00:00:00,167 S1: I think we did. There's a lot of cool things with us and that's also going to change. How many times do. 00:00:10,167 S1: I have to say something like this? 00:00:15,000 S1: So yeah. 00:00:19,367 S2: I got my laptop. 00:00:24,300 S3: I got. 00:00:25,501 S2: It. It's just turned out. 00:00:36,667 S4: I think that's it right now. 00:00:38,901 S5: Are we good? 00:00:40,100 S4: Yep. 00:00:40,868 S2: Perfect. 00:00:41,601 S6: Okay. 00:00:45,200 S5: So it is 7 p.m., and I'm calling the Hamilton Planning Board meeting to order the December 2nd, 2025 meeting to order. Uh, the meeting is being recorded and because we have members appearing via zoom, I will take a roll call. So when I call your name up, please indicate that you're present. Jonathan. 00:01:09,267 S7: Poor Jonathan, poor present. 00:01:11,467 S5: Emil Dahlquist. 00:01:12,567 S4: Emil. Dahlquist. Present. 00:01:14,100 S5: Darcy. Dale. 00:01:15,667 S8: Darcy. Dale. Present. 00:01:17,167 S6: Beth Herr present. 00:01:19,067 S5: Matt Hamill. 00:01:20,767 S4: Present. 00:01:22,167 S5: Jeff. Austin. 00:01:23,100 S9: Jeff. Austin. Present. 00:01:24,167 S5: And Marty Crouch present. So the first item on our agenda is the review of the November 4th, 2020 five minutes. Do I have a motion to approve those minutes? 00:01:37,767 S7: I just have one tiny comment. 00:01:39,868 S5: Oh, I was going to ask for comments, but I'll take them now. It doesn't matter. Okay, what's your comment? 00:01:45,467 S7: Um. Last paragraph, first page. Um. Chair Crouch noted the wastewater treatment plants are regulated by mass DEP, and it goes on to say monitoring requirements related to um to such systems, then single might want to say single family septic systems. I know that was clear. 00:02:07,367 S5: Single family. 00:02:08,467 S7: Yeah. Septic system. Just to separate package systems from single family systems. 00:02:15,501 S5: Any other I know Darcy? 00:02:17,467 S6: Yes. 00:02:18,567 S8: Yes I do. Um, yeah. First paragraph starting with chair, Crouch explained. Um, if you go to line six, it goes on and could be enforce the letter B is I mean, the word B is missing. So that should be inserted. And then on lines four and five, uh, where it says entirely counter with what. And the word was needs to be inserted there. Line seven is stylistic. Um, it says there is no one body. If they could change it to there is no single body. And, um, let's see the last paragraph. Second to the last line. Remove the word. However. Then on page two, third paragraph, um, where it says Merwin Walters, remove the comma and add quote. And the seminary confirmed that the surveys. Um, that's just a stylistic change too. But other than that, that's all I have. 00:03:17,000 S5: I had a number of stylistic changes that I won't even, um, bother to to, um, recite. I mean, they're very minor. So, uh, Darcy, I think you sent your edits to Mark. I will hand him my edits, one of which is so minor it's almost laughable. In the third line at the top, Hamilton Wenham Public Library. That's hyphenated. Just saying. Uh, and then, you know, there was something about an FAQ. It's really FAQs with the small list. But I will give Mark my comments. So now I will entertain a motion to approve the minutes from November 18th. 00:03:58,167 S7: So moved. 00:03:59,067 S5: Do I have a second? 00:04:01,367 S4: Second. 00:04:02,100 S5: So please indicate that you approve the minutes as amended. Jonathan. 00:04:07,000 S7: Poor Jonathan, poor I. 00:04:08,767 S5: Am Will Dahlquist. Die. Darcy. Dale. 00:04:12,100 S8: Darcy. Dale I. 00:04:13,501 S6: Beth Herr, I. 00:04:15,000 S5: Am Arnie Crouch. I I'm going to deliver these. 00:04:18,300 S6: To. 00:04:18,667 S9: My name. Just realize my, my my last name is spelled wrong in there as well. Oops. 00:04:23,367 S4: Oh, no. 00:04:24,267 S10: Oh, no. 00:04:25,267 S4: Oh, no. 00:04:28,701 S10: Oh, yeah. Oh. 00:04:31,267 S4: Good. 00:04:34,567 S6: He's no longer poor. Poor. Oh, right. 00:04:37,767 S10: So we're glad that he's no longer poor, right? 00:04:40,868 S6: We're glad his. 00:04:41,701 S5: Economic status has. 00:04:42,901 S6: Improved. 00:04:45,267 S7: Doesn't beat what the Gloucester Daily Times has done to my name over the years. Johanna Haan First. Is Jonathan. 00:04:55,467 S6: Ready? 00:04:57,267 S5: Okay, so the next item is a request for approval of a minor modification to a special permit. And I believe that this involves the replacement of the utility pole, which will now be, um, slightly higher than what was originally contemplated. So now it will be 37ft instead of something like. 00:05:22,100 S4: 30.5. 00:05:23,000 S5: 30.5. 00:05:23,868 S6: Thank you. 00:05:24,667 S5: So, uh. 00:05:28,567 S5: Is, um, anyone here representing, uh, new Cingular Wireless? 00:05:34,567 S4: Yep. 00:05:35,567 S11: Hi. I'm. Perry said good evening. You thought you got rid of me, but I'm back. 00:05:39,367 S6: Well, at least you didn't drive tonight. 00:05:42,467 S11: No, I appreciate the expression on zoom. It's a little windy out there. 00:05:46,467 S5: If you had driven here, I would have been very upset. 00:05:51,067 S11: Well, you have to do what you have to do. So, you know, after going through, you know, all of the machinations to get this site approved, uh, the utility company then told us after all this that we need to replace the pole. We had initially proposed just to attach to the pole. Uh, we had a structural that was sufficient, but it might be the age of the pole. You know, we don't control the pole. So they're requiring that we replace it. We feel it's a minor modification. It'll be. It's the same pole. It's pole seven and a half. Uh, it'll be shifted slightly. These, you know, pole will be replaced. All of the wires will be installed. AT&T will install its equipment, and the existing pole will then be removed. It's all of the. It's the same antenna. Same equipment. Um, we think it's a minor modification. And, uh, that's basically all we're doing. It was a site that, you know, was built by consensus between AT&T, the planning Board, and the neighbors. Um, so we're seeking approval of this minor modification, which is solely that we have to replace the pole instead of use the existing pole. 00:07:08,868 S5: Well, I think anything that will improve cell coverage in Hampton has my vote. 00:07:13,467 S11: So thank. 00:07:14,467 S5: You. Is there any discussion about this for many board members? 00:07:19,100 S10: No. 00:07:20,567 S5: Then I will entertain a motion to approve the request for a minor modification to the special permit. 00:07:28,367 S10: I move that we approve this minor modification. 00:07:33,267 S5: Do I have a second? 00:07:34,467 S8: Second? 00:07:35,767 S5: Okay. So when I call your name, please indicate your assent. Jonathan. Poor. 00:07:41,501 S7: Jonathan poor. 00:07:42,267 S5: I am Dahlquist. Dahlquist II. Darcy. Dale. 00:07:46,701 S8: Darcy. Dale I. 00:07:48,067 S10: Beth her I. 00:07:49,367 S5: Imani. Crouch. I. Congratulations, Mr.. Parry. 00:07:54,300 S11: Thank you. Thank you all very much. You know, I do apologize for this, but your accommodation was great. I'm glad I didn't drive out for a brief session like this. And thank you all. Happy holidays to everybody. 00:08:04,000 S4: Happy holidays to you. Take care. 00:08:06,300 S11: Thank you. Thank you Mark. 00:08:07,567 S5: Good night. 00:08:08,767 S11: Good night. 00:08:11,300 S12: What a nice man. 00:08:13,501 S5: Okay, so the next item is a request for partial release of Covenant of Form K on zero Meyer Road. Uh, and Mark, I have read your staff memorandum. 00:08:28,868 S5: Uh, however, I'm puzzled by this, um, because I was this property, the subject of some intense litigation back in the day. Or am I thinking of someplace else in town. 00:08:45,868 S4: If. 00:08:46,067 S11: I make. 00:08:46,501 S13: Um. Good evening. Oh, yes. My, my name is Connor Walsh. I'm here from Glowacki offices at eight Washington Street in Beverly. Um, on behalf of, uh, Charlotte McCarthy as trustee of her trust and the owner of this property. Um, this particular property, the Zero Mile road. I'm not aware of any litigation, um, surrounding it. 00:09:05,667 S5: Okay, so that that I know in that area there was some property that involved litigation to proceed in my time on the planning board. It just lingers in my mind. So this zero, uh, Meyer Road, that's a four acre parcel. Am I correct? 00:09:24,467 S13: No, it's, um, 49,000ft² or so. 00:09:28,000 S4: Um, so. 00:09:28,667 S5: Why is it listed for sale? A zero Meyer, zero Meyer Lane. It's listed for sale. 00:09:36,100 S13: Oh, this is Meyer Road, not Meyer Lane. That may be the difference. 00:09:39,667 S5: That's the difference then. So this is my road. My apologies. Then. This is Maya Road. Well, too bad your client doesn't own zero Maya Lane. Because that's on the market for $799,000. 00:09:55,567 S5: Okay, so, God, please proceed. 00:09:58,267 S13: Um, so, I mean, if I may just briefly summarize the history of the property. Uh, my client, Charlie McCarthy, and her late husband had a definitive subdivision plan approved by this board in 2001, um, which created three new lots and resulted in the creation of a private way, Alexander Way, which is off Maya Road, um, and services two of the properties. Um, as part of that approval process, there was a planning board covenant, uh, granted by the McCarthys to the planning Board, in essence, to ensure that the timely and satisfactory completion of that private way, um, the road has long since been completed. There's a recorded partial release for one of the other properties, um, up kind of two towards the cul de sac portion of this, um, land, as you see. On the plan. Um, and the McCarthys retained two of the lots, which, if you look at the plan, that's lots. A1 and A2, lot A2, uh, contains what was their existing house? Uh, lot A1 is an undeveloped parcel. Um, to the left there. Um, the lots merged by virtue of law, um, as a result of a zoning change where this, um, this zoning district was upped up to from 40,000ft², minimum lot area to 80,000ft². Um, you know, I first started speaking with Mrs. McCarthy probably three years ago, trying to explore what she might be able to do, um, with this parcel. And in the meantime, um, the legislature passed the Affordable Homes Act, which, among other things, dramatically changed the merger doctrine. Um, and this parcel, thankfully for Mrs. McCarthy, is the poster child for the kinds of situations that the legislature was trying to address and so subject to certain restrictions. Um, being that the House can only be 8150ft² of heated space, I believe the language is, um, it has to be three plus bedrooms. This now reverts back to being a buildable lot. Um, Mrs. McCarthy found a buyer. She's under contract to to sell this lot. And during title due diligence, this planning board covenant was discovered to have never been formally released by the planning board as it relates to that lot A-1. Um, which is really the reason why we're here before you tonight is to just seek or to request, um, a partial release of that lot A-1 as to allow, you know, the cloud untitled to be removed and the sale to proceed. So I'm happy to answer any questions that the board may have. 00:12:33,267 S5: Which is, I can't I can't read, which is lot A-1 on. 00:12:38,767 S7: This. 00:12:39,000 S14: Lot here. The lot. Um. 00:12:42,000 S5: That one. 00:12:42,601 S14: Okay. Not on Alexander Way. The lot next door. 00:12:47,701 S5: Okay. 00:12:48,901 S4: So A1 and A2 were combined at one point or unintentionally. 00:12:54,167 S13: Yeah. So there are certain. 00:12:56,100 S4: And that's been. 00:12:56,801 S13: There are certain mechanisms that you can do to avoid that merger. That never happened. Um, the owners weren't aware of the zoning change. And then all of a sudden, um, it, it essentially merged the two of them to bring her lot at 60 Mile Road closer to conformance. 00:13:15,601 S4: Um, but isn't it. Excuse me, isn't a ah a zone? Yes. Okay. 00:13:20,601 S13: Um, and so, but now that this Portable Homes Act has changed, you know, we've spoken extensively with the building department about this. Um, everybody seems to be on board that this does kind of fit the criteria laid out by the legislature there. Um, and so, yeah. So now to thankfully the timing was was fortunate. Um, as as Mrs. McCarthy was looking for something to do with that land which is currently just unimproved and essentially just a wooded area next to her home. Um, and this has now allowed her to, to hopefully sell it, um, to be used as a single family. 00:13:55,968 S7: Yeah. And the covenant applies to the way that was created. 00:13:59,601 S13: That was the purpose of it. The purpose of it, that that the Alexander Way was completed. 00:14:05,467 S7: So in some sense, um, it's really just a deed encumbrance. It has nothing to do with access or frontage because A1 has frontage. So it's really just an encumbrance. An unnecessary encumbrance. 00:14:18,767 S13: Got it. A1 has no access from Alexandria. It really has nothing to do with it outside of being in the same subdivision. Yep. 00:14:27,300 S5: Okay. Yeah. That was that was interesting. I looked at this a little bit. This doctrine of merger. I mean, it happened really just by operation of common law. And then this, uh, legislature. Uh. Wow. What prompted them to think of that? You know? Well, anyhow, they did so. 00:14:46,000 S4: Quite. 