00:00:00,100	S1:
Welcome everybody to the Town of Hamilton Zoning Board of Appeals Meeting December 3rd, 2025. We have two projects in front of us to review and then some meeting minutes afterwards. Um, with this is Andy Phillips on Zoom and Steven DeRosa on the zoom, myself, Bruce Gingerich here and as chair, and Mark Connors from the planning Town Planning Group. Um, so two projects, the first one we'll listen to will be for Edward Tilley Junior. Property is located at 144 Gregory Island Road. Assessor's map 60, lot 52, Zoning District R-1. A the application request approval for a finding for the extension or alteration of a non-conforming use structure or lot to construct a one and a half storey vertical addition to the one to the existing one storey dwelling and a two storey mudroom addition. And then the second project is. The applicant is an owner is Kevin Lowe, 85 Sam Afonso Drive, Beverly, mass. The property is located at 957 Bay road. Assessor's map 24, lot 12, Zoning District R-1 be the application request approval for a finding for the extension or alteration of a nonconforming use, structure or lot to construct an office building with storage and a garage. An office building with four offices and on the first floor and three one bedroom apartments on the second floor, and office building with two storeys of offices and an accessory storage building. Um, so we'll just go in order and start with the 144 Gregory Island Road project. Great. And is that you?

00:02:09,701	S2:
That's me. Good evening. So my name is Bob Griffin. I'm with Griffin Engineering in Beverly, mass. Um, in the audience tonight is Mr. Santilli and his son, Anthony. Uh, Mr. Costello actually grew up in this, uh, parcel of land a long time ago, and, uh, well, maybe not so long, but, uh, has moved back and wants to improve the building for his family. Um, this, uh, portion of Gregory Island Road is known for, uh, very small lots. It's a 7600 square foot parcel. Um, it's only about 50ft wide, about 150ft deep. It does, uh, a but the, uh.

00:02:48,667	S2:
It abuts the water. Um, and, um, at the bottom, you can see there's a small retaining wall if you we just scroll up a little bit further. But what were you looking at? There is the Gregory Island portion, the Tobacco Lake portion at the bottom of the page. And as we're looking at the bottom portion of the plot plan there, there's an existing shed that remains as part of the work. There's a deck in the back of the house and you can see the septic system is there. The deck remains, the building footprint remains. In fact, this is we're going to save the bottom part of the house and just put a one and a half story vertical addition on the house. There's a little bit of maneuvering of a mudroom on the right side as you're looking at the plot plan, but it's basically working within that existing footprint that footprints around 1400 square feet in size. Uh, so you can see it's a nonconforming lot. It doesn't have enough frontage for the R-1, a district, and it's also a non-conforming building. It doesn't have the adequate front yard. It doesn't have adequate side yards. It does have adequate rear yards. And the obviously the the lot area is a little short for the R-1, a district as well. Um. Mr. Tilley also owns some vacant parcels of land across the street. Um. They're not. There's a garage on one of them, but it does provide some additional space so that he can do construction, staging on those adjacent parcels and not interfere with the, uh, the neighbors. And there's plenty of room to work here. And despite the small size of this particular lot, the, uh, the architectural plans were prepared by Timothy Sheehan Architects. And, uh, what you're looking at there is a picture of the front of the house from the street, uh, at the top of the page. And then below that is a rendering of the expanded, uh, building. Um, looking at the rear of the building from the water. And if we scroll up just a little bit more, please. Um. The opposite. There we go. We can see on that rendering, the, uh, you know, the existing ground floor. We've moved past that, but you could see that the the addition amounts to one floor of full size of the 1400 square foot footprint. And then as it comes up towards the roofline, the the top floor is really a half story or the where the roofline comes in and encroaches on those upper rooms. The building height is still going to meet the requirements. The building height is, I think, around 28ft, as measured by the Hamilton zoning definitions. So, um, no, no worries.

00:05:22,267	S3:
There because at all times, holiday pics and later on performances by Alex Haley and Mark Anthony, there was no center return.

00:05:33,100	S4:
Okay.

00:05:34,501	S2:
So so what we're looking at on this sheet is the are the expansion floors. So the attic floor plan is to be the top. And you can see how the narrow shape of the building at the top floor. And that's caused by the roof lines as it comes up towards the peak of the house. And then the, the floor below. That is the first full addition on the existing building, and there's three bedrooms to be constructed, along with some bathroom space on that floor. Um, the, uh, and then below that is the kitchen and the living room and, uh, there's some basement space, which is, uh, I think has a living room and some utility space in the, in the bottom floor. Uh, we can we can keep scrolling down. That's fine. You can see there's the, uh, uh, that looks like that's the existing. So I think we've gone past the proposed work. Um, no. I'm sorry. That's the that's the expanded front. Uh, the, uh, horizontal clapboards would be the existing, uh, portion of the building. Uh, and then the, uh, shingle sort of style would be the the new addition of the second floor and the attic floor. And you can see there's a little dormer up there where the 15 is indicated. So it's certainly a nice colonial style. It's going to fit well with the similar houses in the neighborhood. The house immediately to the right of the property, at 146 was a built in around, I think 2021 and has a similar style, similar height. Um, the the addition on this house will not block anybody's view or anything like that of the water. Um, certainly a a nice, uh, a nice architectural design. Mr. Connolly was able to get a letter from his neighbor at 146. This is Mr. Hibbard and Miss Cutts and.

00:07:26,667	S2:
It, of course, speaks in favor of his proposed project. Uh, Mr. Cantley also explained that he did speak to his neighbor on the opposite side at 142, and that neighbor has no objections to the project. We don't have any written correspondence from the neighbor, but he has reached out to his neighbors, as you might expect. Um, so with that, I'd be happy to address any questions.

00:07:54,267	S1:
The only area that I had a little question on was the mudroom. Building up of that kind of entrance area. Yeah. Is you're not enclosing any more space or.

00:08:08,868	S2:
No. In fact, there's.

00:08:09,567	S1:
Taking more space.

00:08:11,467	S2:
Yeah.

00:08:12,767	S1:
That it hasn't been built on before.

00:08:14,801	S2:
So the mudroom actually shifts a little bit closer to the water than the existing mudroom. But there is a mudroom there. And actually the the area occupied by the mudroom slightly decreases as compared to the existing conditions. But there is a you know, there is an entrance into the building in that area. Um, but we are shifting the mudroom a little closer away from the street and towards the water.

00:08:36,367	S1:
Okay.

00:08:39,567	S5:
Because this is existing, I think. Right.

00:08:44,100	S2:
The other interesting thing about the mudroom. As a result of this slight shift, we actually bring that side, uh, setback from 4.8ft into to five feet. So the slight improvement in the setback on that side.

00:09:02,901	S5:
Okay.

00:09:06,100	S1:
Any questions from you guys? Andy? Steven.

00:09:10,767	S6:
One thing from the Board of Health, it seemed that a deed restriction for the bedrooms was required. Is that something that the owner is aware of and would be okay with?

00:09:20,868	S2:
Yes. We were made aware of that request from the Board of Health this afternoon. And Mr. Cantwell is happy to file the three bedroom deed restriction.

00:09:32,667	S1:
You said the front deck area is not going to change at all. That's going to remain as is.

00:09:38,367	S2:
The front line of the building remains the same. There's the stairs from the street up to the first floor remains the same. The covered porch between the mudroom and those stairs gets a little bit longer in this with the renovations than the current condition.

00:09:53,000	S1:
Yeah, okay.

00:09:59,467	S7:
I think my my one question considering entering a story and a well, not really a story and a half, but a story in a in a significant attic space was just floor to area ratio. But after looking at the plans, the the yard does go back a little further than, than I thought previously. So I don't think that's much of a concern.

00:10:20,601	S2:
Right. And we do conform to the building coverage requirement as well.

00:10:25,667	S7:
Yeah. You're not increasing coverage right?

00:10:28,100	S2:
Right.

00:10:29,300	S5:
Yeah.

00:10:37,100	S6:
I have no other questions, Bruce.

00:10:40,100	S1:
Sure. Go ahead.

00:10:42,601	S6:
Oh, I have no other questions.

00:10:43,968	S1:
We have no other question. Okay. Is there anybody in the audience that would like to speak?

00:10:50,567	S1:
For or against anybody in zoom?

00:10:56,601	S5:
No.

00:10:57,567	S1:
I'll read this letter just so everybody has it. Because we just got handed to us from, um, Bruce Hibbard. We are the neighbors of Jason's to the Antilles and want to express our support for the approved renovations to the home. We have discussed the plans with them and feel that it will improve their home and be in keeping with the neighborhood. We are not able to attend this evening's meeting, so want to express our support to the board and hope that you proceed with approval of the permit for the renovations. Thank you for your consideration.

00:11:34,701	S5:
So we'll put.

00:11:35,968	S1:
That will be filed. We'll get that into the town and.

00:11:39,000	S5:
Put on.

00:11:39,400	S1:
Their Website as part of the packet. Um, I don't have any more questions. This is kind of a standard thing that happens around the lake. There is building up, um, all most of the lots around there face the same issues of just very tight. Um, as long as we get, you know, my biggest concern. Septic. As long as that's under control and. Yeah, um, in good shape. Um, I don't see any problems with it. Um, if you guys have no further questions and entertain a vote, a motion to vote.

00:12:22,667	S7:
Yes. No, no further questions. I motion to approve the project at 144 Gregory Road as presented.

00:12:29,601	S6:
I second that.

00:12:31,067	S7:
Gregory Island Road. Excuse me.

00:12:33,100	S5:
Yes.

00:12:34,267	S1:
Okay. Um, take a roll call. Vote on this.

00:12:41,601	S7:
Stephen de Roche, your I.

00:12:43,367	S6:
Andy Philip, I.

00:12:44,567	S1:
Am Bruce Gingerich. So I have 14 days to write a write up the decision, get it into the town, and then it's 21 days after that for, you know, if anybody wants to oppose it. Um, and then you're free to. Once you get that note from the town, we'll call you. Great. Free to go.

00:13:07,767	S2:
All right. Well, thank you all very much.

00:13:08,801	S1:
All right. Good luck with it.

00:13:10,100	S6:
Thanks.

00:13:15,868	S1:
Okay, project clean my desk here. Check this out right now.

00:13:32,801	S1:
Okay. The next project is for, Um number 957 Bay road for extension or alteration of a non-conforming use structure or lot. Um, so please state your name and.

00:13:53,300	S3:
To the chair.

