00:00:00,667	S1:
Good evening everybody. Today is Monday, November 24th, 2025. I'd like to quarter call to order the one m Historic District Commission member committees. Can you please state your name for the record?

00:00:17,000	S2:
Bonnie Anderson, present.

00:00:19,901	S3:
Michael Reid. Present.

00:00:21,868	S4:
Kirsten Alexander. Present.

00:00:25,467	S5:
Lisa. Present.

00:00:30,000	S1:
And Kelly Hoff present.

00:00:34,200	S1:
So there's a couple things on the agenda this evening that we're going to be covering. And, Joe, can you please pull up the agenda?

00:00:41,100	S6:
Sure.

00:01:15,167	S7:
One second. Sorry.

00:01:20,767	S7:
Okay. Can everyone see that? Okay.

00:01:23,767	S1:
Yeah. We can.

00:01:36,567	S7:
Kelly, did you want to do public comment first?

00:01:39,667	S1:
Um, sure. So the first item of agenda is to review the petition by the town of Wenham. Um, to. The proposal was to install solar canopy behind the town hall or the upper parking lot. And we have the commission is just for everybody that's on the call. So, you know, we did a site walk the other week to look at it. And, um, Joe, for the people that have not been on before, can you pull up the renderings, please?

00:02:20,667	S7:
These are the scopes.

00:02:22,567	S8:
Hey, Joe, what I would do is if you do you have that PowerPoint I just sent over. Do you want me to share my screen?

00:02:31,367	S7:
Um, let me take a look. Bill. This one here.

00:02:36,100	S8:
Uh, I don't see it yet.

00:02:38,767	S7:
All right, let me one slide.

00:02:40,067	S8:
PowerPoint.

00:02:51,901	S7:
There.

00:02:52,667	S8:
Yes.

00:03:02,000	S7:
Again if you can just if you're in the audience, please meet your mic. Yep. Um. Kelly, is it okay? Uh, Bill, did you want to say something? You're waiting for public comment or.

00:03:12,200	S8:
Uh, Kelly asked for the ring being. So. That's why I wanted to make sure.

00:03:16,267	S1:
So, Bill, why don't you just give a quick overview of what the proposal is for the people that are new to the.

00:03:21,601	S8:
Sure. Thank you. Kelly and committee. So, uh, the town hall, uh, would like to be net zero, uh, in support of the state's goals and the town's goals, uh, to address climate change, they're currently finishing up, uh, energy systems groups, finishing up a conversion of their heating system to geothermal, uh, heating system. So the building will be all electric. And the final piece would be to have some onsite behind the meter generation that would, uh, basically make their own power through solar that's making themselves net zero. Um, originally we looked at the lower lot, uh, for a place based on, um, just trying to optimize the the cost and the look of the canopy, uh, per the commission's request. We also looked at putting it up in the back lot. Uh, so, um, we do, we can do either option. Um, and, uh, they've also asked us to look at more of a farmer market. Look where the, uh, the steel is, is wrapped in wood. Um, so that has a wood farmer markets look. Uh, so so we're presenting these options as a way to get the project over the goal line. Um, so on the right is the lower lot renderings. Um, and then, uh, the upper lot as well. Um.

00:04:44,167	S8:
It would look similar more towards the lower lot in terms of the rendering. It's just trying to figure out how to get that rendering appropriate in the back, but they sit on the paved area in the back, behind the shed or the building that holds the, I think, antique, uh, piece of equipment. Um, it wouldn't require really any major tree trimming. There's a couple trees, one in the back, one off to the right. We're not going to clear cut anybody's line of sight or or such. It's a little bigger than the lower lot just because it's it's got more shading to accommodate, you know, so we have to be a little bigger to, uh, to get all the power that the town hall needs to make them net zero. Um.

00:05:31,501	S8:
Any questions?

00:05:33,367	S1:
So why don't we open it now to public comment, please?

00:05:35,968	S7:
Sure. Now, if folks have a public comment that they want to say, just please raise your hand, it'd be a little easier to follow. So just raise your hand in the audience, please. If you'd like to make a public statement.

00:05:47,868	S7:
Please also give your name and address as well.

00:05:54,267	S7:
Again, any public comment? Please raise your hand.

00:05:56,467	S9:
I am trying I don't remember how to do this on the.

00:06:00,300	S7:
That's okay.

00:06:01,100	S9:
I'm raising an actor.

00:06:03,000	S7:
That's okay. Go ahead.

00:06:05,100	S1:
So we can see everybody. The.

00:06:08,067	S9:
Uh.

00:06:08,467	S7:
So yeah.

00:06:10,267	S9:
Hi, I'm Nicole Castagna, I'm a member of the Climate Action and Sustainability Committee, and I am just here in that role to read a letter from the committee, um, in support of the canopy. So, um, two members of the Wenham Historic District Commission as the Wenham Climate Action and Sustainability Committee, we respectfully submit this letter in strong support of the town's application to install a solar canopy behind town hall. Casc understands and appreciates the commission's commission's charge to safeguard the historic integrity and character of the town's most significant civic buildings and landscapes. Our comments focus on how the proposed design advances Wyndham's climate and sustainability goals. From a climate standpoint, the benefits are significant. The solar installation would fully offset the carbon footprint of Town Hall, bringing this important municipal facility to true operational carbon neutrality. It also complements the town's recent investment in a geothermal heat pump system, positioning Town Hall as one of one of the first municipal buildings heated and powered entirely by clean energy. Together, these efforts demonstrate that preservation and sustainability can coexist and that historic buildings can serve as models of responsible, forward looking stewardship. Additionally, this initiative directly supports the when a master plan 2024 2034, which calls for accelerating municipal decarbonization, core theme to excellent municipal infrastructure and services, recommends installing solar on municipal properties and leveraging state and federal incentives to meet town climate goals. The master plan specifically identifies solar canopies in municipal parking lots as a priority strategy for meeting these objectives. Reference master plan. Core theme two. Goal five strategy to you. We also note that timing is critical. Federal incentives that would cover approximately 30% of project costs are available only until January 5th. Securing these funds requires timely approval so that the town can make a fiscally responsible investment that maximizes outside funding. Casc recognizes that the Historic District Commission must balance historic preservation, site compatibility, community character, and long term stewardship. Our committee's role is to evaluate municipal projects through the lens of climate impact, and from that perspective, we speak unequivocally in support of erecting a solar canopy behind the Wenham town hall. In 100 years from now, we think the Wenham Historic District Commission will look back to this moment and take pride that our community took action against the threats of climate change. Sincerely, Wenham action Wenham Climate Action and Sustainability committee.

00:09:04,000	S10:
Thank you. Nicole.

00:09:05,968	S1:
Uh, David, please state your full name for the record, please.

00:09:11,000	S11:
Hi. Dave Anderson. Uh, 176 Main Street. Uh, I am a big proponent of solar. I was part of the master planning advisory committee. Um, I think, don't quote me on this, that our house on 176 was certainly, I think, was the first house to have solar on Main Street, much to some chagrin, on the former members of this committee. Um, but we did it. So I'm certainly a proponent of solar, and I'm very proud of that. We're working on the Planning Commission to consider how we can increase solar within, uh, subdivision rules and regs as we go forward. So I support this project in principle. That said, I have some concerns with the project itself. I don't know if you all are the body for which this is most appropriately addressed. I raised this a little bit with Steve before. My concern is that the project design is, um, built around components that are frankly, obsolete. Um, the inverter is not the current model by the manufacturer. It was replaced by another inverter in 2023. Um, the modules, the panel, so-called panels were produced, released to the market in 2019. Um, they are also and haven't been for many years In commercial production. They're also undersized at 400W. Compared to. That's at the low side for my understanding of what a residential installation would get. Certainly, commercial products are higher than that that are deployed these days. What I'm concerned about is that in the mad dash to try and capture these 30% tax credits, we do not want a project. Uh uh, but select a project of this volume in a rush. It doesn't make sense to me to rush this, because I feel like it's a little bit like Black Friday, where throughout the industry, as a general theme, where everything's up 30% to capture the 30% and everything's rush, rush to get it done. Um, I have some reservations about that. And I talked to Steve and there's I asked these specific questions. And the answer was, well, if it gets approved, we'll actually, you know, put in the products that will be used in the solar system at a later date. Uh, and I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. You're selling me a car. Now you need to tell me what car I'm buying. The whole ROI of a solar project is based around the size of the system, the inverters. It doesn't make any sense to model out a system unless we know the equipment that we would be buying. And if it's been represented to us that we're getting, you know, 2019, 2023 products that are no longer in production, uh, and the entire project and planning is based upon that. That gives me major, major concerns about this project. Let me just go back to where I started, very much in support of this project in in concept and principle. But I would just strongly urge everybody to consider, let's not rush into this just to capture maybe some savings, maybe some not savings. Thanks everybody.

00:12:44,901	S1:
Thank you. David, is there anybody else from the public?

00:12:49,267	S12:
Excuse me Joe I don't I can't it's James Purdy.

00:12:52,601	S7:
Yeah that's okay Jim, go ahead.

00:12:53,968	S12:
I don't have a little yellow hand on my tablet.

00:12:56,801	S7:
That's okay. No problem.

00:12:57,701	S12:
Um, uh, I've had the opportunity to, uh, review or watch the September and October meetings and, um, you know, it's been a very it's been a very thoughtful discussion, uh, on both sides from your from the consultants and from the historic district. And I think the historic district has been working very hard to try to come up with a solution. And, and it's and it's a difficult process. Um, that's the first thing. The second thing I just want to say is I'm a trustee at the church, and, uh, you folks were very thoughtful. And how you consider the, uh, the solar panels put on the church, and the church is already recognizing some savings from that, just in a very short period of time. The third thing I'd like to say is, I was pleased to see that the option of the upper upper parking lot is is still an option. As I distilled the, uh, the, the discussions you had, um, the upper parking lot seemed and I may be incorrect in this, but seemed to be not a priority discussion. It kind of went on well, understandably. Design and all those issues, it would seem that to me, if possible, that the upper parking lot would be a good option. Uh, it would take it out of the sightline Line. If you had it redesigned a little bit, it wouldn't be as close to the town hall and the and the, uh, and the museum. So, um, those are those are the remarks I want to say, and I and I, I would look forward to this project moving forward as well. Uh, and I, uh, I hope that we can that we, the town, the community, uh, can find a mutual resolution that works for everybody. Thank you very much.

00:15:03,167	S7:
Thank you. Jim.

00:15:06,367	S7:
Any other commenters, please?

00:15:15,200	S1:
Jackie, please go ahead and state your full name.

00:15:21,567	S2:
Jackie, it looks like you're on mute.

00:15:24,467	S4:
I'm working on it. Hello. Um, thank you for the meeting and the comments. We got the notice as a Butters Jackie Hodge, 808 Old Country Road. Um, uh, grateful for your role in oversight. Um, and also as trustees for the historic past and our current time in our future. Um, very likely people have worked very hard on this to envision the concept, the design, and propose the project with positive intentions. Um, motivated by a conviction of its value. And we certainly understand that. But aside from these issues, um, I think the compelling idea in my mind is the appropriateness of the location for the, um, what benefit, we could ask why? What value? Why here. Uh, the technical spec, obviously. Um, but I we could talk about history. We could talk about our role in the past, preserving the present and preserving the future for others. Uh, we know about the small town village character in the architecture. So this is known to all of us. Um, I am opposed to this location. The concept is, uh, is obviously has merit. Uh, but what are we getting for what? What we're going to be giving up, and especially in terms of, hey, it's a rush. We've got to do it. Um, some specific things, and I'm sorry, I could have spent more time being organized, but, um, the visual rendering, um, obviously doesn't blend with the architectural surroundings and and the style. Um. The proposed structure is visible from one A, regardless of the sightline from multiple angles. And there's there's no rendering from the street. It's absent. Uh, it will be for any of us who've looked at it and walked the site. It will be constantly in view and somewhat dominant. Um, another point. The sun exposure data, the limited generation capacity, very limited capacity and value of what what we're we're going to be getting for what we're giving up. Um, if you do the analysis, the answer is.

