00:00:00,670	S1:
Yeah, I was going to say I'm going to open the meeting, um, here at 932 for the Windham, uh, Finance Advisory Committee. I can see in attendance myself, Vince Sprague, the chair, I see Jeff Salad, I see Jared Ward, uh, Robert Paddock, and I see a my computer. I'm not sure who that might be.

00:00:20,730	S2:
I'm thinking that might be a resident. Um, I don't think it's, uh, Danno or, uh, David.

00:00:29,929	S1:
Okay. All right. Well, um, I want to thank the members of the board for getting together as sort of an odd hour. Um, and, uh, we're going to have to be aware that, uh, other folks weren't able to attend. Um, you know, I wanted to, uh, to call this meeting, um, a little at this odd time and especially before, uh, the holidays, to get you guys thinking about, uh, how we're going to approach the, um, the first item on the agenda, which is the the new school. Um, I hope you guys were able to take a look at my, uh, note to the select board, um, sent last week. And then also, um, I went in front of the select board earlier this week to, um, give them the opportunity to ask questions or, you know, have me elaborate on exactly what the need is. Um, this, uh, you know, it seems that, uh, this board is going to be asked to, um, basically, uh, recommend to the select board that they, um, approve or or don't approve the new school project. And, uh, we we have to have a discussion amongst ourselves about exactly how we're going to go do that. Um, what criteria we would use. Um, you know, what is in scope, what is out of scope. And you know, Jeff, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we need to have this, uh, recommendation along with the the recommendation on the the overall budget, the operating budget, which is a separate project. Right. Have that done? I think, by the end of February. Is that right, Jeff?

00:02:14,199	S2:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:02:16,500	S1:
So, uh, we need to discuss, uh, exactly our our methodology and criteria. Um, I will I will stop monologuing in a second, but I just want to make sure that I, uh, discuss, uh, you know, the the email I sent, I'm essentially kind of recommending that we, um, either we take the whole project as it's presented to us. Right. Um, the, the school board has put together and gone through a huge long process, um, to come up with this particular proposal and, uh, you know, while you or I or anybody might have an objection to something, whether it be, you know, the cost of it, or you know that the roof line is inappropriate, or that you don't like the the age group grouping of the school, or what are we going to do with, you know, Booker is going to have half as many kids in it as they do currently. Those sort of things we might have an objection to, you know, we can't propose back to the board on the town meeting. Um, you know, we we approve this design, but we want these changes, right? Um, it's it's an up or down vote on the project. Um, I think that would also help us kind of stay within scope. Uh, you know, and, um, and, sorry, limit the scope of what we're talking about to say, this is what we're going to have to approve as it is, without change or not. Um, and then the second thing that I recommend in my note is that we are a finance advisory committee. Um, we're not a social advisory committee or, uh, aesthetics advisory committee. We're being asked to, uh, kind of opine Financially, whether we, um, uh, you know, approve or don't approve this project. And, um, and so we should try to limit our, um, you know, our process to financial concerns. And so that's what I put in the email. Um, I will pause now and, and, uh, stop monologuing and and look for thoughts from the other members of the board.

00:04:23,199	S3:
Um, finished. Jared. Um, I, I agree 100% with what you just said, but I would just like to add one other comment. A concern I have is that we will be asked to be, you know, amateur construction cost engineers. And so I think we a given has to be that we accept, you know, the, the estimates as presented. In other words, you know, there was some guy who came to the five board meeting, um, the other, you know, when that one last one we had and he's like, well, I can build this for half the amount that it that they're putting in this budget. So we in it in addition to aesthetics and, and the political elements of it, we're not construction cost engineers and we should not be asked to opine on that.

00:05:16,970	S1:
Okay. Yeah, I think that extends into, um, I think the more complicated project of the way I propose this is if if we are weighing two options, do the project as presented with the costs that they've presented or not or not the the if we don't do it, there are expensive kind of consequences. Right. As we try to, uh, you know, not have a new school and instead do the other option, like, what is that best option? Right.

00:05:49,269	S3:
Um, yeah. I mean, the time value of money and the opportunity cost and those kind of things we can obviously weigh in on that. But I just don't want to have somebody in the room start saying, well, how do you know the rebar isn't going to be X instead of Y when you do the thing? And who are you going to choose as a contractor? And you know, that kind of stuff.