00:14:46,567 S5: The beneficiary. 00:14:47,501 S13: I suspect that there were a number of people who found themselves in the same position that the McCarthys did, where, unbeknownst to them, they lost what they thought was a buildable lot. And, you know, I can say in my practice, I've come across probably ten similar situations where folks lost the ability to to sell off a buildable lot. And, um, that obviously has an economic impact on people. Um, and, you know, we're also dealing with a housing shortage in general. So I think that was part of the. 00:15:14,667 S4: Issue as well. 00:15:15,567 S5: Makes sense. Perfect sense. Uh, okay. Any further questions for, uh, our attorney here? Any discussion? Okay. So, uh, uh, would someone like to move to approve the request for a partial release. 00:15:39,767 S8: Oh! Move. 00:15:41,167 S5: Do I have a second? 00:15:41,901 S7: Second? 00:15:42,901 S5: Okay, so when I call your name, please indicate your assent. Jonathan. 00:15:47,968 S7: Poor Jonathan, poor I. 00:15:49,601 S5: Am Dahlquist. 00:15:50,801 S4: Emil Dahlquist II. 00:15:51,868 S5: Darcy. Dale. 00:15:53,267 S8: Darcy. Dale I. 00:15:54,567 S5: Beth her. 00:15:55,300 S10: I. 00:15:56,567 S5: Am Marty Crouch, I. 00:15:58,901 S13: Thank you. 00:16:00,100 S5: Do we have to endorse anything on this? 00:16:02,767 S13: Well, that's what I was going to suggest. I I'm I'd be happy to notarize this. If it would be helpful for you folks to sign. It needs to be signed by a majority of the planning boards. I would defer to Mr. Conners as to whether we have a majority present. We do. Um, if that's the case, if you'd be so willing. Um, so. 00:16:18,567 S10: We have four out of seven. 00:16:19,901 S5: Actually, we only have four who can sign tonight. 00:16:22,467 S10: But we have. Yeah, that's a majority. 00:16:24,801 S5: Yeah. 00:16:25,167 S10: We only have seven on the board. So. 00:16:26,701 S13: So that works. Um, I have the form here. If those would be, I would need to see one driver's license to be able to notarize it. I'll let you guys draw straws. 00:16:38,200 S10: I don't have my driver's license with me, so it's not me. Oh, actually. 00:16:42,767 S5: I should have signed it as Margaret. Then shoot. 00:16:47,000 S10: Well, um. 00:16:48,167 S5: Because my driver's license is. 00:16:50,000 S4: A. 00:16:50,400 S5: Marvel. I don't know what that is. Do you want a secret? I could sign it again if it poses a problem. 00:16:59,300 S9: Whenever you want to get her attention. Now. Okay, Margaret. 00:17:01,667 S4: Okay. 00:17:05,968 S4: Here we go. 00:17:07,400 S5: Uh, do we have to do anything with request to. With respect to Atlantis? Minor modification. 00:17:15,467 S14: I'll just write up a brief, um, notice of decision for you to sign. Marnie. 00:17:20,601 S10: Okay. Yep. 00:17:25,767 S7: Did somebody give you a license? I can give you a license. 00:17:29,200 S4: Oh. 00:17:31,267 S15: Thank you. Understand this really? Voluntarily? 00:17:33,467 S5: Oh, yes I do. It's my free acting. Free acting? Indeed. 00:17:41,801 S4: Perfect. 00:17:42,868 S13: Thank you very much. 00:17:44,067 S4: Thanks. 00:17:44,567 S5: Thank you. Safe travels back to wherever you live. 00:17:47,767 S13: Not far. Thankfully so. Thanks. 00:17:50,601 S4: Thank you. 00:17:51,267 S14: Thank you. 00:17:58,000 S5: Wow. This is a record for us. 717. 00:18:02,000 S10: Woo! 00:18:05,567 S10: We have no audience. Really? 00:18:07,167 S14: It's weird not having people here. 00:18:09,400 S10: Like, what's going on? 00:18:12,667 S5: Wow. So other business discussion of presentation, outreach and other preparations for the special town meeting. 00:18:22,367 S4: Um, can I just ask one question? Mark has put a note on his email to. The CBA's is scheduled to review a project on burial. 00:18:34,667 S12: Oh. Do you want. 00:18:35,400 S5: To discuss that now? Yeah, let's do that now. We can do that now. That's very interesting that. Zeba. Application. 00:18:46,467 S5: Proceed. 00:18:47,267 S14: Pull it up. 00:18:48,667 S4: Well, I just I guess the. I guess there's nobody here to represent that project, but. Well, no. What is it that we're being asked to do in this? 00:18:59,667 S14: I'm sorry. 00:19:01,000 S4: What is it that we're being asked to do? 00:19:03,567 S14: It's really. It's. It's a Zeba application. So it's not in front of the planning board right now. The reason I the reason I notified you of it is because if the Zeba were to approve it, it would go to the planning board for a site plan review. Um, and it's just the application that has generated some discussion. So it seemed appropriate to let you know that it was, you know, pending. 00:19:27,467 S4: Yeah. Yeah. 00:19:28,801 S5: Well, I, I'm familiar with that property on route one. A I think anybody who's lived in town long enough, um, knows that barn. It's, it's relatively dilapidated, but it's not very big. Um, and at one time, I think, uh, a fellow by the name of Joey Sargeant had a, like, a car repair place there, and I know he worked on horse trailers. Uh, so the the proposal is to expand that building as well as construct other buildings. So from what I ascertained, the, uh, the pre-existing nonconforming use was as a, as a car repair place or auto maybe used car Sales there, and there was apartment above. And what's being proposed is a number of buildings and also three apartments and several offices. So it's fairly expansive. So just for your edification, the CBA, if I am correct, would have to make determinations as to the nonconforming use and they could only approve this project if it determines that such change shall not be substantially more detrimental than the existing nonconforming use to the neighborhood. That's section 5.2 of our zoning bylaw. And then section 5.3 is a similar determination that the change shall not be substantially more detrimental than the existing non-conforming structure in to the neighborhood. So it appears that some of the, um, a butters, uh, a condominium association across the street have raised concerns about this. So it would definitely, if it were to be approved, come before the planning board for site plan review. But from what I looked at the drawings, it's certainly a much different site than what exists there now. 00:21:46,167 S7: So, Mark, do you have any idea what the proposed uses are? I understand office and apartment, but there's parking for up to 22 cars indoors, and I didn't count the parking spaces outdoors. Um, so it's it's and it says storage, but that seems to storing 22 cars. It's a puzzle. What what it's being used for. So when it comes to us for site plan review, um, site plan review only makes sense when we have context around the proposed use. Um. 00:22:21,400 S5: I think, Jonathan, you assume that the CBA will approve this. 00:22:25,367 S7: I'm not assuming anything. I'm just saying if it comes to us. Yeah, yeah. The preparation that I would want to make for myself is, is to understand what the proposed use is. Um, so. 00:22:38,767 S14: I had the same question. I spoke to, um, Brian Stein briefly about it. He said the, uh, so there's four buildings being proposed. The gentleman that's proposing it has a company. Um, I want to say it's a building company. He mentioned equipment like levelers, things like that that he would want to store. And two of the buildings. The other two buildings he would plan to rent out for office. Um, and one of the buildings has apartments. 00:23:06,267 S7: So you're saying contractor equipment? When you said leveler, that's like a road grader. 00:23:11,801 S14: Yep. 00:23:12,467 S7: Okay. So that takes a double deep bay. So there are 40 foot deep bays. Mhm. Um, so they're like, you know, 12ft wide, 40ft deep. So that'd be either two cars and end or a large piece of construction equipment. 00:23:30,801 S10: Mhm. 00:23:31,267 S7: Mhm. 00:23:34,367 S14: Yeah. I mean I asked him you know are these big trucks. And he said that was, it was smaller equipment. So this is showing nine by nine garage doors. Um but this is in order to do any type of building in Hamilton with more than four garage bays you need a special permit. Typically, this is a weird situation because they get around it from the nonconforming, um, piece. But, you know, I think that would be an argument that might be raised at the CBA that, um, typically a use like this would require additional zoning relief. 00:24:07,567 S7: Mhm. Yeah. So obviously I'm not trying to do the zoning boards work for them, but I'm just trying to understand more context for when the site plan review comes, if and when the site plan review comes before us. 00:24:20,501 S15: So. 00:24:23,400 S7: So that would be a major question for me is what's the proposed use. 00:24:27,467 S4: Right. 00:24:27,767 S9: Well, I understood what you just said. There's a couple of bays that I've used for the owners contract equipment. Then the offices, the rentals, the apartments, and maybe some of the auto spaces will also be rented out. 00:24:40,901 S14: Yeah. Two of the buildings are, from what I understand, are two are for the the owner, and then two would be rented out as offices mostly. And then one building has three apartments on the upper floor. 00:24:52,400 S5: So. So who would be the special permit granting authority? If a special permit is required, would it be the planning board? Because there's nothing in section five of the zoning by law that says that the CBA would be an entity granting a special permit? If I'm right, that section 5.2 and 5.3 would apply? 00:25:16,601 S14: Yeah, I, I reached out to the town's attorney about it and she gave me an opinion. I can give it to you, but, um, I would be very surprised if the CBA makes this decision tomorrow night. Um, it might be something where, you know, they asked for modifications to the plan. I'd expect some modifications. So, um, but typically under the bylaw, the CBA, I believe, is a special permit authority for garage questions. 00:25:44,601 S10: Okay. Yeah. 00:25:45,400 S5: Okay. But if even if it were to come to us for site plan review, I mean, it doesn't appear that there's anything about lighting on this, on these plans. So that would certainly have some impact on abutting property owners. And these plans don't show abutting properties, and they don't show the properties across Bay road that could be affected by, you know, which that get, you know, significantly more traffic than what exists now. I mean, that that that old barn. I don't even know if it was structural. Had any structural integrity. And it's probably being torn down. Is it being torn down? 00:26:28,901 S4: It's being torn down. Yes. Oh. Thumbs down. 00:26:31,300 S14: Yeah. So they would need a stormwater permit, and we're going to do this. They need site plan approval. So they would have to to improve the plant. They'd have to change the plans, provide some more information if it makes it past CBA. 00:26:44,067 S10: Mhm. 00:26:46,067 S7: That was the next thing I was going to ask about is drainage. 00:26:50,667 S7: The significant amount more impervious area. And the butters are in some places very very close. 00:26:57,667 S10: Mhm. 00:26:59,667 S7: And the buildings are pressed against the setback lines. 00:27:02,667 S4: And also I'm trying to imagine the maneuvering inside that property if you have trucking uh construction equipment. 00:27:09,667 S5: Right. 00:27:10,000 S4: If there were. 00:27:10,667 S5: Fire, if they, if you had to get a fire truck in there. 00:27:14,801 S7: Right. Well, even getting things in and out of those garage bays would be challenging. 00:27:18,868 S4: You can't do it. 00:27:19,767 S7: Yeah, you can't get enough. You can't get out of. 00:27:22,667 S4: That is going to get paid in the middle. Yeah. So there goes the coverage. Right. 00:27:30,000 S7: Right. So you can't back out of the last bays and you. There's not enough depth to back out of the, um, the the right hand garage. Yeah. So those are just some questions around site plan review. But the but again, it all really boils down to what the proposed use is. 00:27:48,567 S10: Yeah. 00:27:49,467 S4: Yeah. 00:27:50,467 S9: Is there any are there any considerations for, uh, contractor vehicles of that size in nature versus just cars and trucks in the garage? 00:28:00,067 S7: Well. 00:28:01,167 S4: That would. 00:28:01,400 S9: Be safety. 00:28:02,267 S16: That's a that's a good argument. 00:28:03,901 S14: I think that would be more detrimental. Right. Cause more impacts to the neighborhood. 00:28:07,601 S7: Yep. But that's not our jurisdiction. 00:28:10,300 S10: Mhm. Got it. 00:28:18,701 S5: Yeah. So it's really pre-existing non-conforming use and. 00:28:24,100 S7: And is one a state road? 00:28:26,801 S10: Yes. 00:28:27,701 S7: And so they're right now it has no curb cut. It's just a vast sea of crushed stone meeting Bay road. 00:28:34,567 S10: Mhm. 00:28:35,267 S7: Mhm. Um and that curb cut though is being moved. Is it being moved leftward into the undisturbed area. 00:28:44,868 S4: Yeah. 00:28:45,567 S10: They have like a little row of rock like big boulders in front. 