00:13:54,167	S8:
Members of the board. My name is Jill Mann. My offices for Man and man are located in Middleton. I'm here this evening representing CMB. Construction. Here with me is Kevin Popolo and his wife, Peg Popolo, um, who actually are historic residents of the town and have their families still residence in town. Um, we're here seeking relief under section 5.2 for an existing nonconforming use to be changed or altered to a different nonconforming use. The section under the bylaw is 5.2. The lot itself, as well as the structure on the lot. It is fully compliant with zoning. So there is no nonconforming lot or structure. So 5.3 does not apply, but 5.2 does apply. So I think many people understand what this property is. It's currently used and has been used since some time during the 1940s as a motor vehicle service repair, um, either a gas station or a repair. There's actually been some manufacturing of parts for motorcycles, but in general it's a motor vehicle repair facility. The proposal is to alter that from an industrial use to a commercial use, a professional office park. Um, we respectfully request and suggest to the board that that change of use is actually less detrimental than the existing use of the property. Um, we if you want to go all the way to the top, then we can just look at the first plan and we can just kind of. I'm sorry. So it's it's exhibit A, which is the site plan. So it's actually, I think page 8 or 9.

00:15:39,767	S4:
Okay.

00:15:40,901	S8:
Oh, you can go there too. Yeah. Either way.

00:15:43,100	S9:
So it's the which one do you mean the full application with plans?

00:15:46,868	S8:
Oh, sure. That's fine.

00:15:47,767	S2:
Yeah.

00:15:48,567	S8:
That's fine. Um, so there you see, it's on page for the site plan.

00:15:56,567	S8:
So just as a brief overview, because I always think it's good to get everybody's bearings. This particular property is a 63,000 square foot property has about 107. I mean, it has about 375ft of frontage. Um, in in the R1B zoning district, the requirements are 40,000 and 175ft of frontage. So the lot obviously is fully compliant. This particular part of town um I'll see jumping back and forth then. So this particular part of town is located in a district that is has many different types of lots. There's an estate lot behind the property that is probably ten acres of land. There are properties across the street that are a little bit under two acres, that are also a large estate home with a primary structure, a secondary structure and many other structures. There are a couple of three unit condominiums in this particular neighborhood. There are many nonconforming, lots small sized and many non-conforming structures that, just because they predate zoning, have been built in a manner that doesn't comply with your current zoning. So what our proposal is, is to actually take out this building that is actually an eyesore. I don't know if you you know what, maybe honestly, Mark, maybe you'd be better if you go to my submittal because I have pictures and overview of what the building looks like now. I realize most people know what it looks like, but it'll be a little easier just to refer to that. Exactly.

00:17:27,100	S9:
Okay.

00:17:28,000	S8:
So if you keep going down, I have pictures of the actual property from 19. I have them. That's just the zoning bylaw. These are just the use codes. And then I have copies of the pictures. Um.

00:17:44,067	S8:
It's exhibit J.

00:17:45,567	S4:
There we go.

00:17:46,601	S8:
So this was just a copy of a picture. Believe it or not, that's from 2008. Um, so I just wanted to be able to give the board and anybody in the audience also the opportunity to look at what the building looks like. This is the current configuration. This is the current look. It has all of those additions still and historically had been parked with many vehicles in front, which a lot of the Butters who issued some concerns for this board noted that there are people who, you know, the outdoor storage that would be parking everywhere. There would be cars that were, um, essentially not usable in disrepair, littered throughout the property. So this is from 2008. Then the next picture you'll see is just from 2018, to give the board an idea of of how large actually the frontages and the fact that they're currently exist on the property, three used bays for servicing and then a service area where people can go in and and basically go into the service area. Wait for the cars. And then in 2000, I just gave you the most recent version also of 2019. That's the most clear picture. Just to give you an idea of what the property looks like. Um, there you go. So the proposal is absolutely to raise this particular structure and to add four buildings. Um, once we get through a point, I'm going to have, um, Brian Stein, who's the architect of record, go through some of the site plan components and then some of the building components just to show you the different architectural, um, design features of the property, which we have designed to definitely blend with this particular neighborhood. The design of the buildings, as you'll see, are, you know, very akin to what's traditionally built in Hamilton. They're they're barn like. They look like barns. They look like a general store. So you don't have anything like this, which is a very industrial face with absolutely no character whatsoever. Um, and if you go to the actual, um, site plan that was presented, which would be the very. Yes, keep going down.

00:19:49,801	S8:
Okay.

00:19:50,167	S10:
There you go.

00:19:52,567	S8:
That's the best one to use. The one that Bryan had done, because I think it just adds more texture. So you can see that there are four buildings there. All are compliant. So the requirements in this particular district are that you have, again, 175ft of frontage. We have over 375. But those setback requirements are 15ft from the side and rear property lines. And then from the front it's either 25 or 50. So in each and each building the frontage is over 50ft. Um, and meets all of the setbacks, which you can see from just how Bryan had designed it in. And to show you where the building envelopes are going to be. One of the distinct changes that are is being made by Mr. Pablo is to bring everything to the rear. The way you enter the buildings is in the rear, so all activity will be in the back. Parking is in the back. Everything is located to the back. Um, the outdoor storage component that was prevalent with the prior use is no longer going to be there. The front facing overhead doors are not there. Um, we won't have that heavy traffic that you have with a quick service, um, quick service business. I'll give you an example. So some of the, some of the concerns that the Buttars raised and we understand them, you know, anytime there's going to be a change, people get concerned and want to know exactly what's going to happen and how is it going to affect me. And immediately when you see there's additional buildings and you see parking, it triggers your mind and you think it's going to be more burdensome. But in fact, when you look at the traffic report that we did submit with this particular application, and I do have copies of it. If anybody who's in a butter wanted to see them. Um, there's actually a reduction of half the number of, of trips. So when you have a particular use in a property, some of the issues that come up are. Okay. So how many cars actually had been historically attending the site in the last year? That really doesn't matter. It's about what the use can generate. So what you look at is you look at the traffic impact of the current use, and that literally generates 176 trips a day to this property. When we convert to a building of buildings like this with professional office use, you don't have the in and out traffic. You literally have people coming to work saying every once in a while people leave. You might have somebody coming to the office, but that isn't even a heavy impact. And even with the, um, residents, you're going to have maybe 70 or 80 trips a day to the property versus, as I said, that almost 180 number when you have the existing uses because the existing uses aren't only the motor vehicle repair on the first floor, but also it has a three bedroom residential unit on the second floor. So you do have a mixed use property currently, and what we're proposing for that center building is also three individual one bedroom units, which actually generate less trips than A13 bedroom unit. Um, so traffic impacts are actually reduced by this particular, um, change. So some of the other components that, that, you know, the Buttars were concerned about. And again, I do have that additional information where the environmental concerns. So whenever there's a gas station, there's a service station. We all have the same concern. Was there ever a spill? Was it cleaned up? What about the tanks that housed any kind of gasoline? I actually have copies, and I'm going to give them, um, to the board. And I do have copies for other people as well. And what these say is basically that everything had been cleaned up.

00:23:24,167	S11:
So I'm going to just hand.

00:23:27,367	S8:
That in as well. There are copies of the plan that actually shows not only where the we're the um, I have a copy for you to not only was the property cleaned up when there was a spill in 2004, but also that the gas tank was properly removed in the proper. I wouldn't call it a bill of lading for this, but removal component was it's right on top. So here's the information for the fire department. And then in the back it's the DEP plan and the DEP report stating that the property was properly cleaned. And what I did was just give you copies showing that I gave three because I didn't know if whether or not the board members were going to be present. And then, like I said, I do have copies for anybody who would like to see it from the Butters.

00:24:15,367	S12:
Did this go to the town to to a billing department?

00:24:18,100	S8:
This. I just pulled these because I got the butter's concern relative to it, so I wanted to make sure. So I gave extra copies as well to Mark.

00:24:25,968	S4:
Okay.

00:24:27,868	S8:
And it does. You actually do get copies. So when you have the DEP file. So I think it should have gone to conservation as well. So it should be in your historic file. But who knows if it's the fire department though when they remove that tank, that gas tank that is in your files. And we just had that from the fire department showing you that it was properly removed and there was no incident at the time. And I think that was done in like the 19, 1989. Um, so those are the those were the concerns of the butter. We are we overusing the property now, the buildings themselves, the density component we meet. So you're allowed to occupy up to 25% of the property in this particular district. This this plan here occupies 19%. And when you look at the aerial, would you do me a favor? Go to the very last slide in my presentation.

00:25:17,167	S4:
Sure.

00:25:23,601	S8:
Brian was kind enough to superimpose our site onto the aerial. That was taken in 2003. So you can actually see this particular area. It I mean, how do you say anything in this part of town is densely occupied? I mean, you know, it's Hamilton. It's really there are very few areas that are densely occupied. But as you can see, the occupation and the relative comparison between number of buildings in the size of the lot is pretty comparable in this particular area. I mean, I can go through it like we know the owner to the north of the site, which I believe is, um, 965. They've actually issued a letter in support. I think the board actually has a copy of that. We did get a letter in support from 18 Gardner as well. Um, and then we did get a letter of opposition relative to the bottom was 935. And then across the street, I think it's 959. I might be wrong. It might be 954 because it's on the opposite side of the street. But we did. You have those in your file. And the complaints again, were is is there too much density? And our position here is no, there really isn't. So when you look at the detrimental impact, you look at the current condition, you look at what the general area is, and then you assess whether or not this change would be impactful. In detrimental, we suggest that it is not detrimental. And I'm going to go through what I believe to be the components for for assessing that. So firstly, it's a less intense use. We have an industrial use currently and it is going to a business use a professional business use, it's more restrictive. So a professional office building has much more restrictions than does an industrial use. You know you have limited parking, you have limited area There is a storage building on site which was noted by one of the butters, but it is accessory to the other building that's at the north, which actually is going to be occupied by Mr. Popolo. He lived, as I said. He lived in town for his entire family life, and only now that he's retired, he and his wife Peg have moved. But their children continue to live in Hamilton, and he's been a prolific supporter in Hamilton. And he continues to do that and would love to be able to convert this property into something beautiful. And he would love to bring his offices here. He thinks that would be a great kind of, you know, full circle for him. And then he does use the storage building to store fine items. It's not like he's storing, you know, bobcats and things that are heavy that require big traffic. He's storing things like precision levels and other precision equipment that he wants to have in a secure location near his professional office building. The center building. And again. Mr. Stein is going to go through that. The center building looks just like a general store. But I'm not going to steal your thunder. I'm going to let you do it, Brian. He designed him. He should be able to do it. Um, so essentially, we're converting this ugly building into what we all feel is more aesthetically pleasing. It's that general store look, that barn look. And that's what Hamilton's all about. I mean, you have multiple properties, you have multiple buildings on properties. And that's really what this will look like. Why else it's better for the community and why it's absolutely not. It's it's not substantially more detrimental is because we're taking all of the commercial activity, all of it, and putting it back. So you don't have people who are looking out in their driveways on a Saturday afternoon having a barbecue with the doors open in an industrial use where cars are coming in and out to get, you know, oil changes, transmission changes and tire changes, that's not going to happen. That isn't the type of use. And by the way, once we stop that use and we give it up, we can't go back. So you would be guaranteeing that this particular site would remain professional and not have that intensity of use. One of the other beneficial components to this particular, um, request is that it will enhance property values by increasing assessed values. These four buildings will actually require additional assessed value, which means increased assessment, which means increased revenue to the town in, which also means the general population in area round will have their property values also increase slightly because you no longer have an eyesore next to you with that type of heavy use, and we eliminate the possibility of there being contamination, in fact. So this is far better for the environment, which again is something that bodes well for it being more beneficial. It will have a stormwater management system. There isn't one now. And as we all know, that's that's actually becoming more and more problematic as the weather changes and as we get more density and people build, we need to provide for stormwater. This site will be designed appropriately with regard to landscaping, instead of having a building that just literally is unkept and has wild. I don't even know what it is. Growth. Things pop in through the pavement. Even this is going to be well manicured. It will be landscaped. And when Brian gives you an overview of the site, you'll see that we literally landscaped all the back to provide buffer to those people. One of the other comments and concerns and valid concern by Anna Butter was, you know, look, can we screen the entire front? I don't think you want to. It's actually with these buildings. Again, what Brian's going to show you is they look nice. So aesthetically you're going to have an improvement. So again I would strongly suggest that this is actually a substantial Benefit to the town, and that the change from this heavy industrial use to this professional use is not substantially more detrimental. Um, with that, if I may, unless you have questions for this part, I'd like for Brian to come up and go through the architectural and cycle components.