Mhm. 00:06:10,600	S4:
You know, the other thing is what other alternatives might we be inclined to consider. I mean you've got either do or don't do. Another more immediate possibility and you've mentioned it is to do it at some time in the future. Is that on the table or are there other alternatives as well that we might be considering.

Mhm. 00:06:33,529	S1:
One of the things I thought about doing is require from the school board to tell us what the alternative is. Right. That is a little bit giving the uh, you know, giving the, the, the sheep to the wolf. But you know, if we don't have a school, new school, what is the alternative? You know, I think it's I think in my note I say, you know, 6 or 7 years, we could they could come back to the town and ask for a new school, you know, and get a state. So basically for 6 to 7 years, what would we be doing? What would we have to maintain? Is there a new roof? Is there, you know, some sort of remediation? Is there modifications that would have to happen to the school? What would they be? Right. And go to the school board and say, you tell us, you know, give us the other scenario. Um, you know, because you and I or anybody else on the board is not going to be able to go and say, you know, we know better than anybody else that a new roof or a new facade or a new driveway or something like that is going to need to come, and they need to come to us and say, these are the capital improvements we would have to have in this no vote, right? But again, they could load up on that list and make it really unpalatable really fast. Um, if you, uh, you know, because I think they're clearly going to be an advocate for new school.

00:07:49,930	S4:
Well, in any case, no, you know, you're doing an analysis long term, eventually any building is going to have to be replaced. So you know, that's going to be part of, I would think, the thinking that needs to go into it, because I was thinking one way of looking at the analytics was to look at the discounted cash flows of the alternatives and see if the new building is more attractive. Uh, uh, before the, uh, the useful life of the existing buildings, uh, occurs and, you know, use that as part of a way of year by year looking at and determining whether it makes sense to build a new building now or wait for some period of time.

00:08:29,870	S1:
Yeah.

00:08:33,500	S1:
Let's see. Uh, Dan, I haven't heard from you, and I still know who the, uh, unnamed participant is, but I don't know. Dan, do you have any thoughts?

00:08:46,299	S5:
Yeah. I apologize for being late, but read your email and understood What I imagined was your intro and agree on what we can or can't opine on, and with what Jared shared. Um, I like the idea of asking for an alternative. I think that's really. Now that you say that, it's almost offensive, that we're not sharing that publicly with the voters because it implies that, you know, it's all or nothing. Either we do this or there's, you know, our our students will have nowhere to go to school or, or something. They're left to imagine what the alternative is. So it's we should get a couple alternatives, not just one, because the one alternative will be horrible, I'm sure. Back to your point about giving the sheep to the wolves. So we should get a couple alternatives. One, that's probably horrible from the school board, but another one that's reasonable.

Um. 00:09:55,200	S5:
Yeah. I don't know. Are we. Are we at this stage in our meeting, sharing our personal opinions on whether we support the school project or not? Or is that a further down the road on the discussions?

00:10:08,570	S1:
Well, I guess I think that if you have specific concerns, I'd like to hear them. I think, um, you know, we are all concerned about our capability of addressing various things like, uh, as, as we were saying before, you know, we're not construction engineers, right? We're going to have to we're uncomfortable, you know, objecting to estimates, right. Not being experts. So I think it's reasonable to do it. I think the question is, um, you know, would you or would you not agree with the concept of, you know, limiting our discussions or our objections to financial concerns? Um, as opposed to, as I mentioned earlier, aesthetic concerns or or political concerns.

00:10:53,299	S5:
Um.

00:10:57,029	S5:
Yeah. I mean, you say that and just in general, I agree. But then now as I try to think about what that means, what are financial concerns? And Jared, you alluded to time value money and uh, I guess, yeah. What what would be the list of financial concerns other than the construction costs being taken at face value, that we might be concerned about implications for tax rates or.

00:11:24,129	S1:
I think that's well within capital.

00:11:25,899	S5:
Yeah. Cash, whatever financial requirements on the town feels like the main thing.

00:11:31,100	S1:
Right? Uh, one of the things I, I worry about, as I mentioned, the sheep and the wolf is, you know, the, the doom and gloom kind of alternative that might be promote, you know, uh, proposed to us, which might say, hey, there's a a risk that the one of these schools is no longer usable, right? For some, you know, medical or or structural reason. Right. And we would be asked to, um, assign a risk quotient to that possibility. Um, and that, that that makes me worried, right. You could argue that is a financial implication, right? Um, but again, I'm I'd have to say, you know, I'm not the person, the assessor or the, you know, the insurance guy that can tell you how likely some of these events might be.

