00:00:00,130	S1:
I'm Anne Weekes. I'm the chair. Um, the other members of the board who are here are the rest of the board is here. Dan Pescarolo, would you just indicate. Just say hello or hello? There you go. That's Dan and then the rest of the board. Would you just identify yourselves, please, for the folks who are online.

00:00:24,370	S2:
Dave Anderson's here. Scott Stromberg.

00:00:27,699	S1:
Thank you. And we are one person short due to resignation, which we'll get to talk about later in the agenda. But, um, the first item is a public hearing on a special for a special permit associated with the site plan review under section 255 13.5 of the Windham Zoning Bylaws for the construction of a pizza restaurant and associated signage, parking and lighting. Um, Margaret, I think the the proponents are here.

Um. 00:01:03,570	S3:
And I believe they are. And I think.

00:01:05,930	S1:
I wonder if before we give them the floor for a minute, if you would tell us what the status is of all of the material you need for this. Um, before we get going, just give us a couple of minutes on how things sit from your perspective, please.

00:01:26,400	S3:
Um, I think, uh, Chris, Chris Vance, I believe, is here as the applicant.

00:01:31,930	S4:
Um, yeah. I'm here.

00:01:33,969	S3:
So, uh. Yeah, if anyone who speaks could just identify themselves.

00:01:38,870	S1:
Yeah. I was asking, actually, Margaret, if you would just give the board a little.

00:01:43,599	S3:
Oh, you want me to? Oh, okay.

Yeah. 00:01:45,829	S1:
Just just tell us where things stand with this proposal. Before we get going with the applicant. So we have the background. Thank you.

00:01:53,569	S3:
Sure. So this is a public hearing for site plan approval and for a special permit for signage for a project at 143 Topsfield Road. Um. The applicant is Wenham Corner Realty, and they're proposing the construction of a pizza restaurant, um, with associated signage, parking and lighting. Um, the applicant had submitted most of the information necessary with their site plan review application. But then we realized there was some things that were still missing. So over the past week, we've gotten some other additional information from them. I was able to send most of it to the board, but I know you don't have, um, you haven't had a chance to look at everything. What I've asked of the, um, applicant. Well, I've told the applicant that I believe we would need site plan, um, a peer review on this project. The. It seems like they had to add a stormwater, um, facility, a drainage facility because of the increased impervious surface with the new structure. So, I mean, we can let the applicant go ahead and just describe the project a little bit. But then I would request that the board asks for, um, peer review, and then I can get this all out to the peer reviewer next week to do some more, um, review of the application with the site plan that has changed.

So. 00:03:23,930	S1:
Okay, great. And just to be clear, but when you schedule the public hearing for this, the application was not complete or it was.

00:03:30,370	S3:
Um, well, we got they submitted an application, but then we had not reviewed everything before we scheduled this public hearing. So we typically will get an application and then we figure we've got most everything we need. So we put in the public hearing notice to the newspaper. But in this case a few things came out like we've asked. Now, we did ask for a traffic report, which they've submitted to us as well as the stormwater report. But that did come in just last week, so we haven't had time to review it. And I would need to ask the applicant for funds to for a peer review fund in order to have a peer review, because we don't have engineers on staff that can review that kind of, um, stormwater system.

00:04:14,830	S1:
Okay. Thank you. That's that's helpful background. And I'll, I'll turn it over to the, um, applicant. At this point, unless anybody on the board has a question for Margaret.

00:04:27,430	S5:
I have a quick question.

00:04:29,829	S1:
Dan, please.

00:04:31,629	S5:
I mean, I'm sure we're going to get into this, but why do we need a traffic report for this? Is this going to be de minimis? I mean.

00:04:39,470	S3:
Well, honestly, Dan, um, it's a requirement of site plan review. So I did ask for it and they submitted it. And there's probably an increase of um, 40 to 50, Track trips. Am and PM. Um. Additional trips onto this site. Am and PM. So I think that's like 100 trips a day. Uh, we just want to have the.

00:05:04,129	S6:
We don't we don't have the end of the weeds. I was just curious what we need.

Okay. 00:05:07,000	S1:
Yeah.

00:05:07,300	S3:
And it's a requirement of, um. It's one of the requirements to site plan approval.

00:05:11,100	S1:
And if I understand where this is, it's right on that corner.

So. 00:05:16,029	S3:
Yeah. Maple and topsail.

00:05:17,430	S1:
Yeah. Um, okay. Thank you. Anybody else? Anybody else on the board? Have a quick question for Margaret before we turn over to the applicant.

00:05:29,129	S1:
I can't see all the hands necessarily without taking a second. Nope. All right.

Um. 00:05:36,829	S1:
Trying to find you. Christopher Vance, is that you? Would you like.

00:05:40,529	S4:
Me? Yes. Thank you.

00:05:41,829	S1:
Take the floor for a moment.

00:05:43,569	S4:
Uh, absolutely. Um, do I have the ability to share my screen?

00:05:49,769	S1:
Margaret. Can you

00:05:53,269	S1:
hear Chris scream?

00:05:58,199	S4:
And I'll introduce myself by that. I get permission there, but I'm Chris Vance with Vance time Architects. Business address of 85. Sam. Phones overdrive. Um, we also have, uh, Mike and Adriana, uh, of when I'm cornerstone or when I'm Corner Realty. And then also, um, our civil engineer, Peter Blaisdell is also on the call to address any questions that come up as we go through the project.

00:06:24,529	S1:
Thank you.

00:06:26,829	S4:
Um, I still don't have the ability to screen share.

00:06:34,470	S1:
Margaret.

00:06:35,129	S3:
You get that? Chris I just hit the loud.

00:06:37,970	S4:
Oh, I got it now. Yep.

Perfect. 00:06:43,930	S1:
Oh.

00:06:48,230	S4:
Uh. All right. Are you.

00:06:52,629	S2:
We can see it.

Yep. 00:06:54,129	S4:
Yep. Okay. All right. Great. Um, yeah. So I'll, uh, I'll give you a little bit of orientation to the site and then, um, walk through the proposed project and the site improvements that we are planning. Um, but as Ann had described, it is at the corner of Maple Street and Topsfield Road. Um, so there is a light at this intersection. Um, currently it's a one story brick and masonry framed building. Um, you guys probably know there's, uh, Winfree chocolates is one of the tenants. And also the New Town liquor store is one of the tenants as well, in the back portion of the building. Uh, currently is a real estate license or real estate office. Um, so that's where the proposed additions will be placed.

00:07:47,870	S4:
So here's the existing condition site plan. It's on a 0.95 acre lot. There's currently 34 parking spaces that are quite underutilized. I have some pictures that I took through different points of the day to look at how many cars are actually occupying the site, and the trips that are taken throughout some of the peak hours. But here's Maple Street, here's Topsfield Road, this is where the light is. Um, the site has two, uh, two entrances, one off of Maple Street and one off of Topsfield Road. So they have two large curb cuts. Um, deliveries currently take place in the rear of the building here on the southern end of the site, where there's also two portable, um, dumpsters. That's where trash is picked up. So deliveries in trash and take place on the southern part of the site. Um, it's a little hard to see, but here on the, um, the west side, uh, is the parking area. There are a couple of parking spaces along the corner at Topsfield Road and Maple, and also along the east side of the site. Uh, currently there are a few, um, parking lot lights. Uh, we are proposing to add some additional ones for safety. Um, and I'll get into that in a minute. Um, and there's also the existing septic system, which, um, we did have to increase for the new use, which if you have some questions on I can we can jump into it or Peter can address those, but they have been reviewed and approved by Greg and the Board of Health.

00:09:29,169	S4:
Um, so here are a couple of, uh, site photos. So, uh, this one's looking from Maple Street, uh, to the rear loading area. So you can see here there's one of the portable dumpsters. These two back doors over deliveries take place, and they have access into the tenant spaces. This view is from the corner. So here's the town Liquors and Winfrey's chocolate. Um, you can also see that there's an existing utility pole that actually cuts through the soffit of the roof. Um, this is proposed to be removed. And a new pad mounted transformer. Um, on the corner is going to be placed. National grid is currently working through that. Um, so this condition will no longer exist once that that work takes place. Um, here's another view looking from Topsfield Road. So Town Liquors and Winfrey's chocolate. Um, this view over here on the left is where the proposed addition is going to go. Um, these flags are actually the corners of that addition. So you can see kind of the extent of the the new footprint. Um, and again, this is another view looking towards the parking lot towards the west. And these flags are where the proposed addition is going to go. Um, and again the site. The neighbors are pretty far set back from the site. You can see it's pretty heavily vegetated around the parking area. Um, so it has really good screening. So, you know, the the disrupt, this is going to be very minimal. Um, especially with the as the traffic study shows, there will be some increase in trips per day for cars. Um, and then these are some photos I took. Uh, so this is looking at um, these top photos are looking around lunchtime. Um, so you can see the extent of cars that are parked in the lot. You can see a delivery truck here, but most of the cars parked close to the front entry doors, which are along the corner of Topsfield Road and Maple, um, you can see a couple of cars fill over in the back lot, but it's really underutilized. Even at 530 in the evening, you can see there's barely any cars. And when police actually frequent this lot, I think the most, uh, they're currently all sitting there. Um, but you can see in this photo.

00:11:44,299	S1:
I happen that at Easter, it's pretty busy, but the lot is still not completely full.

00:11:50,769	S4:
Yeah.

00:11:51,370	S1:
Easter being the the the high point of the candy season and.

00:11:55,570	S4:
Yeah. And Winfrey's.

00:11:58,669	S4:
Yeah. Um, absolutely. So this is the proposed site plan. So the shaded area here is the extension of the, um, pizza restaurant. So it's about 1400 square feet. Um, we will be renovating some of the interior space, about 800ft² of that, um, to make the entire, uh, tenant space for the pizza restaurant. Um, we did do some slight modifications to the site here with the parking area. Um, the actual, uh, parking count didn't change. We still have 34 spaces. Um, and we've also added a van accessible space where the entry of the new, uh, pizza restaurant will be. And then we have a couple of compact parking spaces here. Um, this also shows the extent that the septic system, um, needs to be modified. We are adding a, um, grease trap, so there'll be a 1500 gallon grease trap out in the parking lot. Um, we're upgrading the existing, um, septic tank from 2000 to 2500. And then we have to add a couple more runs to the leach field.

00:13:09,970	S4:
Um, this is the photometric study that we had done, um, to make sure that all of the new site lighting is, um, dark sky compliant and also won't spill off of the site. Um, it's a little hard to see in this slide, but all of these little dots are a lumen count. Um, so we've strategically picked lights and directed them so that they'll be zero, uh, cut off at the property lines. Um, so we're proposing that there'll be six new six foot tall parking lot lights that are going to be throughout this rear parking, um, parking lot. Um, and we're also going to leave the existing one that's pole mounted here on the front on the corner of Topsfield Road and Maple. Um, we are going to have soffit lighting, which are these DL lights here, which is basically a continuation of what exists on the current building itself. So there's a large soffit and there's lights that runs underneath it. So we'll continue those lights under the front of the new restaurant. Um, and they're also going to have some motion activated lights, which again, are just replacements of what are there now, uh, for safety, especially as employee employees bring out, um, trash at night that they can load into the dumpsters. These these will pop on to provide some safety lighting. And then we're we're proposing a couple of wall sconces at the front entrance of the the building.

00:14:37,399	S4:
Quickly. I know this is this is kind of jumping into the floor plan, but this is the extent of the restaurant additions. So here's the front entrance. This is the new van accessible parking spot. There will be a curb cut with a slight ramp here that leads to the front door. So there'll be a six inch curve for the rest of the parking spots, but there will be a curb cut here. The restaurant does have to comply with may be, which the Massachusetts Architectural Access Board, we've designed it to provide amenities and meet the architectural access Board. Uh criteria, uh, accessible toilet rooms, unobstructed paths throughout the restaurant and retail space.

00:15:23,500	S4:
Um, these these are the elevations. So this would be the front elevation of the restaurant. Um, this is a corner, a glass corner where there's some seating. There's going to be 14 seats in the restaurant. It's really geared towards takeout, but there will be some spots that you can wait. Uh, grab a slice or a sandwich and sit and finish it in the restaurant. There'll be this flame over the front entrance, and I'll jump into the specifics of the signage in a minute. But there will be a continuation of the mansard parapet that's going to get replace with some metal roofing and use similar materials that are existing on the building now.