00:31:25,200	S1:
Yeah, let's keep going with that. And then we'll.

00:31:27,267	S8:
And if you have questions I can.

00:31:28,267	S10:
Pop the questions. Yeah. Go.

00:31:34,667	S13:
Thank you Jill. Brian Stein from Van Stein Architects in Beverly. Um, if you could maybe put the video on. Um, that's probably the best overview for for the project that we have. We did a quick kind of schematic 3D walkthrough, if you will, of the property. Um, showing each building. Um, and I can kind of run through just generally what each building is. You know, a little bit more than what Jill did. Um, but if you can hit play, um, we're coming from the north here and then turning into the property. You see the middle building there, which will be again, the three apartments above, and then, uh, four reasonably small offices on the on the first floor. Again, they have this kind of simple general store, you know, classic New England look clapboards. The building on the left is again Mr. Pablo's office with some personal, you know, garage space behind that you really don't see from the street. Um, also provide some parking in front and so forth. Um, so again, this is inside the development, uh, the rear of the building there, which will have the entrance kind of one entrance for the four small offices. And then there's you don't really see it. There's a door that will go up to the apartments on the second floor. In the distance there is a kind of just a barn, and we're just calling it the barn. It's another office space for, you know, most likely one. One company to occupy. There's basically one level and then a half level on the second floor, um, is planned right now. And then the building you'll see in the second here is it spins around is a again, just a storage storage building, as is, uh, Miss Man noted. Um, you know, it looks like a garage. Uh, for the most part, fairly simple building. But you don't see the doors from the street. You just see the gable end. Um, it's a nice classic, simple forms. Um, that, you know, front the street. And again, this building isn't even really seen from the street. Hardly. Um, and this will just go to a quick kind of aerial overview. Uh, like you said, we'll have a fence around the property. There's one there now on the rear. Uh, we'll have a fair amount of vegetation to to screen the buildings from the abutting properties. But, you know, you know, to us, this is an improvement over what's there. I live in Hamilton. I've lived here for 16 years. I've driven by this property hundreds of times and it is an eyesore, as we all know. And you know, Mr. Popolo really just wants to improve this. It's. I see it as a gateway into town from Ipswich. And, you know, you're leaving town as a, you know, another gateway towards Ipswich and you know, it should have this, this presence to it I think. And again these are scaled like especially the building on the left is scaled like a small house that could easily have been on this property, you know, for 150 years. So, you know, we feel that this is very much, you know, in keeping with the area. And, you know, what I see is Hamilton having lived here for quite a while and as a lot of people know that have lived here for a long time, Hamilton had these small little commercial pockets throughout town that were, you know, slowly losing, you know, the the junction being one of them that we lost a number of years ago to, you know, the condominiums that are there, you know, this area up here had a little bit of commercial, you know, Meadowbrook Farm. You know, had that little commercial use there. So, you know, obviously downtown and then I'm probably missing others. But, um, you know, I just think that the history of these small little commercial pieces is, is really interesting. And it's going to be, uh, you know, kind of upsetting to lose that again here. So, you know, I think, uh, you know, Mr. Popolo had a great idea in this, and just having this small little, almost village that, you know, was very in keeping architecturally and style wise with, uh, with the town and with this area. Um, so I'd be happy to answer any questions on the specific buildings or, or any other piece regarding the architecture, if you have them.

00:35:46,467	S1:
You're planning planning on planting. Do some plantings along the main road. I mean, you didn't.

00:35:52,067	S12:
Have them anyway. I mean.

00:35:54,567	S13:
Some I mean obviously like base plantings at a minimum. And yeah, we haven't fully gotten into how much we're planting. And obviously, as you know, um, if it if we get through through zoning here, we have to go to full site plan review with the planning board, which you know, will include, obviously, as man noted, drainage, you know, stormwater, uh, landscape as part of that, obviously parking, lighting, architectural designs, everything is looked at at site plan review. And I think that's when, you know, having done this, you know, not too long ago for, uh, you know, Willow Street, um, and some others, you know, the that's when a lot of the neighbor concerns with screening or what have you really come up. It's not so much here as you know. Right. So that's when a lot of that is addressed. And this will be developed much further for that. Um, especially the site plan, especially the drainage and, you know, the landscape. Um, we'll have to provide full photo metrics for lighting because I know that's, you know, whenever you have a commercial Development. Neighbors are always concerned about lighting and spillover. And you know, we completely understand that. So that will be fully addressed at that site. Plan review.

00:37:14,000	S1:
I guess my.

00:37:17,200	S1:
It's a nice project. It looks looks great, you know, nicely designed. And it definitely would help that end of the town as far as, you know cleaning that up. But it is a R1 B zoning area. And yes there was an old building there. Um, but being in front of the zoning board for something to create, something that's, you know, not detrimental to what's already there or more not more detrimental to the existing use and structure and all that. I mean, this is an awful lot of change. It's not just make it a little bit bigger, clean it up, do something different. And maybe it's a question for you, Mark, I'm not too sure why this project would be in front of the EPA, because it's so extremely different than what is there now. Um, why wouldn't it just go to the planning board for kind of approval? It will because it's a different it's a totally different use. It's not just, I mean, you know, changing the changing it from a small garage space, which isn't, you know, I question the amount of traffic that this would produce if it were in full operation, as it is now, compared to what all of this is going to produce. Um, it's going to be more I don't think it's going to be Really that detrimental to the neighborhood or anything? I think it'd just be kind of a it would be more, but not not greatly. I mean, I kind of come back to the, um, bank just down the street at the end of Bridge Street, uh, Institute for savings. There was a lot of concern about traffic and all that. And I drive that street every day because I lived down that way. And I never see a car coming out of there or in there. So it's not, you know, but that's just one bank. This is apartment buildings. I don't know how many office spaces, storage for equipment that will not stay in there all the time. People are going to go in and out grabbing that stuff to take it out, to use it, bring it back. A lot of moving parts in there, and I just feel like this isn't just a simple.

00:39:50,000	S1:
Recreation and use of this lot. Um, I mean, it's a good spot for it. It's 11A it's kind of nice, you know?

00:39:58,901	S8:
So I can.

00:39:59,868	S1:
Feels good.

00:40:00,868	S8:
I can address her.

00:40:03,167	S9:
Yeah. Do you want me to talk about process or anything?

00:40:06,367	S10:
Yeah.

00:40:07,000	S1:
Yeah, I think it'd be good to educate all of us, because I don't think we've never run into something this extreme.

00:40:13,367	S9:
So, um, if this were, like, conforming, lots of this were like a single family house, and they're proposing this, and it met the setbacks and all the other zoning requirements. They would need a variance. It'd be a harder, harder to get a variance, obviously, because it's non-conforming. The state law says that you can expand or extend a nonconforming use, um, through a finding of the zoning board. So this is the this is the correct process that they're following.

00:40:44,000	S1:
Okay.

00:40:44,667	S6:
And Mark, does it make a difference going from commercial because no one lived in this prior to having this be both commercial and residential.

00:40:52,801	S8:
So there was so there actually is an existing three bedroom residence on. Yeah. But yeah. So so this is honestly, I couldn't agree with you more that this is kind of a it's a it's a hybrid. It's different right. For for a board. You've got to get your arms around the process. And then you have to kind of get comfortable with the various uses. So I do have and I want to share this the traffic report which actually is in your package to see because I can't share it. I think it's um, the traffic is I don't remember what it.

00:41:24,801	S4:
Is on.

00:41:26,667	S8:
In my submittal, but the traffic we actually, before we even, um, started the process, we got an opinion from the, from the traffic engineers that the proposed use is in combination would result in less. The reason is I'm. I'll give you an example. When you go to a quick service motor vehicle repair facility. You have four bays and you have people coming in and out sometimes every hour. So if you have eight hours, you can have 24 trips times two, which is 58, because just for those and that's only contemplating every hour. There are other instances in which you have much more frequent use. So it is it is it is a very burdensome. Traffic use is what a motor vehicle repair is. So some people are looking at what the existing building did. You really can't look at that. You have to look at the use. So what the law says is this particular property was used as motor vehicle service and repair in a fully compliant building on a fully compliant lot. And what that means is the expansion of the building you can't opine us to it doesn't matter. It's just if the use continues, because as long as the building complies with current zoning, you can do it on that property without regard without permits. So that's why it is. Pardon me. I'm sorry.

00:42:53,501	S12:
I still need permits.

00:42:54,367	S8:
My building permits, I apologize, you are. Yes. You definitely need a new building permit. And by the way, you still need site plan approval. You can't get around site plan approval, right? But site plan approval is only conditional. It is not deniable. So this change of use. Right? That requires your approval. Because under the under the your excerpts. Right under under 5.2 and under section six of the Zoning Enabling Act 48. If a use is changed literally changed in character, which means I'm going from industrial to commercial, I'm going from a motor vehicle repair to office space that demonstrates a change. If all I'm doing is increasing my building and having my use stay the same, same character, It's still motor vehicle repair. Same use, same effect on the neighborhood because it's the same ability to generate traffic that does not require any type of relief. But this one does. And that's why I think maybe you're more used to seeing changes, like you just had non-conforming structures and structures and lots, right? Because it's pretty odd even I think. So in my practice. It's odd that you see a fully compliant, lot, fully compliant structure and a nonconforming use. Usually they go hand in hand, but not in this case. So what our requirement is, is to show you we have the you know, what is the existing use motor vehicle repair. What is the burden 176 trips a day. What is the new use professional office. What's that burden? It could be as many as 80 trips a day. It could be a little more than that. But it's not in the hundreds. It's literally half. And the reason is think about. Think about your perfect example. You said with the bank. Now, by the way, we don't have a bank here because you have to get a permit for a drive through. But a bank, nobody goes there anymore, right? It's very infrequent unless you have an ATM or a drive thru. If you have a physical bank, it's very few people go. Um, office space. You know, now people do real estate closings. They go out to do them. They don't even do them in their own offices anymore. Um, architects, half the time you do everything by zoom now. You know, I hate to say it, but the Covid effect had the effect of making professional office space very, very low intensity use. So that's why you see these numbers. And by the way, the IT numbers don't even reflect that. These are existing numbers from years past. This is this doesn't even mark that. So even though we have more parking on this particular site, it's because it's static when it comes to professional office use. You come in. You stay. Maybe you leave for lunch. I don't know, you have a lot of places you could go in Hamilton. Maybe you stay and you have lunch there. That's why it's so low impact. And with regard to the apartments above, because they're one bedroom units. That's why it generates so little traffic. Because they're one bedroom units. You expect maybe one person. Usually it won't go to two because they're very small units. Um, but does that help a little bit? Explain why it's it seems like it's a lot of burden because it's the site plan component.