00:12:20,570	S3:
I think in terms of opportunity cost, we're going to be there's going to be a lot of pushback as to whatever alternatives are put forth vs a V the the pot of gold that's coming from the state, um, to build the building. Um, in this I only know what I've heard in the public meetings, but I guess we go to the back of the line for seven years or something if we don't sign up now. And I don't know if anybody's going to. I mean, I accept that as a given, but I, I don't know who's done the due diligence vis a vis, you know, is that really true? And, you know, I, I mean, I who's talked to the state, I haven't I don't know who else has. I assume somebody has.

00:13:07,029	S5:
Right. And and related to that, Jared, was there a vote or I guess it was implied in the last town meetings approval of the overall budget that we would put a noose around our necks for the 2 million bucks that we're putting up front for the work to date, knowing that it might be a sunk cost if we don't move forward. Did we decide that collectively somehow? Because that's offensive also, that we're using that as a kind of, you know, hammer to say to people, well, we'll be out 2 million bucks. My financial self says, I don't care.

00:13:44,500	S1:
That's right. I'm with you on that. Like, from a financial point of view, that's a sunk cost, right? Not not something that we would consider. Right. We're talking about the cash flows from this moment forward. Right. Of do it or don't do it.

00:14:00,299	S5:
Yeah. I mean, technically, yes, but emotionally, that 2 million will be a big, a big part of the calculus.

00:14:08,000	S1:
It's fun being a financial person because we don't get to have emotions.

Right? 00:14:14,470	S5:
Try to manage other people's emotions.

00:14:19,269	S4:
You know, given that we're not analyzing everything, one of the things we can do is if it costs more to go with the building program than to go on with the existing schools, we can tell people what that's going to cost. And, you know, then somebody else can make the trade off of those X dollars. Uh. Uh, is that offset by the benefits in education or whatever else that might be and make that decision? So that's one thing we could do is just provide that information.

00:14:48,669	S1:
So you're saying, I think that if, uh, if our conclusion is that it's more expensive for the next, you know, uh, the discounted cash flows are more expensive with the new school than than keeping the old school at least for seven years. And you might say it's it's up to the to the individual voters to decide if the difference in, you know, the increased cost is worth whatever they think, you know, non-financial benefits might be to the town.

00:15:14,230	S4:
Well, I think it's also up to the select board. Since we're advising on the finances, they can say, hey, you know, these other benefits are great and they're worth more than the $6 million. You guys are saying it's going to cost more. I mean, that's fair game.

00:15:31,169	S1:
So it kind of also obliges us to vote or recommend, um, one or the other simply on the discounted cash flow. Um, so if it, if the math comes one way or the other. Are we locking ourselves as board members to vote with the money only? Um, because we're going to have, I assume, one model at the end of this that says, here it is with the school. Here it is. Without the school, it is more expensive to do one of these. So we're recommending the other one.

00:16:04,399	S4:
Well, you could be doing a range in terms of risks. You know that one of the schools turns into a pumpkin and you know, so that's a risk. And you know, that has a different set of numbers than if it doesn't turn into a pumpkin. But yeah, you know, if we're supposedly going to only provide financial advice, I think that's we can identify risks and cost associated or benefits associated with them. But, you know, the numbers then become whatever they are.

00:16:29,730	S1:
I think it's probably likely that different people on the board will put the risk of it turning into a pumpkin. Slightly different, right? Some people might think it's it's, you know, the the risk quotient we attach to it is too aggressive or or too lenient. And so we might individually have objections to the model and and vote differently than, you know, than the straight model.

00:16:54,970	S4:
You can also report out a range of numbers based on the the level of risk acceptance for the things. You can also have because the school committee is continuing to reduce the cost of the project. I mean, last night that dropped quite a bit, and they're hoping to get it to drop more by getting certain items for the state to pay for. Uh, so, you know, that's going to be something that's going to be happening as we're doing this analysis, the numbers are going to keep hopefully going down. So we're going to have to accommodate that as well.