00:18:08,200	S4:
Might surprise you. Um, as you know, in Danvers, there's a much larger structure. Um, the Danvers Port Event Center on Route 62. If you go into that driveway and on the left, there's a very large canopy that that I'm sure many of us have. Have viewed and the tremendous number of solar panels, but it's sited correctly? Um, it's something of note if people haven't seen that, um, I'm wondering, um.

00:18:43,067	S4:
Why it has to be here? There are other appropriate places in the town where something could be even bigger, perhaps. Or solar panels perhaps could have been considered on the roof of the building. Um, but it's visually incongruent. And, um, people go up and down this historic road, as, you know, one a is it an historic road in history? We have our community members in our town and in Hamilton. We have the surrounding towns. And the point of this commission is to be thinking about those things. Right? The surrounding towns on Essex County. We are stewards of history. Um, there's also a historic road and tourists who come by. And I just think it will be a shame if we, um, take a view that this is so compelling that wade in the balance, it's necessary to do, um, on behalf of the goals that have been stated. And so we're here we are. It's November 24th. It's the week of Thanksgiving. It's a zoom only meeting. And I'm not even sure how many people know about this. I live at the Maples and we received an a mother's notice, but, um, the timing perhaps could have been a little better. Um, I'm not criticizing anyone, so I am against the location of this project. Um, it's the location. Is the issue. Wrong site and the Commission has a responsibility to be stewards of their role. And I hope you will consider, um, not as a criticism to those who are proposing this or who feel passionately about it. It's the location that will forever change the character and the look. Of course, these structures are subject to the law of entropy, so it's not going to last forever. And the way that the renderings are not appealing, even in terms of the rustic look. So I would urge you to please vote no tonight. Let's take it back to the drawing board and let's get a, um, perhaps a more appropriate location. Um, you know, even in terms of the sun exposure, um, maybe it's the right project, but wrong location. Thank you.

00:21:15,567	S7:
Thank you, Phil Russo. Go ahead.

00:21:19,901	S10:
Hi, Phil. Color is a 406 Old Country Road. Also, the maples also chair the Conservation commission in Wenham. I'm also a member of the master planning committee with Dave Anderson and others. Um, I to me, this project is a no brainer. Um, it needs to be done, um, for environmental reasons, but also to demonstrate that the town is taking its responsibilities, uh, seriously. Uh, we have a climate action committee, uh, plan. We have, uh, disaster planning, um, you know, plans going forward because we all know, um, the weather is becoming more unpredictable. Uh, we have a responsibility to our children, our grandchildren, um, to take on this task. The town needs to be a leader on it. Um, I take, Dave Anderson's comment seriously. So, um, I'm not as up to speed on the technology as Dave might be, so, um, I do take that into consideration. Um, but I think absolutely, this project needs to go ahead at some point. Um, and the town needs to be seen as a leader, um, you know, in this realm going forward. Thank you.

00:22:49,067	S7:
Any other residents wish to speak? Raise your hand.

00:22:59,067	S7:
Not seeing anyone. Kelly, do you want to give Bill a chance just to respond to Mr. Anderson's, um, comments about the equipment?

00:23:06,167	S3:
I think I think there's another. Oh, sorry.

00:23:10,801	S13:
Yeah, I'd like to speak, but I'm. I would actually like to hear that response.

00:23:17,567	S8:
To your, uh. So, Dave, uh, sorry we didn't get a chance to speak directly on this. I tried to relay a message through Steve. Um, sounds like maybe you didn't. Uh, the answer was not favorable to you, but it is this. We've been working with the historic district. Now, this is the fourth time, so that should also address the timing. Someone's concern that we're slamming this down people's throats. But this is the fourth time we've been in front of the commission on behalf of the town. And so, um, we we we wanted to clear this hurdle first before we went into final design of this product and took all the design input. So absolutely, we'll not be using we're not trying to sell outdated equipment here. And that's not the case that that that's going to happen that, that that um, scope was done a little while back. Um, and so we will have the latest inverters and panels that would support the project. Um, and it is, uh, you know, it is a good time to grab the federal incentive, uh, while you can still get up to 30% of this project paid for in support of the project. Um, so, you know, it's been something we've been talking to the town for a while now, and it was part of their green communities application that they got $500,000 to be able to do the geothermal. Um, there was best efforts going to be made for that during the building. And as to other locations, it really needs to be true net zero. It needs to be behind the meter. Otherwise, it's just a net metered project with some financial credits that that that go to accounts. Um, so you kind of lose that whole benefit of it being on the town Hall property. Uh, we looked at the roofs. We went through this on several of the other meetings with this commission. You know, we looked at the roofs is too small. Uh, the roof actually needs to be replaced at Town Hall at some point in the near future. Um, related sites nearby. Nothing was really compatible. And that's why we chose to look at the backlot, um, at the request of the commission as well. And we feel from the butter standpoint, there's there's not a lot of view. I mean, there's still going to be a lot of trees back there that are going to kind of block this thing. Um, you know, I wish the renderings could be, you know, as appealing as what this thing might look like. But we are looking at the farmer market. Look. We'll cover everything with wood clad and and work with the commission to, you know, and any final tweaks and designs about how much how that wood looks. But, um, this is the best location to actually achieve net zero for town hall. Um, it would be. It would be one of the first in New England to be net zero. So it's quite an accomplishment that you'd be that you'd be doing. So I can answer any other questions you have, but um, and appreciate everyone's, you know, getting different bits and pieces of this, but we've been been at it for a few months trying to get you all the information.

00:26:04,067	S1:
Deirdre. Go ahead.

00:26:07,200	S13:
Thank you. Deer day parade, Maple Street. I am a member of the Select Board. However, I'm speaking on my own behalf. This evening I appreciate the diligence of the Historic District Commission, and we know from the master plan process, especially, that it is foremost in the minds of our community to preserve the historic character of the town. That is not in dispute. I do, however, want to submit my full endorsement and complete support for this project. We are existing in this time in a climate emergency. There are no other words for it except for that it is an emergency, and I think it is incumbent upon us, as leaders of municipal government, to do everything we can to offset the pending climate emergency. I also submit that although the Historic District Commission's purview is to look at what fits with the character of the town. There is new legislation in the state and I'm going to quote it for everyone's reference. Chapter 40, see section seven of Mass General Law. Now states, notwithstanding any general or special law to the contrary, the Commission Historic District Commission shall give substantial weight to the threat posed by climate change and to the Commonwealth's obligation to meet statewide greenhouse gas emission limits and sub limits. Established under chapter 21 N when ruling on applications for Certificates of appropriateness for solar energy systems. I think that ruling in favor of this project is not setting any wild precedents. I think it would be consistent with what the state has now enshrined into law. It would be consistent with the climate pledge that was signed by the Wenham Selectboard prior to my own tenure, although I supported 100% to move us forward. This is not a beautiful structure. I'm not trying to say that it is. And in the 18th or 19th century, or whatever time frame we're trying to peg our historic district to, we did not have solar panels. This is a utility. It is not going to be perfect. But just as we need telephone poles and we need electric wires, we now in this century also need solar power. This is the situation that we live in and I appreciate the aesthetic concerns. I think we can mitigate many of those concerns with trees, with wrapping it with wood and so forth. But to me, the overriding point in all of this is that it is a climate emergency. And as I said, it is incumbent upon us as a municipal government to do everything we can to future proof the town from all of the effects of climate change. And that's. I'll stop there.

00:29:13,567	S7:
Thanks, Ezra.

00:29:14,501	S1:
Is there anybody else from public?

00:29:21,100	S7:
I do not see any. Kelly.

00:29:24,100	S1:
Um, thanks, everybody for their comments, I appreciate it. Deirdre, we were aware, made aware of the the law that's coming down that hasn't been made law yet. Um, back to the commission.

00:29:37,100	S13:
Sorry, Kelly. It is actually law. It's in it's in chapter 4143.

00:29:43,767	S1:
Okay.

00:29:44,300	S13:
And it was enacted in February of 2025.

00:29:49,000	S1:
Okay. Thank you. Um, so to the committee, you know what our charges is to keep the intent of the district. Um, we have made concessions, um, where there has been demonstrated proof. We've also the town has recently adopted and installed a geothermal system, which I understand reduces the overall impact, um, of the emissions by 75%, which I think is great. Um, so there are things that have been done already to help with climate change. Um, but now we're here at a vote. Um, and I just want to ask for clarification, Joe, once the HGC votes, what is the next step? So everybody here on can be informed?

00:30:49,267	S14:
Sure. Correct.

00:30:50,200	S7:
Yep. Assuming, um, this passes, it would go next to the finance committee to do a full review of the fiscal impacts and to see if it's if they feel it's best for the town, it would then go on to the select board before them to get another up or down vote. And this would also have to go to town meeting because this is not a least the town would actually own these. Um, uh, so that wouldn't have to be an article, but what would have to go on town meeting would be the tax, the federal tax, um, lease that we'd be taking out. That would have to require a town meeting vote. So assuming all that happens, the project would get underway probably shortly after that town meeting. Um, late spring.

00:31:35,767	S1:
So we would never be able to take advantage of the tax credits.

00:31:41,267	S7:
I'm sorry.

00:31:42,667	S1:
Because the town would have to vote on it. Then we wouldn't be able to take advantage of the tax credits. Is that correct?

00:31:49,000	S7:
We would still get the tax. The it would pass the town and then we would get the tax credits. Yes. As long as we're bill and correct me if I'm wrong, but we to get this um uh, to help, we'd have to get the paper signed, I believe, by the Select board by January 5th, but it'll still have to go to town meeting and get approved at that point as well.

00:32:10,501	S8:
Correct. We wouldn't proceed without a notice to proceed from town meeting. Um, and the other tripwire is, uh, construction starts by July 4th.

00:32:30,901	S7:
Um, Mike.

00:32:31,467	S3:
Go ahead.

00:32:31,868	S14:
I just have one clarifying question.

00:32:33,767	S2:
I just want to make sure I heard Bill correctly. Thank you so much for sharing. If did did I hear you say that we, the town of Wenham, will actually be able to actualize that 30% tax credit that expires on January 5th, so long as we sign a contract on January 5th and begin the project by July 4th.

00:32:53,167	S8:
That's correct.

00:32:54,868	S2:
And would there be some sort of, like, right to cancel the contract? Okay. All right. Thank you.

00:33:04,601	S7:
Go ahead. Mike.

00:33:06,767	S3:
Yeah. So I just want to point of clarification, so I understand the goal of making the town hall itself and that zero. But even if you have installed solar panels to offset is the grant contingent on the building itself being net zero or could as as a town, can we place the panels somewhere else and still get that benefit, um, feeding to the grid or another, another facility and still realize the grant?

00:33:41,100	S8:
The solar projects tend to be really net zero. It's a behind the meter project. Vicki has spoken to town leadership about maybe you know, somewhere else, but that she felt that that was not she she questioned whether that you'd be able to consider. You know, town hall net zero by doing that.

00:33:59,968	S3:
But that seems just a nuance, right? I've worked in other communities where, like in Wellesley, they have municipal solar that that offsets schools that are miles away from it. So I don't understand. It just seems like a way. So you could say the town halls net zero as opposed to the actual benefit, which is energy reduction, greenhouse gas emission.

00:34:24,267	S8:
Because also affect the economics, because the net meter is like a net meter credit on the bill. It only is like an energy credit behind the meter offsets. You basically utility bill and your energy bill, you know, from the third party if you have it.

00:34:36,267	S14:
Yeah.

00:34:36,467	S1:
But isn't the geothermal achieving a lot of that already?

00:34:40,267	S8:
Well, the geothermal, uh, actually increased the electric load at the town hall. It got rid of fossil fuel, you know, gas load. Um, and then the only way to really get to net zero is to elect is as to now you have electrified load. You have to have that coming from, um, clean generation. Um, and so, uh, that's what the solar behind the meters for other projects you could meet or, I mean, you could use net meter financial credits over to any of your town accounts from other sites, but, um, you know.

00:35:14,367	S14:
So then that.

