes.

01:43:38,667	S2:
So sorry to bring up that that sore point. But um, but.

01:43:42,901	S19:
I think.

01:43:43,868	S1:
Well, at the end.

01:43:45,067	S2:
There's a, there's an opportunity. There's an opportunity here to to create a framework that's efficient, um, helps the applicant understand and prioritize how to look at the information and helps the board prioritize and apply the information in a, in a methodical way. So it's not jumping around.

01:44:04,701	S1:
Is this a good start?

01:44:06,167	S19:
Yeah.

01:44:07,667	S1:
Is this the big picture?

01:44:08,901	S2:
Yeah.

01:44:09,300	S1:
So coming down to the.

01:44:11,467	S19:
Yeah.

01:44:12,701	S2:
But anyway that's that's where I would lean on, on uh util.

01:44:17,000	S19:
Yeah.

01:44:17,968	S4:
So could we take the eight hours that have been allotted to 3.1 and just put it on 2.1. And that would give us.

01:44:25,167	S19:
Yeah, I.

01:44:25,567	S11:
Think it's not for us to take account of ours. We just want to tell them. We just want to tell them what we would like to get out of the effort and let them allocate the hours. Absolutely, rather.

01:44:36,501	S4:
Than within that budget.

01:44:37,567	S19:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:44:38,767	S11:
Give them the goal of what we're trying to achieve and let them come up with the okay. Because then we're developing the budget.

01:44:47,100	S2:
So on the subject of 133 Essex D'Arcy was there, but there was a little celebration of, of, uh, the acquisition of 133 Essex and, um, and we got a nice call out from folks for, uh, you know, the work that we did on.

01:45:06,868	S19:
Did you.

01:45:07,167	S2:
Go? I did.

01:45:08,100	S19:
Yeah. It was it was really very nice.

01:45:10,667	S2:
So, um, and Chris, the point was there.

01:45:13,267	S19:
Yes.

01:45:13,901	S2:
Um, and so.

01:45:15,100	S1:
I guess it was good that just the two of you. Because if there were four of us.

01:45:18,701	S19:
We would have had another record out.

01:45:21,067	S2:
There was no formal, formal presence, but there was just a it was a nice it was a nice presentation of all of the, the folks who came together and, um, sort of looked at the property, evaluated the property, um, you know, just sort of a pulling together of, of various efforts and and the culmination of that was it. It bought Greenbelt the time to make the acquisition and.

01:45:49,267	S1:
Well, it gave the rich family an opportunity to see which way the wind was.

01:45:53,400	S19:
Controlling.

01:45:53,968	S2:
There you go to. So anyway, so.

01:45:55,567	S11:
It was ask if they were present. Yeah.

01:45:57,367	S19:
No no no. But but it was a.

01:46:00,601	S2:
But it was a it was a nice call out to, you know, to, to sort of a team effort to, to have a good outcome.

01:46:07,701	S4:
And there were people from Gloucester and Essex, Hamilton and Wenham. It was really good.

01:46:13,367	S19:
So the guy.

01:46:16,167	S12:
From.

01:46:16,767	S19:
Manchester. No, I didn't.

01:46:18,000	S12:
See anybody.

01:46:18,467	S19:
From Manchester. Do you remember Ken Whittaker from Manchester? No, I think.

01:46:21,701	S1:
He's from who made the comment. He, he was the. Do you remember the fellow from Essex. He, he I'll never forget it because I laughed so hard. He said first time caller, long time listener to Marjorie.

01:46:36,767	S1:
When he was making comments about the. I laughed so hard.

01:46:40,701	S19:
Because, you know.

01:46:41,968	S1:
He was following the whole thing. Do you ever listen to Jim and Marjorie on GBH in the car? Yeah, yeah. And they always have people calling in and saying, first time caller, long time Worcester. And that's what this guy from Essex did.

01:46:57,467	S19:
Cracked up.

01:46:58,467	S4:
Paying attention.

01:46:59,767	S1:
They were paying attention. A lot of people were paying attention. So anyhow I think we have.

01:47:06,467	S19:
Uh.

01:47:06,968	S2:
So if we so if I sort of turn that around and sort of summarize it for you till it's sort of, uh, framework and order of operations. Yeah. You know, is is a big deal.

01:47:18,100	S1:
And what do we do first?

01:47:19,767	S19:
Yeah. You know.

01:47:20,367	S2:
And how do what do we prioritize first? Yeah. And then what do we do when there's confusion or conflict or you know, non conformance grandfathering things like that.

01:47:30,367	S8:
So all right.

01:47:34,767	S1:
Okay.

01:47:38,000	S1:
Any further discussion, any any new business that we should. Anything on our plate? Matt, do you have your signatures?

01:47:47,801	S13:
I'm getting them.

01:47:48,801	S19:
Yeah, just about done. Yeah. You paid 25.

01:47:54,868	S13:
I wasn't sure if that was allowed.

01:47:57,100	S19:
Why not?

01:47:57,667	S18:
You weren't. Yeah, I was.

01:47:59,968	S11:
There you go.

01:48:02,000	S1:
You're gonna leave the planning for it?

01:48:03,667	S4:
No. I'm gonna fulfill my obligations. Oh. You can. It's legal. Oh, no one pulled any.

01:48:10,567	S19:
Oh, sorry.

01:48:11,467	S1:
Do you have your papers, Matt?

01:48:12,868	S13:
I do.

01:48:13,767	S11:
Wish you on a.

01:48:14,467	S19:
Paper.

01:48:14,868	S4:
I am going.

01:48:15,567	S19:
Let's go.

01:48:16,267	S4:
Let's bring a select board.

01:48:17,968	S1:
Let's close our meeting and let's center.

01:48:19,968	S19:
Yeah, yeah. Real big.

01:48:21,367	S18:
Laura.

01:48:21,868	S19:
Yep.

01:48:22,367	S18:
Yep.

01:48:23,000	S11:
I was leaving the motion.

01:48:25,067	S4:
Wilson.

01:48:27,367	S11:
Bill. Wilson.

01:48:27,968	S18:
Yeah. So do.

01:48:30,167	S2:
We. Do you want to entertain a motion?

01:48:31,767	S12:
I make a motion that we adjourn for the evening.

01:48:34,467	S2:
Second.

01:48:35,567	S1:
All in favor?