00:46:06,467	S1:
Yeah. No, it definitely helps to clear that up a little bit.

00:46:09,200	S4:
Yeah.

00:46:09,868	S1:
As far as understanding that, um.

00:46:18,667	S1:
So why why was it six, seven garages in there? Sure. And a storage building. I mean, it seems like it's.

00:46:28,601	S8:
So the storage building is just so they can get in and out, and. And that's why they have the overhead doors, the building I call a building for in the back. And then with regard to the building in front. Um, Mr. Popolo sometimes has exotic cars and he likes to park them in there. They're not. It's not for public storage purposes at all. And it's not for heavy equipment either. It's really if he comes to the building and he has one of his cars, he wants to park it inside. Um, it's no public use and we would represent us to that as well, that all of the storage is accessory to the existing offices and nothing is rented to the public. Nothing.

00:47:11,567	S8:
And I think some of it too, was to break up some facade, because there are a lot of like directly across the street. It's a beautiful property, by the way, directly across the street. I think it's um, is it. 948 968 it's a beautiful building. It has a beautiful older home. It probably was from the 1800s. And then they have, um, a four, four bay garages, like two with a residence on top and then a big garage next to. It's beautiful.

00:47:38,000	S12:
So we know that one.

00:47:39,767	S1:
It's lovely.

00:47:41,367	S8:
Yeah. So you know. I think when Mr. Stein was designing, he was trying to look around and see what was reflective of the neighborhood. So I think sometimes we put in garage doors also because that kind of reflects this, reflective of the neighborhood. Um, and even next door, if you here's our property and then you go north and I think that's 965, right? Yeah. Odd numbers. I'm telling you. I try to remember odd and even on each side of the street. 965 it's it's a beautiful antique home. I think it's from the 1700s. It's it's got a big.

00:48:16,300	S4:
Big.

00:48:17,100	S8:
Long, um, storage. You can even go to the last page in my supplement and you'll see it's a long storage building. And again, kind of in keeping with that, but it's sort of that historic appeal where you have multiple structures on one lot that serve different, different, um, purposes, I suppose, you know, storage, being able to tinker out there. And that's what we were trying to reflect. And also there's a mr. Pablo is not doing this as like a big money, money grab venture. He's just not he's doing it to be able to have his offices here, because he wants to get rid of that building because he thinks it's better. I think his son lives not half a mile away. I don't even think he's that far away. He lives on Gardner Street. Um, and but it has to be economically viable. So we're putting the buildings there? Yes. We're retaining the residences, you know, the one bedrooms. But that's actually a good thing in terms of, you know, current market. Right. And then demand need, um, and it's kind of in keeping with the kind of attitude of what land use development should be. Um, so I think all of that has come into play with why he's designed the buildings as he has them.

00:49:36,567	S9:
I think one of the reasons Bruce brought it up is because for any use in Hamilton, if you want to do more than four or more garage spaces, it requires a special permit from the zoning board. You're kind of getting around that because of the finding process, but, um, it's not something even for single family uses that's permitted by right it.

00:49:56,167	S8:
Right. I did know that for when it's single family, because they want to make sure you don't have a commercial use on the side. That's how it actually originally was generated right here. Um, it's clearly commercial, but we will put a restriction on. Um, do you want to go? Do you want to go to the, um, the plans that show the different buildings? Um, yeah. No, there were actual architectural, you know, we have all the renderings. I think it was on. It's like pages 32, I think, in my submittal.

00:50:30,767	S6:
What was that back building being used for the one that looked like it had the gate on it.

00:50:34,767	S8:
Sure. So that's the building that actually is that high, those high end tools. So there's, um. I'll just say it. There's a lot of theft of that kind of thing. So what they are are these, um, Mr. Pablo and Brian probably can explain it better than I, but they have specialized tools, like you have certain GIS mapping tools. You have these levels that are really detailed in there, mechanical or electric? I don't know how to say it.

00:51:02,767	S13:
Yeah. It's smaller equipment. It's used on.

00:51:05,267	S4:
Sites.

00:51:05,868	S8:
Right. It's so it's that's why I say so. It's small equipment, but it's very, um, uh, I guess new age equipment. It's very expensive equipment. And they want to be able to keep it in a secure location and not keep it, you know, in a, in a work trailer sometimes. But it's not like people will come in and out every day. They're going to come, they're going to take it, they're going to bring them to jobs. Some of the guys will keep them in the trucks. I think there's a lot of that going back and forth. But in general, they don't just want things lying when the site's not active. So I see so it's one, 2345, six um, garage bays on the back one.

00:51:43,000	S4:
And then those are private.

00:51:44,100	S8:
2456. Again. Four, five.

00:51:50,868	S1:
And those will be accessed more by employees.

00:51:55,701	S8:
Only. By employees. Yeah, yeah. No public use. Um, you know, we were even toying.

00:52:01,267	S4:
With there's more.

00:52:02,167	S1:
More people coming and going.

00:52:03,901	S4:
Grabbing tools.

00:52:05,100	S1:
Each morning and.

00:52:06,000	S8:
No, it's not, it's. Yeah, I know what you mean. In is the potential for that. Right. So and I again I understand why a Butters can say oh my gosh. You know you've visioned the parade of horribles like what bad things can happen. I mean, we're more than willing to represent that. That's not going to happen every day. I don't know what the exact process would be for getting tools out of it, but it isn't a daily. Oh, I need to grab this. It's. Oh, my God, we need this. Okay, get it for the job. You know, somebody goes, picks it up and goes. But it isn't intended to be, you know, a general store for his workers.

00:52:39,601	S4:
I can just.

00:52:40,667	S14:
Call. We have.

00:52:42,501	S15:
Would you mind. Would you mind.

00:52:45,267	S8:
If I could.

00:52:45,801	S4:
Say your name? Say who you are.

00:52:47,000	S1:
And.

00:52:49,267	S16:
I'm not talking.

00:52:54,868	S14:
Hi, I'm Kevin Popolo. Pleasure to meet you guys. Most of the stuff that's going to go in that garage. I own a company called Construction Management Builders. We do commercial work. So in, in over the 20 states we work in our headquarters happens to be in the Beverly, Cherry Hill Industrial Park, and it's 30 zero zero zero feet of office space. We have 39 to 50 projects going at all time. And the things we're talking about right now, we store in our trailer, which we've donated to the public Twice in three years. And for hundreds of thousands of dollars of losses. So levels any type of equipment. But we don't use them daily. If we assign it to a project, it could be at a project for nine months to two years. But as they go in and out, they have to have a place to be born, stayed caged, inventoried and done. From my standpoint, the front office armory, I am separating myself in one stage from the business and my office will be there for personal use as I try to do some fun stuff like this and think I can make an impact, which is pretty much what my goal is.

00:54:10,567	S4:
Okay.

00:54:12,767	S14:
Anything else?

00:54:18,100	S1:
Any guys have any questions?

00:54:22,767	S6:
I'll sure, I'll share my $0.02. So from what I hear, it's going to be the developer having an office there. There'll be another business able to rent their storage for the developers. Other businesses that's going to be there. And then three single bedrooms, three single bedroom apartments to be rented. And I totally get what Miss Man is saying about the business use, because I've gotten my car inspected and it's a madhouse getting in and out of the driveways there. Even the one in Hamilton, like right by the post, people park on the side, which I didn't realize you did, but you do. And that causes its own little traffic jam. So this all makes sense to me. I think, Miss Man, you did a great job of explaining it all. I guess my only question would be For Bruce and Steven. And Marc, if Marc can help us in this conversation. Is is everyone's concerned that it feels so much bigger. Or is there a concern that it that we are. That they are not meeting the requirements within the bylaws? Because it does feel bigger, but it feels like it's also within the bylaws for us to approve it and then go to the planning board and let the planning Board decide any requirements. And as a side note, if we would in this decision making, if we agree to move forward, if we would ask that the applicant come back to us so that the neighbors would be able to come in and say, let's talk about landscaping, let's talk about fences, because we do help mediate. It's not our favorite, but we do help mediate those conversations sometimes with the Butters.

00:56:25,601	S8:
And I will tell you that the site plan approval process is a public hearing that we have to notify all the butters so they will come to that meeting. They will have input, and my guess is your planning board will actually say, you know what? We want more. We want more of this. We want more of that. We want dark sky fixtures. So we don't we can come back here to just give you the plan and show you. But those butters are going to have a loud, a loud voice at planning. They will. So I don't think you have to be concerned about that. I just wanted to make sure you knew that they would be given the opportunity and every bite of that apple.

00:56:59,567	S6:
Yeah. So my, my, my overall summary is I think this sounds if you two also agree then I would be able I would be comfortable setting a motion.

00:57:11,167	S1:
Well let's first hear from a Butters. Speaking of a.

00:57:13,901	S4:
Butters, um.

00:57:16,667	S7:
Let's just chime in to say that one of the questions I have is closely related to that, which is whether or not the scope of what we're considering involves the scale, right? It's going to a site plan review. And we heard earlier about the difference of whether there's approval or conditions. Right. So if it's just conditions, um, do those conditions involve scale. And therefore if we're considering this and it's its impact on the community, whether it's some substantially more or less detrimental to the neighborhood, are we consider scale in that or are we just considering the use.

00:57:55,467	S8:
May I?

00:57:56,868	S7:
Yes. Yes please.

00:57:58,400	S8:
So you don't you don't really consider scale. You do consider total impact. So when we show you so you know, that's you consider scale in the terms of what the impact is. So it's really I'm going to I'm going to answer it in two levels. So one, do you really consider the scale if I fully comply with the bylaw because this is conforming. You don't. However, the scale impacts the actual, um, burden of the property. So when you say does the scale affect it? So for example, if I generated more traffic than the other, then scale would matter. Um, if this particular property were to um, burden other aspects, if it were to have like all parking out on front, we would increase and get another driveway. It could change and be substantially more detrimental if I was changing the use to something like still commercial, right? But some sort of a supermarket that could be deemed to be substantially more detrimental. And that would involve scale, right? Because you'd have a hell of a lot more parking, you'd have a lot of parking spaces, and that would kind of be indicative of quick movement because it's retail. But here the scale actually demonstrates why it is not substantially more detrimental because it's a fixed scale, it's only office. And by the way, when you do this, the beauty of of in the power of the zoning board is you don't just allow a change in use. You can actually say, we're allowing a change in use. And the use is only office that accessory storage only in those buildings as shown, and only three one bedroom apartments. You have the ability to actually restrict to those less intense uses to be able to ensure that the scale doesn't negatively impact the site. Does that answer the question?