00:35:15,100	S1:
Would be achieving the net zero goal of the committee, right of the town.

00:35:22,267	S8:
What would be.

00:35:24,868	S1:
By utilizing other sites?

00:35:30,767	S8:
Um, I mean, Joe, you could talk to Vicki's advice that she, she she didn't think that you could say the town hall was net zero if you tried to off site net meter or credit over it.

00:35:43,067	S7:
But yes, that's my understanding as well. We did talk to Vicky about that. Um, other locations.

00:35:50,868	S15:
Could you just clarify who Vicki is and what that means?

00:35:55,400	S14:
Yeah.

00:35:56,167	S15:
If it's not net zero, does that mean there's less money for the geothermal project in terms of credits? What is the bigger financial picture here?

00:36:07,667	S7:
Like how one cycle. Sorry. Vicki Musson is our energy manager. She works for Hamilton and Wenham. Go ahead. Bill. I'm sorry.

00:36:15,000	S8:
Yeah. Um, the

00:36:20,200	S8:
the the best option is to be behind the meter financially and, uh, tied to exactly to the building load. Um, there are other nuances, um, depending on someone's interpretation, on net metering credits from off site solar projects. You're supporting solar, you're supporting, you know, additional development of that market and more clean generation. Um, but whether it makes it build a specific building in that zero building, uh, remains to be seen.

00:36:54,267	S1:
So essentially you're just trying to get one building net zero. Not the town, not anything else, which it doesn't seem like that's in, supports the overall master plan.

00:37:07,400	S8:
Well, I think you're trying to take a bunch at a time. And, you know, here's an opportunity to net zero. You know, town hall, which is one of your more public facing buildings, um, to be the lead, you know, be an example to others to, to try to, to do the same. Um, I, you know, I think it's the first building in town to also electrify. Um, and then would be the first building to net zero behind the meter.

00:37:34,868	S1:
So you have your hand up.

00:37:37,300	S10:
Yeah, I just I mean, I want to point out it's not like there's a lot of other places to put these, uh, that tie into the municipal system. And and, you know, we can talk about hypothetical. Other spots, but, um, you know, it's like arguing a negative. We have a specific proposal. Here. Um, and again, I think it has the most financial sense for the town, which as a taxpayer. That's the other part I'm interested in. Um, and, um, you know, we start going to sites. Around the rest of the town. We're we're now going to be years away from actually implementing anything.

00:38:27,367	S15:
Um, so in one of the prior meetings, some numbers were thrown around about what the cost would be. What the 30% reimbursement is, and then how much of our electricity bill would be saved versus not doing it. Um, can we just get a refresher on what the current numbers are?

00:38:47,601	S8:
I think, Joe, you could speak, but I think that is for the next meeting, I think, and we're not prepared to discuss that today.

00:38:56,400	S7:
Yes. This is, uh, currently just for historic district architecture, just weighing in on the facade how it would look. Um, we would be. I will say that it's not totally budget neutral. We're trying to get as close as we can to it. Um, but, you know, we would different mechanisms we could use to fund that. Um, but we would get into that with the finance committee if this was approved.

00:39:23,300	S15:
And, um, just to clarify, which proposal are we are we looking at?

00:39:33,067	S7:
There's it's really up to the commission, but there's, uh, the lower lot steel was the original plan. Then there's the lower lot with the wood sort of the markers. Market, um, market, farmer farmers market, the upper lot steel and then the upper lot with wood as well. The least, I will say the least expensive would be the lower lot steel, which was the original proposal.

00:39:59,000	S2:
Hey everybody. Bonnie Anderson from the Historic Commission. So I appreciate all the conversation. And um, and I after learning about chapter Mass General um, 40, the, uh, Deirdre mentioned it earlier. And just reflecting on this, it's become clear. You know, our job here is to either certify it's appropriate, um, or not. And based on Massachusetts general law, it's it's very clear that in my reading of it, we we must, um, we must grant that certificate of appropriateness, and I will just trust and hope and pray that the financial that fin com does that deep dive into the terms and conditions of the contract the budget. You know whether this does pencil out to be energy neutral so on and so forth. And I care deeply about those things. But it's not our it's not within our purview as this commission. So, um, as much as I agree with everything that's been shared, I think I would be in support of a motion to to let this go forward to fin.

00:41:14,667	S1:
Come back. Eve, your hand up.

00:41:24,667	S1:
Okay, I hear you.

00:41:27,501	S3:
You're on mute.

00:41:37,467	S4:
Yes. I do appreciate all the comments that people have made been had made it. They are very thoughtful. Um, and I am a little, um, concerned that suddenly the state is able to dictate in terms of very recently passed legislation based on climate policy. So I'm sure that that is something that could be considered or even, um, pursued in the courts in terms of local jurisdiction. Uh, we have a lot of overreach from the state on so many number of things these days. Um, what I'm hearing is that the goal of net zero would also be wonderful branding and a feather in the cap for Wenham. And while I appreciate that, um, you know, to be one of the first in New England to have a net zero town hall, um, what the purpose of this commission is to determine the appropriateness and to take the long view. Um, we've spent a lot of time talking about additional topics related to this project. However, I would urge the committee to say that this is in an inappropriate location for this structure. Um, and again, Iron Rail and the town property over at Iron Rail is very large. It has tremendous exposure, um, a clear path where trees would not need to be destroyed, even perhaps a bigger footprint. And this seems very rushed. And I urge the committee, as lovers of history and caretakers, uh, you know, we have our 250th anniversary as a republic next summer. Um, so let's think let's take the long term and, um, find another, uh, this is a solution. Um, looking for a problem? This is the, um, putting lipstick on a pig. But when is the lipstick beautiful? Downtown Wenham. Historic Wenham is the beautiful thing, and this structure is the quote unquote pig. And I'm not trying to demean anyone in this way, but please vote. I urge you to vote no thank you.

00:43:56,901	S1:
I think we should move to a motion. Unless. Deirdre, I don't want to keep going back and forth. It's going to get silly. So unless you have another question for clarifying question, Deirdre, um, I suggest we move forward.

00:44:09,868	S13:
I would like to make a clarifying comment then, based on the last person who spoke, we are in fact looking at solar projects at Iron Rail. However, that is a different project. It does not accomplish the goals of this project that is in front of the HTC.

00:44:31,567	S1:
Thank you. Um, so what I think.

00:44:38,868	S15:
Yeah. I'd like to make a motion to, um, to vote on.

00:44:47,000	S15:
This in the upper lot with wood cladding.

00:44:55,167	S7:
Is there a second?

00:45:00,067	S2:
I'm sorry. Could we just maybe consider amending that motion to pass this on to fin comm and let them make the financial determination of which is wisest, like which will give us the most, um, energy back especially. We don't have that information in front of us right now. And that's really.

00:45:16,400	S1:
That's.

00:45:17,367	S15:
No, this is exactly what our purview is. The the setbacks, the and the visuals. Those are the and whether it's appropriate for this location. Yeah.

00:45:32,167	S1:
So here's how you restate it. And then make a motion.

00:45:37,000	S15:
Um, so motion to I guess vote for.

00:45:46,601	S15:
I don't we don't even have what the dimensions are. Do we.

00:45:49,901	S1:
Know.

00:45:51,567	S15:
Okay.

00:45:54,367	S1:
We don't we don't have anything. I mean, this is all going to be wrestled out by the by ESG. I have no idea. So, um, and we don't have renderings from the site. I mean, we don't have. So anyways.

00:46:09,667	S7:
We do have. I'm sorry. We do have renderings right below that.

00:46:12,701	S1:
From the street View. You don't really have renderings and we don't have any, um, specific as to the height, the length, the widths.

00:46:20,200	S8:
Those dimensions are in the application. Yeah.

00:46:23,100	S7:
They are.

00:46:24,200	S16:
Oh, okay.

00:46:25,501	S15:
Um, do you want to bring this up? And I can.

00:46:30,100	S2:
Both are equally unappealing in their attractiveness. I just I propose that amendment because it's really this is about the good of the town and not neither one of them are beautiful. So, uh, whether it's behind town hall or up further by in on one is immaterial to my yes or no. But I would just think that's like the they'll have a final proposal with final energy, you know, renderings and all of these things that were present.

00:47:02,701	S15:
But this is this is our purview. So that's that's the motion I'm making.

00:47:08,667	S2:
Okay. Thank you for clarifying.

00:47:10,501	S15:
So far. We don't have a second for it. And so.

00:47:15,868	S5:
Lisa seconds. Did you hear that?

00:47:19,801	S15:
Yes.

00:47:24,167	S5:
Okay. He's saying to the Upper Wood farmhouse. Okay.

00:47:31,467	S15:
I repeat that you're breaking up.

00:47:34,400	S5:
Oh, I only second if it is is the upper lot wood version? Yeah.

00:47:48,467	S5:
That's the only one I'm not saying to any other. So that's the motion. Let's be clear.

00:47:57,467	S3:
Can I ask you a question? Just. Is this. I mean, one of the problems I have right now is that it's unclear what I'm voting on, because I don't think the renderings do. A, I don't have a. So the purview of this committee is to vote on appropriateness. I don't think I feel like I have a sufficient information to vote on its appropriateness, given what has been presented to date. And so I think that's part of my problem is that, like it's a design issue, and that's part of what our purview is, to see how the design fits in with the community and the historic sense. And so, Bonnie, I appreciate what you're saying. And I'm completely in support of the solar, but as what our charges of this committee is, is to vote on its appropriateness. Other other aspects will be voted on by other committees. And I understand the Massachusetts law, but it's but it's I feel like we're backed in a corner at this point. In some ways, we're voting on something that I don't feel like I have enough information to do that. And I also feel like, um, you know, we this will this will go to town, vote. I don't know what the process is in terms of what the town is voting on. Are they just voting on the financials of it? Are they voting on the are they going to have a say in terms of what they feel is appropriate for the town? Um, so from a historic standpoint right now, I feel like I probably this would be a no vote for me because of lack of appropriate information on it. Then, Bill, I appreciate what you've done. But like this is this is a sensitive topic we have a divided community on just on this call on this. And I understand the charge of the state, but and it's it's incumbent on us to vote on something that we can stand behind. Yes or no.

00:49:44,801	S8:
But like you, when you were at the, um, the walkthrough. Right. Yeah. And you had a rendering in your hand and it wasn't even really the rendering of that. It was a farmers market solar project in Vermont. And I thought you stated right then and there that you could vote on this based on this rendering in your hand.

00:50:03,267	S3:
Now, you didn't say that. I said I could vote based on a design like this, but I didn't see I haven't, so I've seen that. But I again, we don't see a view from the road, which is the primary from one A, which is I thought that one of the things we had requested.

00:50:18,868	S8:
Well, that's, that's in the, that that's in the PowerPoint, there's a view from the map.

00:50:22,167	S3:
That's not. That's not a view from one end. It's a with the town hall in it. It's not a view from that. So I think.

00:50:30,167	S8:
You have.

00:50:30,567	S3:
The back end.

00:50:32,267	S8:
Okay.

00:50:32,968	S3:
You you showed one of those before. So I thought, you know, we'd get some of the, like the, um. So, you know, I appreciate the effort gone into this, but I kind of say, you know, there has to be some planning. I understand the time frame of this, but at the same time, you know, there has to be some this this is this will set a precedent for a lot of towns. This will set a precedent also for our community. As much as we can say that it won't, it will. Um, and I just think we need to do our, our due diligence on this.

00:51:08,100	S1:
And if we agree on it, then where is it going to go next? If the economies don't work, then they don't work. It could be shot down. And then it's going to go to town hall vote. And it's going to go in two different directions again. And we're already at quite a divided town again. To Mike's point, again, I'm very unclear.

00:51:31,901	S8:
About the dimensions in the application. So they're they're 40 by 60. It's 13. 6 to 16. Six foot heights. And it's going to it's going to look like you know what we proposed. I mean, I don't know how much different a rendering from the roads. It's going to be a solar canopy. It's going to be up on the back lot. We asked it to be.

00:51:54,100	S3:
Well.

00:51:54,868	S15:
Could you read the.