00:28:50,667 S7: So in some sense it's a change of curb cut on a state road. 00:28:55,868 S14: Yes. 00:28:57,100 S15: Yeah. 00:28:57,501 S7: Yeah. So I would just. Can you turn that way? I want to look that over there. 00:29:02,367 S9: Oh, sorry. The laptop. 00:29:05,300 S7: Yeah. Yeah. So it's definitely a change of curb cut, because right now the curb cut is limited to lining up with the existing left bay of the building, right, so that the curb cuts, moving a good 40ft to the left on a state road. So that would be another that's a state question, you know. Um, but it's still a related to site plan review. 00:29:30,868 S10: Um. 00:29:34,601 S7: And I don't know what the site lines are like, you know, in that spot. I know it's a pretty dangerous corner at Gardner and Moulton, right? Yeah. 00:29:45,000 S12: Okay. Well. 00:29:47,100 S5: Uh, Mike, do you attend the CPA meetings? 00:29:49,868 S12: I do. Okay, so. 00:29:51,467 S5: You have heard our remarks. So it's at this point outside of our purview, but. 00:30:00,868 S10: We. 00:30:01,067 S12: Do have some comments. Okay. 00:30:03,868 S5: So now we can turn to the discussion of our presentation at the special town meeting. 00:30:14,267 S5: So, um, uh, has everyone had an opportunity to look at the FAQs? 00:30:22,467 S12: Uh, uh. 00:30:24,601 S5: Anal and I did attend an information center, a session at the Council on Aging. Uh, this, uh, this late morning today. And we did pass out the FAQs. But in the meantime, I. 00:30:39,801 S12: Did. 00:30:40,667 S5: Find a few, um, uh, very minor edits to the FAQs. And I'm wondering if anyone else had any edits or any concerns about the answers. And we can discuss these because, uh, ideally, these will be a handout at the special town meeting. 00:31:18,467 S4: He said. You had edits on this particular copy that we have here. 00:31:21,968 S5: I passed them on to Mark. I can tell they were getting mine right. You know, several just involved capitalization. It's so easy to spell town with a capital T or a small T and subdistricts was sometimes the district was capitalized, sometimes not. Um, and then I think there were. I can find it. 00:31:49,167 S4: That's okay. 00:31:49,868 S5: That's right. They were minor. You picked up. You picked them up. Mike. Mark the. 00:31:54,467 S4: Yeah. 00:31:54,868 S5: Yeah. So. 00:32:12,767 S5: And the other thing we did at this information session, we passed out the, um, the little flyer about, uh, Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, the Mandell family. And I found that to be utterly fascinating. 00:32:38,300 S5: So, Mark, thank you very much for doing it. 00:32:40,667 S4: Thank you. 00:32:43,968 S4: Also, you did the Brownsville overlay, this flyer. 00:32:47,567 S14: So this. 00:32:48,267 S7: Is. 00:32:48,901 S10: That. 00:32:49,667 S14: I want you to show you something we could do. This is all the content from the two pager. Oh, this. 00:32:56,000 S16: Is. 00:32:56,501 S5: Where did this come from? 00:32:58,167 S14: So all the text is from the two pager. It's just what we could do is try to put it in a Prettier format if you wanted, but. 00:33:08,467 S10: Oh, yeah. Is that. 00:33:09,567 S5: In? Yeah. 00:33:10,567 S4: It's Java. 00:33:11,567 S10: Yeah. And I think it breaks it up because I think people just go deer in the headlights with all the words. So I think it actually it kind of it gives you a vision for what the campus is. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was a great idea. 00:33:27,067 S8: 0000. 00:33:28,767 S4: Okay. 00:33:29,501 S5: Thanks. Oh. That's yours. Okay. Oh, heck. Mark, I didn't see that. 00:33:35,767 S4: That's right after the fact. 00:33:37,267 S7: I would definitely support the four page version. 00:33:40,267 S4: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 00:33:41,367 S7: Otherwise, you drown in words. 00:33:43,167 S9: Yeah. 00:33:45,267 S4: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great. 00:33:46,501 S5: Do you have a career in publishing? 00:33:48,267 S10: We love it. 00:33:52,167 S5: No, that's better than. 00:33:55,000 S10: Yeah. People can read it in chunks. It's. Yeah. It's good. 00:34:03,767 S17: Yeah, great. 00:34:06,667 S5: Oh, so you could just make my edits to this? 00:34:10,767 S10: Yep. 00:34:11,467 S9: Yep. 00:34:13,767 S4: Yeah. Great job. 00:34:18,100 S17: Really nice. Mm. 00:34:47,567 S5: So, other than congratulating Mark on our job. Very well done. Does anybody else have any comments on this? 00:34:55,567 S4: That's going to be part of the hand. That'll be a handout at the. Yes. Okay. 00:35:01,467 S10: Um, do we want to post this flyer anywhere beforehand? I feel like sometimes it's good to get information out before. Right? 00:35:13,067 S5: Joe often posts on Facebook on the Hamilton website. 00:35:16,667 S10: And we could post actually this flyer with the pictures. Yeah, yeah. And then we can post it. If you post it on the Hamilton, I can put it on some pages or he can whatever. 00:35:26,968 S5: And there's the other Hamilton site. Hamilton Commons is it. 00:35:31,167 S10: Yep. 00:35:31,667 S5: It could be posted there as well I assume. 00:35:34,667 S10: Yeah. And the Hamilton residents only page and there's a community page. So I, I'm a big supporter of getting more information out and having some of the conversations because we heard today some things I happen to be also at the Council on Aging. So, um, I think the more we let people vent their stuff, hopefully the less comes out at town meeting. So, um, we've already been vetted. I think we learned that with the whole school consolidation, because a lot of stuff was talked about beforehand. And so then when we got to town meeting, it wasn't a lot of new information. 00:36:09,000 S5: Right. So is there a consensus that we should use this as a handout? 00:36:13,167 S10: Yes. 00:36:13,767 S5: Also post it on social media and um, yeah, we could even just leave it at. 00:36:21,367 S4: That would be I mean, like, we haven't passed used on the steering committee for the master plan. We used the library as put information here. 00:36:30,100 S14: Yeah. 00:36:30,868 S10: And the CoA would be a good place to put it too, because they had the town meeting warrant today. Yeah. So to put this at the CoA, because they're likely to read something like this and they're also likely to come potentially. Okay. Because I think I you know, that's just my thoughts are usually, um, when you're on a fixed income, you're more concerned about revenue. So when you see something that relates to it. 00:36:54,701 S17: I. 00:36:54,968 S5: Don't know if we could leave copies of the honeycomb, but That's. 00:36:58,767 S17: A hot. 00:36:59,267 S14: That's not a bad idea. 00:37:00,367 S17: Yeah, that's. 00:37:01,167 S5: A hot spot. 00:37:02,167 S10: I bet you could ask a manager or something and say mm. 00:37:06,167 S18: Mhm. 00:37:06,901 S10: But we probably would need to get those out sooner than later. 00:37:09,868 S14: Oh for sure. 00:37:11,100 S7: So my only comment um, is that originally when messing with this, it was a lot of words and it was it'd be nice to get the title bigger, but there was no room. But now there's more room. If there's any way to make the title a bit bigger. 00:37:28,868 S16: Yeah. 00:37:30,100 S10: I love that. 00:37:34,467 S7: You know, because this was this was like wrestling was, you know, can you eliminate a period or a comma to make it fit, whereas this has more breathing room. 00:37:43,267 S16: Mhm. 00:37:51,567 S7: Make a good thing even better. 00:37:53,567 S17: Yeah. 00:37:54,167 S14: Yeah I'll play with this in the morning and maybe just do that. Maybe try to eliminate some of the white space, um, and finalize it by tomorrow, and we can get it out. 00:38:05,167 S10: If you want to reach out, I might be able to drop those off for you. Pick them up over. If you print them out. 00:38:12,267 S18: Okay. 00:38:13,000 S10: And then I can see about honeycomb as well, if that's helpful. 00:38:16,868 S18: Sure. 00:38:17,901 S7: I wouldn't worry about the white space again. It gives a just a rest relief. Yeah I would just focus on getting that title bigger. 00:38:26,300 S16: Sure. 00:38:31,400 S5: And you know, while you're posting things and dropping things off this. 00:38:37,467 S10: Well, definitely at the Koa, I could see them being very interested in reading this little thing. 00:38:42,000 S17: Yeah. 00:38:42,501 S7: Tiny, tiny comment on that just again, format wise. Uh, the very top, the attribution information provided by the Town of Hamilton planning Department. Um, it's so close to the margins, it's getting cut off. So if you can just scooch something down a little bit so it doesn't get cut off. Sure. 00:39:01,000 S5: Maybe put that information in the yellow box underneath. 00:39:06,267 S7: Yeah, you could put it as a subhead under the your title. 00:39:09,367 S5: It could be italicized in small, but at least people could see it. 00:39:13,367 S10: That's great. 00:39:15,100 S7: But again, very nice presentation. 00:39:19,000 S17: Above. 00:39:19,567 S10: And beyond. 00:39:20,367 S17: I like it. 00:39:24,200 S5: We hit the jackpot with our planning director, didn't we? 00:39:26,868 S7: I think so. 00:39:29,901 S10: Marketing. So good. Okay. 00:39:36,767 S5: Okay, so maybe we could, um, uh, talk about the slides that, um, Amy will put together. 00:39:48,100 S17: Um. 00:39:53,501 S4: Yeah. Just in terms of timing, I guess Mark got us a day or two extra for, um, sound moderator because he wanted slides by his 2nd of December. Mhm. And he's, uh, we are to either approve or change tonight. If you're going to change anything for tomorrow. He needs it tomorrow. So that's sort of our timeline. 00:40:15,467 S10: Okay. 00:40:15,767 S18: Great. Yeah. 00:40:16,767 S14: Do you want to do like a the run. 00:40:19,868 S10: You want to go through it. 00:40:21,501 S4: I could uh if you want to then, uh, go through it quickly. 00:40:27,367 S14: What do you think, Marty? 00:40:29,667 S5: If you would like it. Certainly. Uh, uh. 00:40:37,601 S14: The planning board. So the idea is to kind of animals going to do the lion's share of the the presentation, that special town meeting. Uh, would it be helpful for you to get an idea of what the presentation will entail tonight? 00:40:50,167 S10: I've seen it. So. 00:40:51,300 S18: Okay. 00:40:52,167 S10: So I thought today. 00:40:53,501 S17: But actually. 00:40:54,200 S7: Here's a thought. 00:40:54,868 S17: Though, we. 00:40:55,300 S5: Didn't go through all of it. 00:40:57,100 S10: Oh, okay. 00:40:58,167 S5: So so what the feedback that we got, or at least the comment I got. So so let's are there page numbers on these. 00:41:09,400 S10: Well first of all, how much time is the presentation supposed to be for at town meeting. Like do we have a time amount that we're trying to set aside? 00:41:18,901 S14: So yeah. So there's it's not just going to be email. It's going to be Marnie's going to make a brief introduction. Then it goes to email for the most of it. I'm going to do two sides on talking about the groundwater protection district. 00:41:32,167 S5: And that's you right. 00:41:33,701 S18: Yeah. 00:41:34,467 S14: And then it'll go to Bill Olsen who'll talk mostly about the development agreement. 00:41:40,267 S4: He has two slides. 00:41:41,267 S5: Right. And you have two slides. 00:41:43,200 S10: And then I after today, this morning I had said to Mani, I think it might be worthwhile for us to add a section of the biggest objections, which sounds like he's going to be talking about the groundwater protection overlay district, which is one of them. And then today it came out. I don't know if there's others objections, but I almost feel like we're better off bursting the bubble instead of because the air kind of went out of the room when some when people share things and they take all the attention and then everybody's up in arms a little bit, whatever. So, um, one of the people who was there was I overheard at the end saying they were going to bring up the Bridge Street issue. So maybe, I don't know, I just thought, I don't want us to get distracted. And I wonder if it's better for us to say we know people didn't weren't happy about the Bridge Street situation and just, like, nip it in the bud before an the butter gets up and then start saying their thing and then we're off target. Okay. But if we say it first. Yeah. So we can come back to that, I. 00:42:54,367 S17: Just I know just. 00:42:56,167 S5: Where to put it, though, Mark, with respect to the groundwater protection overlay district in that particular slide. The what you could add there is that the Planning Board amended the stormwater management bylaw and compliance with that stormwater. That new revised, much more robust stormwater management bylaw is required in the Brownsville Overlay District. 00:43:21,167 S7: And it addresses steep slopes. 00:43:23,267 S17: Right. 00:43:23,868 S10: Because we saw that there was an issue with and we. 00:43:27,467 S18: You could. 00:43:27,767 S10: Actively yeah. I my only. 00:43:30,767 S18: I just want. 00:43:31,400 S10: To not have the energy go out of the room because somebody. 