00:17:34,369	S3:
I mean maybe you could put a model together. I mean the more we can simplify this the less we end up in a huge, you know, cluster F. Um, so, I mean, the driver of the, the construction model is this huge money from the state on day one, which limits our costs. And after and after it's built, the maintenance costs are stabilized at some relatively low level because it's brand new. The alternative could be, you know, it's been stated, as I understand, that if we say no, we get to the back of the line. So our next window is seven years. Accepting that at face value you could do a maintenance model, you know, very big, big picture that just says keep the lights on. And here's the budget for keeping the lights on until the next window. Um, you know, which is uh, if people have said, well, we'll have to wait seven years. Okay. Use the use their assumptions and say, all right. The alternative assumption is a maintenance model for seven years with another look. See, you know, for a complete redo. And then you could ask the school committee. Uh, not not what they think, but but what they they think it's whether it's good or not. Just say please, please present a model that assumes the following. The town say no. The next window is seven years. What is the maintenance budget for the existing plant and facilities for those seven years? Something like that.

00:19:17,170	S1:
Right. So then you would basically say, um, in seven years you are allowed to assume that a new school.

00:19:25,670	S3:
Uh, is well, we have another look, see? Because again, that's what people are declaring. We will we will not we will not get another bite of the apple for seven years. Okay. If true. Therefore the model, the maintenance model for the existing plant is X while we wait for the next window.

00:19:43,670	S3:
I mean, in that way it would simplify. You know, it would be very big picture and cause people to focus. Okay. These are the costs of maintenance until we wait for the next window.

00:19:57,700	S4:
You might want to add to the maintenance part. Asking them about the difference in the school non maintenance operating budget. Because people have talked about certain benefits from having teachers not have to travel between schools. And it may not be a lot of money. But you know the question is we should.

00:20:13,970	S3:
Exactly. Another line would be another line item in the model you could just add. And you could you could present them with a list of what we think the cost assumptions are. And then that way they could say, well gee, okay, we we agree with your model or you haven't thought of the following things. But in other words, in a in a nice and professional manner, you put the onus back on them to present the to present the maintenance model until the next window.

00:20:46,769	S3:
Because and that that gets us out of the whole debate about you have to do it. You have to do it because the the state's going to go away. And, and it's a disaster if and then that way we at least state we stated as options. And people can look at the costs and argue, they can argue over the costs of maintenance, or somebody can come up and say it's it doesn't work. I mean, the other argument that was thrown out in one of the meetings was at any minute a parent could litigate the quality of the, you know, the of the plant and facilities being substandard at any minute that was thrown out. Okay, I hear you. So then therefore show us the maintenance model, you know, to defer that kind of activity. For example, Peter Clay said, Do you know that there are no sinks in the urinal in the in the bathrooms at the Cutler School? Well, no, I didn't, but again, okay, show us a maintenance model that says put sinks in the Cutler and all the other things. Um, and then you compare that maintenance model against the, you know, the risks of, of missing the window now and, and then waiting seven years.

00:22:02,769	S5:
Yeah. I didn't understand how during the, um, executive committee meeting that we were a part of that was not on the public record, where somebody shared about how this is my crude summary. If we don't do this, like all the existing buildings are going to fall down and they're in disastrous condition. Yet Tracy, during the five board meeting said, no, we've done a great job of maintaining Bucher and it's in good standing and everything's going to be fine there, so we won't have to have any additional investments there.

00:22:37,730	S3:
And Winthrop looked great for me. I went over to the Christmas show, but, um, you know, that's that's just the part. But in any way, I think you'd have a simple. Yes, it would be. It would catalyze a fairly high level, 50,000 foot, you know, discussion as opposed to getting into the weeds on, you know, where did you get the cost for the cement? And, uh, you know, what about this and this and, you know, things like that.

00:23:07,299	S1:
All right. So as Jared, you and Dan are saying like they're making statements, right, that say that there is a risk that, um, the facilities are not currently or will not soon be in compliance with some, you know, statutory requirement for a school. Right, which would mean.

00:23:26,369	S3:
That's been thrown out in public meetings. And the other one is the wait seven years. Those are the two big things that have been thrown out.

00:23:33,500	S1:
Right? I have no idea how to quantify that risk.

Right. 00:23:37,470	S3:
But. But they owe it to us. They owe. They need to. Well, where's town council? Okay. What are the statutory risks? That's a legal issue. You know, if a parent sues and says the bathroom doesn't work, really? That that closes everything down? Explain that one to me is. And that's not financial. That's legal.