00:51:55,567	S3:
That's what I'm. It's what I'm saying I need. I'm an architect. I can imagine what it looks like, but I'm concerned about this. I again, I need to do my due diligence to see this.

00:52:07,868	S3:
From that, you know, from that view, from the view that people see it from. And I understand the town's goal. And I think it's, you know, I'm completely, 100% in favor of it. But as you know, I can't. I can't bring my, you know, these other things into this, this conversation. The charge is what how we vote on this from a historic standpoint. That's the charge of the committee.

00:52:30,767	S1:
And and they and the new law that's out. There's nothing that addresses this in historic districts. So that's why this has gone back and forth with so many debates. We have constantly, consistently asked everybody for other sites. And I still get to say everyone come back, comes back and says that iron rail is being used for other purposes. Well, why can't we add more panels to that area and use the energy from there, thus resulting in net zero? It's not meet or net zero, whatever you call it, but I don't I don't know why. That's why we can't do it that way.

00:53:10,701	S16:
Joe. Yeah. Joe. So, Kelly. Um, it's Bob Knowles, 201 Main Street. I've been here for 25 years. Um, one of the founding members of the Hamilton Wenham Climate Action Team with Sue Petrolia, who's on this call, and Greg Horner of Hamilton. Uh, it was our group that three years ago with Select Energy, uh, who also won an RFP to do all solar and municipal solar in Hamilton and Wenham. Um, we are select is going to do a solar project, to be clear, with everybody here on the rear ball field at 288 kilowatt ground mounted solar project at Iron Rail. So that site is done. I've been in the solar industry for 15 years. I have personally scoured both towns for every possible municipal site that would be appropriate and is out of sight, out of mind as physically possible. And we. There are no sites left. All the rooftops are, for the most part, developed. Uh, the ground is. Um, either there's problems with interconnection. On Walnut Road, I've studied all of it. So along with Select Energy, with John Domenica, the senior project development manager. So, you know, we're we're very constrained by how much we can do here in both our towns. So, you know, I would just want to clear the air on that. And I'm very supportive of this project, as is the entire climate action team of roughly ten of us, um, along with the one on climate sustainability committee. So, you know, I would I would say that 95% of us on this call, I'm going to go out on a limb here. And our the citizens are very supportive of the of this project. When when I hear Divided town, I wholeheartedly disagree. We were we are all on the same page. The the Select board two years ago unanimously approved the climate change resolution unanimously. I was also at Hamilton's town meeting two years ago. 95% citizen support from about 400 people in the audience. So we are not divided folks. We are all on the same page. We are rowing in the same direction. This is an extremely important project that we need to move forward on somehow, some way. I think having it look more like a farmhouse is an excellent idea, so I'll stop there. And thanks for listening.

00:55:56,701	S15:
Um, I just wanted to say so in anticipation of this before the last meeting, I did call the Mass Historical Commission to get their advice because they have, um, people who work as local liaisons. Um, This is a new process for historical commissions. Previously we didn't allow anything like this. It would just be a total no go from the get go. Um, mass historical says they are starting to approve solar arrays in historic districts. Um, I think, you know, and we certainly have the right to, um, have it look as attractive as possible and setbacks and, and that kind of stuff as well. Um, you know, a lot of people have talked about the master planning process. I was also on that committee. This is a huge priority. But also, we heard a ton of feedback from people saying they want to maintain the historic look of one of them, particularly in the Wenham village area, which is right, what we're talking about town hall, the historic buildings at um, at the museum in particular, and this is really a budding the museum it's an interesting museum is not here tonight as far as I can tell. Um, you know, and and there aren't, you know, we asked for are there any examples of historic looking carports and there aren't really at this scale yet. So that's also a concern. You know, it's super visible from the road. Um, it could set a precedent for elsewhere in the historic district. And certainly the upper lot is less visible and probably more practical from a parking perspective as well. Um, and, you know, we're not weighing in on the finances, but as a, as a resident and a taxpayer. Those those are important as well. Those are my oh, and also, you know, in anticipation of this, two years ago, we started talking about how are we going to handle solar because our current guidelines say no solar basically um, or very limited solar options. So we are in the process of getting new guidelines. We we got the funding for that, but we've just started that process. So I think it's part of why we're a bit stressed about this and making this decision ourselves, because we don't have those guidelines and, um, and help and, um, that's it.

00:58:37,367	S16:
Joe, can I make one more quick comment?

00:58:39,567	S15:
That's Kelly.

00:58:40,767	S8:
Mr. Chair.

00:58:41,267	S16:
Kelly I'm sorry, I apologize.

00:58:43,000	S9:
Yes.

00:58:43,801	S15:
Right now.

00:58:44,868	S16:
Very, very, very quickly. Very quickly.

00:58:47,868	S15:
Any discussion period. Just FYI, it's Kelly's discretion.

00:58:53,100	S16:
Okay. Kelly, just quickly, um, I apologize, could you could Kelly or somebody, just an individual on the commission, please explain how a year ago you approved the 20 30 kilowatt system on First Church of Wenham, which is directly in the purview in the visual view of everyone driving in and around right dead center in the middle of town. How did you guys approve that project, which I was very much involved with, with the minister there and helped vet three different proposals, and they went with the highest quality, lowest price, and I was able to help them do that. And thanks to you guys, you approved it in the historical district. And I'm wondering how that process went down, given that it is in the historical district. Thank you.

00:59:45,801	S1:
So that was approved by committee. Um, we followed the guidelines from the 19 the guidelines that we currently have in place. Um, they are visible from the public way. The guidelines say it's generally discouraged, but, um. It's a flesh mounted system. It's integrated into the roof. Um. It's not I mean, it is about as seamless into the fabric of that roof system as possible. This is completely different. You know, it's a structure. So, um, and it's a democratic, you know, everyone weighed in. They gave her a vote, and it was approved. I don't remember what the vote count was, but this is this is this is different.

01:00:38,868	S16:
Yeah, I would agree. Thank you.

01:00:40,968	S1:
All right. So there is a motion on that. Jody, have one more thing.

01:00:44,868	S7:
Just. Yeah. Real quick I just want to say a motion. Yep. I did contact the museum, and they were, uh, seemed okay with it. They had a couple questions as to how long the project would be when it would start, and I also wanted to make sure it wouldn't interfere with the trash removal, and is my understanding that it would not. There's still, Um, you know, she. I'm still following up on emails, but she did. The director seemed fine with the project. I just wanted to point that out. But we did contact the when a museum. They were sent a notice along with the other Butters, and I did have an email correspondence with the director. That's all. Thank you.

01:01:15,400	S1:
Thanks, Joe. All right, so, um, Kirsten, put it forward again. I'm a little unclear how we vote because there's four different locations of the said, um, of the seven.

01:01:29,167	S15:
Yeah. So the the, um, the motion on the table to clarify is to build, um, what are we calling this, a solar catapult. So.

01:01:45,000	S15:
In the upper lot. Um, and get the make sure of the dimensions correctly. Uh, 40 by 60ft, going from Feet six inches to 16 six. I'm not sure about the height exactly. Is that correct?

01:02:03,868	S5:
Yes.

01:02:04,567	S2:
That's correct.

01:02:06,100	S15:
Okay. And with wood cladding and,

01:02:11,968	S15:
um, I mean, I think there could be ongoing consultation with the HTC as to what exactly that would cladding is, because that could be anything. Right? But but that's the the motion at this point.

01:02:29,100	S7:
I believe Lisa at second I believe.

01:02:31,100	S15:
At least a second I did. Yeah. So I added in the, the sizing. Um I just wanted to make sure that we are sure about that sizing. Or we could say up to or.

01:02:44,501	S17:
Up to.

01:02:45,801	S15:
Up to.

01:02:49,567	S15:
Does anyone in the committee have any other suggestions to strengthen that Motion.

01:03:00,467	S3:
Uh, just. Is it? Do we have a site plan for that?

01:03:04,400	S1:
Lights underneath are there. Is there.

01:03:07,200	S17:
Just.

01:03:07,801	S1:
Markers?

01:03:08,567	S3:
I understand the size. And I saw the running, but I don't know the exact location on the parking. Is that indicated on a site plan?

01:03:17,601	S8:
Uh, Geo tech work. Geo tech work. We have to commence if this gets approved. And that would just finalize where it is as a septic system on the ground up there, so we can make sure we don't, you know, there's there's polls for lights up there already. So there has been some pole drilling, but um, it's, it's more towards the, uh, the front of it because it gets more, it gets narrow towards the back. Um, more tree coverage.

01:03:40,267	S1:
So, so it's at the front because when we're up there, the site visit, it was at the back of the lot. You said.

01:03:47,467	S8:
Well, it's it's starts at the front. Um, probably ten feet off the shed and then goes pitch yourself so it pitches down. Toward the bat, about 60ft.

01:04:05,801	S1:
So it's 40ft wide. 60ft long.

01:04:10,167	S17:
Yeah.

01:04:12,567	S1:
And where the where the anchor bolts like the or the front bolts up towards where? By the, um.

01:04:19,667	S8:
By each corner. Each corner. Um, so like a farmer's post. Um.

01:04:26,100	S1:
But are they closer towards the top of the hill or all the way back at that lot? I thought it was all over the back of the lot.

01:04:33,167	S8:
Well, um, the farmer's look has the four posts on each corner. So the first two are start like within ten feet. Once you get to the top and then and then go from there to the back.

01:04:46,167	S15:
So I know farm stand was used, but I would actually advocate more for barn look like an antique barn style, rather than I don't even know what farm stand means, but that's more historically in keeping for when.

01:05:04,100	S15:
Like a barn structure, it's not that different. It's just that that's the phrasing I would use. Um, also, I believe that there was a plan to do EV, um, charging stations. Would that also be in the upper lot?

01:05:21,701	S8:
Yeah. So we would, uh, we would, we would have to still that's not been presented to the town in terms of those economics. We would use the the mass EV program. But um, you could put charging on the, on the, on, on any one or um, of the columns and they would be close to where the cars and park. And that would work because there's electrical, um, that, that runs down some of them.

01:05:44,167	S15:
So okay. So anything added on would need to come back to this commission.

01:05:53,701	S7:
Yes.

01:05:55,067	S15:
And that includes signage too.

01:05:58,701	S7:
That's right.

01:06:00,801	S1:
So at this moment, Kirsten does not include EV charging.

01:06:04,467	S15:
Correct.

01:06:06,868	S5:
We say, can we say, uh, we'll have a final design approval after. I mean, like we're we're saying, okay, forward with the whole project, but a caveat that we can approve final renderings

01:06:26,868	S5:
of the look.

01:06:29,567	S15:
But that work for ESG.

01:06:33,367	S8:
Um, I what I just don't know is what if that gives the caveat to just, um, say no, because I don't know, there could be a difference with, you know, what we think final design looks like in the project. So at some point we start spending a lot of money and and that, you know, so we have to figure that out. Right.

01:06:56,667	S7:
I mean, the CPC has done similar motions, if I recall. Bonnie can correct me if I'm wrong, but just the motion can be crafted to say the ESG will keep the EAC, um, you know, up to date with the information and, um, you know, apprised of what's going on. Essentially, I think the CPC has done that in the past. If I'm not mistaken, Bonnie.

01:07:17,400	S5:
Can I can I add to that and say materials? Okay, final choice like final renderings of materials? Um, you know, post. What's the final on the wood? Can it match some mouldings of the existing structures for not that much money? Again, this is going to be a visual impact and I believe that it can be done nicely if we can make it work. You know, work as a team, get it done, but haven't looked full historically. Kristen said barn esque, but so just that's my input there. Final materials wrap.

01:08:13,868	S3:
I think the only thing I would add is, is, uh, you know, deciding obviously I appreciate the geo tech that has to be done. And you also probably have to redo a sun study with the canopy and all that. Um, but just one concern I have is that being built too close to the pump house building, their historic pump house building. So I think I don't know if there's some provision that, that that doesn't encroach on that building. Um, so I think yeah.

01:08:39,300	S5:
Materials ten for that.

01:08:44,701	S17:
Yeah.