01:00:00,767	S7:
Yeah, yeah, I think it does a little bit. It gives me your perspective on it for sure. Um, I think what I was getting at is whether or not things like, I do think this is a lovely project. I think it looks good. I think visually it's certainly an improvement over the existing conditions of the site. Right. But if we're to consider, um, neighbors concerns and the sort of the massing of the buildings, it is more, uh, massive structure on the property than currently exists. Um, it being upgraded is is nice, but that will come with a host of other concerns. Even if there's lower impact during the day, there could be greater impact at night from lighting again. Those aren't specifically under our consideration. Those would be things that the Planning Board would consider in, uh, in site plan review. But I do think that it does speak to, um, whether or not we would be considering the scale of impact of the structures themselves as part of the evaluation of whether or not this is more or less detrimental than the existing use?

01:01:02,667	S8:
Absolutely. And that's why, you know, there's that comparison of what exists now in the neighborhood. What are the requirements, for example, the scale you have, the two buildings, you know, right in front. Um, three buildings. I apologize, but you also have frontage of 371ft. We're only 175 is needed. So you actually have two full, you know, the equivalent of almost two full lots because you have so much frontage. But you do look at the massing in terms of that, because I don't want to say that you don't. It's just a different perspective. Right. You know, and it's my perspective relative to how I present. And it's your perspective. It's how you interpret what's substantially more detrimental. But you have to attach the massing to an effect. So if you say, okay, the massing is negative because and I don't know. And you may have you may have something to connect to that I just don't know what it would be because of the truly restricted uses.

01:02:00,467	S9:
And just Andy, to get back to your question, kind of about how it works with the different boards, uh, the question in front of the zoning board tonight is, uh, you can permit this if you determine only if you determine that the change shall not be substantially more detrimental than the existing nonconforming use to the neighborhood. So that's really the question in front of the zoning board. That's a sort of discretionary decision. So you can use your own judgment to listen to the butters and, and the applicant and take their feedback and make that decision. Um, you can say yes, or you can say no, or you can say something middle you can say it. You think it's a little too big. You want them to reduce the scale of it. Um, and then if you approve, it goes to the planning board. Planning board? It's non-discretionary. So they can't deny the project. They can't, um, they really can't even force them to scale down the project. They they're going to focus on details that you talked about, the things like landscaping and lighting and, um, you know, some of those finer grained details. But, uh, that's sort of how I see the, the process going.

01:03:08,701	S6:
Thanks, Mark.

01:03:15,701	S1:
Why don't we hear from some neighbors if there's some that would like to speak? I know you've been raising your hand. Come on. Someone come up and say your name and your. Your case.

01:03:28,167	S16:
Yes.

01:03:30,000	S17:
Good evening. My name is Jim McCarthy, 956 Bay road. Um, and, um, right directly across from the, uh, the property at 957. Um, though were relatively new to Hamilton. We lived around the corner on Fellows Road for 30 years, and I'm very familiar with the property having run by it or driven by it many times. Um, and, um, at first hearing that there was a plan to be developed by a very reputable company, we were excited. But I speak for myself, my wife and others in the condo association. We were taken aback by the change in use and the intensity. And I think what we were trying to get our head around, and we've been alluding to this language a little bit. Um, it's the baseline that matters. Right. And that, um, section five two. Um, uh, approval change to nonconforming use only if it finds the proposed use is not substantially more detrimental than the existing use. And that that finding requires a comparison between the actual historical use and what is now being proposed. And I'd argue that we really haven't seen any historical data on traffic other than statistical analysis of an auto repair typical auto repair place, which we know this place wasn't. Um, a typical auto repair place isn't by appointment only, and it just was not a typical auto repair place. So we're going on a statistical analysis. Um, that that I do not believe is valid. Uh, there's no occupancy records. There's no evidence of the volume of business they did. Anything that would help us get a baseline of what was the volume of activity in that location? We have nothing of that sort. And we also don't have anything that talks about the additional traffic and volume that will be going through that property. We do know that replacing one building with four commercial buildings, we know there are 26 parking spots. There are 26 there today, six office suites, three apartments, 11 storage units. Um, just common sense tells you that's a dramatically increased intensity of use of that, that that property. Um, I would also say that, you know, there's been a lot of talk about appearance and you can't deny that, that that's not the most attractive property in town. And again, one of the reasons we were excited about the potential for for some development there. Um, but I don't believe that. Not substantially more detrimental means that you can you can just dress it up and and have whatever it is you're proposing. Accept it that that we have to focus on what the what the bylaw requires. Which again, if unless I'm mistaken, is that it? It is a comparison between the actual historical use of what is what has been there versus what they are now proposing. And I don't I haven't seen that. I've heard about the, you know, appearance and hard to deny. But but I think we're underplaying. There's dramatically different volume of activity on that site versus what historically has been on that site, not on some typical or average repair shop, but on what has happened on that site, which, again, I think anyone who's lived in the area and driven by their nose, it was not a typical Jiffy Lube. So thank you for that consideration. I think again, we're not opposed to the development. It's just the scale. The dramatic change in use and the intensity.

01:07:10,467	S1:
The one thing I've been kind of wanting to say is that, yeah, we know what this place has been for the last 25 years, which isn't much but a junkyard. Right? Um, but we kind of also have to look at it as what it could be kind of by. Right, as a nonconforming use. They can. The guy could sell it to somebody else and they could build a big, you know, super lube, Jiffy Lube, whatever in there, because it is the same use. It would have to go through the EPA, but we'd probably allow it because it is the same use. We can't really say no. You got to stay within that little thing there. Right. Um.

01:07:49,400	S17:
So yeah.

01:07:50,868	S1:
I have to kind of look at it that it's like what it could be if it isn't this what what what the other case could be.

01:07:58,501	S17:
But I guess I get this question again in the interpretation of the bylaw. Looking at what the worst case scenario should be or could be. Is that is that something that should be looked at when you when you look at the bylaw and weigh the intent? I think it.

01:08:13,467	S1:
Is I mean it's we way that is you know, is this would you prefer this type of development versus a big industrial building that could fit in there?

01:08:25,000	S17:
Right.

01:08:25,200	S1:
Right, right. And not you know.

01:08:27,000	S17:
I know and I hear I know what you're saying.

01:08:29,667	S1:
Everybody wants to keep it kind of as it is and.

01:08:33,400	S17:
Know.

01:08:33,701	S1:
That that, you know, just quiet little building. But that's not.

01:08:37,000	S17:
No. Again, I think we expected some increase. And again, I recognize that there could be worst case scenarios, but there could be better scenarios. Who knows down the road. Right. That's why I think hypotheticals can be dangerous when we're evaluating a bylaw. And when the bylaw asks for an a consideration of past intensity versus current and not even having I mean, I don't know how the board, the zoning board, can make a decision tonight without any data on the historical volume of business in that, on that property or actual traffic data. Again, I'd argue that that that statistical traffic data is extremely flawed. And again, anyone driving by that, that, that building and that, that, that property over the last 20 years knows that that's the that's not a typical Jiffy Lube, right? All right. But thank you.

01:09:29,167	S1:
Okay. You're welcome. Thank you. Um, next, let's have one more keep. Yeah. Keep. Come with this and then you can come back up.

01:09:38,200	S16:
My turn to.

01:09:39,701	S1:
You're going to be next.

01:09:42,501	S16:
Thank you.

01:09:43,801	S1:
Ah. You're a butter.

01:09:44,667	S18:
You're a I'm gonna butter as well.

01:09:46,067	S16:
Go. Right.

01:09:46,667	S18:
Um, hi. My name is Roy Gibbs, and I live at 18 Gardner Street. I'm a clear butter of the property, and my backyard has set against, uh, what's effectively been described as the junkyard for years now. So first I just want to say thank you for the cleanup that's occurred. I don't think anybody's landscaped or had a leaf blower on that property in 20 plus years, so it's nice to see that it's already starting to get cleaned up relative to what it was. And then the second thing that I've been trying to grapple with is I've, you know, formed an opinion around where I stand on all this is the prospect of a monarchy or a midas. Being in our backyard is not something that I think sits well within the town. And when I look at this, this is a beautiful rendering of something that really accommodates the historical elements of Hamilton and supports the community in a way that is not something that I would underwrite as an investment and is clearly fairly charitable to this town. And I think that should, you know, that's obviously overlooked as we're talking about, you know, 5.2, 5.3, all of that, there's a charitable element to all of this that I think should be should be looked at, which is, you know, a huge investment in something that doesn't have a great ROI and is going to vastly improve our town. So thanks.

01:11:03,968	S1:
Thank you.

01:11:06,901	S1:
Sir. All right. Come on up. Thank you. We wouldn't leave it sitting back there in the corner.

01:11:12,901	S19:
Peter Townsend I live at 38 Gardner Street, and I'm on the backside of this property. And I do appreciate a lot of what one of the prior gentleman said. Those across the street are an examination of the exact use. So I don't really understand the grandfathering of this permit in the first place. But I'm not a lawyer or that. Are you the town attorney?

01:11:36,968	S15:
I'm not an attorney.

01:11:38,000	S9:
No, just the planning director.

01:11:39,467	S19:
But so we don't have the town attorney even weighing in on all these legal matters that we're talking about in the town council. Legal town council? Are they aware of any of this?

01:11:51,701	S9:
Yes, they do provide.

01:11:53,167	S19:
What kind of fears Failures apply in this situation? What do you even consider an appropriate use of a nonconforming lot in a residential zoning area with an application.

01:12:07,167	S1:
Bylaw and the bylaws? Write it out for us.

01:12:09,767	S19:
I understand I'm asking you a question. I'm sorry for being.

01:12:12,767	S15:
The town's attorney.

01:12:13,467	S9:
Does review the application. Make sure that they're playing for the correct zoning relief. So we have confirmed that okay.

01:12:20,501	S19:
And but there's nothing on that speaks to in our zoning on FAS Florida area ratios.

01:12:28,767	S9:
I don't believe this zoning district has an FA requirement.

01:12:32,901	S19:
So they're just aiming high and expecting to select coverage. And how is it that you're able to comment on that without anything like he's brought up or the pervious pavement that's going to be replacing grass, the roof area that's replacing grass, the fact that the property slopes to my property that the prior owner of the property built a berm so that he didn't have a swamp in the back, thereby bringing in the Conservation Commission as an issue when he was looking to sell it. I happened to speak to the gentleman. Of course.