00:23:59,000	S1:
Yeah, that is legal. But just like, as fine as people, we get to put our fingers in everything. It's sort of like, okay, well, if the risk is if that happens, then we have to rent temporary buildings at such and such cost for five, you know, for the remaining five years. Right of the window before we're we move forward. So how do you quantify the financial implication of that risk? Right. The cost is $7 million and the risk is 50% chance. So we're saying it's there's a $3.5 million, um, you know, negative. You know, in the discounted cash flow of the don't do the new school.

And. 00:24:35,670	S3:
Well, I think it's, you know, uh, you probably have within the what happens if we don't build you probably have scenario one. You know, no parent sues and we patch up everything. Scenario two, you know, class action litigation and, you know, and again, the onus is on them to explain to us why this is a real risk. All I hear is people throwing out things unsubstantiated at public meetings, saying a parent could sue at any minute, you know. So okay, so if that's that, if that's a scenario, what you know, uh.

00:25:14,670	S1:
I mean, we have insurance too, which would mitigate some of that.

00:25:17,200	S3:
Well, exactly. I mean, I've, I've had experience with litigation and it okay. A parent files a complaint. Okay. It goes to some state agency. A state agency investigates. Okay. A state agency possibly proposes a remedy. My point is, you don't end up moving people into Quonset huts 48 hours after the person you know. Files litigation. So my point is, you could be getting to the seven year end point and these, these these regulatory issues on a case by case basis could be could. God forbid, we had to but could be addressed in a programmatic way. That's how those kind of things shake out. So I don't I don't if somebody's going to put up a model that says parent sues because bathroom doesn't work. School forks over 3 million next month because of that, that that's just unrealistic. And that can be refuted very easily with the assistance of town council if necessary, or outside counsel. But my point is, it's the onus is on them just to substantiate within the model, the seven year model, what the costs and risks are. And it's um, I view the litigation risk personally is minimal.

00:26:36,900	S3:
I mean, I'm not a construction engineer, but I do understand how those things shake out.

00:26:45,230	S1:
So maybe we are. I don't know if we need an official resolution, um, from the from this group on this, but, um, you know, I'm looking at next steps, right? So it seems like the, the, the select board is, uh, uh, in agreement with the approach that was in my note, which it seems like you guys are also generally, uh, in an agreement with. So, you know, and and you saw from Jeff he had sent over, uh, you know, a whole bunch of documents from the Hamilton, uh, Finance Committee. I think we're probably going to want to collaborate with them to avoid, um, and maybe rework on this and that. We're probably going to want to kind of make a request of the school board. For this alternative scenario.

00:27:39,230	S1:
There.

00:27:41,930	S1:
Um, I'm not sure what format is and what they can and can't do. Jeff, you'll have to help me to stay compliant here. But like, we could either have, you know, a joint meeting with the Hamilton Finance Board, or we could, uh, you know, I could reach out and and try to have a conversation with him if, uh, directly might be faster. Um, if I do that and at least tell them what we're thinking. Um, and then. And then bring in the rest of the all the boards.

00:28:11,369	S2:
Yeah. I mean, I think that's probably the best way to get started. Um, you know, we use sort of, you know, this has been a really good conversation. And I think you guys are asking all those sort of the right questions. Um, so, you know, you take what we've discussed here and you speak with the chair and Hamilton, uh, let them know sort of the approach we're taking, the questions we have. You know, the hope would be he's he's gathered a lot of this data and done maybe some of this analysis already. Now granted, it's someone else's. It's not yours. And you certainly want to vet it. And, you know, determine if you felt there were biases one way or the other or that kind of thing. But from there, yeah, we could move towards maybe a meeting with, um, the Hamilton Finance Committee. Um, I'm thinking they'll probably be at some point, a meeting where we would want to meet with the school committee or, um, the school committee and kind of the project manager of this project who can answer some of these questions. Um, you know, but I think ultimately this is the right approach. I mean, you folks have to weigh in on what's, you know, really the biggest financial question in the town of Wenham and, you know, quite some time and probably will be for a long time. Um, it, you know, you might be seen as, um, you know, fighting against the project, but I think, you know, we have to convey. You know, in theory, we're actually helping you here because if we don't ask the hard questions now. You know, you're going to be asked hard questions at town meeting floor and not be prepared. Um, and I think the, the sort of model you're talking about with this kind of discounted cash flow, um, you know, makes sense. Um, I keep thinking back to, boy, I'd love to be able to run sort of a monte Carlo analysis of, you know, how to how to, you know, capture the risk. But I couldn't begin to think about how to, um, how to, you know, structure that because the all the risks are, you know, there's, there's unknowns on like, you know, on an old financial planning model, you know, you know, what the life expectancy tables are and you can run a statistical analysis on that. But I don't know how you run the statistical analysis on something like, you know, someone suing you over bathrooms or that kind of thing. But now I think this is the right approach. And, you know, the starting with, you know, with John is probably the best. And then, um, we can think about how we want to structure meetings moving forward from there.