01:08:45,267	S5:
Ten feet. And that's.

01:08:47,400	S3:
I think, just the lack of not not having a defined site plan. I understand the limit, the technical limitations at this point, but I think that is something that we would like to have some input on just to make sure that it's not encroaching, not not to kill the project at all, but just to just to ensure that that that project is not being affected by it.

01:09:06,100	S15:
Michael, just for clarification, that building is new. The fire equipment inside is what's old.

01:09:12,267	S17:
Right.

01:09:12,767	S3:
No. Yeah, I understand years ago.

01:09:14,767	S15:
Yeah.

01:09:22,100	S15:
All right. So currently taking all these amendments. Um, the motion is to build a solar canopy in the upper lot with wood cladding up to 40ft by wide by 60ft long, 13.6in, or 13ft, six inches, two 16ft, six inches in height. Starting. Should we say a minimum of ten feet off the shed?

01:09:50,467	S15:
Um. Pitching down towards the back. Final materials plans. Uh, siting and design approval by the commission. And a goal of not encroaching on the fire building.

01:10:06,767	S1:
Yes.

01:10:08,000	S15:
Um, one other question is, have we heard from the two of butters on either side outside of the museum?

01:10:17,767	S7:
I don't believe so. No, just the museum itself. Uh, Kirsten, but not the other two.

01:10:30,067	S1:
Okay. Can we take a vote now?

01:10:36,667	S18:
Excuse me.

01:10:40,367	S1:
Yes.

01:10:41,167	S18:
I'm in a butter. I'm in a butter at ten friend court. Um, so the upper lot directly is directly impacts our property line. Um, the thing that interests me is, and I'm not sure where our property line is. The the tree canopy there is huge. I, I'm, I'm not sure. I'm. Someone just mentioned a, you know, a solar study. Um, wouldn't it require removing those trees?

01:11:15,667	S8:
No. Um, so I'm not sure if I'm facing. If I'm facing if if I'm coming from the town hall up the hill to that lot. Are you on the right side or the left?

01:11:25,968	S18:
I'm on the left.

01:11:27,100	S8:
Okay. Yeah. That tree line would stay. Um, I think there's a a couple trees, one directly in the back of that parking lot. Um, and then, uh, a 1 or 2 to the right. Um, and I know there's a big field there and a gate to somebody's back of their property. But that that tree line on the left, that would not that would stay.

01:11:49,100	S18:
So. Oh. So that I'm not sure. I was just asking another member. We're we're a condo, four unit condo. I was just asking another member. Um, if those were our trees or your trees, that just for clarification, but, um. Yeah, I'm. I'm a little concerned about the upper lot, I guess. Um, and the impact is going to have on us.

01:12:24,601	S15:
Jennifer, is there anything in particular?

01:12:28,868	S15:
Concerned?

01:12:29,567	S17:
Well.

01:12:30,267	S18:
Well, the lights there are already really bright. Um, and I'm assuming, you know, under the solar panels, I'm assuming there's going to be bright lights. I don't know, I guess I would be interested in seeing a design.

01:12:46,767	S18:
You know, the final design. Um, it it seems to me that there's much more. There's much more, um, of a of a vantage of a solar array in the lower lot. But I understand, you know, the idea of this, you know, maintaining the historic look of the town hall and the village and the prospect of the upper lot seems to be the, you know, the guiding factor here.

01:13:16,868	S18:
But but I, I guess I'd be interested in seeing what it would look like.

01:13:27,767	S18:
So I'm sorry, I, I just, I, I should have jumped in before, but, um, I'll let you go ahead and take your vote and we'll see how how it works out, I guess.

01:13:41,267	S1:
Okay. Thank you. Jennifer. So the motion is read. Lisa has seconded. I move that we, um, take a vote. Now, for those that are in favor from the, um, of the solar project, as stated by Kirsten. Um, please raise your hand and state your name.

01:14:03,701	S3:
Michael. Read in favor, as amended.

01:14:08,868	S2:
Bonnie Anderson in favor.

01:14:14,300	S5:
Lisa in favor, as amended.

01:14:22,167	S1:
Kelly Hough. Not in favor. Kelly Schmidt. Not in favor.

01:14:36,567	S15:
Also not in favor.

01:14:39,267	S7:
Motion carries 3 to 2.

01:14:45,667	S1:
Okay. Thanks. Everybody from, uh. That was here to listen to the, um, solar panel part of the discussion. Um, we've got a couple of other things this evening to take care of. If you'd like to stay and listen, you're more than welcome. If not, you can drop off.

01:15:05,767	S1:
Thank you.

01:15:12,400	S7:
Hi, Brian. Uh, thanks for your patience there. Appreciate it.

01:15:17,501	S17:
No problem.

01:15:19,901	S19:
I've sat through many, many, many of these, so I know how it goes.

01:15:26,868	S19:
On your side? Many times.

01:15:28,167	S17:
So.

01:15:28,868	S1:
Thanks, Brian.

01:15:30,067	S17:
Yep.

01:15:30,467	S1:
Um, so We're back again to discuss 157 Main Street and the renovation and additions or excuse me, the the proposed changes in the additions to the house. And since the last discussion, Brian has submitted some new plans on behalf of the owner. And can you bring up those plans, Brian, please?

01:15:53,801	S17:
Yes.

01:15:54,901	S15:
I just want to clarify. It's 153.

01:15:57,167	S1:
Sorry. 153 I apologize.

01:15:59,167	S17:
Yep.

01:16:01,167	S19:
Um, yeah, I, I sent a request to share.

01:16:04,367	S7:
Yep. Go ahead.

01:16:05,601	S19:
Okay, great.

01:16:08,567	S17:
Let's see. Yeah.

01:16:16,100	S15:
Kelly, just to clarify, are you doing just a quick overview and then there'll be public comment.

01:16:21,000	S17:
Yes.

01:16:28,968	S19:
Okay. Can everybody see the site plan here?

01:16:32,467	S17:
Yes. Yeah. Okay, great.

01:16:35,868	S19:
Um, so just to bring everybody, I think everybody on the call has seen this, uh, at a prior meeting or first meeting, most likely. Um, so just real quick site plan we are doing. Uh, uh, you can see the existing house in the front. We're all familiar with the dotted line is the existing old addition. Um, and then the new footprint in the back with the driveway coming along the side. Um, so the the changes that were made to the plan were we reduced the width. Uh, if you're standing in the back of the lot, looking back the width of the garage by a couple of feet by two feet, and which brought the height down two feet. Uh, I believe it was Michael's comment. Um, last meeting, uh, on the site walk that, you know, he would like to see, uh, some height. um, brought the height, brought down, um, in the what we're calling the barn. Um, and as you can see on the west elevation here, I have a dotted line of where the existing or the ridge height was proposed versus where it is. Uh, so, like, again, we lost about two feet. Um, this still allows the owner to have the spaces that he is looking for on the second floor, and they're appropriate sizes for them. Uh, we did not change. Really anything else on on this elevation or anything regarding the rest of the proposed additions. Uh, this is the gable end from the rear. We took off one of the garage bays. One of the garage doors, and then you can see the outline again dotted in of what was there before. Um, so again, we we have reduced the size overall. Um, we actually took the height of the cupola down as well. So the overall height is reduced by more than a couple of feet. Uh, but the main ridgeline is two feet, um, below what it was. Um, you know, again, the the owner is on the call tonight. Um, he is, you know, invested in really making this a beautiful home. Hopefully the most beautiful home on Main Street. And as we know, you know, it takes a special person to buy a house like this and restore it and add to it in an appropriate way. And we we have that needle in a haystack, uh, that purchased it recently. So, um, yes, the addition, you know, is, um, we think it's still appropriate is is, um, larger obviously, than the existing home. The barn is good size. We understand that, but we still feel that it's appropriate. And, you know, you see large barns out there connected to homes all over the area. Um, this will be done in a, you know, very nice way. Um, wood roof, which we see very infrequently anymore, given the cost of it. Um, that's the way it should be done. And, you know, there's very few of those around, but it was the historically appropriate roof of the time. Um, as long as along with everything else, all the other materials. Um, this will be, uh, again, the nicest house on the street when it's done. And, you know, we have a great owner who does this for a living in various towns throughout New England. And, uh, you know, we feel, you know, we have a good one here. And we'd love to see this happen. And we're very excited about it. We love working on this. And, uh, you know, right down the street essentially from where I live and, you know, not too far from my office. So, you know, we're very invested in this. So it's great to see someone purchasing it that is invested as well and really wants to make it right. So.

01:20:36,467	S19:
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

01:20:41,400	S15:
Um, Brian, could you talk a little bit about the moving of two structures or removing or removing of the two structures that are there and also the ones?

01:20:53,667	S1:
And also I'd like to clarification around the barn as well.

01:20:57,968	S19:
Yeah. So the, um, one second here, zooming in on this existing plot plan. So yeah, as I mentioned at the last couple of meetings on the what's labeled here is the existing garage a number of us walked through a couple of weeks ago. Um, we are planning to remove that to one allow for access to the new garage two. It is a you know, it would require an extensive, extensive renovation to make it habitable in any way. There's a fair amount of mold in that structure. There's a fair amount of rot in that structure. And it was, we think, put together from a bunch of pieces and parts from various old barns, um, probably in the mid 1800s, mid to late 1800s with our guests. Um, given what we see from some of the wood and some of the pieces in that barn, um, the shed is it's labeled here is the old cobbler shed which some of us walked through that is going to be preserved, that will be moved to, um, an area behind the garage. Um, actually, I got to get the other site plan on here, but, um, you have you have a site plan that has the shed right about here where my cursor is. Um, I sent that to you guys. Um, that will be, you know, redone, um, new new siding in terms necessary, but in, you know, exactly as it was just in a different spot on the site. Um, and that is the old what we understand, the old cobbler shed. Um, from one of the previous owners.

01:22:56,601	S15:
Um, can.

01:22:57,167	S1:
You explain the. Did you have a, um, an engineer walk through the barn, or did you have Melanie go through the barn?

01:23:05,667	S19:
We did not know.

01:23:08,000	S17:
Okay.

01:23:10,767	S1:
Can you also explain the size of the existing house in terms of the additions and what the ratio is?

01:23:19,067	S19:
Well, if you're taking the barn out of the equation, write the addition. Go to the plan here.

01:23:33,801	S19:
And kind of see what we're adding. So we're preserving the kind of four square layout of the house. The existing living room, as it's shown up here on the top, currently has no walls in between the two spaces. There probably were. It probably was originally. Um, but you know, the main, you know, kitchen space will be in the new addition along with a scullery and a rear entrance and then a first floor bedroom. Um, obviously the largest part of the addition is the garage and space above, which, you know, we're calling the barn. Um, so, you know, I think. to your question, the barn is is a separate piece. Even though it's attached, it's a separate piece. Right? It's, you know, this whole progression of the main house to the addition to the barn. Um, so, yes, the kitchen space in the bedroom and the, you know, hallway gallery space is a little bit bigger than the first floor of the existing structure. Um, you know, the barn is it's own is it's own piece here. Um, and then upstairs, only a portion of that second floor is habitable. The area above the kitchen is a new primary bedroom. And, um, again, being in this house, the upstairs is reasonably small to try to fit even three bedrooms in a couple bathrooms. So we felt this addition was appropriate to have the the primary suite in the back, and then the barn will have a couple more bedrooms in it. And, um, you know, we'll serve initially as kind of a the owner wants to construct, construct that first and then get into the rest of the restoration of the house and renovation of the house so they can have a space to live in this area and on the property while they're finishing up the house. Um, and then that will just become essentially a, you know, a guest quarters later on. Um, so hopefully that kind of answered your question. Again, we're not arguing that it's a small addition. It's not um, I think, you know, especially from this standpoint here, from this elevation, which is the driveway elevation, which you only really see in the driveway. Um, it's scaled appropriately. Yes. The barn, it's a it's a larger barn, but we know there's larger barns along this, this stretch. Um, you know, Kelly, your old house was one of them. So, um, you know, it's it's appropriate in our in our minds, um, it just happens to, in this case, be connected to the house.