00:16:03,799	S4:
So these are a couple of renderings. So here's that that glass corner where there's going to be some signage. This is facing Topsfield Road. Well both of these are facing towards Topsfield Road. There'll be a little illuminated flame above the entry door. And again this roof structure is just really a continuation of the existing roof so that the height doesn't change. And the general massing is similar with the materials.

00:16:31,399	S4:
So we are we are asking for a special permit for the signage. Um, so this is, uh, some details of those signs. So if we look at the corner here versus Mike's Pizzeria and Grill, there will be two signs that are about 20in tall by 51.5in wide. Um, that would be on each corner of the building there. Um, and then this is just a rendering showing that they will be backlit. So at night they will light up and provide some nice illumination.

00:17:03,700	S4:
Um, and again, this is the flame. It's about 25in tall by 21.5in wide. That will be over the front entrance. And again that will be backlit and illuminated.

00:17:16,400	S4:
Um, and then we're also proposing to add a site sign. Um, these are the details here. So it's about 96in tall to the granite posts. Um, it will have room for the other two tenants. Um, signs as well. So Winfrey's and Towne Liquors, and then Mike's Pizzeria and Grill logo here with some gooseneck lighting to illuminate it at night. And this is a rendering of what it would look like. Um, so I can jump. Sorry to jump back, but, um, basically the site sign will be right located in this area here. Um, so there's a couple of boulders that are on the site now. That would be right between those two boulders. Um, and it's also ten feet back from the property line, uh, for the public highway requirements.

00:18:16,069	S4:
I think that's the end of what I had to go through.

Um. 00:18:22,430	S1:
I have a quick question. You talked a lot about changes you needed to make to the parking area to accommodate septic and grease traps and the like. Um, how much of the existing vegetation would need to be removed to accommodate all of them?

00:18:40,430	S4:
Um, zero. Okay. Uh, yeah. So the the septic now, the leach field and the tank are both under the paved area, so that area will get disturbed. We'll we'll resurface the parking and restrict the parking. Um, but that is all under the paved area here. There will be some disruptions to the vegetation. Um, where we do put the new addition. Um, and then also we are proposing a, um, cultic, um, stormwater infiltration system, uh, which I had the slide of.

00:19:17,529	S1:
Is located where.

00:19:20,829	S4:
Um, yeah. It's right.

00:19:23,069	S7:
I've got it on mine. Chris, if you don't have it, that might have been an earlier one.

00:19:26,230	S4:
Yeah, I think this is the earlier one, but it's basically you guys can see my pointer right?

00:19:32,099	S1:
Yeah.

00:19:32,329	S4:
It's right. Yeah. It's right here. See where it says snow storage. And it says tree stump. It's it's basically right. Right here.

00:19:40,730	S1:
Okay.

00:19:42,029	S4:
Yeah.

00:19:42,369	S1:
And there is vegetation being removed along that property line. Is that right?

00:19:46,630	S4:
Well, it's under the ground. So temporarily. Yes. We'll have to excavate. We put in the cool tech system, which are basically these chambers. Um, and then that, you know, the, the soil and lawn will go back on top of that. And then the, um, downspouts, the leaders from the roof that all drains into this coal tech system so that it can then infiltrate back into the site.

00:20:10,470	S1:
And how far? Because it's very difficult to see. Um, this plan presented this way and be really nice. If we were back in town hall and we could look at it more carefully. Um, how far off the property is that? Is that, um, uh, sort of southeastern corner of the new.

00:20:32,029	S7:
Um, Chris, you stop sharing for a second. I'll, I'll I'll share mine. I've got it on there in color, if that's okay with the board, Margaret.

Specifically. 00:20:42,369	S7:
Okay.

00:20:47,170	S3:
Yeah. You should be able to, um.

00:20:49,529	S2:
Okay.

00:20:52,529	S2:
Just make sure what's in there.

Yeah. 00:20:55,369	S7:
Okay. Everybody can see this.

00:20:58,130	S1:
Not quite yet. There we go.

00:21:00,500	S7:
There we go. Here, let me go up a little bit.

00:21:03,329	S4:
Color is helpful.

00:21:06,430	S7:
Well, Chris, Chris has the architectural flair. I just have a couple of highlighters. That's about it.

Um. 00:21:13,099	S2:
Um.

00:21:15,269	S7:
I think. Was that you an that asked a question?

00:21:18,099	S1:
It was. I just wanted to know what this dimension was down.

Um. 00:21:22,299	S7:
So it's it's it's said about seven. Um, the edge of the edge of the stone is set about seven feet off the property line. Um, we're supposed to keep it ten feet off the building, and we're just trying to keep it. We're just trying to keep the disturbance to a minimum. So we're just trying to, um, sneak it in between the edge of the parking lot and here, um, these these items here, as you can see, those those are trees. So we located the major trees in this area, and then this is roughly the drip edge, um, from, you know, the trees that are behind us. Um, so we're trying to put it in and, you know, there's a stump here. We're trying to put it in an area that's going to, you know, causes a little amount of damage as possible.

00:21:59,470	S1:
And the building itself is it looks like 16, 15 or 16ft off the line. Is that correct?

00:22:06,099	S7:
The building itself? Yeah. The closest corner is about 15 foot. Um, five inches and then 16ft and then back to about 20ft when you get back to the to the proposed cooler.

00:22:16,769	S1:
Which is pretty much what it is now 20ft.

00:22:20,400	S7:
Yeah. It's about, uh, The closest corner here is about 22, right?

00:22:24,470	S1:
Okay. Thank you. That was my question.

00:22:27,269	S7:
Okay.

00:22:28,000	S1:
Um, I know we're going to need to, um, wait for peer review, so, um, I don't know if other members of the board have questions for the applicant.

00:22:38,829	S5:
I just have one. Um, so how much of the new footprint is on, um, not impervious area. I mean, is it most of this already paved where you're building?

00:22:55,000	S7:
Most of it is already paved. Um, so the area here that the the additions going on, I believe right now is, is just lawn area.

00:23:04,000	S5:
Okay.

00:23:05,470	S7:
Um, and, um, I'm sorry if that's your question, Mr.

Passarella. 00:23:10,599	S5:
Yeah. I was just trying to get an idea of how much the increase in impervious area was.

00:23:15,430	S7:
So, um, we're we're going to add a 1400 square foot, um, building the coolers about 160ft². Um, we're actually going to remove some pavement here and some pavement here, but then realign the parking so there is an increase in impervious area on the site. Um, and I know one of the questions came up earlier about peer review for, um, for drainage, that type of thing. And, um, I was one of the things I was going to ask. So I did go through the towns just to try to see if you had, uh, wetland bylaws and, uh, elevation, I'm sorry, regulations. I did look at the planning board's regulations. Um, and I couldn't quite put my finger on exactly what the requirements are for a project of this size. Um, you know, normally if we had, uh, wetland resource areas and that type of thing, we'd have to file a stormwater report with Conservation Commission that would also go to DEP. So the way I approached this was I just tried to keep this as simple as possible. Um, we're adding we're adding a certain amount of impervious area. Therefore, I calculated how much it would it would take to essentially just make it seem that there was no change at all to the site. So. And just to make sure I did that, I actually took one of the downspouts from this section of the existing building, and I put it over here as well. Um, the soils here are very good. They're very, um, uh, this sands and gravels. So I'm not I'm not concerned that the recharge isn't going to be a problem. Um, so the report, the report that I submitted to, um, to your to your board for review. Um, again, it's a very simple one. There's an existing impervious area. There's a proposed impervious area. All the additional impervious area, plus some of the original is going to go right into the ground at a recharge rate. And when we're done, then one second share one other thing.

00:25:16,369	S7:
I'm sorry.

00:25:20,000	S2:
So we find it.

00:25:24,430	S2:
Easier to work. More or less.

00:25:28,069	S7:
I'm sorry about.

00:25:30,000	S2:
That.

00:25:33,569	S2:
This is what I want to apologize.

00:25:37,700	S2:
Okay.

00:25:38,430	S7:
Let me know when you can see this.

00:25:41,529	S4:
Yeah, we got it.

00:25:42,670	S2:
Okay.

00:25:43,430	S7:
So, um, I'm sure you've seen a few drainage reports. So, um, there's always been certain amounts of stormwater runoff for this area. You know, um, 3.1in for the two year storm, 4.5 for the ten year storm, and then about 6.5in for, um, the 100 year storm. DEP has been asking people they're adopting you from under the NOAA 14 Atlas numbers, which are a higher number. So just to make sure that we weren't playing around, I actually ran the site for both existing and proposed condition for the higher numbers, and this is the comparison for what would essentially be leaving the site. So for the two year storm, 1.2 cubic feet per second, the ten year storm 2.7, and the 100 year storm 5.6. By adding the Caltech chambers in to the to the proposed condition. Same thing 1.2 cubic feet per second. No increase, ten year storm, no increase. And then we'd have a slight reduction in the 100 year storm of 0.2 cfs. And again, just remember this is a very small amount of of runoff. Um, any changes less than one cubic feet per second are usually considered de minimis flows. Anyways, um, if you do want to get a peer review consultant to look at this, I don't know exactly what criteria he would be looking at because we didn't have to file with DEP, so it doesn't really require a full stormwater report. Um, I did look at your requirements. I think I covered everything that it requested. Um, again, I haven't been through this process with you, so I apologize. I haven't. I don't remember the last time I did one on one them, so it might be a little learning curve. Um, I would just say if you are going to send this out for peer review, um, I just think you need to be, um, you might have to help them, uh, kind of figure out exactly what the limit of what they're what they're going to review is. Um, I just approached this as we were going to have no increase in the, in the post development rates, which is what's called for in your regulations. I do understand that, um, you know, not everybody on the board is an engineer or that I didn't even know you didn't have a town engineer. So I apologize for that. But, um, it's a very simple design. It's a very simple calculation. We're going to put more into the ground than we're actually adding and make sure that a net zero gain for as far as runoff, um, all of the The nice part about this, too, is that none of the runoff from this is going to head anywhere near Maple Ave or out onto Topsail Road. Everything's going to would be heading back towards the parking lot anyways, but again, all of that's going to be picked is going to be piped directly into the ground.

00:28:30,269	S1:
Thanks. Anyone else on the board have a question? Margaret, do you want to respond to the point about peer review? I do think it's it's we just like to have because we don't have a town engineer. We do like to have someone confirm that the numbers are correct.

00:28:48,099	S3:
Yeah, exactly. Um, this it's not an extensive project. We understand that. But we do want to have someone review it just for accuracy. So I did get a, um.

00:29:01,170	S7:
An have anybody that.

00:29:02,269	S2:
You.

00:29:02,670	S7:
That you go to.

00:29:03,529	S3:
Yeah. We're going to use, um, Bert, uh, I think it's Coby or Cory. A DDT associates.

00:29:10,769	S2:
Degree.

00:29:11,400	S7:
Out of, uh.

00:29:12,230	S2:
Yeah.

Okay. 00:29:13,230	S3:
Um, I have the estimate from them to do the job. It's, um, 2750. So which is which is minimal. Um, typically we're at $5,000 for most of our peer review projects. So, um, we would ask the applicant to just bring a check in next week, and then I can contract with them to do this work, and they'll get started on it right away. Um, it already has the documents. So, um, I did have a question. And so currently, Chris. Is there a signage or a large sign in front of the building now with the names of the, uh, the stores that are there?

00:29:52,670	S4:
Uh, no, I got I can share my screen.

00:29:55,299	S3:
I wasn't sure if there was one. I know they had, um, there had some sign issues on that building for a little while. Um, so.

00:30:04,430	S4:
Okay, you can see here that the only signs are the two that are on the roof line.

00:30:09,930	S3:
Okay, so there is no other large sign in front of the building.

Okay. 00:30:13,500	S4:
No, I think previously there were some temporary signs, but those have all been removed.

00:30:18,900	S3:
Okay. Yeah, that was my question.

00:30:25,000	S4:
Yeah. And that that that Caltex system is basically going to go right here in this photo.

00:30:34,200	S4:
You can see that.

00:30:36,329	S1:
Okay. Well if we if, if, if you have finished your presentation and Margaret you don't have anything further, I wonder if there's anyone on uh, the zoom. I see a lot of folks on the zoom. If there's anyone on the zoom who, wearing a public hearing, would like to, um, speak to this.

00:30:58,369	S1:
Um, if you if you can. Uh, you're on as l can you please state your name and your address and. Sure. Just let us know.