00:30:29,500	S3:
I would just like to add one thing to what Jeff said, which is in terms of engaging with Hamilton, this is maybe a little bit I would not, repeat, not invite the project manager to this first to these meetings, keeping along the assumption that they've thrown a number over the transom. It's X, okay. And we're not construction engineers and I and I don't want to spend one minute talking about, you know, what's going into the building. In other words, for this very important analysis, so that what you want to do is have the number from the from the project manager and engage in what Jeff just said. Monte Carlo analysis as to okay value, you know, net present value 150 million time value of money seven years. If we don't do it. Okay. Just in other words, play at that very high level. Don't don't get the guy coming in with pictures and boards and we'll just go in the wrong direction.

00:31:37,869	S2:
Just to clarify on that, Jared, I'm not talking about bringing them in for that. These folks are not only the project managers, but they're also the folks who deal with the MSBA and getting the funding. I'm thinking more of asking them. One of my questions is always, you know, who, like, went through this process and didn't, you know, didn't pass the project and then had to go back in line for seven years. What did they do? How do they work around it? Did they build without state funding and build something cheaper?

00:32:03,400	S3:
Misunderstood.

00:32:04,099	S2:
Yeah, give us examples. I didn't realize those questions.

00:32:06,930	S3:
Yeah. So is the project manager just as a factual matter? Are they responsible for negotiating with the state on our behalf?

00:32:14,329	S2:
So, you know, the term I think is like the owner's project manager or whatever in a typical town or municipal project, these folks that, you know, the $2 million Dano was speaking about earlier those sunk costs. These are the team. This is the team we bring in that has helped us navigate this process of the MSBA, of running, you know, providing them the information that shows why we believe we should be in the queue because our schools are in this particular shape. And then they provide the information of, you know, the state always looks at repair versus new construction. Um, you know, they evaluate those two and then they'll, they'll say to you, we will fund this new Cutler School. We won't we don't view the, you know, this repairing the three schools model you've provided us as viable, it seems like. And this would be another question I might ask them. It seems like they are always in favor of new construction. Um, I don't know of any projects where the MSBA has said no. You know, if you just fix up the three schools, we think that's your best solution. Um, so I think they always kind of have the slant towards new construction. Um, you know, and that could be for educational reasons that they feel like the not so much financial, but that the, the new, you know, learning environment is so, so much better for the children that that's why they slant that way.

00:33:32,730	S3:
Is that repair information been shared with folks.

00:33:36,369	S2:
It I when the I sent an email this morning with um some links and facts and whatever from their website, I haven't poured through it yet, but it should be part of these submissions. And so that's where I feel like the this, this sort of project manager could be helpful in pointing us to, you know, if you look at this submission, that. All right, um, you know, here's where we, you know, have a lot of this data I believe should already be in that, um, that packet. Um, so that's where I think they could be helpful.

00:34:06,130	S3:
Well, that's that means, then, that the school board should be readily able to provide the repair assumptions to us for the analysis.

00:34:16,429	S2:
Yeah. I mean, a lot in large part, I mean, maybe in the exact way we want to tailor this seven year maintenance plan and whatever it may be. Not exactly in that way, but it shouldn't be too, too hard for from them to get to point A to point B, I don't think.

00:34:29,300	S3:
Okay, sorry, I didn't realize that they were responsible for that too.

So. 00:34:35,929	S4:
You know, I think so.

00:34:37,469	S1:
Go ahead.