01:26:30,267	S15:
Um, Brian, I know just for people who might not have been at other meetings, but, um, could you talk about the other additions which on the agenda were listed as non historic but are, I'm guessing at least 100 years old? Um.

01:26:46,100	S17:
And yeah, I yeah. Let me try to see.

01:26:48,667	S15:
So um, in the earlier plan it was listed as an Adu, the area with the kitchenette and extra bedrooms. But this you know, one of them has restrictions on adu height.

01:27:02,667	S19:
Yeah. Like I said, it's not going to be an Adu. It's not an Adu. Um, but going go going back to the.

01:27:09,968	S15:
Can be independently lived in. What's the.

01:27:12,100	S17:
Difference?

01:27:12,467	S19:
No, it's not going to be a full kitchen. It's not.

01:27:14,467	S15:
You said they're going to be living in it.

01:27:16,467	S19:
I did.

01:27:17,667	S17:
I did.

01:27:18,567	S19:
It's not a full it's not a full kitchen. It will not be a full kitchen when everything is all said and done. Um, it will essentially be a guest, you know, two bedroom guest suite, um, in the end. So the addition that's on the house now, unfortunately, there's not a great picture of it because it's so overgrown. The, um, one piece of the addition is this one story piece you kind of see on the right picture here on the screen, uh, it's mostly covered up by some shrubs. And then behind the trellis is a shed roof, an angled addition that kind of follows the angled property line that, you know, again, yes, it's probably about a hundred years old. Um, but it's it's in very poor condition and isn't what we would consider, you know, a historically appropriate addition to a house like this? Um, the roof type, the angle that it's at. Um, and it's just, it's an odd space, different level. Um, it was more of a, uh, we think it was more of a, uh, almost, you know, outbuilding or almost mini barn that, you know, became attached to the house at some point. It didn't seem like it was originally living space.

01:28:44,067	S17:
Okay.

01:28:46,000	S1:
Brian, did you look at the historical significance of the barn? They're called ten foot sheds.

01:28:53,100	S17:
I'm sorry.

01:28:54,000	S1:
Did you look at the historic, uh, relevance of the ten foot shed?

01:29:00,901	S19:
Well, we know that that little shed that I was describing that's going to be moved and restored, you know, was the cobbler's shed as described in various, you know, historical documents on macros. Um, that, you know, we said we were going to preserve, uh, just move and preserve. Um, we didn't look too, too far into that, but, um, other than that's the structure.

01:29:24,367	S17:
That.

01:29:24,601	S1:
I mean, this is one of there's, I believe one Salem. There's one in Danvers. This is one of the few remaining shoe sheds, ten foot shoe sheds in Massachusetts. That's in its original location.

01:29:40,200	S17:
Yep.

01:29:40,567	S1:
So I'm surprised. I mean, I know Mr.. Gosh. What was his name? That Albrook that owned. Uh. Uh, Cleve. Cleve. I think it was his last name that owned it. Um, was there for over 50 years. And it's surprising it's not on the National Register. Um.

01:30:01,767	S15:
Well, it is as part of the district.

01:30:04,868	S1:
Okay, so you know, by moving it, I understand you're not taking it down, but by moving it, it also alters the historic, stark nature of it.

01:30:20,167	S19:
Well, I'd say that it, being completely overgrown and not even visible to the street alters the nature of it as well. And I think by what we're going to do with it, or what the owner is going to do with it, will actually, you know, preserve it and it will make it last for another 100 plus years and versus it, you know, rotting away as it currently is. Um, so preserving, getting it out of where it is, away from everything, putting it out, kind of, you know, behind everything and in the open area will actually help preserve it.

01:30:53,868	S19:
I mean, again, he's not going to open it up and sell tickets to it, obviously, but it's, uh, but it's, uh, you know, a great little structure that we all want to preserve. And that's exactly what we're. That's what we're doing.

01:31:10,000	S1:
How much of this. Including the, quote unquote barn. How much of square footage is that? Plus the addition versus the original house?

01:31:19,801	S19:
How much can you say it again?

01:31:22,100	S1:
So the additions, including, quote unquote, the barn. What is the square footage of all that?

01:31:29,701	S17:
Uh, see?

01:31:38,667	S19:
Total is just over 6000.

01:31:42,501	S1:
And what's.

01:31:43,067	S17:
The first.

01:31:43,601	S19:
Floor and first floor and second.

01:31:44,767	S17:
Floor?

01:31:45,300	S1:
6000. And the original structure is probably.

01:31:47,901	S19:
I think it's.

01:31:48,601	S17:
22.

01:31:49,267	S19:
Or 400 with its additions.

01:31:56,267	S1:
Okay.

01:32:00,200	S19:
And I'm not. I'm not. I'm not counting the square footage of the existing barn or the shed.

01:32:09,767	S15:
Do we want to do public comment? Kelly?

01:32:12,801	S1:
Yeah. Is there anybody? I can't see anybody else.

01:32:17,868	S7:
Please raise your hand if there's any public comments.

01:32:22,567	S7:
I'm not seeing any. Kelly.

01:32:24,400	S17:
Okay.

01:32:25,968	S1:
Does anybody else have, uh, questions from the committee?

01:32:37,601	S15:
Um, I said some comments. So one of the things that's important about this particular property is it ties to Wellington Pool, one of the early town clerks and heroes of Wenham. Um, there's a long history of him by Jack Hawke that people can read, but this was his office. It was not at Town Hall. It was here in the the shed. He was an apprentice in Wenham as a shoemaker, and then became the town clerk for, I think 37 years had the most beautiful handwriting I've ever seen. And there are pictures of him in this little kind of. It's not really a courtyard, but barnyard. So there's the barn and there's the little, well, there's that beautiful little trellis there and this outbuilding and then the house. So I think one of my biggest concerns is that this is radically changing how this property feels and looks and it's authenticity. And also he did also live in the house. Um.

01:33:45,667	S15:
And the scale of, uh, for much of his life, his cousin owned the building. Um, so.

01:33:55,567	S15:
That's a this is one of the best preserved houses, probably on the North Shore, maybe in all of Massachusetts. Um, and and certainly within Wenham. Um, and in two prior owners owned it for 50 plus years each. I think, um, one of the most previous owners, uh, he was on the historic district commission for my time. Um, so I think it's this this particular house and property is is, um, has a lot of meaning for the town and is right downtown, across from just a little bit up from town hall. So, um, I mean, I think this is a beautiful design, but it it pretty radically changes the nature of, of this space. Um, I did look through it, um, when it was for sale, and it's remarkable on the inside as well, which is not our purview, but, um, you know, I had hoped that whoever bought it would would make the barn into a Adu or or livable space. Um, you know, I think there is good potential there. I understand the desire to have parking, but it's a long, skinny, awkward lot. There is beautiful landscaping back in there. Um.

01:35:12,501	S15:
So that's sort of where I am. And I also the, the two bedroom guest quarters really sounds a lot like an Adu to me. In earlier plans, it was listed that way. And I would strongly urge you to to follow the Adu laws of the town, which include, I believe, um, the height of that building can't be more than 75% of the main building and also is restricted in 900ft² by state law.

01:35:46,400	S17:
Yeah.

01:35:52,667	S19:
I mean, just a quick response to that. I, you know, fully understand and appreciate. What it was, what it currently is. Um, the current state of it, which is in quite a bit of disrepair in many ways in many areas. A lot of that is not visible from the street. Um, the, you know, the most of the some of the additions, some of that trellis, some of that landscape and all of that. So, um, you know, we have to remember here what what is, uh.

01:36:28,100	S19:
Um, you know, the purview, um, of the board.

01:36:32,267	S1:
The additions, though, you will be able to see from the street, though.

01:36:35,267	S19:
No, the new additions. Yes, I understand that, but not.

01:36:38,467	S1:
Which is, you.

01:36:39,267	S19:
Know, not not the previous trellis and so forth.

01:36:41,467	S2:
So which.

01:36:42,300	S20:
Is against the you can.

01:36:43,868	S15:
If you're standing at the corner of the property from the street, you can see all of that. I mean, obviously there's a lot of foliage on it right now. You see the barn? That's that's a.

01:36:53,801	S19:
No no, no. Yeah. No, you definitely see the barn. I'm not.

01:36:56,467	S15:
And you know, all outbuildings are protected in the historic district. So unless we give the okay or it falls down on its own or burns down or whatever, an emergency, which hopefully it's not going to happen. Um, you can't just tear them down.

01:37:13,167	S19:
No, no, I know we.

01:37:14,200	S15:
Don't have a demolition, um, delay in the rest of Wenham, but we do in the historic district that is covered as, as, you know, um.

01:37:32,167	S7:
Uh, Mike, do you have your hand up?

01:37:34,267	S3:
Yeah. Um, Brian, I definitely appreciate the design. I appreciate the level of detail that no one wants to go through with, uh, putting on the roof. Um, and, you know, I think. that all that aside, though, I think the, the, the dilemma I have is, um, one just really the size and the visibility and I think, you know, we went back through kind of seeing what other things were the precedent of what's been approved in the, in the past on Main Street, I know. Um, I forget the, the street address for the building that that moved in, turned and renovated. Um, that was a significant, uh, kind of departure from the original, although the house was, was renovated to it for, you know, close to its original, um, design. And the addition was added. There were other additions that were taken off of the original building. So I think the overall the balance of the square footage was pretty much the same. Um, I think I think it's just like, you know, our our charge is to, you know, preserve the kind of nature of what the historic district is. And I feel like because of the size of this, the visibility of the additions, it really changes the nature of the house itself. I know the house is still the primary visible thing from the street, but it just. And I know that you're drawn on historical precedent in terms of like, you know, backups of the house barn, which I appreciate. Um, I just feel like, you know, the combination of the size, the moving of the complex, the taking down the barn, all of it together is just such a real departure from what it is now, kind of this historic nature. Now. It's just it's really it's I think it's just hard to see this as preserving one.

01:39:38,067	S3:
Um, so, you know, I.

01:39:40,767	S19:
See your point. I mean, we are preserving the main house, which is right. The oldest structure that we're, you know, that we're talking about. And, you know, again, the barn was much later. Um, you know, compared to the house knows, but I, I understand your point. And I think that, you know, again, if if this barn, um, they were proposing just calling it the barn. The garage, um, wasn't part of it, right? Um, I think everybody's focused on that because it is a large structure. It's a barn, right? It was it meant to be a barn? Look like a barn and not be this little, little barn, right? Which wouldn't really work here. Um, I think that's I think that's what's throwing some people off.

01:40:24,000	S3:
Right? But I think even the other, if you take the barn out of the equation, even, you know, you're, you're basically kind of the new additions about the same footprint. And then, um, you know, maybe overall square footage is like, you know, close to 80% of what the total of the houses and it's visible from the road, I think, you know. Other other additions that I think have been approved has been like it's not visible from this, from the street kind of thing. So it and they're very minor in nature just like and so I think it's still even even if you take out the barn out of the equation, it's still, you know, significant. It's it's really large. I think it changes the nature of the house. I appreciate your you're taking off a piece that was added, you know, when I was added, but not not totally in keeping it out of out of zoning, but.

01:41:17,767	S19:
Right. Yeah. And I think, I think that, you know, some of, you know, I've done some of the other ones, you know, I've um. 194 he recently is, you know, a lot of those were larger homes to begin with or they were added on to prior to someone coming to you guys for another addition. Right. So that's why some of those additions were smaller, right? Whereas this one is not. It's not the case, right? If you take this little four square house, not counting the old additions. Um, on the back there, it's a pretty small house, right? Yeah, very small house. Right. And if you if you go up and down Main Street. Yes, there's a few small houses that haven't really been touched, but a number of them are, ah, decent sized homes that, um, you know, have either been added on to or were good size to begin with. Um, whether they're, you know, Victorians or Federals or whatever, um, you know, most.

01:42:17,801	S1:
But that might have been done prior to the, to the existence of the, you know, commission.

01:42:24,868	S19:
So, of course, that's what I'm saying, that they it is.

01:42:28,267	S20:
These are the.