00:43:34,100 S17: Is right. 00:43:35,000 S5: Right. And I'm just that's where it should go. When we talk about the DPA, we should talk about stormwater management. 00:43:41,300 S17: At the same time. 00:43:42,000 S10: Perfect. And I don't know if there's any other objections that come up as we're thinking about it, but those were the two that I. 00:43:48,100 S17: Had written down. 00:43:48,767 S5: The other thing that came up, and this was these are the most difficult questions to address. And they don't really involve the Browns Hill overlay district. So one of the first questions was has anybody really evaluated the cost, you know, of the children in the school? Well, that's not a land use issue, but it is an issue for certain people in town. So they, uh, you know, focus on one element. So the revenue stream. And so there's been a lot of talk that that this, uh, development agreement in concert with the Brownsville Overlay District will generate revenue for the town. It will generate revenue for the town, the sale of the buildings, those buildings will go on the tax rolls, and there will be increased revenue. That revenue can be offset by the cost of educating the children. But that's something I think that that Bill Olsen has to address vis a vis the development agreement, uh, because it's really not something that that we could amend further, even if that were possible. The Brownsville Overlay District to talk about revenue from apartments, that's that's the select board has to hit that nail on the head and and really or the fin con can address it. Either way, it's tied to the number of children that may live in the apartments or any potential development of the site. And that, of course, would happen over time. There's no way of truly ascertaining how many children will be in the school. They're 40 now. How many? 00:45:38,067 S10: Well, I think the gamble consultant, um, that Mark forwarded to me because I wanted to look at those numbers. It's 0.18 students for 200 for the current layout, and that would be about 38 students, which we have 40. 00:45:55,167 S5: Is that just just for the apartments? 00:45:57,267 S10: Yes, that's for the current situation. Right. Would be so I think it turned into 4038 and we have 40. So basically whatever the consultants came out with, um, single family homes were 1.2 children per home. Um, I did explain to someone because they were concerned and I'm like, you realize that $1 million house or $1 million property is not going to cover even the cost of one child. So I think people don't really understand how the whole school budget impacts. Um, so and then we also have to consider the fact that that for those 40 kids that are currently in the school system, are currently in the school system, are getting no tax revenue. So to me, we need to look at the incremental. If there's going to be an incremental increase, that's where it would come off of the $500,000 in revenue that would be newly generated, because right now we have 40 kids in the schools. I think I just looked at it differently than Fenton did. So and then we did get I asked, um, Jane Dooley, the assessor, and she did come back to me yesterday that the estimated assessed value based on rental costs would or prices would be about 35 million, which would bring in about 500,000, um, or 530,000, something like that. Um, and that is a different number than fin con came in. So I'm going back and forth with John McGrath right now asking the questions, because I don't know if they already in the way they did their numbers with kids. They kind of just did. They didn't do not like new kids. They just said. 50 kids is going to cost us. And but some of that's already being paid for. Does that make sense? Jonathan, you look confused. 00:47:52,267 S7: Um, the what you're saying is there's already 40 kids in the school system from the from the from the apartments, correct? Yes. That we get. No. Okay. 00:48:02,100 S10: And we get no revenue right now. So to. 00:48:04,100 S18: Me that. 00:48:04,467 S7: Would be that would be a point for the fin com to. 00:48:07,200 S18: Make clear. 00:48:08,267 S10: So I'm trying to go over that with, with John I haven't read I haven't watched all of their meetings. So I don't know if they've talked about that. I looked at the graphic he sent me today and it didn't really clarify that. So I think that's an important difference. Um, 40 B also came up, um, and we talked about, you know, if you have three bedrooms with 40 B, you have to have people in each of the bedrooms, so you're more likely to have kids. There's some confusion about what our because you basically brought up. We can have another nonprofit come in and buy the units. What are the alternatives? Um, and if another nonprofit comes in, we're still going to have kids in the school system, potentially, and we're still not going to get revenue. We could have a 40 B come in and we're you know, to me, we already it's a known quantity. We know what already exists. We know more than half of them are either studios or one bedroom. So it's just trying to figure out, um, helping people process because some people were getting confused because Vin Comm came back and said, we're only going to get about $100,000 a year in revenue. And originally they heard we were getting 500,000. So people feel a little like bait and switch maybe. So we were chatting about it. 00:49:29,000 S17: And this. 00:49:29,467 S5: Is something that really has to be addressed by the income because it's not it's. 00:49:34,067 S17: It's. 00:49:34,567 S5: Really not. 00:49:35,567 S10: Our. 00:49:35,868 S17: Thing. It's, you know, Please try again. 00:49:39,467 S9: I didn't like that answer. 00:49:42,167 S5: I'll try again. 00:49:43,167 S17: But anyhow, I know. 00:49:44,267 S10: I just. I had done my own due. 00:49:46,267 S17: Diligence. 00:49:47,200 S5: But I think it's very important that John McGrath be able to, you know. 00:49:53,667 S17: And. 00:49:53,968 S10: He might not have had the assessed value. He basically assumed it was going to be his assumptions were $100,000 a unit, and this comes out to an average of $170,000. That 35 million number that I got from the assessor. So I, you know, he may need to make some changes because he may not have known those things. 00:50:13,567 S17: He might not have had that information. 00:50:15,067 S5: You need to have a conversation. 00:50:16,400 S10: I am in I'm emailing. 00:50:18,400 S5: And he. 00:50:19,167 S17: Has been writing. 00:50:20,100 S5: And. 00:50:20,467 S17: Then. 00:50:20,667 S10: So we know. 00:50:21,367 S5: And then, you know, it's too bad what the question wasn't recorded. But that's going to be one of the questions that he has asked. His assumption about the report. But see, the way I look at it, even if the revenue is less than what's anticipated. We still get the monetary contribution of it's going to be 300. 00:50:47,267 S10: I think it's like 500,000 up front. Myron, what is how much are the two? 00:50:51,667 S5: 103 hundred. 400. Up front. 00:50:54,200 S17: 400. 00:50:54,667 S5: So we still get 400 up front. And the alternatives are bad. So it's not just. Your decision should not be made. This is the point that we can make. It should not be made based on just one criteria. It shouldn't be made just based on revenue. It shouldn't be made just based on, you know, like the wastewater treatment plant. You have to look at the bigger picture about what is gained and what is lost. So what is lost? 00:51:30,968 S9: But I think I agree 100%. But I think what's important. And maybe I don't know if you were alluding this, but Jonathan's calculation should be, and he may have already done this, cause sometimes he does it, and he puts on the website four pages deep. I don't know where it is, but don't put the calculations out there so people can analyze it before the meeting. 00:51:46,868 S5: Yes, yes. 00:51:48,100 S17: Well, it. 00:51:48,667 S10: Is in it is in the packet that I believe that's at the like CoA. 00:51:54,300 S17: So I can go. 00:51:55,200 S5: On the town web page and you don't even have to look. It's right on the front page. The warranty. 00:52:01,000 S17: Yeah. 00:52:01,200 S10: I mean we could post that too. I think. 00:52:03,300 S17: It's. 00:52:03,667 S10: Worthwhile having that kind of conversation. 00:52:05,801 S9: Could it be out before? Right. Yeah. 00:52:07,200 S10: But I think maybe I don't know. I mean, he may say, oh yeah, I still think my numbers are right. And so but I think clearly what I got from the assessor yesterday is a very different number than he was working with. 00:52:20,267 S17: Right. 00:52:20,667 S10: And so and I just want to make sure that when he was doing his numbers, he's thinking like the 40 that's already on the campus needs to almost be it's above the 40 that we start counting, because right now we're getting no revenue for those 40. And so I, I'm trying to put myself in the average voter's mind and trying to keep it as simple as possible. 00:52:46,467 S17: Right. 00:52:46,801 S5: No. And I applaud you for for making that effort. Absolutely. So I think that that the income has to address that. 00:52:56,467 S17: Yeah. 00:52:57,000 S5: Um, uh. 00:53:00,868 S5: With respect to the wastewater treatment plant, I mean, we can we've said over and over and over again, it's the DEP, right? Oversees that plant. And if you think about single family houses on the site with individual septic systems, so the Board of Health approves the septic system and is involved at, at its creation. And then when it fails and the rest of the time all bets are off. So with the wastewater treatment plant being monitored daily by, I think daily, am I correct? I mean, record keeping has to happen. Merwin, is it correct that that wastewater treatment plant is monitored every day? 00:53:42,400 S13: Yeah. 00:53:42,567 S4: Someone on, say, 3. 00:53:43,567 S15: To 4 hours every day during the week. 00:53:45,267 S17: Yeah. 00:53:45,801 S10: So and I think you mentioned to me maybe Marnie I can't remember but did it with 40. Be the pod. 00:53:54,801 S17: Could. 00:53:55,267 S5: Could be the subject of a waiver. 00:53:57,267 S10: They may not be yet. So they may waive any jeopardy if there was a 40 B project on site because it's a local regulation and not a state. 00:54:07,601 S17: Right. 00:54:08,000 S10: So that I think those are in the weeds a little bit, but they may maybe things that pop up or pop up in conversations between now and then. 00:54:18,801 S5: Uh, so let's think about this. So. 00:54:21,501 S10: So that might be good for you Mark on that pod presentation is mentioning the 40 bee May or may not be. If there was a 40 b, I don't know. 00:54:33,000 S14: Yeah. 00:54:33,367 S10: Any or no. 00:54:34,400 S14: Any local regulation you can trust a waiver from. So GP or local regulation right. 00:54:41,868 S14: Well I think another point on Cape Cod is I remember when the planning board recommended that change so that it's 80,000ft² per dwelling unit. Yep. The reason I remember Jonathan saying the reason for that, a big reason for that is because of septic systems. You have so many septic systems. Well, we don't have septic systems on this site. We it's required under the development agreement that any development hook into the wastewater treatment plant. Right. 00:55:08,400 S7: So it's it's sort of off the subject is is the point here. 00:55:11,801 S14: It wasn't the reason, uh. 00:55:14,467 S7: Wasn't the reason to tighten that bylaw. That's that's for single family residences, you know. Yeah. So and the other thing, not to get lost on this, but, um, what happened in the past with residential applications is they wanted to completely eliminate the application of the iPod. Um, on the the other cluster housing projects. And here we're not eliminating the pod, we're just applying the parts that that are applicable. So it's to compare the, the situation at, at the two at Canterbury and at Patent Peyton Ridge is again apples and batteries. They have nothing to do with each other. Right. Because they're what they wanted to do is eliminate any discussion of the pod. We haven't eliminated the discussion of it. All of the applicable sections are fully in force. So those are all things to put to bed if they come up. 00:56:14,667 S17: Right. 00:56:15,400 S7: So the other thing that hasn't been mentioned is the traffic issue. And again that's not really planning boards issue, but an interesting um, note I think is that uh, I think that Darwin had mentioned that at the peak of the, uh, residence, you know, the, uh, the enrollment of the, the seminary that we basically are at the same density of traffic that we would be at full buildout, um, of what's proposed in the, the body. So they're not exactly the same, but they're similar. 00:56:55,000 S5: Well, with respect to that, in the development agreement, the seminary has agreed to pay $20,000 toward a traffic study. Okay. And then with the special permit process, we can require a traffic study. 00:57:09,767 S17: Right. 00:57:11,100 S5: So. 00:57:13,000 S7: So anyway, that's going to come up and we just need to be, to Beth's point, be proactive about things. Try to try to put it to bed before the public gets up and makes noise. 