01:13:10,000	S1:
One thing is they're going to have to go through all the storm management, stormwater. You're going.

01:13:15,400	S19:
To approve a four building.

01:13:16,767	S1:
And do all.

01:13:17,367	S16:
That for.

01:13:18,200	S19:
26.

01:13:18,968	S16:
Cars.

01:13:19,801	S19:
Here and now.

01:13:21,200	S1:
But the other thing is they can cover 25% of the lot by right. They're only covering 19% of the lot. Right, right.

01:13:31,300	S19:
When you say that's a grandfathered right. Do they not still.

01:13:34,267	S16:
Have to go through the entire.

01:13:35,601	S19:
Process before they get permission to build? And do we not apply the different standards.

01:13:41,901	S1:
If this was if this was a an open lot and trees and grasses and all that stuff and somebody bought it, they could build up to 25. They can build a ranch, one storey building that takes.

01:13:55,601	S19:
Up as of.

01:13:56,767	S1:
Nothing, nothing built on it. So it's clear a lot they can come in and build a house that covers 25% of that lot, and still do that by right.

01:14:08,067	S19:
Okay.

01:14:08,400	S1:
If they are doing 27%, then they would have to come to the zoning board for approval of that.

01:14:15,100	S19:
And that's.

01:14:15,667	S1:
Because because it's overextending the limits of our.

01:14:19,601	S16:
Building.

01:14:19,868	S19:
I wouldn't do my homework.

01:14:21,400	S1:
So yeah. So this is all by the lot size coverage wise. It's fine. Um, the sticky part is that it's a commercial use in a residential zone, and it's an RB, R1, B zone, so it's a larger lot. Um, that one house should be able to sit on. And now you can put an auxiliary unit if you want an Adu and a garage.

01:14:50,467	S19:
But the one B zoning is one acre.

01:14:55,000	S1:
40,000ft² per lot.

01:14:58,100	S19:
So this is.

01:14:58,667	S1:
Sort of and this is in 65. Yeah. So this is 60. So if it was A1A it would be 20,000ft². So you could do.

01:15:07,801	S19:
It would be a residential.

01:15:08,868	S1:
Do. You could do three lots in.

01:15:10,267	S19:
Here up to that. Not necessarily commercial. Right. Or I don't quite follow.

01:15:16,067	S9:
Yeah. Like I said, if this was the residential property, they wouldn't be allowed to do this without something called the variance, which is hard to get, but because.

01:15:23,167	S19:
Would that be multi-unit? Though this is multi-unit.

01:15:26,567	S9:
You could apply for a variance for anything. Um, but because this is a nonconforming use and it wasn't, it was.

01:15:34,167	S1:
Historic.

01:15:34,801	S9:
Yeah. It was it was in place before the zoning for the town was put in.

01:15:38,167	S19:
I understand that part. And they tore the gas tank.

01:15:40,801	S1:
So they're allowed.

01:15:41,367	S19:
To keep this guy.

01:15:42,167	S1:
So they're allowed to keep.

01:15:43,000	S19:
Mail order parts business. The amount of traffic we saw. I happen to know the guy was employed, so it was a part time hobby. If anything, the cars. I believe you probably took him away. Um, you know, that were left there? It was? Yeah. Ramshackle place. The guy was an interesting character, and he did it the way he lived. But to to suggest that it's going to become a Jiffy Lube. I mean, that's a nightmare that you're presenting. That obviously isn't really a concern of mine. That's not going to happen out there. That's not where you put Jiffy Lube. You put them on, you know, near Liberty Tree Mall or something. Um, where there is traffic that can lead to one person an hour in each of your eight bays or whatever. You said I just and the traffic. I question whether it's even been an operating business that gets grandfathered. I don't know, is there any record or examination of what this guy really did to say that he was a commercial business. It's like, I can say I'm a commercial business.

01:16:53,467	S18:
I like I know he I mean, I.

01:16:55,868	S19:
Know he did too, but what was it? How many people did you see come and go?

01:16:59,467	S18:
He. All I know is he repaired a lot of different machinery. He was a beautiful mind. He had 78 chainsaws. He did a lot of different stuff with machine.

01:17:06,667	S19:
Fair enough. He was a tinkerer and he.

01:17:08,467	S18:
But he. But he did have a commercial business. It was incorporated. And he like I paid all right, you know, to fix my mower.

01:17:14,767	S19:
He did. Oh, Grant.

01:17:15,868	S20:
Did it fine.

01:17:16,667	S19:
Well, anyways, I think the impact is, like previously stated, just way more than it's appropriate for the neighborhood. It's adding, uh, you know, a fair amount of paving.

01:17:32,467	S9:
And I just got a little closer.

01:17:34,267	S19:
To this anyway. Okay, I've taken to my time.

01:17:37,067	S1:
Thank you, thank you.

01:17:39,000	S19:
I do like to decide.

01:17:41,167	S1:
Okay.

01:17:41,667	S19:
I think it should be half.

01:17:46,801	S21:
Hello. I'm Chris. I'm at 965 Bay road. Uh, the property to the north. Um, it's also the property that has the big green barn that you were referring to. Um, I didn't prepare much for tonight. I got a eight week at home, so I'm running on about three hours of sleep. Um, but I'm going strictly off of, uh, what I've heard about Kevin and Kevin's. The reputation of Kevin and Kevin's company. Um. And I am in support of this. I mean, you can see the extreme detail that's been put into these drawings all down to pushing everything in the back. Um, to keep it, you know, visually appearing. Um, you know, you don't see that from from a lot of developers. Uh, that says something about what Roy said. The, uh, the charitable aspect and the community Aspect. Um, and then one other thing that I'll say is the property. Now, uh, people know people driving on this road on VA road. They know it's vacant and it's a it's kind of a desolate stretch down Bay road. And people fly, I mean, crazy. I, we don't have a formal driveway or a parking lot. Um, so we kind of pull over on the side of the dirt road. Uh, that's where we keep our cars, and it's, um, you know, we go out there and it's. You can feel the wind as cars cruise by. So I actually think that having a development that has, you know, a nice appearance, people, I know the house across the road from us 968 Bay road was mentioned a couple of times how, you know, done a beautiful job with it. It's a couple different um, structures with on property. People drive by. I see people, you know, coming from Ipswich, they drive by. They slow down to look at it just because it's a beautiful spot. I think if we have something like that on, you know, on this side of the road as well, that can only help, you know. I would love for people to slow down on that road. I've, you know, a two year old and like I said, an eight week at home, eight week old at home. Um, and it's just, you know, anything we can do to try to get some traffic is one thing, but the way people drive on that road is another thing. So, um, interested to see, you know, see, see this through to the next steps. And, um, like I said, I'm going off the reputation. Uh, my wife went to, grew up with, with Kevin's children in Hamilton, and I know the family and the company has a great reputation. So I just wanted to give give my approval. Thank you.

01:20:32,100	S1:
Okay. Thank you.

01:20:38,000	S22:
Last one?

01:20:40,100	S1:
Sure.

01:20:42,000	S22:
Warren Gray, 935 Bay road. Um, I'm on the right beside Roy here. Um, most most people know me as Bob. My middle name is Robert. Um, I've lived at 935 Bay road for 56 years. And in all those 56 years, this property has been just a wreck. Junk cars, junk boys, junk junk. Everything all scattered out through the area. So when the new owner came and started cleaning these up, and then I got a notice that they were going to do some a project there. I was quite excited until I went down to the building department and looked at the plan and I said, wow, this, this looks like it's way too big for the size of the property there. I mean, they made a nice presentation here, but still looks like it's almost too big for that. That property and for the general neighborhood. So that that was really my only concern is, is the size of the project. Second concern was about the contamination there. Um, I know this. I guess some reports been done, uh, but, you know, years and years of junk cars and and by the way, I know for a fact that when it was a very active repair, uh, garage and they used to take the used oil and store it in 55 gallon drums out in the back on pallets. And because they used it for the furnace, they had a oil burning furnace there, and that's what they used it for. But some of those, uh, 55 gallon drums were known to leak. And so that's why I'm really concerned about contamination. And I think in your packet, if I read it correctly from the health, it was at the health department, uh, mentioning about how the septic system is not big enough for, to accommodate this project and that at the same time, when they do that, they were going to be doing some checking on contamination. I think I think he said in, in his letter in your packet. Am I right?

01:23:10,801	S1:
Has there been a test of the properties? I thought that was done like about for contamination.

01:23:16,400	S8:
We have reports that show that it was cleaned up. It has not been any activity.

01:23:20,767	S20:
That demonstrates the drugs that Mr. Grey is talking about is that that's filth. Okay. That was the one that was cleaned up. Okay.

01:23:28,367	S1:
So that's I thought that was just the so you know, I think they've been in there already to try to get it cleaned up. Um, and as far as I know, the septic system probably hasn't been designed yet. Yeah. Okay. And that's a big question for me is where where's that going to go? With all the pavement. And you can put it on the pavement too. But I'm sure they'll. Yeah they'll have to design that to accommodate all the.

01:23:54,000	S22:
Did I hear you say that? Um, the planning board cannot change the scale of of the, uh, of this project.

01:24:06,300	S9:
I would say that question isn't really the zoning board's purview, is the, you know, the the scale of the project, the use. Um, the planning board looks at the, the site plan itself. So they can't deny a project. They can place conditions on it. They can ask for changes, things like that.

01:24:23,167	S22:
I'm just asking that question is I think the project is too big. I'm wondering who could maybe say, okay, let's. This project is a nice project that cleans up the property and everything. But could we make it a little bit slower or smaller? Maybe, uh, who can do that?

01:24:42,167	S9:
That would be the zoning board.

01:24:43,367	S22:
That would be here.

01:24:44,167	S9:
If they wanted to. They could request.

01:24:46,300	S22:
They wanted to.

01:24:47,167	S2:
Okay.

01:24:48,000	S22:
All right, all right, I approve. I'm requesting it. Um, as long as this is just a side thing. But as far as the traffic goes, um, I have to disagree with some of the people that spoke here about that, you know, don't you remember the old days they called the S curves? There's one big S curve by your property and a big S curve up on the other, and people come around there and look, I've lived there 56 years. It could be a problem with people trying to get into that because of these s curves and stuff that, uh, caused traffic in, in, in speeders.

01:25:29,167	S1:
So related to the speed. Yeah. That's why the speed limit is only 25 or 30 in that zone.

01:25:35,067	S22:
But anyway, that's where I stand. And, uh, take into consideration you have a letter from me.

01:25:41,067	S1:
How do you feel about the project since you've seen the.

01:25:45,901	S22:
I'm actually quite impressed. I feel actually better about it with your presentation than I did before I came here.

01:25:55,501	S1:
Okay.

01:25:56,167	S22:
So, yeah, it's really worthy. Yeah, it's certainly, uh. But, uh. But I.

01:26:04,167	S1:
Like to.