01:42:28,868	S19:
Story.

01:42:29,667	S1:
Right. But that in 1977, I believe the historic.

01:42:34,801	S20:
Just.

01:42:35,167	S19:
Oh no, no, no, I'm saying that they were done well before that. Right. Right. In appropriate way. They're larger homes, they're appropriate, they're fine. And they had multiple editions that were fine. Right?

01:42:45,467	S20:
Um, they were fine against.

01:42:47,167	S1:
But there was no there was nothing. There was no guidelines back then. I'm just saying, since they've been put in place, I don't there's no historic reference that you've brought to us that say, you know, we've got a 2000 square foot house with a 4000 square foot addition, like they're even even up to the one that you're doing up the street, which is, you know, you can't see it from the road. And it's a small addition, right? So, you know.

01:43:12,167	S20:
You're.

01:43:12,367	S19:
A small addition to a very large house, a pretty large house.

01:43:16,100	S20:
Right? So so these are the point.

01:43:18,267	S15:
Historically we're small for a reason. So that is.

01:43:21,167	S20:
Actually.

01:43:21,467	S19:
I.

01:43:21,567	S20:
Understand that.

01:43:22,100	S15:
Industry. And so turning a small 1700s house into a big modern house is it's just antithetical to what.

01:43:32,801	S21:
No. I'm sorry I'm going to chime in. It's just disingenuous that you say that. Look, this is a classic big house, little house additions. They exist all over New England. If you're saying that the bar is you can't take a 2000 square. The 2000 square foot house, which from a modern living standpoint, just isn't. Is it rational and expanded on a classic New England design? If that is your litmus test. Then I'll just remove this entire proposal. I'll put the house back on the market and let somebody else do it. Because the reality is the house has been fallow for the last 50 years. It is loaded with black mold. It is not economically viable to do a restoration of the existing house. It's a house that we're doing for our family not to turn around and flip and sell. I've done more than 20 historic restorations. The last one exceeded $10 million in Hancock, New Hampshire, and it's gorgeous. If you don't want us to do this restoration of this property and this house is fine. Just let me know. But what I'm not going to do is I'm not going to spend a whole lot of money to restore a 2000 square foot house, which is not usable for modern living. What we provided is historically accurate. It's reasonable from a historical precedent, and it does what we need. If you're not happy with that, I'm fine. I'll take. We'll just put the house on the market and you guys can have somebody else to it. I've sat here and I'll watch you for an hour and a half. Turn yourself into a pretzel.

01:45:07,167	S1:
Excuse me, sir, you cannot address the committee like that. Thank you.

01:45:11,701	S21:
Yeah. Thank you. I already know your vote. Go ahead and do what you're going to do. Have a nice evening.

01:45:17,167	S15:
And I do just want to specifically say, you know, I live in a big house. Little house, back house, barn from this era, a little bit older or younger, rather. Um, I guess my concern is that's not how this particular house evolved. It is not a restoration to make it into something different. And that's specifically in our guidelines and our charge that we're not supposed to take something from somewhere else and put it in here. This is how this 1700s house evolves. It's exactly how it evolved. So to do this really radical change of the structure of the whole property. It's it's big. This is beautiful. It's just not authentic to the history of this property.

01:46:07,100	S20:
So but.

01:46:08,801	S19:
We're talking about the future.

01:46:10,167	S20:
History of the project.

01:46:11,000	S15:
It's your choice to do what you want with it.

01:46:13,167	S19:
But the history is continuing. Right. This is the history, right? We are doing something that could have been done a hundred years ago or more, and we're doing it now versus then, but it's appropriate. We're not putting a big modern addition on, you know, what have you. You know, some modern glass box. You know, it's it's appropriate for this era to have done this to this house. Yes. No one did it to this House. I understand that they put on some crappy little shed roof addition a hundred years ago. That is a complete eyesore, and we're trying to make it better and trying to do something that could have been done then and would have been appropriate then.

01:46:56,267	S15:
On a farm. But by that point, this was not a farm anymore. This was.

01:47:01,067	S19:
No, this would.

01:47:01,667	S20:
Have been done history.

01:47:02,901	S19:
It should have been done in numerous places. Numerous places.

01:47:05,968	S1:
All right. Let's stop. Okay. We're going to see. Is there anybody else in public comment? No. Okay. I move to vote. The plan as specified here. Um, the revised plans.

01:47:24,367	S1:
For 153 Main Street.

01:47:32,167	S1:
I second all those in favor?

01:47:37,100	S2:
Bonnie Anderson. Yes.

01:47:39,467	S5:
Lisa beneke. Yes.

01:47:43,868	S15:
Kirsten. Alexander. No.

01:47:46,601	S3:
Michael. Reid. No.

01:47:49,200	S1:
Kelly. Schmidt. No.

01:47:52,601	S7:
Motion fails. 3 to 2.

01:47:56,167	S1:
Brian, we appreciate all your time. I'm sorry. Your client got very disturbed.

01:48:00,701	S20:
Um, well.

01:48:01,501	S19:
It.

01:48:01,767	S20:
It is.

01:48:03,167	S19:
You guys. You vote on a freaking ugly. I didn't I couldn't say anything, so I'm not.

01:48:08,667	S20:
Brian.

01:48:09,000	S1:
We're not talking about that.

01:48:10,767	S19:
Well, but.

01:48:11,701	S20:
Come on.

01:48:12,067	S1:
Brian, it's a it's a Democratic vote. This is going to planning and it's going to go to town committee. And believe me, it is it divided. We are divided on that as well. So I don't care with what Mr. Knowles says up the street, but it is divided and there's two more people that have two more committees that have to vote on it. I completely agree. It is. It is in my head.

01:48:33,801	S19:
You voted for it, but you voted for it.

01:48:35,567	S1:
I did not.

01:48:36,167	S19:
Vote for I know you did. You didn't know. But the vote the board did. I understand right? Yeah I know.

01:48:40,767	S3:
I mean, Brian, there's considerations on the table with that one. Okay. So that's.

01:48:46,000	S19:
Not really.

01:48:47,300	S3:
Yeah. Not really.

01:48:48,300	S19:
Because not for you guys. Not for you guys.

01:48:50,901	S15:
There is new state law.

01:48:52,567	S1:
There's a state law that says if we have to do this, and there's also a period of motive that's planned that they put forward, that we were going to be the first greening greening town. So there's a lot more stuff that's coming up. We it was a split vote. Brian.

01:49:06,467	S19:
No, no I know I understand it was a split vote and you know, you but you you passed it knowing it was a vote.

01:49:11,801	S3:
Yes. But there's also just just so you know, Brian, we have to also look at precedent here. So we're we're setting a if we approve this at this size.

01:49:22,100	S19:
Right now.

01:49:22,567	S3:
We are.

01:49:23,167	S19:
No you're not though I listen, I've, I've been on multiple boards for a long time, and you're not setting a precedent by voting for this one project. Every project specific site to its site. No, you're not to its site. Right. Everybody uses that excuse. Listen, I understand. I was on the planning board. I've been on multiple boards for a long time, and it's not a precedent by you voting for this one thing, you know, but it's appropriateness for one site, right? Just because somebody.

01:49:53,767	S3:
That may be.

01:49:54,100	S19:
Your opinion.

01:49:55,100	S3:
But I, we consider other things that have happened before inappropriateness and other votes. And so you may not. I do. Others do consider these precedents.

01:50:08,567	S19:
They're site specific. They should be in this case. In this case.

01:50:13,100	S3:
Everything is site specific.

01:50:14,701	S1:
Okay. We're going to end this conversation. We still have one more thing to vote on tonight.

01:50:18,667	S15:
Thank you. You're always welcome to come back with another proposal.

01:50:22,767	S19:
Well, he's selling the property. He told me just a minute ago, it's like he's going back on the market.

01:50:26,467	S15:
So that's your decision?

01:50:28,400	S19:
He lost a needle in the haystack. So we'll see what happens.

01:50:31,167	S1:
And then there's other people. Brian, as you know, that will come in and buy it in their will.

01:50:36,000	S19:
Oh absolutely. People that will buy it. But there won't be people that will do it like this. You lost a great you. You lost a good one.

01:50:42,167	S1:
There's there's always a buyer out there for a house. And somebody will come back and restore it to some. And it may not be to his satisfaction. Or is his to his grade or his standards, or with a friggin cedar shingle house. Nobody has $10 million in the pocket to do all that stuff, but somebody will buy that house and put it back together, just like I bought 157 Main Street, and I put it back together on a shoestring budget and replaced all the stuff that I did and did it without going out a footprint. It's the same thing. Somebody will find it, you know? And I'm sorry that.

01:51:14,767	S19:
The answer.

01:51:15,167	S1:
Is aggressive.

01:51:16,267	S19:
Till like.

01:51:17,667	S1:
So, you know, that's his prerogative.

01:51:20,167	S19:
He wants it's you know, it's just too bad. I mean, this was a. You all said it's beautiful.

01:51:25,400	S1:
That's beautiful. I don't agree with it.

01:51:27,901	S19:
That's what matters.

01:51:30,501	S3:
That's not good.

01:51:31,567	S1:
According to the guidelines, the bylaws.

01:51:33,300	S19:
So that was most of it. Most of it. I was just looking at them. Most of it, though. Now is what it is. Thank you for your time. Multiple meetings.

01:51:47,367	S3:
Appreciate it.

01:51:48,701	S1:
All right. So are we going to do this voting now on the CPA funds.

01:51:52,801	S7:
Yeah.

01:51:53,167	S1:
So town can we table it or not?

01:51:57,400	S7:
I think, uh, it's important just to at least consider this just because the CPC. Their deadlines for their applications are December 5th. Um, why.

01:52:05,767	S22:
Do we keep on, like, getting.

01:52:07,000	S1:
Nailed back into these, like, corners? Like.

01:52:12,200	S7:
This was. This was brought to me, Kelly, just to bring this to this board. This is not me. This is, uh, last year, this was a Projects to digitize the documents downstairs. And I was told that the CPC might have an appetite for it, but we were advised by town council to have the historical, you know, the historical commission, not to HCC. But this board functions as both to deem the records historic so that the CPC would have more authority to potentially approve this.

01:52:42,267	S7:
The the actual town hall is in Macross, the state registry of historic places, but the documents have not. As far as I can tell, have not been deemed historic by the Historical Commission.

01:52:51,367	S1:
So make a motion to for all the historic districts that are currently in the town hall through 19. The comment rather from 1950 onwards or to do it to 1990, what was the.

01:53:03,767	S3:
Date 1984.

01:53:05,567	S1:
1984, 1985 to deem them historic properties so they can be digitized.

01:53:11,467	S15:
Unless as restricted by law? There are a lot of records that the clerk deals with that are not public. Um, and I think it's like 1930 and before is public, but it's been a couple of years since I checked on that.

01:53:28,100	S2:
So is public is is historic.

01:53:33,167	S15:
Right. So once you start digitizing things though.

01:53:38,200	S15:
Who has access to that? I mean, literally these records are sealed and only can be like birth records. Marriage records. Um, particularly for it's mostly for people who are born out of wedlock.

01:53:50,100	S1:
So how are we supposed to vote on something that we're not supposed to? We don't have? We're voting on.

01:53:54,267	S2:
A very comprehensive list to all of us last week and today and lists this is this is not a complicated thing. These are pieces of paper that will rot if we if they're not digitized, they're in Town Hall Joe's. It's anachronistic if I don't pronouncing that correctly, that which is already on the historic register. The CPC has an opportunity now based on new legal advice we've gotten from Cape Law to fund a request from Town Hall to have these records digitized again. The list is in our emails. I won't read them for you. You can all read them yourselves. Um, we just digitizing them so they don't melt away into the cellar at town hall.

01:54:41,167	S15:
Yeah, I'm not arguing that. Bonnie, I think it's important. I just we can't, um. We have to be really careful about things that are not public. So how are the how are these things used? Who have access to them? All of that?

01:54:57,667	S2:
Well, there's been the.

01:54:58,601	S15:
CDC.