Elizabeth. 00:31:08,400	S8:
Elizabeth. Isaac. I live on Topsfield Road, just a few doors down from this proposed site. I'm wondering if anybody else on the zoom call does. Um, I. We've lived here for since 2008. So 17 years. And since that time we have seen the traffic increase significantly. Um, I guess, uh, for, for whatever reasons, uh, it's just it's just increased. It's a residential area. It's always been residential. The only businesses on 97, as far as I know, from Topsfield all the way into Beverly, um, are the rich Dale drug or former Rich Dale drug, which is now the liquor store and Winfrey's. And we kind of like it that way because, uh, we do now get traffic at all hours of the night. And our concern, um, will be, of course, to have a traffic report done, because now, if we have a pizza place open at all hours of the week and on weekends. The traffic is just going to be worse. Um, including foot traffic. Um, from, uh, from from the neighboring streets. So we have some concern there. And we're wondering if the planning board has is going to do any study or look into this. Someone mentioned at the beginning of the meeting, and someone questioned whether it was necessary if, uh, if it's possible to do it. We would appreciate that being done before anything is, um, is finalized.

00:32:35,700	S3:
Uh, uh, and we did study, uh, we got a traffic and that's available. Um, uh, Elizabeth, I can, uh, it'll be available on the town's website. So under on the planning board page, we, we updated it the other day, but I don't think the traffic report got put on there, so I'll put that. Make sure that gets put on.

00:32:57,099	S1:
Thank you. Yeah. And the peer reviewer is going to take a look at that too.

Okay. 00:33:03,269	S3:
Um, they don't do traffic.

Um. 00:33:06,430	S5:
What does the traffic study say?

00:33:08,769	S1:
Okay. Yeah. Walk us through it, please.

00:33:10,769	S3:
Let me hold on. Let me see.

00:33:12,230	S1:
Because it came in late, so.

Yeah. 00:33:17,829	S3:
Let me let me just open it if you want to give me one second.

00:33:26,000	S1:
Um.

00:33:26,799	S3:
The traffic generation report. Okay.

Um. 00:33:32,400	S3:
Okay.

00:33:33,130	S1:
Um, maybe Christopher, while she's looking for it, you could talk to us about the expected hours for this business. Do you know that?

00:33:40,430	S4:
Yeah, I do. Yes. Um, so they're going to be operating from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., and it's going to be Monday through Saturday. So they'll be closed on Sundays. So it's not if they're not operating late. Um, so it's just 9 to 9.

00:34:02,400	S9:
Um, so and currently.

00:34:03,470	S3:
The the liquor store is open 6 a.m. to 10 p.m.. Those are the hours of operation of that liquor store.

00:34:10,630	S7:
I think they also serve coffee in the morning.

00:34:13,199	S1:
Maybe milk. They sell milk.

00:34:15,800	S2:
Maybe.

00:34:16,099	S7:
Maybe to start off with some milk. Yeah. Before you get something else.

00:34:20,699	S3:
Yeah. So this is the traffic study. Let me just go down to the, um.

00:34:26,630	S7:
So that's that's the current condition. The, um, uh, based on the it, uh, numbers. That's that's that.

00:34:33,869	S2:
Would.

00:34:34,070	S1:
Be one is the current.

00:34:36,170	S3:
All right. And then down to.

00:34:37,469	S1:
The and and look. Can I before you roll to table two. Um, the the unit three general office building. Are those offices going to stay or are they being replaced by the pizzeria.

00:34:51,670	S4:
That's being replaced?

00:34:53,369	S1:
Okay. So we can.

00:34:54,699	S7:
Folding. It's folding into the office space is going to be incorporated into the into the.

00:34:58,900	S1:
That's that's what I had assumed from the floor plan. But I just want to make sure that we're comparing apples to apples when we get to the next one.

Yeah. 00:35:06,329	S3:
Is the real estate office going to still be there?

00:35:09,699	S1:
Apparently.

00:35:10,929	S4:
Yeah, it's going to be a new it's a it's a new tenant space. Yeah. Yeah. It used to be a hair salon. So the actual septic calculations were based on a hair salon.

00:35:24,800	S3:
So this is the new trip generation?

00:35:32,329	S7:
Yes. So? So as you can imagine, it would. It is an increase for a restaurant for for fast food.

00:35:42,469	S1:
And unit two discount supermarket. Is that increase.

00:35:49,570	S7:
No. So it's that would be Winfrey's. So unfortunately um not every business has an exact, Um, traffic generation.

00:36:00,170	S10:
They don't have one for fudge shop. Yeah.

Yeah. 00:36:04,030	S1:
And and and and I'm just going to say Winfrey's is not discounted.

00:36:09,269	S4:
No, no.

00:36:10,469	S10:
I don't think.

00:36:10,969	S7:
It's I don't think it's cheap. We have one here in Middleton as well. Um so yeah we try to match them up as good as possible. The convenience market uh, pretty much covered the liquor store because it does both. The closest that I could find was. Yeah. Um, in doing some searches online for, like, a confectionary or that, that that type of thing was, was a discount supermarket. Um, and then, uh, the fast food restaurant without drive is, is pretty common. So, um, yeah, there will be an increase in the, in the, in the peak morning. In the peak evening. Um, but I just just want to, um, remind everybody that this is a, uh, this is classified as an urban, rural road, uh, with a signalized intersection right there. Um, it gets a lot of trips per day. Um, so you'd have to. You'd have to really increase the amount of trips out of this a lot more in order to, um, you know, change the level of service. But, um, that being said, this is just a very basic report based on the it this is this is not based on any traffic counts or that or that type of thing. So it's just a very basic, um, report of the uses now and the uses that we're going to be. Just so you can see the change.

00:37:24,530	S10:
Is.

00:37:24,769	S5:
Trip generation. The only thing that you have in this report.

00:37:29,300	S7:
Yes.

00:37:30,099	S5:
Okay. So there's nothing about wait time or anything like that, right.

00:37:33,199	S7:
Oh no. No, that, that's that's above my pay grade.

00:37:36,269	S10:
Um, so the.

00:37:38,269	S5:
The can you go back to the table we were just looking at. So this category for a unit three fast food, is this just a model that you've, you've pulled. And so this would be expected for a unit three fast food a typical as.

00:37:55,570	S10:
Opposed to typical.

00:37:57,099	S7:
A typical fast food restaurant with a with a square footage of 2250ft² would have those results for AMP, and based on the chart and.

00:38:06,230	S10:
The.

Okay. 00:38:07,400	S5:
It's not it's not specifically geared to this proposal, right. It's just a category.

00:38:13,429	S10:
Yes.

00:38:14,130	S5:
Okay.

00:38:14,400	S1:
That's why we have the discount supermarket for you guys.

00:38:18,800	S10:
Yeah.

00:38:19,730	S4:
Yeah. Based on category and square footage.

00:38:22,369	S5:
Is there any planned breakfast food service for the Pizzeria Grill?

00:38:31,329	S4:
Uh, I would have to defer to Mike and Adriana.

00:38:34,329	S10:
But we can speak.

00:38:35,670	S11:
On that. Um, we go ahead.

00:38:39,230	S12:
Mike.

00:38:40,769	S10:
What was the question? If it's going to be any.

00:38:42,599	S4:
No, no, if you can have breakfast.

00:38:44,469	S11:
But people do, you know, for school or before work, they like to come in and, um, we're, they're prepping anyways at that time. So the door is open. If they want to get a cold sub or if they want to grab something for work, you know. But we won't have breakfast items specifically.

00:39:01,300	S5:
Okay.

00:39:03,570	S1:
Thank you.

00:39:12,269	S1:
Elizabeth, I can't see your face on the on my screen because there's so many people. But I wonder if you have had your questions answered, at least at this point.

00:39:21,670	S8:
At this point? At this point, I have. Yeah. Thank you I appreciate it.

00:39:25,000	S1:
Yeah. You're welcome. Is there anyone else on the call who wants to speak to this? We'll have we're going to continue the hearing so there'll be another opportunity. But if you're waiting to speak, I'd like to give you the chance.

Um. 00:39:46,429	S1:
I'm scrolling through all the little Hollywood squares here, and I'm not seeing any hands up.

00:39:51,230	S3:
Yeah, I don't see any hands up either.

In. 00:39:53,269	S1:
So, Margaret, we you.

00:39:54,369	S10:
Talk about wait in on the traffic.

00:39:57,570	S1:
David.

Yes. 00:39:59,530	S10:
So.

00:40:02,429	S10:
I don't know, maybe I don't want to over look. First of all, I want to peer review on the pizza. Okay? I'm excited about some good pizza here for when I'm. So let's not discount that, all right? And there's no fee for this open.

Okay. 00:40:14,670	S1:
We just opened a park right down the street.

00:40:16,869	S10:
So I mean, it's a couple coming together nicely, but, um, you know, and and, um, to Elizabeth's point, um, I hear you. I think we all hear you on the traffic. It is 97. Um, but still, traffic is traffic. As somebody who lives on one a, I'll speak to that. Um, you know, my my vision, it may be a ways down the road is that we have this is a this is a prime location that's accessible by non motor vehicle Means there are paths from downtown all the way out here or village, whatever you want to call it, down to the new park, etc. and so to the extent anyone that would feel so community minded to add a bike rack or something that would allow for kids to come up on bikes or people to get there without using cars, I would think that would be just tremendous and hopefully it gets used. I'm still waiting for the bike racks that we were promised at, uh, Cedar Pond. I don't know that they ever got put in, but that's neither here nor there. My only concern that that's not here nor there for this, um, my only concern here is like, I do think there's gonna. And this is a comment. This is not a criticism. It's just something for people to think about. I do think that there's going to be more people coming to this site, and I think there's going to be quite a few more people coming to this site, and that's a good thing. For one, that's not necessarily a bad thing if it's handled correctly. But the driveway for this is fairly close to the light. And my concern is particularly at peak hours 4 to 6.

00:42:08,070	S10:
There's going to be are people knocking? We don't want people blocking 97. We don't want I guess people are just waiting in the parking lot to get out on the 97. A left turn out of there could be a real dicey move, particularly if it's backed up and someone tries to cut across 97 to go left and can't necessarily see what's coming their way up the road. I don't I I'm not a traffic engineer. I don't know how to deal with that. I don't know if that makes sense what I just said, but I expect this will get a lot of excitement because I know I'm excited and I know others that I've spoken to are excited as well, and I just want to think about it. If there's anything that we can do here, hey, we got to talk to the police department about what they think about this. I mean, is it can we tolerate a mandatory right turn out of there?

00:43:05,300	S7:
So. I'm sorry.

00:43:07,300	S1:
Oh, sorry. I was kind of to Margaret to comment on that. What the police department has said about this so far.

00:43:14,869	S3:
So we got a comment from the police chief saying that they may need, um, a police detail during construction, but that was prior to getting the trip generation report. I sent that to the chief this past just the other day. I haven't heard back from him.

00:43:34,030	S1:
So perhaps talking to him again once. Once we're through with this hearing tonight, uh, about, um, how to make sure that the the flow around this building and in and out on to 97. Yeah doesn't because it it what I was seeing from the new construction is it's not likely that you can go around the building behind it once that is there. I mean you can't now either, but um, but if there's an if, if there's a way of managing the circulation so that you don't have the problems that David is identifying, I think that would be useful to know. And it would be interesting to get the police departments take on.

00:44:19,730	S7:
I, um.

00:44:20,730	S1:
Did somebody somebody noted that they spend a lot of time in that lot now. So I'm sure they have a thought. Um, yes. Go ahead.

00:44:30,170	S7:
So it's about, uh, just to answer Mr. Anderson's question. So if you were coming out and taking a right, obviously you'd be looking right at the the intersection. It's about 110ft from where a car would be exiting to about where the crosswalk is. So, um. However, if you were to take a left hand turn. Um, you do have a couple of things, obviously. I mean, excuse me. We've we've all, um, been driving for quite a while. So anybody that's coming towards you coming from, uh, coming from the left, it's well over 300 to 400ft of, of distance that you can see up the road. So you don't have anybody blind coming at you that way. The only problem could be someone coming across the intersection if you were to take a left hand turn. However, like I said, um, it's a signalized intersection, so, you know, I'm sure that, um, I guess I live in Billerica. We just redid, uh, route three a because, um, we, uh, sometimes lead the league in people, um, smacking into each other. Um, but you have to make sure I'd say that you're you're timing your exit from the building appropriately with the lights, which are right there. Otherwise, could there be an accident? There certainly could be. We didn't look into the London Police Department to see what their accident records are here. Um, as I said, this is a very simple just a, um, uh, pre and post, just traffic generation, uh, report. It's not a, uh, it's not an in-depth study by any means, but you can certainly feel free to ask the police department whatever they would like.