00:57:21,667 S10: We already know about it. Yes we understand these are the objections. These are how we feel about those objections. But if somebody it was you just they get up and they say their emotional thing and people who aren't paying attention get sucked in. 00:57:35,868 S5: So here's the question. So I think with respect to the any questions, we have to we have to understand who answers what question. So if there's a question about revenue and and costs. So revenue is one thing about a new coming in and costs are another. So if we get this revenue cost question you know, should that be answered by John McGrath. Probably yes. If we get a traffic question, should that be answered by Bill Olson? I would say probably yes, because of the $20,000 set forth in the development agreement to do a traffic study. And also I think Doctor Sundquist said today that the police and fire were on the campus, and they recommended making the access. 00:58:37,067 S10: On Woodbury. 00:58:38,167 S5: Not on Woodbury. He said Woodbury. But I think he meant Bridge Street. 00:58:42,367 S4: I'm not sure whether. Yes, I. 00:58:43,868 S17: Thought. 00:58:44,167 S4: Bridge. 00:58:44,801 S5: I think it's bridge, isn't it? 00:58:47,067 S17: I don't know. 00:58:47,467 S10: I think he was talking. 00:58:48,267 S17: Yeah, I. 00:58:48,767 S5: Think he meant to say bridge and inadvertently. 00:58:51,000 S17: Said, oh, yeah, that would. 00:58:52,567 S5: Correct. 00:58:53,000 S17: It himself. Yes. 00:58:53,868 S4: Nobody in the audience picked up on that. And I was wondering. 00:58:57,067 S17: I was surprised, actually. 00:58:58,667 S4: The sidelines, whether that that who was suggesting that. But anyway, it should have. 00:59:03,100 S17: Been this site. 00:59:03,801 S10: So that would actually be a better place for it to go two way traffic. Woodbury wouldn't be as good, I don't think. 00:59:09,868 S17: No, no. 00:59:11,667 S5: It's good. 00:59:12,767 S7: But Woodbury would be dangerous. 00:59:14,567 S17: Yeah, exactly. 00:59:16,000 S5: Yeah, but but, you know, it's it's like any, you know, the other intersections. sections. That's bad as miles were road. So we have bad intersections all over town. So yeah, the sightlines could be improved. And maybe that's something that the traffic study will recommend. 00:59:33,667 S10: But I think bridge is not too bad. I mean I think it's fine. 00:59:38,067 S17: Yeah I don't. 00:59:39,067 S7: A worse intersection is, is um, Woodbury and Essex. 00:59:43,667 S17: That's horrible. 00:59:44,667 S7: It's it's ranked as one of the worst. Yeah. And it's easily fixed and it is affected by traffic going moving around Gordon Conwell so. 00:59:53,167 S17: Well it's. 00:59:53,767 S5: The problem is. 00:59:55,100 S7: It's a sight line issue. 00:59:56,100 S5: But it's also a speed issue. 00:59:57,701 S7: Yes. 00:59:58,367 S5: It's really a speed issue because you got. 01:00:01,367 S7: Easily fixed sight lines. But off the off the subject off the subject. 01:00:04,901 S19: The back end. 01:00:05,868 S7: Yes. 01:00:06,267 S5: Okay. So if cost goes to John McGrath. 01:00:09,767 S17: Yeah. 01:00:10,667 S5: Traffic goes to Bill Olson. And then anything about the road and stormwater management goes to Mark. 01:00:24,701 S17: Okay. 01:00:27,300 S10: And and can I just ask a clarifying question. So as a citizen I can say if I if depending on how numbers come out as a citizen, I could share my own thoughts. Not as a planning board member. 01:00:42,767 S5: At the meeting. 01:00:43,667 S17: Correct? Sure. Okay. 01:00:46,000 S10: I'm just saying, if I feel like I think I did that, well, I don't know if I did that with three or no, but anyways, um, I just think. 01:00:54,467 S17: I. 01:00:54,667 S5: Should qualify that. Only if you support this. 01:00:57,467 S17: Just. 01:01:00,067 S17: I'm not saying what I support. 01:01:02,667 S10: Um, I just think that sometimes people need a different way to hear something. Or maybe. So I just wanted to say I may. 01:01:10,868 S17: The only other. 01:01:12,100 S5: Thing that came up was that, um, uh, that one of the Butters wanted a deed restriction on the entire campus to essentially fix the provisions of the body onto the campus. And and Doctor Sundquist rightly said he would have to go to his board of directors to get approval for that, and the likelihood is that he would not get that approval. 01:01:44,267 S17: And but. 01:01:45,100 S10: We still have a vote. 01:01:46,267 S17: Like if. 01:01:46,701 S10: It was ever going to change, you still have a whole process to go through. It doesn't just like somebody decides to make a change. So there are other. 01:01:55,167 S17: And I can't. 01:01:56,067 S5: Say the town of Hamilton all of a sudden going, wow, let's develop this campus. So there's not a tree or shrub or a brush. Let's pay. 01:02:05,300 S17: Parents. Agreed. 01:02:06,367 S5: I can't see that happening. So, uh, you know, never say never in 50 years. It could be a whole different world, but I. From what we've observed as planning boards, is a very conservative town in terms of change. So I think if they adopt this Brownsville overlay district, they're not going to say we would like to see more intense development on this site as opposed to less. Would you agree? 01:02:35,100 S4: Yeah. It's it seems that we spent I mean, the whole presentation, the part that I'm doing is a technical document, and we didn't get any kind of response from the public on the technical document, in. 01:02:48,901 S17: Fact. 01:02:49,167 S5: Except I did get a response on. 01:02:51,968 S4: PR. 01:02:52,467 S5: On the effort. Like, it just isn't. 01:02:54,868 S10: Well, and I think also any time we need to use acronyms. So like you said, A and I, I know we get it. But like people are going to go deer in the headlights. 01:03:03,267 S4: So what I was getting at uh, was uh, and all these questions that we've just been talking about need to be addressed. We have to be available to answer questions. So I assume that the Q&A is going to happen after the presentation. Yeah. The public gets up and speak, and then somebody has to be designated to respond to some of those questions, and I'm not sure how that's going to happen. You do it in real time or somebody or do you kind of collect, you know, is the moderator going to collect comments? 01:03:30,767 S17: I think. 01:03:31,267 S4: It's then somebody is going to be asked to address. 01:03:34,167 S10: It, usually by person. 01:03:35,467 S5: So you move the motion, there's a second, then there's the presentation and then there's the discussion and then the vote. 01:03:44,167 S10: Well people come up. Yeah. And chair. And then if somebody has a question that's when we would ask answer those. 01:03:50,567 S17: Yes. And I just. 01:03:51,567 S4: Ask the. 01:03:51,901 S17: Question. Yeah. 01:03:52,667 S10: For each individual person we don't collect all the questions and answer. 01:03:56,367 S17: Yeah. 01:03:56,767 S5: So so I think that anything with respect to the overlay district itself, it's provisions and it's metrics get addressed by the planning board. We've already OD in stormwater management with designated mark, and anything more geared toward the development agreement would have to go to the select board, I think. But we need to coordinate for sure. We need to coordinate this with them because I think we're. I don't know whether they discussed this at their meeting last night or not, but I suspect we might be, you know, a step ahead of them in terms of our preparation for them. 01:04:38,467 S4: I just wonder if in some way that we have to hand over these slides to the moderator tomorrow. But so if there are any changes, it's going to be pretty minor. But what we're not handing over on notes, we're talking about each one of the slides, whether we should start to think about where to interject a comment or try to address one of these issues that have been brought up. You know, approach it directly within the slideshow. Well, we don't have any. I'm already going to be going through this pretty quickly. Yeah, to me. 01:05:12,868 S5: But I don't think cost in traffic get. 01:05:15,667 S4: You know we don't. 01:05:16,300 S17: Know. Right. 01:05:17,467 S10: Those aren't. 01:05:18,300 S17: Yeah. Right. 01:05:18,767 S5: The only way you can address traffic is with respect to the uses, because we've limited the uses to the reuse of the existing buildings, but they're primarily residential uses. With, with with an emphasis on senior housing, which generates less traffic than other types of housing. And right. The long term care facility, which again, I think Abramson Associates, uh, indicated that was, uh, you know, had less traffic. 01:05:50,567 S17: So, yeah. 01:05:50,968 S4: There's negligible. 01:05:51,868 S5: Is negligible. 01:05:52,868 S17: Yeah. 01:05:53,467 S5: So the commercial development is is very limited to, uh, Pilgrim Hall and the gatehouse and then the retreat house by special permit. And, you know, given Doctor Sundquist presentation as to what the seminary has done with the retreat house, I don't think they're going to leave that anytime soon. I hope not, at any rate, because they've refurbished it and it's lovely on the inside. So, you know, it would require a special permit for commercial use. But I don't see that happening in, in, in the next ten years or so unless I'm wrong. So I think in terms of the slides, the only one that really, I think just lost everybody was the one on the far right. And in terms of the FSR, I think it's just to say that the density on the campus will or intensity of development, which is more accurate but will mean no greater than exists right now. And in the middle campus it would be equivalent. What did you say to, uh. 01:07:03,667 S17: Was it. 01:07:04,000 S4: Middle? Middle campus? It's equivalent to a two acre to one acre zoning. 01:07:07,467 S17: Yeah. 01:07:07,767 S5: And that's what you can say. Yeah. And that's very clear to people. 01:07:11,100 S10: Yeah. And that's easy to digest. 01:07:12,767 S5: Easy to digest. 01:07:14,000 S7: Should we let AML run through the presentation or. 01:07:17,367 S17: Yeah. 01:07:17,767 S7: Yeah. Okay. If we do, what I'd like to suggest is that we not interrupt him. But take the slides and write your questions and comments and suggestions on the slides. But don't interrupt them so we can keep with the flow. And we can also sense sort of how much time it takes. 01:07:36,100 S5: I'm going to I'm going to. 01:07:37,567 S17: That's great. Is that reasonable? That sounds. 01:07:39,601 S10: Amazing. And we say how much time we're hoping it takes. 01:07:43,300 S7: Well, let's let them. Let's let them go. 01:07:45,767 S10: I didn't know if there was a goal that we were looking to. 01:07:48,367 S14: We're the four of us. We're looking to keep that within about 30 minutes. 01:07:52,901 S17: Okay, great. 01:07:55,367 S5: And I can just say this, you know, in terms of my introduction to all of this, it's really just to thank all the people who have been involved over the years and that's, that's, you know, a fairly long list, but not that long. Mhm. And also to just maybe note the purposes and, and I'll have to say but it's really more of a, a thank you to all the people who, who really worked on this really hard and spent a lot of time and then turn it over to Amol and, and then I think it's really important that, that the people get to ask questions that that to me is let people come up and say they support it or not, as the case may be, but, um, that's that's my take on things. So go ahead. I won't say another word. 01:08:50,400 S4: Mark, do you want to set up the slides. You want to talk about the first slide, Mani and then I'll do the second. 01:08:57,667 S17: Oh. 01:08:58,667 S5: That was my introduction. 01:09:00,467 S4: Okay. We can go right to the second slide. 01:09:02,467 S17: So I. 01:09:03,167 S4: Was going to speak while this was on the. 01:09:04,701 S17: Way. 01:09:05,000 S5: What I was going to really say is, why are we here? You know, we're here to approve this Brownsville overlay district, but in evaluating it, we the people voting have to understand that it operates in concert with the development agreement, and the two of them together provide these enormous benefits to the town, as will be evident in the presentations that followed. How's that? Short and sweet. 01:09:34,567 S4: That's good. Don't get into a lot of detail on that. 01:09:37,200 S17: Okay. 01:09:38,367 S7: Again, no interruptions. 