01:54:59,667	S2:
Not to fund it. We're just we're just designating these documents as historic documents. And again, the list of what those documents are are here.

01:55:09,667	S15:
And and I wrote back to Joe with my concerns about what I know are not public records. So if we just say blanket anything up to 1980.

01:55:21,300	S2:
If they're public records, we're saying if they're a historic,

01:55:26,367	S2:
that's what we're doing. And then town hall can then apply for the next step, which is digitizing appropriate records. This is the first step in designating them as historic.

01:55:39,501	S15:
Right. So I'm just saying and and right.

01:55:43,300	S7:
Subject to privacy laws, I think here is what you're saying.

01:55:45,667	S15:
Something like that. Yeah. Um, the other thing I just want to talk about is, you know, we are eligible as a commission committee, um, to apply for CPC funds. So the fact that we haven't had a discussion like that about what else we might want to apply for. And so to me, it's a little bit disheartening that we're just getting a request and passing it where that may not be our top priority. I'm not saying there's something else, but, you know, for instance, if we had a fund to preserve historic homes, the town could buy that house at 153 Main Street, potentially, or put in an application to do that.

01:56:29,067	S2:
We could have done that all year. So there's no.

01:56:32,467	S15:
So I'm just I'm just saying that, um, I would I'm not going to be on this committee that much longer. Um, because I'm moving. But, uh, I would encourage the committee to think about that every year on the right schedule. And as liaison, Bonnie, to, like, bring that back and say, hey, guys, what what do we want to apply for and what are our goals here? And maybe the consultant can help somewhat with that. But um, again, just being more proactive about CPC funds and not reactive.

01:57:02,000	S5:
I agree.

01:57:03,167	S2:
I we're not I'm not being reactive and I but I and I appreciate your feedback to for us as a group to consider that I would love for our group to do that. We have been doing some other things this year, have been busier than previous years in the HGC. So um, but like let's move forward positively. I fully support us simply designating these documents as historic documents so that the application process does not get squashed. And so town hall can apply for this grant.

01:57:37,100	S15:
Okay. So do we have a motion?

01:57:43,467	S2:
Yes, I.

01:57:44,868	S1:
Dare you make.

01:57:45,467	S15:
It written here. Discussion and potential vote to deem a motion to deem town hall records historic, so that the town of Winona may seek Community Preservation Act funds for preservation digitization. So, is there more detail on that?

01:58:03,267	S19:
Uh.

01:58:04,501	S7:
Did you guys get the, um, the separate, um, document I drafted with each department.

01:58:10,100	S22:
No.

01:58:11,367	S2:
Yes, yes.

01:58:13,400	S7:
Yeah, I sent that today.

01:58:14,868	S15:
But did you update it with the the clerk thing, or do we have language from Cape Law on this? Yeah. Pretty much is.

01:58:26,601	S7:
Just, you know I not on the motion but. Well just yeah general advice saying that the you know HTC should a historical commission should in the motion say why each you know each of the records from each department are significant just to give some kind of justification, which is what I tried to articulate, you know, in the the motion I crafted. Um, the main thing is just to deem the records historic, though, so they can be eligible for CPA funds, but also to have some kind of reasoning, you know.

01:58:57,667	S22:
So.

01:58:57,868	S15:
We have.

01:58:58,601	S2:
We do have a motion here.

01:59:02,868	S2:
We have a motion written in this email. Do you want me to narrate it for you.

01:59:07,567	S7:
See if I.

01:59:07,868	S15:
Can. Um, let me just see if I can find it here.

01:59:10,667	S7:
I have it, I can share it here. Yeah.

01:59:14,667	S15:
Oh, here we go.

01:59:15,667	S2:
It's a big one because it includes all the.

01:59:17,167	S15:
Okay, I got it. I can copy it.

01:59:19,167	S2:
Thank you.

01:59:23,100	S23:
Oh, yeah. Sorry. Remember the theme?

01:59:33,400	S15:
Did this have all the committee chairs signed off on this?

01:59:40,567	S2:
We haven't made a motion yet.

01:59:44,167	S15:
Okay.

01:59:46,868	S15:
Do you want to make it?

01:59:49,367	S2:
Um, I move that the one Historical Commission deemed the following materials to be significant to the history, culture, archaeology and or architecture of the town of Wenham. I won't read the rest of these because they're written on the screen, and that's quite wordy. I will read them if you'd like me to.

02:00:05,701	S23:
No. It's okay.

02:00:16,167	S15:
Joe, what was the 1950 date for?

02:00:19,167	S7:
That's honesty. Kelly. Counsel had suggested that, but it's really up to the historical commission. Um, it's really it's sort of, um, uh, subjective, uh, in that regard, just as long as the committee thinks that a certain date is reasonably historic. But I would be looking for guidance from the historical Commission on that. I just used 1950 town Council threw that out there. But it's it's really up to the commission.

02:00:43,267	S1:
I thought I saw an email saying it's up to 19.

02:00:47,367	S7:
The year up to 1950.

02:00:53,667	S15:
Okay. So can we have a friendly amendment to say so I move that the one Historical Commission deem the following materials to be significant. Blah blah blah blah. Um.

02:01:11,467	S1:
Following materials dated.

02:01:12,601	S22:
From actually.

02:01:14,167	S15:
What they're going to be done. What's being done with it?

02:01:17,701	S7:
No, no, I think that's more of the CPC's, you know, review under their review. This is like we just need to deem the records historic, I think for this project to be considered for digitization.

02:01:29,868	S22:
Right.

02:01:30,400	S7:
The actual digitization is not really under the authority of the HTC because it's internal work, because my understanding it's not exterior.

02:01:40,601	S15:
Uh, well, it's not the I mean, aren't we the ones that are mostly submitting for historic funds from CPC, though?

02:01:50,601	S2:
No, this is us responding to a request from town hall to have these records to to have them deemed historic. And that's all the rest is up to. The rest is up to the next committee.

02:02:05,868	S1:
But Joe, what was the email about the date from 1990 or something?

02:02:10,501	S7:
I think Margaret Hoffman had said sometimes it's useful to have the planning. I can dig that out. She used the year 1984. I think she was just kind of throwing that year out, but she was just suggesting that, again, this commission doesn't have to use 1950. They could say up to 1980 80, 19, 1980, for instance. Um, she just saying that might be helpful to have a wider net, you know, cast over it.

02:02:33,367	S1:
So why wouldn't they be up to to 2025?

02:02:36,701	S7:
It can be whatever. I mean, that might be hard to argue, but it could be whatever. You know, the commission thinks is historic. Um, it's.

02:02:44,968	S22:
Really well, let's.

02:02:45,801	S1:
Say then. So when we were, when we were in 1977.

02:02:50,767	S15:
70.

02:02:51,200	S7:
I believe it was 76.

02:02:52,767	S22:
That was it. So, so.

02:02:54,167	S15:
1973.

02:02:55,567	S22:
73.

02:02:56,601	S1:
Went up to 73.

02:02:59,667	S7:
Yeah. That's right. Historic district was created. Yeah. Yeah, 1973.

02:03:03,701	S1:
So do it up to that year.

02:03:08,000	S7:
Okay. I just need a second.

02:03:09,701	S15:
To do it a little bit longer.

02:03:13,767	S15:
See the impact. Like, say.

02:03:21,701	S1:
Or 85. I don't I don't really know how it affects it one way or the other. I was just.

02:03:26,467	S22:
Trying to.

02:03:27,167	S15:
Do 1975. That's 50 years.

02:03:32,968	S23:
Okay.

02:03:35,767	S15:
I can't remember exactly how many years we said for the demolition delay, but maybe kind of a consistent 80 years.

02:03:44,667	S22:
Yeah.

02:03:46,667	S2:
But this is because. Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry. Go ahead. Mike.

02:03:50,767	S3:
I was going to say that's for a house, but I think we can move it up to 50 years for documents.

02:03:59,167	S15:
Um, so can we write this in a way where it just says going back 50 years, and then we have to keep voting on it?

02:04:06,667	S22:
Yeah.

02:04:07,901	S23:
Good idea.

02:04:10,300	S3:
Yeah.

02:04:11,000	S15:
Does that work, Joe?

02:04:12,467	S7:
Yeah. That's fine.

02:04:14,300	S3:
For any documents 50 years or older?

02:04:18,267	S1:
Yeah. I move that the Wadham Historic Mission deem the following materials from that are 50 years or older to be significant to the history, culture, archaeology and or architecture of the town of Wenham.

02:04:36,467	S1:
Did you get that, Kirsten?

02:04:37,901	S15:
Um, where was the 50 years? Where did you put it in?

02:04:44,000	S1:
Dean. The following materials dated bef before 19, but before.

02:04:52,801	S15:
Prior to the date N in right.

02:04:55,501	S1:
Now deem the following materials that are 50 years.

02:05:02,467	S22:
Old or.

02:05:03,467	S1:
Older to be significant.

02:05:11,701	S15:
Bonnie, this was your motion originally. Are you okay with that amendment?

02:05:15,467	S2:
Yes, I am. I mean, I agree with what Kelly said earlier. Why not just go all the way up until the internet age? But I'm just I let's just begin somewhere. So I guess I agree. Thank you. Kirsten. Sure.

02:05:27,567	S1:
Um, is there a second?

02:05:30,367	S3:
Second.

02:05:33,367	S1:
All in favor? Uh, Kelly. Schmidt.

02:05:36,601	S5:
Elise. Monarchy.

02:05:39,000	S3:
Hi. Michael. Reid.

02:05:40,167	S2:
Hi, Bonnie.

02:05:40,701	S15:
Anderson and I, Kirsten Alexander moved. All right, so we're going to take out the up to year 19. Whatever.

02:05:50,868	S22:
Right.

02:05:51,501	S15:
Because it's all now just 50 years, and if the town wants to come back and get more recent stuff, we didn't say within whatever legal stuff is. But obviously you're going to follow state law.

02:06:04,100	S7:
Sure. Kelly. I'm sorry. That was a yes for you too, Kelly. I miss that. Okay.

02:06:08,367	S15:
Um, just be aware that there are weird rules.

02:06:12,501	S7:
Yes.

02:06:13,267	S15:
So if you are. Your parents weren't married when you were born. Your marriage certificate is not a public record.

02:06:22,467	S2:
Thank you.

02:06:23,567	S15:
Unless it was before 1930.

02:06:25,701	S2:
So thank you. But what's great? We are getting legal counsel on this, and that is digitization. That's not you know, whether these are historic or not is what we're paying for. I appreciate you working on this.

02:06:40,467	S22:
All right.

02:06:40,868	S1:
Is there anything else I'm supposed to have gone and celebrated birthday a little while ago.

02:06:45,767	S22:
So.

02:06:46,767	S7:
I just wanted.

02:06:47,367	S1:
You to just need to get back away from.

02:06:49,868	S7:
Yeah. I put the demo to lay back in front of the select board. Just wanted to say that I'm coming, Tommy.

02:06:54,167	S15:
Yeah, thanks. Okay. Um. And my closing on the house is scheduled for December 19th, so I will need to resign at that point. And you'll need a new thank you, clerk, but I will have the minutes done before then.

02:07:11,367	S7:
Thank you for your service.

02:07:12,968	S3:
Yeah, yeah. Sad to see you go.

02:07:14,801	S1:
Yeah.

02:07:16,267	S15:
I'll still be, uh. I'll still have my cottage at Asbury Grove, so I'll be around at least once a month. Great.

02:07:22,667	S2:
Congrats, Kristen. Thank you.

02:07:25,367	S7:
All right. Just a motion to adjourn, I believe.

02:07:27,267	S1:
Um, time now is 8:09 p.m.. November 24th, 2025. Make a motion to adjourn the 1 a.m. Historic District Commission meeting.

02:07:37,367	S3:
Second.

02:07:38,667	S1:
All in favor? Hi. Kelly Schmidt.

02:07:44,767	S7:
Great. Thank you everyone.

02:07:46,467	S2:
Thank you.

02:07:47,000	S1:
Guys.

02:07:47,400	S2:
Appreciate it.

02:07:48,467	S15:
Okay. Thanks. All.