00:46:04,130	S10:
I hear what you're saying. I'm not sure what you quoted, but if, uh, I don't know who's in control of the screen, it doesn't really matter that. Right? Curb cut. Uh, on the east side of the property or northeast side of the property. That can't be more than 60ft from the intersection. And, oh, you know, up top, I'm talking about up top. I'm talking about right there. Yeah, that's got to be 60ft to the crosswalk. And if someone these people, you know, they're coming out a little for dinner, it's dinner time. They want to get home. So they're going to come out here. And then that backs up in the left turn lane. And they're either going to block 197 or they're going to try and get over into that left turn lane. That's going to be a tough situation. Then they get frustrated and then they whip around the front of the building to exit onto main to try and take a left. Then we got kids coming out of out of out of town liquor, which was an interesting decision for a name whipping in front of town liquor. Uh, that raises some concerns to me. So do we put, um, soft barriers on the left turn lane so that people understand you're not you're not coming out of this property onto 97 and taking a left. That's not an option. You're going to be taking a right, and you're going to be going through the intersection, and you're taking a right on main. And it may need to be the same way. I mean, I'm not I'm on Maple. I'm not a traffic engineer. I'm just saying I've been on this road on cars, bikes and on foot. And for the enthusiasm I have for this business, I really do think it's a big deal. Seriously, I'm not saying it's a pizzeria on a whim. It's a big deal. We got to prepare for this. Or at least let's hear what the experts say. Whether it's, you know, police chief or whatever. Let's talk to somebody who kind of sees these things and understands it, and think about some solutions that will keep this safe for everybody. That's that's all I'm trying to do is make sure that this doesn't turn into a mess for for these folks that are investing a ton of money in this and for the town that's that's really excited to receive them.

00:48:17,429	S8:
Elizabeth Isaac here again, I would support David's David's comment because right now we have backups. We live, we live. Oh, I don't know. I can't say how many yards, but we live four houses down from this intersection, um, going south toward Beverly. So. Yeah. Right there. So, um, well, actually, just right. Right there. Next. Not that big one, but right next to it on the right side. No. There you go. And so we have backups that far away. Um, in the afternoon starting at 330 in the afternoon on the weekday. And that's coming both ways because you've got backups also on cherry for people exiting, coming out from one day exiting, going over to Danvers, um, going home that way and, um, both ways. Traffic is backed up both ways. So that is going to be an issue. Um, there's no, uh, there's no right on red right in front of there where that hand is coming from. Maple taking a right on Topsfield. There's no right on red. Um, and somebody turning left is going to have trouble, um, making that left hand turn if they're going north on 97 to Topsfield. So I think a view by traffic when a place would be at a good idea.

00:49:41,230	S3:
Um, one other area that I'm concerned about is people turning left into the building. Into the property from here, where if if this light is green, you know, these people are going to start backing up if they can't get around them. You know, like there's there's a an extra lane here for people turning left onto Cherry Street. But then people who want to turn left into this restaurant may get, you know, they may cause a little back up here. I don't know whether we want to think about opening this lane to two ways, um, to get them off. But I will have the police look at this for sure. And then if we need further review, we can, you know, if.

00:50:27,769	S1:
I would, I would also want wonder whether. I mean, we've been talking about this as though we're absolutely limited to just that one entrance where it's located now, as opposed to an in and and out. Whereas where the inn might be a little further away from the intersection.

00:50:44,699	S10:
Well, I looked at that. I mean, there's a utility pole there in a tree, and I don't know what that does to options. Certainly if we were to move, if it were possible to move it down toward that end, that would assist with this whole conversation. To the extent that's, you know, interesting to the applicant, what's I just.

00:51:06,099	S5:
What's on the log to the left, though.

00:51:08,329	S7:
We hear two things, Mr. Anderson. One, you can't you can't just you need to get MassDOT approval to add entrances and second.

00:51:19,030	S5:
State highway, right? Yeah. It is.

Yeah. 00:51:22,329	S7:
So and and secondly, that's where the septic system is. And I don't think we want to be adding. Yes. Or exiting with the septic system.

00:51:28,570	S10:
I see.

00:51:29,130	S5:
I see Dave I agree with you Margaret, I agree. We obviously have to wait to hear from the police department what they say, but and I miss Isaac, I agree that the traffic I, I'm aware the traffic is pretty bad right now, but at certain times during the day, however, I have less concerns about this because it's not like you're you're dropping in a business where there is no business existing. Right? There are two existing businesses here. There's rich sales, has been there or was there for for years and years. Right. So I think from what we saw on the traffic generation report, that and this is no slight on the future business, but these are going to be de minimis strip increases. Um, so I think we just need to wait to hear from police on this.

00:52:21,730	S3:
Sounds good.

00:52:22,929	S10:
Well, and please understand I'm excited about this. I think we've identified this as a site that can have increased utility to the town, and a restaurant is certainly one of those options. So I'm in favor of this. I just want to make sure that it goes over smoothly and everyone's on board with it. So let's just look at it.

00:52:45,269	S1:
Yeah, I think that's great.

00:52:46,329	S10:
Find solutions.

Yeah. 00:52:47,869	S7:
Great. I have a traffic. Does one of them have a traffic safety officer?

00:52:52,929	S1:
Well, we have our police department who regularly look at development for us and tell us what they think. So Margaret, do you want to talk about the process going forward? Because I think we have to ask for a continuance of the public hearing.

Yep. 00:53:06,429	S3:
We would ask the applicant to, um, approve a continuance of the public hearing, and then you would vote to continue it to the next meeting in December and request that the peer review funds be dropped off next week so that I can get started on it.

00:53:21,769	S5:
I think we should talk about the peer review first before we just jump to that. Okay. Um, because I'm, I'm a little unclear on what we're asking to have peer reviewed.

00:53:31,400	S3:
Yeah, I can show you that, Dan. Hold on.

00:53:37,730	S3:
There it is.

00:53:41,500	S3:
Okay, so this is a copy of what they would do.

Um. 00:53:48,599	S3:
They would review the, um.

00:53:54,130	S5:
All of this is from our peer reviewer, right?

00:53:56,699	S3:
Yes.

00:53:57,269	S5:
Yep. But what are we what are we think needs peer review here?

00:54:01,000	S3:
So the site plan itself shows this new stormwater system. Um, we can have them review for the parking, um, the stormwater, whether those calculations, what they what they mean. Um, again, it's not a heavy lift.

Um. 00:54:19,400	S1:
Yeah. My, my my consideration about this would be that. So in my experience, when I was doing this, which I don't anymore, we would send it down to the town engineer and say, can you just look at this and confirm that all the numbers are correct? But when I must have a town engineer, so we have to send it out to someone else to confirm the numbers are correct, which is not to cast aspersions on anyone. Um, it's just to be, you know, do our due diligence as, as as we should on development like this.

00:54:51,829	S5:
No, I understand. And normally, I wouldn't have an issue with this. I just feel like we're reflexively saying, here's a permit application. There are numbers. We need to peer review this where the only thing I think needs peer review might be drainage. Um, I didn't I didn't see anything else in this report that would require peer review. I mean, we can certainly count the number of parking spots and look at our regulations, right? So and I'm just I'm raising this from I don't think we should just so easily toss a $3,000 expense on a special permit application that might not require it. Um, if it's if if all we're worried about is the drainage, then let's limit it to the. Maybe that's a lesser cost for the basically all.

00:55:40,869	S1:
That's what it is that.

00:55:43,800	S4:
Yeah. I mean, I did speak with Mike Novak who who typically does this for, um, when I'm who he said he would be willing to take a look at it as well.

00:55:54,070	S3:
Mike. Mike Novak doesn't review do peer review for when he's on the Conservation Commission.

00:56:01,400	S4:
Right. He can look at the stormwater calques.

00:56:04,170	S5:
Well, that means that.

00:56:05,199	S3:
You guys, if you don't want to have a peer reviewed, that's fine. We can go with what?

00:56:08,769	S5:
No, no, I just think the board should discuss it, that's all. And I did. Chris, I have a question for you. There's no there's no wetland on the property, right? No, no, no.

Okay. 00:56:20,869	S3:
I I'm just not comfortable giving you guys, um, reviewing this myself and saying that these numbers are accurate and that the stormwater system is going to work. Um, but it's up to you.

00:56:34,469	S1:
I do think it would be helpful to you. The scope here was put together by the peer reviewer, correct?

00:56:41,570	S3:
Yeah.

00:56:42,429	S1:
Right. So this item three, a traffic review will be performed by others. Yep. Yeah. Not a separate peer review.

No. 00:56:51,099	S3:
No, I didn't think we needed a peer review for the traffic report because the police department can look at that. But if you think that's even more.

00:56:58,630	S1:
I just want to be clear that this 2750 is the only additional cost.

00:57:06,570	S3:
Yep.

00:57:07,369	S7:
That's it. Margaret, can you scroll down? I'm just wondering how many and again, I, I get peer reviewed all the time. So I certainly don't take any type of affront to this. That's that's part of my job. Um, I'm just curious, like how many hours he's budgeting to this because this this, um, I did this report. Um, you know, probably in under a day. Um, I, I, you know, with the amount that, again, I don't know how much he's charging an hour. If he's charging, if he's charging two days to do this, I think that's they have a minimum.

00:57:43,000	S3:
There's a four hour.

Right. 00:57:45,699	S7:
So okay.

00:57:46,929	S3:
Then an hour, four hour minimum.

00:57:48,570	S7:
No, that's the that's the that's a survey crew. Um, so I'm just looking to see.

00:57:56,030	S3:
This is a this is typically what we do. We send it out, they send it back to us and tell us this is something. He has the plans. He's looked at them, and he can tell you how long it will take. And this is what he's come back with for how long it will take him to review it.

00:58:12,869	S3:
If you don't do it, if the board doesn't want this done, that's fine. I just want to make sure you understand that we don't have any other way to review these numbers.

00:58:22,800	S7:
So can you scroll down just a little bit?

00:58:26,800	S1:
I think where you're putting a new drainage system close to a property line, it's a good idea to have it peer reviewed. Personally, if if I were the number one.

00:58:41,030	S7:
My answer is Mike is his own neighbor.

00:58:43,230	S5:
Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, and it's it's a it's a call text system, right. So it's it's basically it's just a big.

00:58:50,000	S1:
Flop and play I know, but.

00:58:51,800	S5:
Yeah. And I mean, it's not like we don't have any certifications before us, right? We have a stamped plan from a professional engineer who's vouching for these numbers. It's just if if our if our only concern is, are the drainage numbers correct? Which it sounds to me like that's the only thing where peer reviewing, um, is $3,000 a reasonable charge for that.

00:59:22,329	S1:
Mission, say an engineer.

00:59:25,630	S7:
I can tell you right now that this this. That's about twice as much as it took me to generate the report, because it's very simple. All I, all I did was take the amount of impervious area that we were taking it. And again, like, like Mr. Pascrell just said, this is in obviously um, and knows a little bit about this, is that, that there eventually plastic dry walls that could put it on the ground. This is not a subdivision. This is not a, you know, a huge residential, um, development or a cluster or, um, a 40 B or anything like this. It's, it's a 1400 square foot building on a 40 000 acre lot with parking lot. None of that's changing.

01:00:04,269	S1:
With existing impervious surface. I, I'm wondering, Margaret, if you can explain. So how does.

01:00:12,429	S1:
Is the 27 outside envelope number and if it doesn't all get spent, it gets returned to the developer, the proponent?

01:00:22,929	S3:
Yeah.

01:00:23,400	S1:
We asked. How does that work?

01:00:25,000	S3:
Fund? Yeah. They they submit the funds, and then we spend it as the engineer sends us bills, and if they don't spend it all, we return the extra to the applicant. It's doubtful that they wouldn't use up all of these funds, though.

01:00:41,199	S13:
Does the. So see the. This is five pages total. Is there a line item cost down lower anywhere? Where are you saying the specific number of hours spent as opposed to what they charge by the hour?

01:00:56,599	S3:
No, no, we don't usually get that. They they don't estimate the number of hours it's going to take them. They look at the project as a whole and give us an estimate that way.