Robert. 00:34:38,829	S4:
I think one of the things we should consider is early on getting our preliminary model in place, because one learns a lot from that in terms of where we should ask for more information and where it doesn't make any difference, and also to give them enough lead time to produce something that they don't already have. If the you know, apparently there's a lot of stuff out there, but there may be some things we want that they don't have and want to give them enough time to get that.

00:35:04,230	S5:
I had another related question. As we're talking about alternatives and how this I guess some jump into how this fits into the bigger picture. But and Jeff, you're saying all the data that's been out there and published that we may or may not be aware of, but is there a master plan for the district as a whole, including the middle school and high school, and what we do with the future of the high school given declining enrollment and under utilization. And I don't know if somebody mentioned this during the meeting or not, but has anybody spoken to that or two years from now, are we going to get some capital request related to the high school to add on top of this $150 million?

00:35:47,869	S2:
Uh, I know that one of the things that has been spoken about, um, in terms of needs at the high school, um, there is likely a roof at the high school on the horizon, which that is going to be an expensive project for sure. I think I've heard something in the 5 to $10 million range for the roof. Um, they do sort of put out, um, you know, an annual or biannual sort of state of the facilities sort of report across the district as a whole. Um, but I think, you know, to your point, um, I mean, the high school must be of similar age, I think, to some of these other schools, maybe a little bit newer, but, um, it's going to be on the horizon. So that becomes another question of, you know, do you think, you know, the high school, you know, if you put whatever 5 or $10 million roof on the high school does that, does that keep the high school okay for the next, you know, whatever it is, seven, ten, 12 years, you know, or something or, you know, are we about to endeavor on this? You know, large, you know, capital expense for the Cutler project. And then you're going to tell us in 2 or 3 years that, you know, really the high school needs, um, you know, a major overhaul or a rebuild. I don't believe I've heard anything that would suggest that, but it's it's I think it's another sort of part of your matrix that you're looking at is the dividend, you know, the discount model on this particular these three schools in this, this project, but also that, you know, anything around the high school slash middle school is hanging out there as a potential, you know, cost as well that needs to be thought about. And yeah, the declining enrollment is it's a huge issue everywhere. I can tell you that. You know, in Manchester and Essex, we just built a new elementary school in Manchester and uh, probably, you know, two years ago it opened up. Um, and those numbers in that school are down, I think 30 to 40%. Um, can.

00:37:39,630	S5:
You get that data and share it with us so we can share that with the select board?

00:37:44,969	S2:
Sure. The memorial, the Manchester data in general or just I think everybody's pretty open here.

00:37:51,869	S5:
Something that shows that data about that particular school with building a new school and enrollment going down. And just I think that would be such a stark reality check for folks when they when we consider making this $150 million investment. This isn't just if you build it, they will come.

00:38:10,869	S2:
Yeah. One thing is.

00:38:11,670	S1:
A caution, a caution, right, is that if if you were doing a discounted cash flow analysis of do the middle, do the elementary schools or not? Do the elementary schools? The the need of the roof, say, at the high school is is not going to be impacted by doing one or the other. Right. And so it wouldn't change, you know, the financial model one way or the other. I think we have in endeavored at least in the last years since I've been doing it to when we're at the town meeting to warn town members of rather expensive, uh, future projects that are likely to occur, like the, the water, uh, PFAS thing. Right. And as we did last year. Right. And so I think it would make sense to call out at some in the right format. Right. And in the town meeting, you know, that the finance Committee wants to make sure residents are aware of rather large capital expenditures likely to come up, but I'm not sure that it's it would impact, um, like the, the, the, the roof problem, Problems, particularly at the high school. If would. Would have impact our decision here.

00:39:23,170	S5:
Yeah. Total. Well I, I asked the question, Jeff. You responded with that and referenced the roof costs. I was more asking if and you got to this in your response to Jeff about maybe we're going to consider who knows if there's something on the horizon. Doesn't sound like there is, but a rebuild of the high school somewhere down the road. So that's more what I was getting out of. In a separate, relevant, um, consideration, not only will we be looking at this 150 million, but ten years from now, we'll be looking at another 150 million for high school. And what is the district's overall plan given decreasing enrollment? And is that relevant for this decision? Maybe not. I guess it is insofar as it affects overall burden on the community over time. And this is one of multiple things. That'd be so. Yeah. I'm with you.