01:09:41,200 S4: All right. Second slide. Then. 01:09:46,567 S4: This presentation is going to focus on the the rationale behind the board initiative and the benefits to the community. The key questions involved. As you can see on the screen what we aim to achieve, what elements of the site we will be preserved are altered types of land use is proposed, their locations, and the scale of development anticipated. This helps frame the scope and objectives guiding the project. Next. 01:10:15,901 S4: So why are we choosing to undertake this effort? The 2024 Master Plan encourages reflection on underlying reasons such as community needs, environmental concerns and development pressures that necessitate a thoughtful approach to managing Brown. Browns Hill the Browns Hill area. 01:10:36,200 S4: Next. 01:10:40,901 S4: The Planning Board had a workshop in January 2023 to discuss strategies to guide writing the body. The first decision we made was to consider consider the entire site comprehensively to prevent fragmented or piecemeal development. The second decision prepare a set of guiding principles to balance fiscal responsibility, social benefits, and an environmental stewardship key. Key outcomes would include increasing town revenues and promote flexible housing options and protect the natural and cultural resources. Next. 01:11:15,901 S4: What specific site features are valued? Well, step number one the planning board. And we find this in our our over, um, open space is to identify and delineate aspects of or elements of this specific site that are valued and should be preserved. Again, this is specific site as opposed to guiding principles. Heritage. Landscape. Historically and cultural. Significant buildings, scenic vistas, buffers, mature trees and steep slopes and public access to the site. Recognising these elements at the outset is crucial for maintaining the character and ecological integrity of the entire campus as the property transitions over time. Next. 01:12:01,267 S4: Site context is shown here, referencing key streets such as Woodbury Bridge, Essex Streets, and highlighting the Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary property perimeter in yellow. The slide also identifies abutting zoning classifications such as R1, A, R1, D, and RA, and the acreage of the property. This spatial concept or context is essential for regulating development constraints and opportunities. Next. 01:12:30,167 S4: The slide highlights all existing buildings and their locations for reference later in the presentation. Legacy buildings are shown in yellow educational buildings in white, apartments in blue, and the wastewater treatment facility in green. The legacy buildings, including the retreat House, Pilgrim Hall and Gatehouse, as well as educational facilities, apartments, and wastewater treatment plant. Next. 01:12:57,767 S4: The focus here is on areas excluded from new development to protect sensitive environmental and cultural features. These include areas with wetlands. As you can see on its. It's all of the area within the PolyGram that's drawn there on a diagram. Everything, including wetlands on the left hand side of that sheet. Heritage landscape in the middle and steep slopes on the. 01:13:20,467 S17: Right. 01:13:21,767 S4: Are all designated as protected or no build areas. This careful delineation helps ensure that development respects natural constraints and preserves important site characteristics. Next. 01:13:35,601 S4: Excluding the protected areas, what remains are the subdistricts for potential development, specifically the upper campus at 20 acres plus then middle Campus at 18 plus acres. These potential development subdistricts are shown in yellow guiding, where growth can occur within the overall site framework. Next. 01:13:59,767 S4: There are five tables within with data that shaped the overall body code. These tables define the rules and standards that regulate development intensity, building dimensions, and other key factors to ensure orderly and appropriate growth within the subdistrict. Next. 01:14:19,367 S4: Table one establishes how the site is subdivided for regulating purposes, and references a zoning map that locates the five subdistricts. Table one summarizes development and permitting requirements, including by right reuse or renovation of apartments and legacy buildings. Special permits for building expansions or rebuilding, and regulations for new construction. Providing a clear regulatory framework. Next. 01:14:47,601 S4: Along the table one you have the body zoning map shows the five subdistricts with their names and respect respective acreage settled. Upper campus has the educational buildings in the gatehouse. The middle campus is the blue area with legacy buildings and wastewater treatment. The lower campus in purple with existing apartments and the heritage landscape in a light green color in the center and in natural zones with wetlands. The darker green on the left hand side of that diagram. The map also highlights Underground Town Reservoir on the on the upper campus. A north campus and key streets for orientation. 01:15:33,067 S4: Table two is next. Slide. Table two. 01:15:37,868 S4: Use regulations. Land uses are stipulated here. The existing legacy buildings and multifamily dwellings, townhouses, senior housing, long term health care facilities, community centers, and accessory uses. Those are the land uses that are written in this chart. Table two specifies which uses are allowed by right or require special permit in each subdistrict. Now you cannot read this from a distance. This chart on the right hand side. But what it does is stipulate what it identifies for different types of uses residential, commercial, community facilities and accessory uses. It shows where they're permitted, what particular subdistricts and what the permitting process is by right, special permit. And those those that do not have either a P or an SB are not allowed. So use is not shown in this table are not allowed. 01:16:38,367 S4: Next slide. 01:16:42,467 S4: Building types. Building types are the organizing feature of BOE body. You don't really have to understand what that means, but Characteristics of each building type are stipulated in table three that relate specific building type to its use and form as additional measures to control development. Next slide. 01:17:07,968 S4: Table four is dimensional regulations and it manages building height, footprint, floor area and spacing. This will become evident a little bit later. Why these are important. Footprint and floor area per building are derived from multiples of average dwelling size unit sizes. These standards help control the scale and massing of new construction, and these will be used in relation to what you see in table five, which is a next slide. 01:17:35,367 S4: This is kind of the culminating slide in terms of the tables because it is the density standards. This is what it comes down to. The density is measured by floor area ratios for each subdistrict for example, and the floor area ratio will be explained in the next slide, but it is basically the gross floor area of the building divided by the gross square footage of the lot. For example, lower campus subdistricts have by right development, fixed limits around 102,000ft². Middle and upper campuses have ranges subject to special permits. Finally, the cumulative allowable building area for the entire property is capped at 400,000ft², identical to the existing gross square footage on the site. 01:18:23,801 S4: Next slide. The concept of floor area ratio is the ratio of building floor area divided by lot size. Farmers are zoning tools, not design tools. When used in conjunction with other dimensional standards such as height, footprint, total floor area, and building spacing. Farmers define density, and there's also examples of residential types that you can see in the lower left hand corner. Uh, f a r is for r.r. R1VR1A and and one quarter acre lots. And as I said, if you go back to table five, the middle campus is somewhere between 0.50.05 and 0.1. So it's between two acre and one acre zoning. The upper campus is somewhere between 0.1 and 0.15, so it's roughly one acre to one half acre zoning. 01:19:23,667 S4: Next slide. 01:19:26,601 S4: The body zoning bylaws achievements are preserves, heritage, landscape, historic buildings, scenic vistas, mature trees, buffers for privacy, steep slopes from development. And it provides diverse housing options, including senior housing. It balances development across subdistricts and it caps the total total site development at existing levels. Commercial development is strictly limited to reuse of legacy buildings, ensuring compatibility with the site's character. 01:20:00,100 S4: This is where I would introduce Mark, then who will then talk about the God. 01:20:05,300 S17: I do point. 01:20:06,467 S5: Out that that was excellent. Ten minutes a little was perfect. A little over ten minutes. 01:20:13,501 S17: Yeah. Yep. 01:20:14,767 S7: It felt like you were rushing a little bit toward the end. I think you could you could relax a little bit. 01:20:20,200 S17: Because. 01:20:20,567 S5: I think that that this is. 01:20:21,868 S17: Good. 01:20:22,100 S4: We'll talk more about the first. 01:20:23,667 S17: Well, no, not not more words. 01:20:25,267 S3: But you don't have to rush your words. 01:20:27,501 S17: We're gonna take the shepherd's hook and pull you off stage. 01:20:31,367 S10: If you talk about. 01:20:32,067 S17: Far. 01:20:33,367 S10: No, I think that was excellent. You got interrupted several times today when you were sharing. But I felt like that the pace and like it all made sense and it wasn't too much information. 01:20:46,267 S17: Right? 01:20:46,868 S10: So it was really great. What you just presented was just, like, perfect. 01:20:51,200 S17: Yeah. 01:20:51,467 S5: And so if you know, as Jonathan said, it felt just a little rush. So, you. 01:20:57,000 S17: Know, toward. 01:20:57,267 S5: The end. Take a deep. 01:20:58,367 S7: Breath. Take a breath. 01:20:59,200 S5: Yeah. And maybe go to, uh, 11 or 12 minutes. 01:21:02,501 S17: It's okay. Oh, okay. 01:21:05,467 S4: That means another slide. 01:21:06,567 S7: So. So I. 01:21:07,367 S17: Had. 01:21:07,501 S10: Interrupted because at town meeting. 01:21:10,200 S7: So so I had a couple very, very minor comments, um, that could be addressed in the slides. The only thing that was on words was early on the heritage landscape come up, comes up. And for the uninitiated, they're not going to know what that is. And you might just say the heritage landscape, which is the area around the original state House on the Hill. Something like that. Just so that they have a clue. 01:21:32,467 S3: What. 01:21:32,601 S17: It is. 01:21:33,000 S10: Yeah. 01:21:33,100 S17: That's helpful. You know, and. 01:21:35,000 S4: That's the origin of the name. 01:21:36,667 S3: Yeah. 01:21:37,300 S17: Yep. Yeah. 01:21:38,000 S7: Yeah. Just very quickly. Right. Um, that would be helpful because that's to the uninitiated, that's just going to be words. 01:21:44,167 S17: Yeah. 01:21:44,467 S5: And you know what? I'm actually that's good to do that. But I can do that in the introduction. 01:21:50,501 S17: Because. 01:21:50,767 S7: That's fine. 01:21:51,200 S17: Too. 01:21:51,667 S5: What I'm thinking is to reference the Hamilton reconnaissance report, because we had that. And I can talk about the heritage. 01:22:00,267 S7: That would be even better. 01:22:01,200 S17: So good. 01:22:01,901 S5: So the only the only. 01:22:03,501 S4: Thing is that picture actually shows. 01:22:05,000 S17: The. Yeah, yeah. 01:22:06,667 S5: The first oh the first slide. So I can talk about that. Yes. So, so the only thing and this is a suggestion. So you after the you talk about the body tables and you say how is it zoned. And you talk about table one, I think I might invert the next slide with table one. And that's identify the subdistricts first and then go to table one. 01:22:34,701 S7: I think that would be clearer too. I felt like I kept wanted to flip ahead to it when he was talking. 01:22:39,667 S17: Yeah. 01:22:40,100 S5: To put the map before the discussion of the tables. 01:22:43,667 S4: Which the order of the table? 01:22:44,868 S17: Yeah. 01:22:45,267 S4: Yeah. 01:22:45,601 S5: And that's the only comment I had. 01:22:47,501 S7: So I had a couple other simple, simple, simple graphic comments. 01:22:51,701 S4: You want. 01:22:52,000 S3: To do. 01:22:52,467 S7: That for the slides. 01:22:53,901 S10: Just these two switching. 01:22:55,300 S13: Yeah. 01:22:55,667 S7: So um, on the slide with the context, wetlands are um, labeled in the big wetland area. But then there's an area that's unlabeled and either an arrow that gets over there or another word. 01:23:13,667 S3: For it. 01:23:14,100 S9: Down. 01:23:14,367 S4: Next to Woodbury. 01:23:15,100 S7: Street. Yeah. Next down. Next slide. 01:23:19,367 S7: So that next to the word Woodbury Street, either an arrow from the original wetlands, um, uh, label or say it again. 01:23:28,868 S9: Yeah, I'd say it again. 01:23:30,100 S3: Yeah. 01:23:31,100 S7: Just had the word again. You could tip it to the side to make it fit. 01:23:34,501 S17: Yeah. 01:23:35,400 S7: Are you doing that in preview or what? Are you doing it in word. Can you Can you twist text? 01:23:41,667 S4: It's going to be a text box, right? 01:23:43,501 S7: But can you twist it? 01:23:45,200 S4: Like 90 degrees and. 01:23:46,267 S7: 45 to make it fit? I'll try. Yeah. If you can't, then an arrow. But just something to label it. 01:23:53,267 S10: Oh, so people know that part's wetlands? 01:23:55,067 S4: I think even if I even even if I cross the lines on each side, I think it's right. 