01:01:07,570	S5:
I mean, based on the description of work, sorry, based on the description of work, it looks like a lot of this time is going to be providing the reports to us, not actually, you know, the review and that.

01:01:22,070	S14:
Yeah, they'll they'll have to do the.

01:01:23,429	S3:
Reports and attend a meeting.

01:01:27,769	S3:
They'll come to your next meeting with their report and explain to you what they found.

01:01:36,030	S5:
So from what I've heard, I would suggest this discussion among the board that we consider maybe we allocate a lesser sum for peer review, and we don't require everything that they're proposing here. We just get confirmation that the numbers work.

01:01:54,630	S1:
That's basically item 1.1. And um, some sort of summary of the findings.

01:02:03,900	S3:
I yeah, I don't, I.

01:02:06,429	S11:
Can I just ask a question because this is obviously our first time doing this, but I'm under the impression that us hiring an engineer to to construct this, um, stormwater and to actually do his research on what we require for the stormwater that, you know, this peer review is something new to, you know, just forgive me for being for asking the question, but, you know, the the the money. It's a big, big thing. That's a lot of money. And we've already paid our engineer to, you know, come up with this system process. Like he said, it's negligible. It's just a small little footprint that we're actually going a little bit more than what would be needed. Um, it's just, you know, that 2700 is is we're funding this out of our own. All the preliminaries are coming out of pocket right now for us. So that's like a huge, um, you know, it might seem small in the scope of this large project, but we are funding out of pocket all this preliminary stuff, and that's like a huge expense that hasn't been allocated for us yet. And it's.

01:03:17,369	S1:
Yeah.

01:03:17,730	S11:
And it's something that's questionable that maybe we don't need it. We would, you know, that would be huge to just, you know.

01:03:23,929	S1:
I think I, I Adriana, I think if I can interrupt, I think what you're hearing from the board is a very similar feeling about this, um, that we would like a little bit more specifics justifying the amount of money. Um, and, you know, I think there's, there's understandable concern about the cost of development and Wenham and, and so if this is a place where we can think about trying to alleviate some of that. On the other hand, Wenham doesn't have a town engineer. And, you know, if we did, we would just hand the plans to them and it would cost you nothing. Um, I do think we have a responsibility just to confirm the numbers are correct, whether it costs $700 or not? I can't say, but but I do think there is. You know, we really ought to be confident. And again, it doesn't cast aspersions on anybody. I'm confident, you know, that will come up with nothing problematic. But there is this tension about the numbers and where they came from. I wonder if we can ask Margaret for a breakdown and maybe get this number down a little bit.

01:04:37,500	S11:
Right? Or have or possibly have them perform the work, put in the hours or, you know, give, give an estimate and then.

01:04:45,630	S14:
I.

01:04:45,869	S3:
Can't I can't have a peer review or do any work until the funds are actually with the town. It's mass general law, right? It doesn't allow me to contract.

01:04:55,530	S1:
It's not it's it's not the same thing as hiring.

01:04:58,570	S14:
So I can't I can't have.

01:05:00,469	S3:
Them do something and then pay them later.

01:05:02,300	S1:
But you can't ask him before we start to get a breakdown. That's a little bit, you know, more detailed.

01:05:10,199	S3:
Yeah, I can do.

01:05:10,800	S1:
On this one, particularly since it is does seem pretty minimal. He's not doing anything on traffic. He's not doing anything on the septic system. That's that's the Board of Health. It's basically just confirming that everything's as it.

01:05:26,530	S3:
And yeah, if the board's comfortable with what this engineer has submitted, you don't need to require a peer review. Um, you know, it's it's entirely up to you. You don't have to require it.

01:05:38,469	S1:
We're hearing you say, Margaret, as the staff, that you would feel more comfortable if there were a pair of you. And that was the conversation we started off with. So I certainly think the case, I wonder if we can just go back to the peer reviewer, and I'm sorry this has to be a burden on you, but go back to the peer reviewer and just say, can you itemize a little bit more carefully so that this seems a little expensive to us?

01:06:02,929	S3:
So then if he does that, this won't be brought back to you until the next meeting in December. And then then.

01:06:10,199	S1:
We just need to authorize. I think the fact of peer review, we don't need to authorize the dollars and cents of peer review. Is that correct?

01:06:19,429	S3:
Yeah. Yep. We can do that. And then I can work with the the applicant to, um, get that number down.

01:06:27,170	S5:
Or can I make a suggestion? Yeah. Because I, I think the applicant is going to want to move this process along and not wait for another month for us to figure out what we're going to pay the peer reviewer. So I would I would make a motion that we authorize up to $1,000 for peer review at this point, just to confirm the drainage numbers that we're concerned about. And either it gets done within that budget or it doesn't, and then we can come back. And if it's more, we can request more.

01:06:58,570	S3:
Okay. Um, so I would have to have the applicant just give me those funds.

01:07:02,769	S5:
Well, I think the board would have to vote.

01:07:05,400	S1:
I would, um, second that motion. Dan, I think that's a good idea.

01:07:09,800	S5:
Okay.

01:07:11,170	S3:
All right. So you want to authorize up to $1,000 a period?

01:07:14,329	S1:
We have there's a motion on the floor, and it's been seconded. I think we need to vote.

01:07:21,130	S1:
Okay. All in favor? Weeks as I.

01:07:23,599	S5:
Pass.

I. 01:07:26,929	S10:
Anderson, I.

01:07:31,099	S10:
Where's Scott?

01:07:32,170	S1:
Scott.

01:07:33,900	S13:
Uh, I said I'm having issues here.

01:07:36,900	S1:
Audio issues. Okay. Thank you. Okay. So that's that's that. Margaret. And now I think we need it.

01:07:44,670	S3:
Is the applicant willing to give us $1,000 so I can. Or do you want me to just talk to the peer reviewer and see what they can do for $1,000?

01:07:53,369	S11:
Yeah. So we can we. That's more manageable. You know, we can, um. Is it is it the office is closed tomorrow or.

01:08:02,469	S3:
Yeah, we're closed tomorrow. Let me. Let me talk.

01:08:05,030	S11:
You can reach out to them and see what you know. If they can just do whatever the board suggested with the strange stormwater. And then we could drop the check Monday if that's the case.

01:08:16,170	S1:
Right. And it's up to $1,000 if they can. If you can impress upon them that this is a small business, and if they could do it for less, it would be we would be thrilled. It doesn't seem like a big amount of work to us.

So. 01:08:29,630	S3:
All right, I will I will check with them.

01:08:31,899	S7:
Well, the other thing too is, um, you know, do you really need them to show up at a meeting? Because usually a night meeting, um, everybody's charging way more than a normal standard hour.

Right. 01:08:42,699	S3:
If they give us what they give.

01:08:44,000	S7:
Us back from them, a letter might suffice.

01:08:46,430	S3:
Yep. Yeah, we could do that. I'm sure they could just give us a letter, and then I would bring it to the board.

01:08:51,300	S1:
Yes. I'm guessing that's where they will cut out that additional amount of money.

01:08:56,670	S5:
I'd be happy with that email.

01:08:58,670	S1:
Yeah.

01:09:01,130	S1:
Okay. Um, okay.

01:09:03,270	S10:
Emoji. Emoji. Either thumbs up or thumbs down.

01:09:06,800	S5:
Well something's signed.

01:09:08,600	S1:
We do need to move on. We have more items on the agenda. Um, we need a continuance of this hearing, and we need to vote on the application in our next meeting, so. Well, hopefully our next meeting. Um, so, Margaret, do you want to work on that?

01:09:27,699	S3:
December 11th. If you want to make a motion to continue to December 11th. Um, does the applicant give permission for the board to continue?

01:09:34,569	S1:
I think we need permission. Yeah, that's.

01:09:39,369	S7:
Yes, yes, they give permission.

01:09:41,670	S3:
All right.

01:09:41,930	S1:
Great.

Yes. 01:09:43,000	S3:
So it's, uh, Thursday, December 11th.

01:09:45,130	S1:
You need to get an email or something like that in writing. Right, Margaret?

01:09:49,000	S3:
Yeah, I'll. I'll work with them with that.

01:09:51,069	S1:
Thank you. All right, so then we I need a motion to continue the public hearing. Um, with the permission of the applicant to December 11th at 7 p.m..

01:10:01,970	S13:
I'll make a motion to continue the public hearing until December 11th at 7 p.m..

01:10:08,869	S5:
Second.

01:10:10,470	S1:
All in favor? Week says I Pasko I.

01:10:14,600	S10:
Anderson, I remember I.

01:10:17,470	S1:
Okay. Thank you so much.

01:10:19,529	S7:
Thank you, everybody.

01:10:20,970	S1:
And thank you to all the folks who have been waiting patiently online for the rest of the agenda.

01:10:26,329	S4:
Thank you so much.

01:10:29,770	S1:
All right. So the next the next item is in the administrative calendar. Um, a discussion with Kelly Kelleher and Sander Sadowski, the real estate firm representing the academy at Penguin Hall on possible uses of that property. Um, Margaret, do you want to kick this off or do you want to turn it over to the, uh, folks from Kelleher.

01:10:54,729	S3:
Here? Yeah. Um, I believe, Eve. Um.

Andrew? 01:10:58,699	S15:
Yeah. I'm here.

Margaret. 01:11:00,100	S3:
Yeah. Andrew is here from, um, the real estate firm representing, um, the sale of this property, so I think. Yeah. Andrew Sherman, if you. I didn't receive anything from them, you know, as far as information goes. So they just wanted to meet with you informally to talk about what's what's happening there and get some feedback, I think.

01:11:22,170	S5:
Yeah. Andrew, before you get started, let me just. Let me just make a disclosure. Um, I do not believe this rises to any sort of conflict. This is an informal presentation to us, but I am an attorney. I have filed a claim on behalf of a creditor in this bankruptcy proceeding. Somebody who is a former staff member. So I just want that. Okay. On the record.

01:11:46,270	S15:
Okay, so I will I will be short, uh, myself filled up.

01:11:51,000	S1:
Okay. And before you start, just because we're being recorded, we just state your name again for the record, so that that person transcribing will have all the detail she needs. Thank you.

01:12:02,729	S15:
Absolutely. So my name is Andrew Sherman, I'm with Kelliher and we are the brokerage firm representing the school in the in the bankruptcy sale, myself, along with Phil Simone and Ross miner Jim Humphrey, who couldn't make the call. Uh, the meeting tonight, uh, are helping the school, uh, market the site. Also with us is, um, Christopher Condon, who is the bankruptcy attorney, uh, for this process. So, um, I think I do myself a disservice by talking any longer. I think I'm going to kick it over to Chris. Chris is far more experienced in these, uh, processes and these types of sales. So Chris is going to help. Just elaborate on the process and kind of the, the, the future. Um, the next steps of the of the site.

01:13:00,699	S16:
I, uh, my name is Chris Condon. Um, I'm a bankruptcy attorney, uh, at Bowditch and Dewey. I've been doing bankruptcy cases all over New England for 25 years. Obviously, Bowditch is an old firm, uh, Mr. Pescarolo. I don't have any problem with you being here today or being on the board. Um, I like to thank you for hosting us. This was my idea. So if anybody wants to blame somebody for us appearing, it was my idea. Uh, I just thought it would be useful, uh, given the circumstances, to just introduce myself. Um. And I know you've been dealing with some of the people at Kelleher Sadowski and talking to them and talking to some of the people who are looking at the site. I don't have anything particularly formal or anything. Uh, I'm not a real estate attorney. I don't know anything about, um, planning or anything like that, but I have done a lot of similar real estate bankruptcy cases like this. Obviously the school, you know, through some unfortunate circumstances, uh, had to file for bankruptcy in order to try to, um, protect some of the value. It has a lot of creditors, uh, including some parents, you know, or families who had, uh, paid tuition to the school, uh, including some employees who unfortunately, at the end, uh, were unable, you know, could not be paid because there wasn't sufficient funds to pay them. And, um, you know, it's my job to sort of come into these situations and try to make something, um, you know, good out of something unfortunate. And, um, you know, I, I, um, personally have had some success, I believe, in the sort of bankruptcy process, and, uh, I, um, like I said, I just wanted to, uh, introduce myself. Uh, obviously, Bowditch is an old Massachusetts firm. Obviously. Kelleher. Sadowski is a Massachusetts real estate firm, and we're trying to really help the people who are the creditors here who are. Some of them are local people, some of them less local, but all, you know, all relatively local people and try to maximize the value of the site to try to pay people. Um, we would posit that the alternative is a foreclosure by the principal lender who, uh, you know, not that this is illegal or anything, but is an entity who purchased the debt from the from the other lender in order to try to, you know, foreclose and or maximize the value. So, you know, we obviously commence the bankruptcy to try to, uh, again, uh, you know, get as much money to the creditors as possible, which is really what our goal is here. Um, I don't know if anybody has any experience in bankruptcy sales. Uh, but I just again wanted to introduce myself. We have, uh, a very accomplished, uh, brokerage firm helping us market the property. Um, and, you know, we have a lot of sophisticated developers looking at the site. I think probably, uh, as I think everybody could guess, they want to take advantage of the particular zoning for the site. I think it's the most likely scenario for a purchaser. Uh, we don't know who the purchaser is going to be yet. Um, but there's some unique circumstances. Uh, I think given the bankruptcy and I just, uh, that people, um, that we may need to, uh, try to accelerate the process as much as possible. But again, I think we're trying to seek a good result for the community and the town, um, and the creditors at all at the same time. So I guess my message to you is, again, to introduce myself and say that I'm sort of here to try to help you. Uh, help us if you. If you will. And so I didn't know if anybody had any questions. Uh, you can contact me now. You talk to me now or contact me later or whatever you want. Um, but I'm just here to make myself available to you.