01:26:04,367	S22:
Do it. I don't like being blackmailed. Saying maybe there'd be a Jiffy Lube there.

01:26:09,667	S1:
No, no, no. It's just. But it's something you have to kind of.

01:26:13,868	S22:
Well, but as Peter said, it could also be something better. Just a big single family house, right?

01:26:24,567	S1:
Yep. Could be that, too. Yeah. Okay.

01:26:30,267	S1:
Can you bring up the aerial view? Yep.

01:26:36,367	S20:
That's the last page.

01:26:39,801	S1:
Is there anybody else in zoom that wants to speak up to the project?

01:26:49,367	S1:
Nope. And we're all through everybody here. Okay.

01:26:55,767	S9:
If, uh, if you do want to speak on zoom, you can just raise your hand or unmute yourself.

01:27:04,567	S1:
We have our board sewing, so.

01:27:16,868	S1:
I don't see anybody.

01:27:20,801	S1:
Here. Anybody. So. Yeah. If we can look that over. Yeah.

01:27:36,567	S1:
Because I'm just looking at a scale size space of the neighborhood and what's being proposed.

01:27:56,267	S19:
A picture that with 14 cars in there.

01:27:58,868	S1:
What house is a what's above to the north?

01:28:03,501	S8:
To the north.

01:28:04,167	S1:
That's that's is that a private home? Who's up? That's you. Yeah. Okay. I don't know the street numbers as well as you guys do. Obviously.

01:28:12,100	S8:
It's a lovely home. It's right in a triangle. It's, um. It's an antique home. It's got to be. It has to be from the 1700s.

01:28:19,467	S20:
1800? Yeah.

01:28:20,100	S21:
They don't even know the date.

01:28:21,267	S1:
Yeah.

01:28:21,868	S8:
So that's in the garage? Yeah. The garage that exists along the frontage is it's got to be almost the same vintage. It's old.

01:28:30,767	S21:
Yeah, I think it was a couple of years after that.

01:28:33,300	S8:
So. So if I may, I can outline it. So 935 basically almost all of the properties that surround this one happen to be non-conforming there, you know, 22 to 30,000ft². They're not 40,000. It's just that's the nature of this area. They're older. It's an older community, um, you know, directly across the street, like I said, that those homes, you can see it where you have that big building to the north, directly across the street from your house, and then then you have the two structures that come down the side, that's all one property. Um, and then you have a whole bunch of little accessory buildings that properties maybe 1.7 acres. I think that is maybe might be bigger. I think it's one seven because you can compare it to across the street and then the building right below it. Um, the larger building that's vertical, that's on about 20,000ft² that I don't. Is that your property? I think that's your your condo. The next one.

01:29:33,501	S17:
I'm not.

01:29:34,000	S14:
Following.

01:29:34,467	S8:
That. So I can't yeah, I can't really you know what I'm going to do. I'm just going to point so that people can see it. And then you can maybe point it out to the, um. This one.

01:29:43,367	S1:
That one. That's a condo building.

01:29:45,601	S23:
That's a three unit condo. And this is a three year contract.

01:29:49,167	S1:
Oh, they both are. Yes. Okay. I didn't know that.

01:29:52,000	S8:
Um, one of them has, like, 30,000ft². The other one has about 20, but they're they're all pretty old. I mean, it's a legal, existing nonconforming lot. And then below again that there's a, there's a two family that was subject to the conversion. You under your bylaw, you allow a single family to be converted if it's a certain vintage. So you have that on that property. And I think maybe Mr. Gray, I think is yours too. The conversion into a two family. Yeah. But you did that under the Bible. Completely legally done under the bile that you can convert. But it's a it's a it's a nonconforming lot. Yeah. Then the next property that yours is actually a conforming lot. That was the 18. Gardner.

01:30:32,267	S1:
So what's to the northeast.

01:30:34,701	S8:
Okay I don't even know. That's this.

01:30:37,501	S1:
So the diagonal line going up there, it's almost like the road that starts at the bottom right corner, going straight across the back yard of the design. So is at a 45.

01:30:49,567	S23:
So north so east.

01:30:52,067	S1:
Yeah. So that that line yeah.

01:30:54,767	S23:
Big beautiful estate. Watch my watch detailed that. That's the one that has like a pool a tennis court um a.

01:31:02,067	S8:
Secondary garage, a huge primary home and then multiple little buildings.

01:31:07,100	S19:
Every half of it's in conservation restriction. Yes it is. And you about that.

01:31:11,667	S23:
Yes.

01:31:12,167	S19:
So I'm not.

01:31:13,367	S8:
I don't know what you're I'm.

01:31:14,501	S23:
Just telling okay.

01:31:15,267	S8:
You asked a question.

01:31:16,467	S19:
So is that a more deer friendly property than what's there now I'm not so sure.

01:31:21,367	S8:
I don't know what that means. But. But you know, that's. It's a beauty. That's like. I think it's 11 acres behind it. Okay. Um, and some of it may be in a car, right? I didn't look at that component. I didn't look at it. So it might.

01:31:33,667	S23:
Be.

01:31:34,200	S19:
Just like the property.

01:31:35,267	S1:
I'm just curious about.

01:31:36,367	S8:
Yeah.

01:31:37,367	S1:
Okay.

01:31:40,000	S19:
And it's if you look at your roof area just optically is larger than your every building in this view.

01:31:50,200	S8:
It actually some of them are there like all different shapes. But you know, the total component, the total component. And then the total burden on the property is relative to percentage. Some of them are quite close because we're 19%. And there are some homes that are, you know, have a oh yeah. And it's fine. I mean, it looks it looks nice. People are very considerate. The way they drive. The driveways are well-kept. All we're trying to do is the same. I mean, the reason why we say it's harmonious is, you know, I had Mr. Stein overlay it because I thought it was important for the community to actually see what it looked like. It's good to be able to visualize, but also what you're visualizing is you're looking at the, you know, at the pavement. And is it pavement? Yes. But does it get handled with stormwater? Yes. Um, you know, the actual buildings are what you look at for occupation. And I'd venture to say that many of those particular buildings are close to the 15 to 19% coverage.

01:32:49,667	S8:
But again, um, you know, we do meet the zoning requirements. And and I apologize if you thought that we were threatening with regard to Jiffy Lube. We surely are not. If anybody who knows Mr. Popolo knows he absolutely would not threaten, doesn't use that. Has absolutely no desire to ever touch this as motor vehicle repair. I brought it up. I as the attorney. It was never brought up by anybody else. I brought it up because Cause, like, everybody thinks it has to be, you know, the bylaw says or the or the, um, the statute says you have to look at the actual use of the property. Absolutely not. The statute says if somebody underutilized the property and the use that's under utilization, you benefited for a couple of years. But the property can be used to the full extent of whatever that use is. So if it was underutilized, it was underutilized. But it doesn't mean that's the that's that's not the metric you use. You actually said it. I don't need to repeat it. Um, so anyway, I digress. Any other questions?

01:33:56,601	S19:
Can I ask a.

01:33:57,667	S17:
Question, please?

01:33:59,067	S1:
Is that. Yeah. Can you come up so we can hear you? So I'm just going to record.

01:34:03,000	S17:
I'm curious, uh, Jim McCarthy again. You know more about this than I do. Right? But so you can compare a hypothetical to what you're proposing versus the actuals versus what you're proposing. You're saying comparing it to a Jiffy Lube. This looks really good. I'm confused.

01:34:21,501	S1:
I said that, but.

01:34:22,200	S17:
But but you can't compare it to a hypothetical, can you? Can't you? You have to. I thought I thought the bylaws stated that it requires a comparison between the actual historical use and what is now being proposed.

01:34:35,601	S1:
Use?

01:34:36,267	S17:
Yeah. Yes. So was it not company or. No, no, no I know, but but again so but again we know what Jiffy Lube implies. But but this is not. This was again a part time tinkerer who didn't even have regular hours. You had to go to the website and make an appointment. So we again, it's just I think we're comparing a hypothetical to what you know is not real right now. And that's all I'm asking, is that the board consider that.

01:35:05,267	S19:
Garage in Essex and see how many people they get through their two garage.

01:35:10,167	S23:
Bays. So.

01:35:11,267	S9:
Sir, when you make comments, I just warn you, the majority of the people on that are making this decision can't hear you because they're online. So you do have to go to the mic. Uh.

01:35:20,367	S19:
I'm sorry, I should.

01:35:22,400	S23:
So again.

01:35:23,067	S8:
I the area of nonconforming uses is absolutely not intended for laypeople. And that's no disrespect intended. It is an extremely, um, well, um, litigated point. And with regard to use it is the actual use, not historic. You actually look at the use what is it? And it is not historic practical. It is use what is the use? And when you look at the the case law and when you look at the actual verbiage in the bylaw, it says what is the existing use? You have to compare the proposed change to the existing use. And when you look at the existing use, you have to look at what it is. That's why I provided all those Any excess debtors because you have to look at the categories. The fact that a property is underutilized does not undermine, nor does it change the grandfathering of the use. So if you allowed it as a non-core, if you allowed it to be a motor vehicle repair facility and the man kept it up, even if he did it in a minor sense, it's irrelevant. It's still a protected use under the statute.

01:36:36,767	S19:
I would.

01:36:37,200	S17:
Like, could.

01:36:37,567	S1:
I just respectfully.

01:36:38,400	S17:
Ask the board to confirm that?

01:36:39,801	S1:
I don't doubt I mean.

01:36:41,601	S23:
Well.

01:36:42,467	S1:
But yes. Yes, I mean that's it's. Yeah. Again it's about the use.

01:36:46,667	S17:
I would just, just ask because again, that's a key part of this interpretation. Is it actual historical use or is it again hypothetical. What could have been in that case use. Right.

01:36:58,667	S1:
But you have to separate the definition of use versus the definition, the the description of how it's used.

01:37:08,067	S17:
Right. But if he.

01:37:08,868	S1:
Wanted to build his business. He might come to us and say, I need to knock this building down because it's too old and I can't do what I want to do. I want to make a bigger thing in there, and I start going to town and be, you know, whatever he wants to be in some kind of mechanical way. He can build whatever he wants. And I mean, within the bylaws.

01:37:30,367	S17:
Right.

01:37:31,567	S1:
As a brand new building and be a bigger operation if he wanted to. Okay. Just because he's a little guy doesn't mean he has to stay there. I know next person who comes in doesn't have to be the little guy who stays there. But that man didn't do a big thing. So that's. So use is a.

01:37:48,501	S17:
But that's where I wonder.

01:37:49,567	S1:
If the analogy for the type of land use.

01:37:51,968	S17:
I'm sorry for. Have you, have you had a similar case to this that you've looked at that that bylaw in that fashion. And again, I'm just worried about is this a consistent VBA zoning?

01:38:06,300	S1:
It's kind of like what the bank was down um, down the street. That used to be a little flower shop, right? I think before that it was a gas station, I think like an old gas station. Right. Um.