01:23:59,467 S7: I wouldn't do that because a concern that I have if I'm just going to stand up here for a second is one graphic consideration here. Is that like down in here, it's hard to figure out the difference between figure and ground. You're not sure whether this is the area or this is the area. And if you bridge across, it's going to make even more confusion. The way you could fix that is if you put a light wash in these areas. 01:24:21,767 S10: And I was just thinking that or like the little the striping. 01:24:24,868 S7: If you straddle, it's going to even make more confusion of a bigger ground. 01:24:28,100 S10: I think you're right about putting a light something over those areas. 01:24:32,501 S13: But. 01:24:32,767 S7: It's. 01:24:33,000 S13: Less work. 01:24:33,501 S7: Just to label. 01:24:34,100 S17: It. Yeah, just. 01:24:34,868 S7: Trying to keep the less work. 01:24:36,100 S4: But the other the other thing I think I want to do in this one is to indicate that this represents 50% of the entire. 01:24:42,667 S17: Yeah. Oh, that'd be great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:24:44,267 S7: So so anyway, just just watch the figure ground issue. So don't straddle. Don't get outside the red polygon or it'll start to get confusing. Yeah. Um, and then uh oh building types. If you could just give a couple examples of what a building type is. You said you didn't want to get into it, but then for the uninitiated, they don't know what that means. 01:25:11,367 S4: I know I thought. 01:25:12,300 S7: Um, okay, just say, for example. 01:25:14,300 S17: See. 01:25:14,667 S5: Multifamily dwellings, that's the apartments. 01:25:17,300 S7: You could see multifamily townhouses. Just just to just give an example of what that term means. 01:25:23,767 S4: And it it kind of droned on a little bit. So yeah. 01:25:27,567 S17: You. 01:25:27,667 S7: Could it could be just two examples. 01:25:30,567 S5: I think the only place the real examples are needed the multifamily dwellings. That's the apartments, townhouses and the long term care facility is to reference the resident at Riverbend because that gives us size a size. 01:25:47,868 S7: Um, and then on floor area, I actually thought that the description I like pretend that I knew nothing about floor air, and I just listened. And I thought that the comparison of, you know, the the existing, uh, zoning densities was really clear in my head. What's not clear is if I'm actually looking at the slide, I am not sure what's meant by the two buildings. There's nothing to give me context for what you're telling me about those two buildings. Can we go to that slide? The floor area ratio slide. 01:26:20,267 S17: Yep. 01:26:20,601 S4: Well, what I should have said is that the colored portions of those buildings represent the floor area, the top one being a half half story, which I wouldn't get into. This came from YouTube, but the colored area is the gray and the blue represent floor areas. So you would take a sum of all the floor areas divided by what you see within. That's the total lot area and that gives you the far. I don't know whether that um. 01:26:49,267 S7: It's still confusing. Why those particular diagrams. So um, I think what what? Again, I'm erasing everything I know. Uh. 01:27:01,267 S5: Why don't we just take that that out and make the, uh, examples of residential floor areas big? Because I think that that. 01:27:10,901 S7: Yeah, that would be good. Or what you could do is, um, maybe you don't need two of these. Maybe if you just got rid of maybe this one. And the point is that you're trying what you're trying to do is you're saying it's the sum of these. 01:27:25,367 S4: Correct. 01:27:25,968 S7: And and it could be. 01:27:27,868 S4: It's the aggregate. 01:27:28,501 S7: Of, for example, um, in this diagram, it's the sum of those Shaded. 01:27:33,567 S13: Floors. 01:27:35,367 S7: Divided by the floor area. But to have two buildings, it's like. Like. What's the difference between these buildings? 01:27:40,267 S4: Well, this was because a place like, say, the upper campus or even a lower campus, middle campus. You're going to have more than one buildings if it's not allotted, where every building sits on the lot. 01:27:49,300 S7: I understand that, but, but but you can't get to that concept. And so when people are looking at this diagram like I'm looking at and thinking, okay, how come this two buildings, how come there aren't three? Which floor area is it referring to? But all it's doing is the sentence that it's telling us I think is is you have a lot area and you have a building and it has a stack of floors, and it's the sum of the stack of floors. What about if, you know, as a ratio to the floor area. 01:28:18,701 S4: The diagram on the top right where it said you're going to see because there's red light lines, two colors for floor areas. And you can see where they relate to the buildings. 01:28:27,467 S13: Yep. 01:28:28,167 S4: Uh, and this is really this whole slide is about two things. Lot lines and floor area. That's all it's about. 01:28:34,067 S7: Yeah, and the floor areas are stacked. 01:28:35,767 S5: Can I make a suggestion. Skip all that. 01:28:39,267 S17: Because you could. 01:28:40,100 S5: And what I would do is, is then take the floor areas for the sub districts.335.527 01:28:49,667 S5: the range of 0.52. And compare that, you know, just have another column. 01:28:56,667 S17: With the. 01:28:57,267 S5: Far. 01:28:58,100 S7: Going. 01:28:58,367 S17: Yep. 01:28:58,667 S5: For for what we're allowing so that they can immediately see our air compared to what they can. Absolutely. 01:29:07,868 S7: How it's arrived at is not critical here. It's really just what's the answer? 01:29:12,767 S17: What's the answer? 01:29:13,367 S7: That's the bottom line. 01:29:14,667 S17: So do you see what I'm saying. 01:29:16,300 S5: Just take the take that that last column from table five and compare it to the examples. 01:29:23,968 S7: Do you agree with that IMO. 01:29:25,367 S4: Yeah. You mean put it on the. 01:29:26,901 S7: Put it on the slide. Get rid of the diagram. 01:29:28,767 S4: I'm saying getting rid of the diagram. 01:29:30,667 S17: Yeah. 01:29:31,100 S5: Get rid of the diagram. 01:29:32,367 S17: Mhm. 01:29:33,267 S7: No I again I pretend I know that you know what it is, I know what it is. 01:29:38,300 S4: But when you, when you ask somebody. You know, somebody asked the question to me today what's GSF. 01:29:44,901 S7: Yeah. 01:29:45,300 S4: That is a square footage I said yes. Gross square footage. What's the word. Gross. And but the idea that floor area I think confuses people, you know. Well, is it, uh. 01:29:59,100 S7: One story or all the stories? 01:30:00,467 S4: One story, is it? Well. 01:30:02,067 S7: You could say that sentence. 01:30:03,367 S4: That this one is valuable. 01:30:04,667 S7: Yes. 01:30:05,667 S4: I, I, I think the most valuable thing on this other than describe me since we use FSR in table five. What's valuable to me is the relationship between what people would and probably know the residential fairs. 01:30:19,501 S17: Well, that's. 01:30:20,100 S5: Why I was suggesting putting a direct comparison to what we're allowing to the examples. Because the diagram. 01:30:31,167 S7: It's non-specific and its sentence is it's a stack of flaws. It's not just the first floor, it's a stack of floors. That's the sentence that you're after. Yeah. And but that sentence isn't visible in the graphic without saying the sentence. 01:30:46,501 S17: Right? 01:30:46,968 S7: Yeah, that's the issue. 01:30:48,100 S4: Say it that way. 01:30:48,767 S7: You could say it so. 01:30:50,567 S4: But then you're going smaller. 01:30:52,267 S7: Yeah. Make them make that diagram smaller and do Marnie's comparison bigger. 01:30:56,300 S4: In order to. 01:30:57,100 S17: Put. 01:30:57,267 S4: In more. 01:30:57,567 S17: Yes, yes. 01:30:58,567 S4: So you're talking about the far for. 01:31:00,567 S17: Yeah. 01:31:00,868 S4: Just take campus. 01:31:01,968 S5: No. Just take this column. 01:31:03,901 S17: Yeah. 01:31:04,767 S5: And reproduce it and reproduce it next to this. 01:31:08,100 S4: Yeah. Okay. 01:31:09,467 S5: And then they'll immediately see. 01:31:12,100 S17: All right. 01:31:12,467 S5: And that's what you were saying. You know, you were going back and forth between the slides saying so the middle campus would have. But then, then you could then just say that because people could see it directly. And this could be tiny up here because, um, you know. 01:31:31,167 S17: This floor area. 01:31:32,901 S5: Ratio involves math. And, you know, it's just it's it's not. 01:31:40,100 S7: You could almost just say it's the stack of floors, not just the first floor. 01:31:43,767 S17: Right. 01:31:44,167 S4: Correct. 01:31:44,901 S7: You know. 01:31:45,267 S4: I think that's the concept that they don't. That's why I thought this was valuable. 01:31:48,767 S7: Yes, but you got but you got to say something about it because the graphic alone doesn't tell the story. 01:31:53,100 S5: Right. And I but I actually think that getting to art people aren't going to remember. 01:31:57,701 S17: No, I know. 01:31:58,167 S5: That there anyway. 01:31:59,067 S17: You know. 01:31:59,567 S7: That's why that diagram could be small and off to the side. Some people will get it, some people won't. The big deal is. 01:32:06,100 S17: Here's. 01:32:06,567 S7: How it compares to what you know, what you live in. 01:32:09,767 S17: Right. 01:32:10,267 S4: Exactly right. I agree with all of that. And the thing I was trying to do, why this is so kind of technical, I wanted to just let people know there was a lot of thought behind this. 01:32:19,968 S17: Oh, yeah. This was like, oh, maybe. 01:32:21,367 S5: That's my introduction. 01:32:22,767 S17: What? 01:32:23,667 S7: What is Years of thought behind it. 01:32:26,167 S17: Somebody just. 01:32:27,968 S4: Say, oh. 01:32:28,367 S17: Let's do this. 01:32:29,667 S10: And a lot of people came to the table and a lot of people have. There's been a lot of give and take, I think is very important because there's been a lot of figuring out. Yeah. You know, since we started this two years ago, we. Yeah. 01:32:45,968 S7: So I think that while the reaction to this was deer in the headlights. According to you, from the first go round, I think you could very quickly take this to a very compelling slide. And it's almost there. 01:32:58,567 S4: Okay. Well, working out. 01:33:00,567 S17: Perfect. 01:33:01,167 S4: Work on it. Yeah. 01:33:03,667 S9: Give more. 01:33:04,767 S7: Um, I don't think so. 01:33:08,067 S9: I had a few, uh, a few comments. Um, so if you look at, uh, slide, I think it's six. You see how the entire outline is, is in yellow. I think we should try to keep that consistent through the next seven, eight and nine as well, because if you go to seven, you see the round circles, but you kind of lose the I mean, it's very, very faint, the yellow line around it. I would keep the consistency of the border in six throughout seven, eight and nine. Because even if you go to eight, I mean, you see, you know, click on eight mark, you know. 01:33:43,100 S4: You don't want it there I think. 01:33:44,501 S9: Well you want you want to show the relationship to the entire. Yeah. Right. 01:33:48,467 S17: Yeah. All right. 01:33:49,868 S9: Um, so that was one comment. Just keeping that existing board throughout all of them. 01:33:53,501 S4: I'm gonna have to do these all over again. Oh, no. I can't draw the yellow line on all of them. I could you if if I started off with the yellow line then repeat it just. 01:34:02,000 S9: Oh. 01:34:02,367 S4: Duplicate. So that means I have to transfer the information from one. 01:34:05,501 S17: Could you, could you. 01:34:06,501 S7: Darken the existing yellow line. 01:34:08,667 S10: The dotted line. 01:34:09,801 S9: Oh yeah. 01:34:10,367 S13: Just bigger to do it I have the. 01:34:12,000 S7: Line. 01:34:12,267 S15: Type of that. 01:34:12,968 S4: Everything has to be drawn there. Every single. 01:34:15,000 S17: Oh no. 01:34:15,567 S9: Oh no. Never mind. I didn't realize it was that. 01:34:18,000 S17: No, it's not that I think it's. 01:34:19,467 S5: No, it's okay. 01:34:20,601 S7: I think people will get it. 01:34:21,701 S19: Yeah. That's fine. 01:34:22,601 S10: That's just. If it was easy. 01:34:24,167 S4: With you, I would do. 01:34:24,801 S9: It. I didn't realize it was. I don't worry about it anymore. 01:34:28,000 S7: And he's only got thousands of hours in it so far. 01:34:30,167 S17: So. 01:34:32,767 S5: That's another couple hundred hours. 01:34:34,367 S9: And then my next question is if you go to the the table slides, are the tables being handed out at the meeting. Because these are very busy and hard to read. So is it possible? 01:34:45,801 S4: Yeah. 01:34:46,367 S9: Is it is it possible to have the print out of the tables. 01:34:49,667 S4: There in the warrant. 01:34:50,567 S17: There? 01:34:50,767 S10: I think they're in the warrant. 01:34:52,267 S17: Okay. 01:34:53,000 S5: Oh, you might mention that the tables are in the warrant something. 