01:17:00,670	S1:
Yeah. I think this board is interested in the land use aspects of what happens to the to the site, and, uh, sure. Sort of hoping that somebody might have some presentation of some kind about what's being considered, um, or is premature.

01:17:18,670	S16:
Yeah. I'm sorry that I again, we don't have that yet. I just given the timing of everything that was going on, I just sort of wanted to get on the agenda. And I know the Pats are playing tonight, and I don't want to keep everybody's time. I just wanted to keep it short. And just as I said, just say we're working on it. We're here and I'm willing to communicate with you and as is Kelleher and everyone else.

01:17:42,000	S1:
Okay. Are there questions from board members?

01:17:44,869	S10:
Well, how can we help you?

01:17:46,670	S15:
We we hope it's a patch win for everyone. And the.

01:17:49,930	S16:
Site. That's right.

01:17:50,729	S1:
We can't. We can't do anything about that.

01:17:53,899	S16:
No. So all I want to say, we.

01:17:56,869	S17:
Yeah. Would need a little more information.

01:17:58,770	S1:
To figure out what we're doing. I think you can see from the agenda that this whole area, geographically in Wenham is one of particular interest. Right now, the Select board is thinking about what to do. That's been an iron rail study done. And there's some thoughts about what's happening there. So all of the planning board, you know, with our scope is land use and how things are, um, how development occurs. And, you know, so, so for, for us at this point, it's good to know what the process is. Um, several of us are attorneys, so we have at least a fleeting understanding of from our law school days of what bankruptcy process is, um, but, you know, we really will engage when it's a little clearer about what's going to happen with the property from the perspective of the buyer.

Um. 01:18:54,800	S16:
Yeah. I, I don't know the answer to that question. I appreciate that. Um, like I said, I, I wasn't sure where we're going to be in the process, and I just sort of wanted to, um.

01:19:04,670	S17:
Right.

01:19:05,100	S1:
And I appreciate that early is better.

01:19:08,069	S16:
So that's that's where we are. We have more for you later. That's why we don't have any more materials for you than, um, than I think some of the stuff that you that you've already seen at the, um, but uh, again, um, you know where to find me if something comes up and, um, we're going to, you know, obviously keep the board involved as early and as often as possible.

01:19:31,270	S17:
Thank you.

01:19:32,970	S1:
Anybody else on the board have any questions for Mister Canaan or Mister Sherman, I guess, or anyone else? Us. Yeah. Well, thank you for actually.

01:19:45,470	S10:
Can I say.

01:19:46,170	S17:
Go ahead, David?

01:19:47,270	S10:
Well, I would just say that, uh, the site itself has an interesting, um, classification by the iPod. Um, but it's also an extremely, um, strategic site. It has tremendous access relevant to Wenham. Uh, it's adjacent to the sports fields and iron rail, and something's going on there. It's next to a site that is, um, severely underutilized. I mean, the Sisters of Notre Dame. I don't know what their long term plans are. Um, I see potential in this area. And as I sit here personally, the things that get me excited are people who see potential, you know, the most community potential here. That is possible. And that's pretty abstract. And this whole thing is abstract right now. But I'll just share that perspective in my head.

01:20:52,199	S16:
Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately what you're going to see is, um, as I said, some, uh, a proposal from a very, um, sophisticated, uh, developer, um, and I, you know, I don't know exactly what that proposal is yet, but those are the people who are interested in the site. Um, it's generated a significant amount of interest, and, um, I I've been there, I like it. I agree with you. It is a unique access point, just given its, you know, proximity to the highway and everything else. Uh, but yet is a relatively secluded and, um, beautiful. So, uh, anyway, I think what you're going to see from us is, is something, um, again, sophisticated, developed, uh, you know, and for you to consider.

01:21:40,300	S3:
Um, and I do have a question, Mr. Conan. Do you have any sense of when these. This property might change hands?

01:21:47,670	S16:
Well, I, I think, uh, they're, I don't because of the permitting issues. So, uh, it depends on.

01:21:57,029	S3:
What do you mean when you say permitting issues?

01:21:59,500	S16:
Well, it depends on whether or not the, uh, prospective buyer would close, uh, with or without permits.

01:22:06,970	S3:
So they would want their permits from the town before they close.

01:22:10,399	S16:
They would.

01:22:10,770	S3:
They may possibly enter into purchase and sale.

01:22:13,630	S16:
Right. Well, I think they would enter into a purchase sale agreement, but there would be contingencies on closing.

Mhm. 01:22:19,569	S3:
Okay.

01:22:25,270	S1:
Thank you. That's helpful.

01:22:28,029	S16:
All right. Thank you very much again for hosting us. I don't want to take anyone more time. Um, thanks, but.

01:22:34,600	S1:
Well, you're welcome to stay on if you want to hear the next conversation is about iron rail, so you're good. All right. And thank you for sitting through the the first hour.

01:22:44,869	S16:
No thank you.

01:22:47,130	S18:
Nice to meet you all.

01:22:48,729	S1:
Nice to meet.

01:22:49,270	S15:
You. Thank you.

01:22:53,869	S1:
So the next two items are really together. The Grapevine Road Essex Street area. And you know, the recommendations. This this this is completely accurate as I think at this point, the Select board hasn't made a recommendation for Iron Rail. They've, um, recommended more study. So. But Margaret, maybe you can have.

Yeah. 01:23:19,229	S3:
I put this on the agenda before the select board met last week. Um, they just decided to create a working working group, um, to review the, um, the study and then make recommendations.

01:23:36,369	S13:
Seems pretty disappointing. I feel like this is just avoidance of decision making at this point. We have commission studies. I mean, I was on the finance committee. They did a whole financial study. They did use study. We have the Iron Rail Commission. I don't I know it's not within our purview, but I'm not it's not like what what is the outcome? Are they are they saying that because of this new committee they have to make a decision now or, you know.

01:24:05,930	S3:
I think that's what their goal is, that this new committee will come back with the final decision about what? What the town wants to do about it.

01:24:15,869	S1:
I mean, if if I'm if I'm trying to find the silver lining here, it seems to me that with the Penguin Hall property.

01:24:25,000	S1:
With the question about what happens to that, um, may be something that needs to be considered, You know, alongside what happens to iron rail. Um, and so having those going parallel is not a bad thing. Um, is there. Is there any suggestion that a planning board member would sit on this commission? Because, yeah.

01:24:57,770	S3:
I think.

01:24:58,300	S1:
Their perspective on, you know, the master plan and just the conversation we've been having in the last, what, half an hour is a good illustration that, uh, you know, this is a kind of a pivotal spot in the community. And, and the board really ought to have a representative.

01:25:22,529	S3:
I yeah, from what I heard at their meeting the other night, they they would, um, I think they would appreciate a planning board member sitting in on that. Does anyone interested? I can let the select board.

01:25:35,199	S1:
I mean, I would, I I'm actually kind of interested in this one unless someone else wants to put their hand up. I don't want to.

01:25:43,270	S3:
Um, I do wonder.

01:25:44,470	S1:
And we're we're we're one member short now, which we will get to discuss in a minute, but. So email Flotus.

01:25:52,300	S3:
On the call. Kate. Um, her name was brought up at that meeting also. Kate, I don't know if you're. Are you there? Can you, um. Do you did you talk to Steve at all about what he thinks the Select Board wants to do with this group?

01:26:08,500	S19:
Yes, I think it's more of like a kind of finalizing the plan. I'm sorry. Everybody, I'm. I have a head cold, but, um, it's more of finalizing the plan, so. Kind of.

01:26:22,500	S19:
Um, taking all of the the feasibility study that was done, um, the Iron Rail Commission's recommendations, and then this working group would kind of just finalize everything they gave until May to do this. And so it wouldn't be something that would be going, um, to April town meeting or anything like that. I think it would be the next town meeting after that. That would happen. And absolutely the planning board would be involved in that.

01:26:53,470	S1:
Did they talk about membership and how many people and all of that.

01:26:57,270	S19:
They did a little bit, but then they ultimately said that Steve Paulose would be the decision maker.

01:27:02,970	S1:
Okay.

01:27:03,630	S5:
And and I think if you're interested in I think it's the chair's prerogative.

So. 01:27:09,670	S1:
Well, I guess maybe.

01:27:12,829	S5:
I.

01:27:13,500	S1:
Was just like really, really competent a bit to do this.

01:27:17,069	S13:
I am doing it.

01:27:20,399	S1:
I will do it. Um, can you let Steve know that we would like to have a member?

01:27:27,670	S19:
Absolutely. And I, I think that makes.

01:27:30,329	S1:
Or whatever it's calling itself.

01:27:31,930	S19:
Yeah, I think that makes sense. And I think that was kind of what was implied at the Select board meeting last time. So absolutely.

01:27:39,970	S1:
Thank you.

01:27:40,899	S3:
Yeah, we'll let him know.

01:27:44,199	S3:
Thanks. Thank you Kate.

01:27:46,270	S1:
So I don't know what more is to be said about the Grapevine Essex Street area. Um, at this point, it do do folks want to have an open ended conversation about that, or do we want to decide that we have expressed interest enough and concern enough about what happens there, that we have done our our job for tonight on that item, on the agenda.

01:28:15,300	S5:
I'm comfortable moving on.

01:28:22,369	S10:
I am too, I would just say, and I don't know if I said this in a prior meeting, but I invite anybody to take a zoom out on the parcel and look more broadly at the parcels that surround it and the opportunities there. There's a lot going on in that area. Uh, there's some upland uphill upland properties. There's a lot. And, uh, you know, the fact that that parcels, you know, in a distressed position is a little bit unfortunate. As it may, the timing may preclude the opportunity to be more creative and more expansive in terms of the development opportunity. But it is what it is. And there's there is a lot going on there. And you could imagine it being kind of an eastern hub for the one community if it were done right.

01:29:17,329	S5:
Yeah. Can I just ask a terminology question, Dave?

01:29:20,199	S10:
Um, yes, sir.

01:29:21,229	S5:
As you're using the grapevine Grapevine Road slash Essex Street area, is it? So if we sort of used iron rail as the center and drew a half mile radius, is that what we're talking about roughly?

01:29:33,770	S10:
Yeah. I mean, you know, the Beverley line is what. You know, half a mile down or whatever.

01:29:39,829	S5:
And I just wasn't sure what grapevines a long road. So yeah.

01:29:43,369	S1:
No, I think it's that corner and it's the Penguin Hall piece and it's the, um.

01:29:48,569	S13:
The Sisters of Notre Dame.

01:29:50,229	S1:
Soccer fields and the sisters.

01:29:53,069	S5:
Yeah, I got it.

01:29:54,069	S1:
And and there's a meditation center there.

01:29:58,729	S10:
And, you know, I'm not talking about anybody, the land. But I'll just say the parcel to the west of that is a 45 acre uphill parcel with one single family home on it. Maybe it's not 45 acres, but it's massive.

01:30:15,100	S20:
You want to have the map?