01:38:18,567	S9:
So it's a state statute, so it's fairly well litigated. What, what, um, what the criteria are and I think the reason why the applicant is bringing it up is because conceivably they could come in with a use that's similar to what was historically there. So like a small service station or a garage, something like that.

01:38:38,000	S24:
Right. Um.

01:38:39,367	S9:
And the building commissioner, I have to go to Ziva.

01:38:43,367	S24:
It would just be.

01:38:44,667	S9:
Extension of that nonconforming.

01:38:46,100	S24:
Use, its.

01:38:47,367	S9:
Expansion. Then that's when it.

01:38:48,667	S24:
Goes to the CPA. Right.

01:38:50,000	S9:
That's why we're here tonight.

01:38:51,200	S17:
Right. And a different use. Right. The intensity of use of the land versus what's there right now. Yes. Right. Okay. I just this this I was under the impression it was based on historical use of the site, not necessarily what could be there. because that sounds like a very difficult target to hit. You know, it's a moving target, right? It could be a Jiffy Lube. It could be a super duper Jiffy Lube. Who knows? Right. And that just puzzles me that that would be the the standard for the by law, you know, evaluation of intensity. Mhm. But thank you.

01:39:30,400	S19:
I would just like to add a question about the traffic study. And you know the notion of how many cars are traveling on route one, a bay road past that spot versus say route 3133 and Essex and Gabriel garage or the station way of downtown. Um, there are, you know, that notion that you can and also so, you know, to suggest if the existing permitted use were to continue IL as a as a two bay repair shop. There are no gas tanks that would, I think require another change of use, wouldn't it, to say that there was one there in 1950 to 1960? I mean, that's been a long time to, you know, for a machine repair shop, that's a light industrial use. Uh, how large is that facility now to say a Jiffy Lube is going to come along and triple it its size. Would that not also kick in a zoning board review with an environmental impact, a traffic study? No.

01:40:44,300	S9:
Where would be. The building commissioner would make a decision if he thought it was, um, consistent with the historical use. Then he.

01:40:51,367	S19:
All right. But would the building commissioner consider something consistent with this historical use when it's doubled or tripled in size? That to me is inconsistent. It would take again, presumably a whole host of other things. Impact studies, etc.. Um, again, I just don't understand. We all appreciate the notion of it being improved. It's a no brainer that place was going to get improved when that person sold. He had to sign up for 40 be buyers. Neither here nor there. We're talking about this project. I feel it's too much for the area. Just optically looking at this map, you can see it dominates everything else in this picture. Not just the lack of vegetation, but the footprint of the buildings. The other places are old historic buildings. They were there. We passed zoning laws in the town to preserve the open spaces and not re density things, or allow the densification to continue except in the areas where we want them now along Bay road. I consider that myself. That's that's fine. But you've got four houses in a spot that maybe two would be more appropriate. That's my personal feeling, and I object. Thank you.

01:42:19,767	S24:
Okay.

01:42:22,267	S1:
Okay. Um.

01:42:26,367	S1:
You guys have anything further to discuss about this? I mean, how do you feel?

01:42:34,767	S1:
I'm sort of. I personally, I feel like I need a little time to absorb all this. And really, now that I've heard the presentation, um, try to get my mind around the traffic issues. Um, and the.

01:42:51,367	S1:
You know, the scale of it. Um.

01:42:58,300	S1:
Personally, I wouldn't mind continuing it to next month, so I can kind of, um, look into that a little bit more thoroughly. Now that we've heard everything.

01:43:13,200	S1:
What do you get?

01:43:13,767	S7:
I don't disagree with that, Bruce.

01:43:19,167	S1:
Andy.

01:43:20,567	S6:
That's good.

01:43:22,000	S1:
Yeah.

01:43:22,267	S6:
Okay with that? Yeah.

01:43:23,767	S8:
We are more than willing to accept a continuance, and I just I just want to add maybe what actually helps a little bit is the reason why non-conforming uses are protected and you're allowed to grow is because the entire point of the statute is to preserve those uses that were historically begun and to allow them to actually succeed. So the reason you're allowed to put up a bigger building and the reason you're allowed to actually, um, increase your customer base is because the statute is intended to foster those nonconforming uses to actually succeed and not to die. And that's kind of why you protect an existing use. For example, I couldn't put a manufacturing shop there. You know, it's still an industrial use, but I'm changing the use. I couldn't do that. But they just foster success. Just just so people understand where the law comes from at that point. But I just want to get back to the point of, yes, we would accept a continuance, and I would actually ask that we continue then until next month.

01:44:26,200	S1:
Okay. If you guys are on board with that, I'm good with that for sure. Um.

01:44:36,100	S1:
I hear a motion to continue this to next month.

01:44:41,200	S6:
I set a motion to continue the application for variance of 957 Bay road.

01:44:48,901	S7:
By.

01:44:49,467	S1:
Planning for a finding. Yeah.

01:44:52,100	S6:
For finding. Sorry.

01:44:53,267	S1:
Actually, I'll wait one, one minute. I'm sorry. Um.

01:44:58,767	S1:
Wouldn't this fall under a special permit because of the voluntary demolition?

01:45:02,267	S8:
It does not.

01:45:04,601	S9:
No, that's not what the building inspector determined. And we did take it to town council, and they agreed with his.

01:45:12,901	S1:
Okay. All right. Never mind. Okay. Um. Motion to continue.

01:45:23,000	S6:
Annie. Philip, I.

01:45:25,868	S7:
Hi.

01:45:26,267	S1:
Hi. Bruce. Gingerich.

01:45:29,667	S1:
Uh, next. It's every Wednesday, first Wednesday of the month. So that would be. We'll continue to.

01:45:39,067	S6:
January 7th.

01:45:40,067	S11:
27.

01:45:40,801	S1:
Uh, yes. January 7th.

01:45:44,167	S23:
Okay.

01:45:44,467	S1:
Perfect.

01:45:44,801	S8:
7:00, 7:00. Same place.

01:45:46,567	S23:
Thank you very.

01:45:47,100	S1:
Much. Same time.

01:45:48,701	S8:
Same bed. Channel.

01:45:49,767	S23:
Thank you. Thank you.

01:45:51,701	S1:
All right. Thank you so much.

01:45:53,167	S23:
Thank you.

01:45:53,868	S1:
You too.

01:45:54,868	S23:
Have a good holiday. We won't see you.

01:45:56,767	S1:
All right. You too.

01:45:59,467	S23:
Uh.

01:46:00,601	S18:
You. Me?

01:46:02,868	S1:
Okay. Uh, the other things we have are the meeting minutes.

01:46:10,367	S1:
Excuse me. We're not. We're not done yet. We want to get out of here, too. So if we can step outside and talk.

01:46:19,467	S1:
Hey, guys. Guys, can we just move out into the foyer or something and chat?

01:46:24,467	S18:
Oh, yeah.

01:46:25,367	S1:
Thank you. We just got to wrap up our meeting here and.

01:46:30,067	S1:
Get home to.

01:46:32,267	S18:
Yeah.

01:46:33,367	S23:
Yeah.

01:46:34,067	S18:
I was up this way. Okay, great. Sorry.

01:46:39,601	S1:
Okay, so we have, um, meeting minutes for November 5th, 2025. There you go. Um, any issues you guys see with that?

01:46:50,167	S23:
And.

01:46:51,367	S1:
No.

01:46:52,968	S7:
Um, I was I was just looking them over again and I noticed that, um, uh, for the, the hearing where I took over as chair, it says that, uh, David took over as chair, which I don't particularly care about, but I'm not sure David wants my words in his mouth.

01:47:09,267	S1:
No, we'll get that changed. Yeah, because it's definitely you doing that. I'll have to check. Maybe I put the wrong name in on that one. Um.

01:47:20,567	S1:
Yeah. Okay. So, um, entertain a vote to approve meeting minutes of November 5th, 2025.

01:47:29,767	S7:
I motion to approve the meeting minutes of November 5th, 2025 with the change, um, discussed earlier of, uh, David's name being corrected to my name for the 45 Central Place project.

01:47:44,267	S1:
Yeah.

01:47:45,467	S6:
I second that.

01:47:47,000	S1:
Okay. Roll call a vote.

01:47:49,300	S7:
Steven DeRosa I.

01:47:51,100	S6:
Andy Philip I.

01:47:52,267	S1:
Bruce Gingerich guy and that will wrap it for tonight. We'll see you next month.

01:48:00,267	S9:
I think we have the.

01:48:01,167	S6:
Uh, we'll see you next week.

01:48:02,667	S1:
What's up?

01:48:03,767	S6:
See you next.

01:48:04,167	S1:
Week. Next week too.

01:48:06,200	S6:
Can't have a time yet. Do we? I don't think we have time yet.

01:48:09,167	S1:
Hang on a second.

01:48:09,868	S9:
The schedule for next year.

01:48:11,200	S1:
Oh, yeah. Right. Did you guys see the the schedule for next year?

01:48:17,000	S7:
Uh, did did see the schedule, but we just continued that last item to a meeting that doesn't exist on the schedule.

01:48:25,100	S9:
I think it's missing that.

01:48:26,667	S1:
Well, well, now we'll fix that. Okay. Okay. That's because nothing was submitted in time for that meeting. So, um.

01:48:35,167	S6:
Oh, good.

01:48:35,767	S1:
We don't have any conflict with vacations or anything like that.

01:48:42,567	S7:
Vacations?

01:48:43,868	S1:
Yeah. When you go away from home for a long time.

01:48:46,567	S24:
Mhm.

01:48:46,868	S7:
For those.

01:48:47,667	S1:
More than three days.

01:48:49,868	S6:
I It should be good.

01:48:51,100	S1:
Okay.

01:48:53,567	S6:
All right. But I thought there was some really good potential candidates in this session to become alternates for the CPA.

01:49:02,901	S1:
All right, well, get their names and we'll send them a letter.

01:49:07,100	S6:
Yeah. Um, so we're really good. Okay. So we don't have a time next week for lunch, though, do we?

01:49:14,601	S1:
Uh, whenever. 12 1230.

01:49:17,968	S6:
Okay.

01:49:20,100	S1:
Great. The post.

01:49:22,100	S6:
Sounds great.

01:49:23,367	S1:
Okay. We'll see you then.

01:49:25,901	S6:
Wait. Sorry. I think this said. Oh. Never mind. Sorry. Okay. Thanks, guys. Bye.

01:49:32,501	S7:
We need to adjourn.

01:49:34,467	S1:
Oh.

01:49:35,200	S6:
Motion to adjourn.

01:49:36,501	S1:
Yeah. Motion.

01:49:37,601	S7:
I second that motion.

01:49:38,801	S1:
All right. All in favor?

01:49:40,968	S7:
Steven DeRosa, I.

01:49:42,467	S6:
Andy, Philippe.

01:49:43,367	S1:
Bruce King or guy? Good evening.

01:49:47,000	S7:
See you. Thank you. Bye, everybody.