01:34:55,667 S9: Yeah, exactly. Because you refer to it while you're speaking there. Let them know it's in the warrant that probably hopefully they have with them. Right. Okay, great. Um, and then, uh, the table that has the, um. Can you go down a little, please? The 400 max circled in red. 01:35:14,868 S17: Oh, that's table five. 01:35:15,901 S4: Table five? 01:35:16,567 S9: Yeah. I think that is super important to stress if you stress it in more than one way. You know, we talked about one one. During one meeting, like the idea that it's 400 max, if you take off over here, you have to give up over here. And I don't know if we can stress that more than one way, because I think it's important people are worried about overdevelopment. Right. So that's important to, to bring up, I think. Okay. Um, I think that's all I had. Yep. Thank you. 01:35:43,000 S4: Thank you. I don't know if Darcy has anyone or. 01:35:46,901 S5: Darcy, are you there? 01:35:50,100 S10: Yes, I am, I'm eating an apple. 01:35:52,567 S17: How's that? 01:35:53,167 S5: How's the baby watch going? 01:35:55,701 S8: Well, we're waiting to see what happens. 01:35:58,801 S5: I was in labor. 01:35:59,901 S17: Oh, wow. 01:36:02,667 S5: Oh, I hope that wasn't oversharing. 01:36:04,601 S17: I hope not too late. 01:36:07,167 S20: That's fine. 01:36:11,367 S4: All right. I can make these changes. So. 01:36:13,901 S7: Mark, did you have any comments? 01:36:17,167 S14: Uh, I thought it was good. I think. Um, Marnie, maybe if you can never hurt to sort of step back and say, like, why are we doing this? Really emphasize that even if you repeat it occasionally because I think that, um, less than that, the tables and all the details is kind of like, why? Why did this whole effort start? Um, so maybe that's something. Marnie, you saying that? 01:36:43,367 S17: Yeah. 01:36:43,667 S5: I mean, it really goes back to 2018. And a task force was created in 2018, and David Smith was chair of that task force. And and so the town and the seminary were talking, uh, for a long time. And then in 2022, that's when things started to kind of heat up because, um, well, it was post-Covid. So the seminary's, uh, educational model was challenged by the closure of so many. Well, I think the camp is closed, isn't it? Or. But it was impacted severely. And that was when the master plan steering committee approached the seminary. And then the seminary approached the planning board. And there were the conversations started and we began to work on this. And then there was a working group, and that's when Rick Mitchell, um, began interacting, I think, with commands. But at that led to the engagement of Abramson and Associates and, and Gamble and Associates, and that was the strategy in about that time. That's when the planning board really began work. And we worked up through a part of 2022 and almost all of 2023 on this. 01:38:12,667 S7: That's a great timeline. However, I think the meat of the matter actually in FAQ number three, why shouldn't the campus just revert to the underlying zoning is more germane. Why are we doing this? Because that doesn't make sense. That third question. 01:38:34,400 S7: So you might, instead of focusing so much on timeline that this happened, then this happened, then this happened. If we do nothing, here's what could happen. 01:38:44,567 S10: Right? That's kind of. 01:38:45,701 S17: That's why we're here. 01:38:46,567 S10: Three points you brought up. I think there were three things you said today was it could be sold to another nonprofit, and we're in the same place with no tax revenue. Yes, it could. 01:38:59,567 S7: Be 49 single family houses that that denuded the hillside and welcome Bridge Street times 50. 01:39:06,868 S10: And you're still going to end up with kids in school system. That's a net negative. And, um, buy campus And then 40. A possible like 40. 01:39:16,667 S17: Be well, you know, we. 01:39:18,767 S5: Say 49 single family houses, but if it's in the pod, we have to cut that in half. 01:39:23,367 S17: You know. 01:39:23,901 S7: Well, don't use the number 49 lots cover with single family houses. Right. And if you didn't, you didn't like Bridge Street. You won't like that. It's full of steep slopes. So I think you could focus on the the route of it is in the third FAQ. It's all right in there in that paragraph. 01:39:44,801 S5: I can probably do both in about 3 or 4 minutes. 01:39:47,367 S17: Yeah, I want. 01:39:47,968 S7: A timeline more. Why? 01:39:49,801 S17: Yeah, I. 01:39:50,501 S5: Want to thank the people who have been engaged. 01:39:52,501 S17: In that. 01:39:52,701 S7: Oh, absolutely. 01:39:53,400 S17: Yeah. 01:39:53,601 S5: I mean, it really even the Butters I mean, is, is. 01:39:57,901 S10: Uh, we've come out with a better solution. Yeah, because of all the impacts. 01:40:01,767 S5: Think hard about it. Whether we've actually satisfied our needs or not is another question, but they've made us think about how to. 01:40:08,567 S10: Absolutely. 01:40:09,567 S5: Protect them as much as possible while simultaneously addressing other. 01:40:14,267 S7: But your closing argument is. You know the. Why not just leave it as it is? Because it's a real bad idea. 01:40:23,267 S14: And this slide, I think in particular kind of ties it together. So, you know, I would say, don't be afraid to spend a little extra time on this slide just making sure those points land with the audience. 01:40:35,968 S7: But yeah that was really great. That's like missing the forest for the trees not to do that. 01:40:43,968 S7: Any other comments? 01:40:47,067 S17: All right. 01:40:47,567 S14: I don't think so. I think it would be helpful to to do it with the Selectboard chair. And Marnie, your introduction, just to sort of see how that looks with everyone speaking together. Um, so I'll definitely try to organize. Yeah, at least a zoom or something so we can do that more. 01:41:05,367 S5: And since you're the only one in the audience, did you want to do you have any comments. 01:41:10,367 S10: We miss hearing from you. So. 01:41:12,100 S5: And and I don't know if the seminary is going to be given an actual role, but there's nothing. 01:41:19,267 S17: To. 01:41:19,667 S5: Prevent you as a town resident from speaking on behalf of the seminary. 01:41:25,767 S15: Yeah, well thanks again. This is remarkable. I think it's really puts it out very clearly. I will be available. I'll be sitting down front if you think it appropriate for us to say for me to say something at the front end, just in saying that we're in agreement with this. We're happy to do that. Happy to answer any of the questions. The tax thing, I think, is really important because my understanding is that Finicum had their discussion before the assessor came up with her number, and. 01:41:53,100 S17: She. 01:41:53,400 S10: Just gave it to me yesterday. She just she didn't have it until. 01:41:56,167 S17: Yesterday. 01:41:56,767 S15: Yesterday to communicate with you yesterday. So I don't think they have that. But that's a. 01:42:00,567 S10: Key I'm going to I'm following up with him. 01:42:02,367 S17: Okay. 01:42:03,167 S15: Yeah I do agree the the chronology isn't necessarily super important. One thing. It was the seminary that was approached by the planning, the master planning steering committee, back before it was looking to, you know, before that issue of perhaps selling the campus. So it was that came to us. We said, sure. And then that began the conversation. And yes, then the seminary is starting to look at those alternatives, which I think then prompted everybody to say, could it actually happen? So. But at this point, as we all know, with this particular overlay district, the seminary is going to stay. And that that may be something to say. Understandably, of course, it could move in the future sometime, but the point of this is to allow the seminary to stay for many, many more years. And so there's really the intent is no change. Right. The apartments are. 01:42:55,801 S17: There. 01:42:56,367 S5: So so we'll have to, you know, ask the select board whether after Bill Olson makes his comments, whether 01:43:08,167 S5: He would want you to say, yes, we're in support of this. And that's why we executed this development agreement. You know, he's going to say what the development contains. And so I think it has to be clear that if if the town doesn't vote for the overlay district, they lose all the benefits of the development agreement, that the development agreement is contingent, and all the money is contingent on the passage of the Brownsville Overlay District. 01:43:37,467 S17: Yeah. 01:43:38,067 S15: Yeah. And people have called it a threat. I've tried. Every time anybody says it's a threat, it's not a threat. The reality is the seminary will need to do something. And the current zoning doesn't allow for much creativity. It's 40. Bobby Orr putting up all those those single family residences which the seminary does not want. It will not solve its problem. It's not what we want, but that is the reality. It will not stay the same that it is right now. So in the answer, what happens if we don't do this? It's not stasis. It's not just going to be what's there. The cemetery just will not be able to do that. So that's, I think, a nuance that may be helpful for you. 01:44:15,801 S10: Well, one of the things that came up today was, um, somebody said because Doctor Sundquist had shared and then, um, they're like, well, he said that, you know, we want to keep the campus the same. And then but the pushback is, yes, we do. But like, sometimes you don't get what you want. So now if we have to go to plan B, it may be different. This is what we'd like. And we see that we can keep what we want and all these things. But because they were like, well, you know, why would they do a 40 B? And it's like, because there's a reality that something has to happen, right? So I think maybe that's helpful too, is for them to know that at this point, something is going to happen and, um, needs to happen. Um, another thing that came up was somebody mentioned about this. Well, they felt like we're rushing, huh? I think we did like. Right. Am I right? Somebody said. 01:45:16,267 S17: That. 01:45:16,767 S5: She got that on, man. 01:45:18,100 S10: And, um, they also said, um. Oh, what was the other thing about? I don't know. It'll come back to me. But anyway. 01:45:29,267 S5: It seems kind of slow, doesn't. 01:45:30,767 S17: It? 01:45:31,367 S15: So we've been at this. 01:45:32,200 S17: For for years. 01:45:33,367 S10: We've been. I was like, what? Oh, no. The other thing was that the zone that, um, if we don't pass it about the two year, um. 01:45:42,467 S5: Oh, well, that's just true. That's just a. 01:45:44,167 S10: Statement. Yeah, that was just a statement. So we don't we could bring it back before two years. Um, because we had voted. 01:45:52,400 S5: We voted to. 01:45:53,367 S17: Approve. 01:45:54,000 S10: So anyways, so there isn't a two year thing because somebody was brought that up. 01:45:58,567 S15: But but just let us know if there's anything you need from us. I'll plan on being down there. And if the select board are. You think that I should step up to say anything? 01:46:07,167 S5: We'll be in communication. 01:46:09,367 S17: Yeah. 01:46:10,200 S15: But thank you very much. This is. It's looking really, really, really good. 01:46:16,100 S10: Thank you. 01:46:17,167 S5: Get out the. 01:46:17,601 S17: Vote. 01:46:18,601 S10: Yeah, that's their job. 01:46:21,200 S17: Get out the. 01:46:21,667 S10: Vote. They're working on it. 01:46:24,767 S5: Okay. Any, uh, any further comments or discussion about our materials? 01:46:30,267 S7: I thought Amy's presentation was really clear. Again, I looked at it with through fresh eyes, and I thought it was really clear and compelling. 01:46:37,167 S5: So I really commend him for. 01:46:39,467 S17: For. 01:46:39,767 S5: The work that he did on that. 01:46:45,000 S17: Thank you. 01:46:45,667 S8: I would like to thank you also. Um, and it's it sounds like a wonderful presentation overall. I really like it. 01:46:56,767 S5: Okay. Thank you. Darcy. Um. Anything else? 01:47:02,868 S5: Thank you everyone for your comments and constructive criticism. Um, so, um, if there's nothing else, um. 01:47:19,667 S10: Would you like a motion to adjourn ten minutes before nine? Yeah, actually, 13 minutes before nine. 01:47:25,400 S5: That's good for us. Do I have a second? 01:47:28,000 S7: Second? 01:47:29,200 S5: Okay. Uh, Jonathan. 01:47:30,868 S7: Poor Jonathan, poor. 01:47:32,300 S17: I am. 01:47:34,167 S4: Emil Dahlquist. 01:47:35,567 S5: Darcy. Dale. 01:47:37,267 S8: Darcy. Dale, I Beth her. 01:47:39,467 S5: I am Marnie Crouch. I now I want to see everybody at the special town meeting. Because if you don't come to the special town meeting, we're not having another meeting before. 01:47:52,000 S10: Oh 2026 do we decide to cancel? Yes we did. Oh, good. I wasn't at that meeting, so. oh, perfect. 01:47:59,767 S5: To cancel. 01:48:00,267 S17: That. 01:48:00,400 S10: I didn't even have to bring it up. You guys decided that without me. Whew. 01:48:03,868 S5: Well, you know, there was no argument. 01:48:06,100 S17: Yeah. 01:48:07,400 S7: Except for Pat Norton. 01:48:08,901 S10: Yeah. I'm sure Pat was really upset about that. 01:48:11,300 S5: It was really upset. 01:48:12,467 S17: Yeah. 01:48:12,701 S10: Likes extra meetings.