01:30:17,270	S1:
There's also a there's also a house right in the corner of, uh, grapevine and 22, Like just between the sisters. There's the sisters. And then there's kind of a, I think a creek and then a house right on the corner.

01:30:33,470	S4:
Right.

01:30:35,329	S1:
So but yeah, it's the whole region. And the question is what's the what's the plan there? Um, and there's quite a lot of wetland, as you can see, if you look at the, um, the Dodson report that it's not as big a parcel developer, if you think about the, the developable area, it's not as big as it looks, the iron rail portion and there's.

01:31:04,399	S10:
Oh no.

Yeah. 01:31:06,199	S1:
Right. So and the I think the other thing that I haven't heard discussed is the cemetery and whether or not the current limits on the cemetery is where they expect that to end or whether they have an expansion plan. So I don't know enough about that either at this point, but

01:31:27,270	S1:
I will say that looking at the the study, it was sort of like, you can do this or you can do that. And the I, I was thinking, well, you could do a little of this and a little of that and it's not mutually exclusive, but I guess we'll see where that goes. Um, as we start talking about it.

01:31:50,569	S20:
Okay.

01:31:55,899	S1:
Um, okay.

01:32:01,930	S1:
So the.

01:32:06,130	S1:
You've got the your finger on the highlighted thing, but I think we still have the subdivision. Yeah. Regulations to just a quick update there would be.

01:32:14,470	S20:
Okay.

Yep. 01:32:15,270	S3:
Um, so we had our check in meeting with Ines associates the other day. Um, they've got all of your comments. They've taken those all in. Um, they have the the whole document in word now. Uh, it took them a little while to do that. They so they figure by December 2nd, they should have gone through all of the focus groups comments. They're starting the focus groups this week. They had the I think they had the first one today. I sat in on one with, um, the developers for 47 Maple Street. Um, and then they've they're scheduling everyone else over the next week or so. Um, so they figured December 2nd, they'll have gone through all of the comments. They'd like to have their first draft to you by the week of December 8th through the 15th, and then they'll come to your January 8th meeting, um, with the draft to discuss it and get your comments. And then they would like all of your comments do around January 14th. But all these dates will.

01:33:16,399	S20:
Be.

01:33:16,569	S1:
That's a very fast turnaround at the holiday but.

01:33:19,869	S20:
No, no.

01:33:20,300	S3:
Yeah. It's after after the holidays.

01:33:22,500	S20:
We'll.

01:33:23,399	S1:
Yeah. Okay. I wonder if you, um. There's there's another holiday. The king holiday is in there too. I wonder if you would back up a step and talk about who who's on these peer review groups?

01:33:36,300	S20:
Focus groups? Yeah.

01:33:38,199	S1:
Sorry. Um, my head is still in.

01:33:40,430	S20:
Yeah.

01:33:40,869	S3:
A lot of staff, all the staff, people from all the different departments, as well as representatives from the different boards and committees. We have someone from conservation. There is someone from the Climate Action Group. Um, they I think they reach out to Zeba.

01:33:57,630	S1:
Um, and you said they were meeting with developers.

That's. 01:34:00,699	S20:
Yeah, we had.

01:34:02,399	S3:
Um, the two developers from 47 Maple Street met with them today and went, you know, just in as associates has questions that they're asking them about their experience with, um, subdivision development in Wenham. What kinds of things they they felt worked and what what were difficult for them. So they went through those. We also have asked Peter Gordo to meet with them, and I believe he's doing he's going to be meeting with them sometime next week.

01:34:33,729	S1:
Great. Thank you.

01:34:34,800	S20:
Yeah.

01:34:35,369	S3:
So those focus groups are happening online, um, virtually on zoom.

01:34:42,399	S3:
And I think they're also talking about setting up a, um, a place where the staff can go and meet with them. They're going to set up for a day either in town hall or at the library and staff. They'll just schedule staff to come in and actually talk to them.

01:35:01,329	S20:
Right. Yeah.

And. 01:35:05,300	S1:
Um, okay, so if unless somebody has a question about that, let's move on to the highlighted 47 Maple Street request.

01:35:16,630	S3:
So I.

01:35:17,270	S20:
Can see these are.

01:35:18,229	S1:
Two requests as I understand it. One is the irrigation system and the other is an error of some kind.

01:35:24,569	S20:
Yeah.

01:35:25,100	S3:
So we got an email from the an attorney who represents the buyer of lot one, which is the existing farmhouse that's been renovated. They put an irrigation system in the developer put one in. Um, the new buyer was concerned whether that irrigation system should be connected to town water supply, which they had done. So we got confirmation that, yes, this lot is subject to the planning board's decision and it should not be tied to the town water, the irrigation system. The developer has been notified of that, and they're going to work that out with the buyer to have they're going to have it removed from the town water supply and either put a well, uh, the developer will, I think most likely will be paying for the well to put in, um, for the irrigation system. So that's not an issue anymore. They're they're all been notified that they do have to comply with the decision. The, um, the attorney sent us an has some concern about some of the language in the decision that refers to a the covenant. Um, I wasn't quite sure what they meant, but we sent it to Robyn to review it. She hasn't gotten back to us, but she does have that. So she'll look at that and let us know whether the affidavit could be signed by the board and whether they're implying there's a Scrivener, as ever, in the, um, the decision. So, uh, but Robin has it, she's looking at it and she'll let us know.

01:36:57,430	S1:
And and that's on a completely different point to this.

01:37:01,670	S20:
It has nothing to do with irrigation, right? No.

01:37:06,729	S1:
Okay. Well, uh.

01:37:10,069	S10:
Can we amend something like that by affidavit? Doesn't have to be. I mean, wouldn't it have to be an amendment?

01:37:17,199	S20:
I think if it's a if it's just.

01:37:18,970	S3:
A Scrivener error, can it just be amended by an affidavit? I don't think.

01:37:24,930	S20:
It has to go through the.

01:37:25,770	S3:
Whole process of amending the decision.

01:37:28,729	S5:
Probably the affidavit is probably fine.

01:37:32,000	S20:
Yeah.

01:37:32,270	S5:
Well one would one.

01:37:33,600	S1:
Would want to know precisely what it was. It's kind of hard to.

01:37:36,729	S5:
I think it was just a like we called the surety by the wrong name, I think.

01:37:40,729	S20:
Yeah.

01:37:41,199	S3:
Yeah, we called it.

01:37:42,470	S1:
Oh, is that right?

01:37:43,770	S20:
Yeah.

Yeah. 01:37:45,270	S3:
So I'll, I'll get that, um, response from Robin and I'll get that to you.

01:37:51,430	S20:
Yeah.

01:37:52,569	S1:
Thank you. All right. Last item is meeting minutes.

01:37:59,029	S3:
Do you want me to bring them up?

01:38:01,000	S1:
Sure.

01:38:01,970	S20:
Okay.

01:38:03,000	S3:
So we did get the two, uh, red line minutes from.

01:38:07,100	S20:
Uh, from the clerk.

01:38:08,329	S1:
Thank you.

01:38:09,699	S13:
Yeah, I think Dave did one of these because I wasn't at the meeting.

01:38:13,100	S20:
Yeah. That's right.

01:38:14,470	S13:
All the credit.

01:38:16,800	S20:
All right. So I had.

01:38:19,770	S5:
I had no issues with October 9th. I had one question about October 27th.

01:38:24,869	S20:
All right.

01:38:25,170	S3:
Let me let me just open them both. Hold on. Okay. And then.

01:38:34,029	S20:
Share.

01:38:38,430	S3:
All right. I'll share the ten nine. You see those?

01:38:47,229	S5:
Yep.

01:39:02,170	S3:
Did you have a particular place stand that you.

01:39:05,430	S5:
I'm okay with nine. October 9th.

01:39:08,000	S1:
I appreciate the care taken with these. Thank you.

David. 01:39:13,000	S10:
What I do all day.

01:39:14,729	S5:
A lot of red Dave.

01:39:16,000	S1:
I know.

01:39:16,600	S20:
Yeah.

01:39:18,170	S1:
I do, I do know that. Uh, Margaret, are you going to keep scrolling down?

01:39:27,329	S5:
I'd like to say I miss this exercise, but I can't really say that, so.

01:39:31,300	S20:
Yeah.

01:39:32,899	S5:
Thank you, David Scott.

01:39:40,199	S1:
And we have an additional deadline extension on the zoning amendments. I'm just noticing that.

01:39:50,729	S5:
Yeah. What did they push it to? Uh, December or something?

01:39:53,899	S1:
But we can talk about that in, uh, other matters.

01:39:58,729	S10:
All right. Uh, can I make a motion to approve the minutes of October 9th? nice.

01:40:06,970	S20:
I suppose.

01:40:07,500	S1:
So. Even though you're the headliner.

01:40:09,500	S10:
Well, let's let's let's keep this party going.

01:40:12,100	S1:
Yeah. Yeah. Second. All in favor? Week says I.

01:40:15,600	S5:
Pascal, I.

01:40:16,869	S10:
Anderson, I.

01:40:18,970	S13:
I abstained because I wasn't there.

01:40:20,800	S1:
Right. Okay. Thank you. Um, and then the next one and Dan had an issue with one.

01:40:27,800	S5:
Just a question. On the 27th. Was it the 27th? Is that.

01:40:34,569	S5:
So if you just go down to the end.

01:40:41,869	S1:
Again.

01:40:42,300	S5:
Appreciate up a little bit. Keep going. Keep the care. Yeah. So so this.

01:40:51,270	S20:
Uh.

01:40:52,699	S5:
I just want to read that paragraph.

01:40:54,699	S1:
The Rick Woodland.

01:40:55,869	S5:
Yeah. The limiting the height of average building.

01:40:58,399	S1:
Mhm.

01:41:00,800	S5:
Another regulation.

01:41:06,770	S1:
It's basically massing. He's concerned about massing.

01:41:16,569	S5:
So I just I wasn't sure about the last line there. Um, did we talk about giving the planning Board the authority to adopt design guidelines?

01:41:27,130	S1:
I think I think that the conversation was around whether the planning board has authority to adopt residential design directives, or whether they would be guidelines. I think that's really.

01:41:40,000	S5:
So can we change this to a discussion followed about whether the planning board. So just strike the.

01:41:49,800	S1:
About the planning board's authority to.

01:41:52,869	S5:
Or. Yeah. So and then if you strike regarding include.

01:41:56,800	S1:
About the planning board's authority to.

01:42:01,130	S5:
Well we could you say discussion followed whether the Planning Board has the authority.

01:42:05,529	S1:
Well, I don't think that was the question. I think that I think it was that we have authority. It's just whether it's to issue rules or guidelines.

01:42:16,369	S13:
It was an abstract conversation.

01:42:18,800	S1:
Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't like.

01:42:22,869	S1:
A back and forth about whether we had the authority. It was what form it would take if we did something with design guidelines.

01:42:33,670	S5:
But don't we only have design guideline authority and site plan review?

01:42:38,630	S1:
Well, she she seemed to think that there was.

01:42:41,329	S20:
Yeah. Design guidelines aren't.

01:42:44,869	S3:
Really for single family homes or subdivisions.

01:42:47,729	S20:
Right.

01:42:48,369	S3:
It's more if there's a permit. Yeah. Or if you.

01:42:51,670	S20:
Have.

01:42:51,869	S3:
A downtown district or something.

01:42:53,970	S1:
Which is why it's in the zoning bylaw.

01:42:56,369	S5:
Yeah, right. So that was my memory of this conversation was we talked about what the planning board could and couldn't do. And because I know Rick was concerned about massing in neighborhoods.

Right. 01:43:10,899	S1:
Yeah, he's concerned about that. So he gave the example of the of the, um, little infill that happened on, I guess it was Cedar Street where the houses were not to scale with the right.

01:43:23,829	S5:
And I thought what we discussed was like, we can't really tell somebody to write a design that we.

01:43:30,300	S1:
And and the Inness folks piped up and said, you know, you can you can add those kinds of design guidelines to your zoning bylaw in those areas where you're granting a permit.

01:43:46,569	S3:
Do you want to change this sentence then?

01:43:49,369	S20:
Um.

01:43:52,069	S20:
A.

01:43:56,369	S5:
Couple. Would you say a discussion followed about design guidelines with respect to specific neighborhoods in the.

01:44:05,029	S1:
Yeah. Well it also was about this is a zoning bylaw question, not a subdivision ordinance question.

01:44:12,970	S20:
So yeah.

01:44:17,100	S3:
And what whether.

01:44:19,470	S20:
And.

01:44:20,130	S3:
This was.

01:44:21,170	S20:
How.

01:44:21,229	S5:
About with respect to specific neighborhoods under the purview of zoning.

01:44:25,270	S20:
Okay.

01:44:27,229	S5:
That works.

01:44:28,199	S1:
And I'm not even sure about specific neighborhoods. It makes sense. Sounds like we were targeting a particular.

01:44:33,029	S5:
Yeah, yeah. You're right. How about I.

01:44:34,869	S20:
Would say.

01:44:35,430	S1:
With respect to development requiring special permits under the zoning bylaw.

01:44:42,029	S3:
With respect to development.

01:44:45,800	S20:
Requiring.

01:44:47,000	S1:
And don't say special permits, just say requiring permits under the zoning bylaw.

01:44:52,829	S3:
That's good permitting under the zoning bylaw.

01:44:56,170	S20:
Yeah, okay.

01:44:58,970	S5:
Except do you have an extra eye and permanent.

01:45:01,770	S3:
Yeah. I'll get it.

Um. 01:45:03,770	S20:
So you want me to.

01:45:04,500	S3:
Just period there?

01:45:05,869	S1:
Yes, please. And then nix the rest.

01:45:08,869	S20:
Okay.

01:45:12,670	S5:
And then that was the only concern I had. And I'll move to that. We approve. These is edited. Wait wait.

01:45:20,069	S10:
Wait wait. The next paragraph D Anderson questioned, encouraging. I don't think I questioned encouraging it. Uh, I'd like to say.

01:45:29,430	S20:
I think you.

01:45:30,170	S1:
Championed it. Can I just.

01:45:31,800	S20:
Say.

01:45:33,229	S10:
D Anderson sought clarification about the, uh, ability and scope of of.

01:45:43,630	S20:
Site.

01:45:44,369	S3:
Clarification.

01:45:47,000	S10:
About Planning Board's ability to encourage solar energy systems.

01:45:55,930	S13:
I think the reason it was phrased that way, because it ended up being a discussion about if we promoted, um, zoning or if we promoted solar or required solar on some of those, if it would degrade the quality of the construction within, uh, the homes itself. So I, I think that's why it ended up being worded the way it was, because I remember reading it and I didn't change it because I didn't know what to say.

01:46:27,529	S10:
That's that's okay. I mean, I think that these are all I mean, I just wanted a clarification about its ability to encourage solar energy systems in subdivision developments. I think it's a very nuanced question. Or subdivisions? Yeah.

01:46:44,300	S13:
Now, I like the idea of you looking at these.

01:46:47,670	S1:
You know, need a.

01:46:48,369	S20:
Motion.

01:46:48,699	S10:
Where my wife is going to read these notes, and then I'm going to be sleeping on the couch for two weeks. So I can't have this, in the record.

01:46:55,069	S5:
I renew the motion to approve these minutes.

01:46:59,069	S10:
Second. Anderson.

Second. 01:47:01,029	S1:
All in favor?

01:47:01,970	S13:
We second the motion.

01:47:03,869	S1:
Okay, we got two seconds here, but that should be enough weeks as I go.

01:47:08,770	S10:
I Anderson, I thank you.

01:47:13,069	S1:
All right.

01:47:15,430	S20:
Yeah.

Good. 01:47:17,029	S1:
So the item on the table, that is another item that hadn't come up before this meeting. Well, it did come up since the last meeting, but is we have had a resignation on the board and so really interested in people's thoughts about, um, potential folks we could reach out to who might be interested in being appointed and or running for election. Um, to the planning board. So if you have thoughts also. Um, I think. Well, I think it would be a good thing if we invited Rick Woodland to Guadix meeting and just made a point of appreciating the work he's done. Um, for one thing, he's our representative to the, um.

01:48:11,670	S3:
APC.

01:48:12,770	S1:
Yeah, the the community preservation committee. So that's a fair amount of work. And we're running right into that season. I don't know who among us could step into those shoes at this point. I don't think I can, but, um. Do we? Is he Margaret, do you know, is he going to fill out, you know, sort of complete his term there?

01:48:36,270	S20:
No. For us? No.

01:48:39,029	S1:
So we have no representative on the CPC at present.

01:48:41,930	S3:
And they're asking for one if anybody's interested.

01:48:46,630	S1:
Anyone feel compelled? Scott, you're the finance guy.

01:48:52,170	S13:
Well, I don't know what that role would entail.

01:48:57,270	S20:
Yeah, right.

01:48:58,670	S1:
Unfortunately, at this time of year, quite a lot because all of the applications come in for funding.

01:49:04,800	S20:
Yeah.

01:49:05,029	S1:
What? January.

01:49:06,130	S20:
Right.

01:49:06,529	S3:
They're due December 5th this year.

01:49:08,369	S20:
But they all meet.

01:49:09,329	S1:
In January.

01:49:10,229	S3:
Yeah. And then in January, they meet and go over all the applications. And then they make the recommendations to town meeting. It is it's I don't know if it's a lot of work, but it is definitely work.

01:49:20,529	S13:
It's judged on the what are the merits by which. So like if I as the planning board, am I judging it as a member of the planning board or judging it as a member of that committee, per the committee's guidelines?

01:49:35,369	S3:
Per the committee's guidelines? So the Community Preservation Committee has specific guidelines that they have to follow as to whether projects are eligible for CPC funding. And there's a, um, you know, there's a list and there's guidance from the Community Preservation Coalition from the state. Yeah, it's it's not.

01:49:55,770	S13:
I can do it for now. Can I do it for now and then maybe next year or not do it, depending on how it goes.

01:50:01,329	S1:
We have to. We have to renominate everybody for everything in the beginning of the year anyway.

01:50:06,670	S3:
But I can let them know that you want to do it. And then because it wasn't on the agenda to vote on, you guys can't really vote on it. But, um, so in December you can vote on it. So Scott could be official. If you want to do it then.

01:50:19,899	S20:
Okay.

01:50:20,229	S1:
I think it'd be I mean, he can go. You could go to a meeting. Are they going to meet between now and December? Or do they.

01:50:27,699	S20:
Just basically.

01:50:28,500	S1:
Wait for.

01:50:29,029	S20:
The applications.

01:50:29,930	S1:
To come.

01:50:30,270	S20:
In?

01:50:30,729	S3:
No, they're definitely meeting. I'm just.

01:50:33,100	S20:
Not sure.

01:50:33,670	S1:
I don't know if you want to just sit in on one of those and see what you think.

01:50:38,729	S20:
Yeah, I can tell.

01:50:39,829	S1:
You what.

01:50:40,130	S20:
To do, but.

01:50:42,770	S13:
I mean, I I'll do it. I, you know, there's only four of us, so it's not. I'll do it for now. And then. Worse comes to worst, it's awful. And next year I'll try to pawn her off in one of you. But I'm sure it won't be that bad for.

01:50:56,229	S5:
The new.

01:50:56,529	S13:
Person.

01:50:57,270	S1:
It's very.

01:50:57,670	S13:
Kind.

01:50:58,529	S1:
It's fine that you love it. I mean, Rick loved it. He was. That was his. When I talked to him after he wrote the little email and resigning, I. He said, the thing I'm going to miss the most is my my participation in the Community Preservation Committee. He really loves that work.

01:51:13,729	S3:
He did.

Yep. 01:51:14,729	S5:
He really did get fired up giving us those reports.

01:51:17,229	S1:
He did.

01:51:18,800	S5:
Um, I have a question. So the the appointment for the vacancy, does that mean we'll have two, two elections in the spring?

01:51:27,829	S1:
I have to run again if I'm going to run.

01:51:30,670	S5:
Where.

01:51:31,569	S1:
I've done in 26.

26. 01:51:35,369	S10:
Yeah. Give me three seats up in April.

01:51:38,670	S5:
Why are there three seats up?

01:51:40,130	S13:
I have to run again because there was a clerical error.

01:51:43,630	S5:
I forgot.

Wow. 01:51:45,199	S13:
Yeah.

01:51:46,899	S5:
Okay.

01:51:50,300	S5:
Yeah. All right.

01:51:51,069	S1:
So it could be you could be just. You left the last man selected.

01:51:58,470	S5:
Dave's got five more. Four more years, and I'm.

01:52:01,600	S10:
That's true. I'm like a cockroach. I'm gonna be here after everyone's gone.

01:52:06,270	S3:
Good to know.

01:52:07,670	S5:
So you were gonna say. The other thing was the AG punted again on.

01:52:11,369	S1:
Yeah, yeah, that's the third item that we hadn't considered. And they've punted again. And it's December. What? Margaret.

Sixth. 01:52:18,100	S3:
I think it was the.

01:52:19,829	S5:
I just looked it's I thought it was first.

01:52:21,500	S3:
2020.

01:52:22,199	S5:
First.

01:52:22,630	S1:
Oh Christmas time.

Lovely. 01:52:24,470	S3:
Yeah that's what I said. I said oh that's kaput.

01:52:27,569	S5:
We also missed day of the year.

01:52:29,500	S3:
I reached out to Executive Office of Housing Liberal Communities, and they said they won't review the districts until they get the AG's review.

01:52:39,270	S5:
So that's a good thing. They held us to those deadlines to, you know, pass through a.

01:52:44,569	S1:
To the fire.

01:52:46,500	S3:
I know, thank goodness we got those in on time.

01:52:50,869	S5:
Um.

01:52:51,270	S1:
All right.

01:52:52,899	S5:
I move that we adjourn until December 11th at 7 p.m.. Are we still by zoom?

01:52:58,729	S3:
Well, um, I guess that's up to you. I have other committees that are meeting at the CoA building. Um, if you'd prefer to meet in person, you could do it there. I am really hopeful that we'll be upstairs by then, but I can't guarantee it.

01:53:15,569	S5:
All right. I'd say by zoom.

01:53:16,670	S10:
Then I have a conflict that night at five to goes till 730 or 8. I maybe will get out early and get here. Does anyone else know if they have a conflict that night? It's going to preclude them because then we might have a quorum issue if I can't get out of my other thing.

01:53:35,500	S1:
December 11th.

01:53:37,369	S5:
Yeah, I have a filing deadline, but it should be done before seven.

01:53:44,800	S13:
Think it should be okay.

01:53:47,770	S1:
I I'm fine.

01:53:51,869	S10:
I'll still try and make it, because it sounds like there's gonna be a lot going on.

01:53:54,899	S3:
So you're gonna. Yeah, you're gonna have Topsfield Road, but we could put that on the agenda a little later. Like, we could take some other stuff early if you want. Just so that Dave gives David enough time to get there.

01:54:04,399	S1:
Well and. Well, we have some something more on Penguin Hall by then.

01:54:08,170	S3:
Maybe. I don't know. I'm not sure, though.

01:54:12,170	S1:
It could be a could be busy. I was going to say you could start at 730, but if we're going to have, you know, 2 hours or 3 hours of.

01:54:21,170	S3:
No, that's true. We could start the meeting at 730. I don't know what else is going to be on the agenda on the 11th. I don't have any other projects that I see coming before us before then. So if you want, we could move the have the meeting at 730. David, do you think that would help you?

01:54:39,229	S10:
I won't lie, it would help, but I know it would be an it would impact all of you. So I'm happy to use there's a way.

01:54:47,930	S5:
Yeah, yeah.

01:54:48,899	S10:
That's true. We did uh, and nobody's necessarily pining to go back. I mean, if you all want to shuffle the agenda so that there's a little bit of a buffer at the start and let people know that they'll be coming on closer to 730, that's great. But I am going to try and make the meeting, uh, on time either way.

So. 01:55:08,670	S1:
So why don't we stick with seven and see how that goes? All right, all right, I need a motion to adjourn us. If there's no nothing else that we.

01:55:19,029	S5:
I already did that.

01:55:20,829	S1:
Oh, you did, I missed that second. Do I have a second.

01:55:24,500	S13:
A second.

01:55:25,930	S1:
All right, all in favor week says I.

01:55:28,300	S5:
Pastoral I.

01:55:30,130	S10:
Anderson, I.

01:55:31,630	S13:
Got II.

01:55:32,699	S1:
All right.

01:55:33,069	S5:
Thank you.

01:55:33,630	S1:
Very much.

01:55:34,229	S3:
Thank you.

01:55:34,569	S1:
All good. Your work.

01:55:36,729	S3:
Good night.

01:55:37,470	S1:
Be well. Thank you. Thanksgiving.