00:40:19,429	S1:
I think it's a good it's a good assumption to have right in the. We have to have we're going to have a list of assumptions that maybe people might disagree with. Like we're going to assume that, uh, that inflation is ex, right. We're going to, uh, and we're going to assume that it's 6 to 7 years before we can even consider another school. Right? We're going to we're going to assume that, you know, the, the the risk of a shutdown of the facilities is X, right. And we're going to assume that there are this many kids, you know, in the school system, you know, for the next 6 or 7 years, um, you know, or going forward. That's our that's our assumption that this is the need. Right. Um, and uh, people could argue, right, or might disagree or people on the board here might disagree with some of those assumptions. And that might change their own decision to to vote with or for or against the project. But if we list all those assumptions? Um, then we're kind of clear on how we're coming to this, this financial decision of the income.

00:41:25,199	S5:
Yeah, yeah. My, my, the two things for me, I would just love for the school board to tell us whether or not they expect we'll need to spend another 100 million plus on the high school. Middle school sometime or by when? When do they expect we would need to do that 20 years from now? Five years from now, ten years from now? Simple, relatively simple question. And then the other one, I think since you brought it up, Jeff, about the Manchester School, I just think we should put that specific data in front of the select board to help them think about the assumption about the utilization of this new school, because it's all predicated on it being X number of students. And that's not a no brainer. That's not a foregone conclusion. That's not a for sure thing.

00:42:09,630	S4:
You know, it might be helpful to look at the study that was done. I forget how many years ago when the, uh, the middle school was put next to the high school to get money to do work at the high school. So there may be some part information there about what the future expectation was. And I forget how long ago that was. But, uh, but that information should be someplace.

00:42:36,170	S2:
You know. Daniel, the other interesting thing about that Manchester school is I was one of the people that was advocating for a single new elementary school instead of two. Two new elementary schools, one in Essex, one in Manchester. But sort of the folks who wanted to have a local school for their kids, kind of, you know, that one out. But I think most of the people involved would probably say the right move for a lot of reasons. And one of the major ones is the enrollment would have been to build one school. Um, you know, and I felt that way when we were looking at doing it. And now when you look at the enrollment numbers, to me it seems pretty clear that, you know, should have been the path we took.

00:43:13,000	S5:
Yeah. It's a great case study.

00:43:15,670	S1:
So I'm looking at the time I usually try to keep our meetings to an hour. Or I don't know what other folks, uh, think about that. Um, but, uh, I think we have another item on the agenda to talk a little bit about the operating budget as well. I'm obviously been having been thinking about that as much. I've been thinking about this particular project. Um, but do we feel like we have a next step? So I'm looking at at the notes I've been taking, right. That, um, asking the school board to, to detail the, the alternative of no school, um, that gets us to the next funding window talks about shutdown risks, facility risks, insurance that would cover any of these so-called, you know, shutdown risks. Um, and, you know, ask them about other major CapEx in the either in the 6 to 7 year window or or going forward and then start the process to collaborate with the Hamilton phenomenon. I would probably speak to the other chair. Um, you know, probably, uh, hopefully before the new year and then, uh, plan on having a joint meeting with them and everybody else in early January. Um, and then, uh, and then move forward from there with an eye of, of having to come up with our decision by the end of February.

00:44:38,800	S1:
Is there any homework? Geoff. We talked about homework, um, for people over the holidays.

00:44:44,730	S2:
Um, yeah. I mean, I think, um. Thanks a lot. Yeah. I was just thinking, trying to get as much information as I could to. I mean, I think enfin, and I talked about this a little bit, but I think, I mean, obviously the operating budget is our largest task every single year. But it feels like this the building project sort of eclipses that to some degree, because it's such a large, um, you know, decision to be made and to be, you know, advising folks on. Um, but that being said, we still, you know, also have to, you know, create the operating budget and, you know, weigh in on that as well. But I sort of felt like this is sort of, you know, I think there's more of a timeliness to getting this part of the work up and running earlier. And, you know, maybe we can, um, catch up a little bit on the operating side, you know, in a week or two. But yeah, I was thinking just trying to get as much information out to people around this building project as we could for them to digest. Um, but I think, you know, what I'm hearing here is it would probably be great to sort of, uh, as you say, you've been taking notes, just walking through, like, what are the important variables? We think, you know, we need we want to know more about. And, you know, you've alluded to like, you know, inflation, you know, interest rate would be another one. Um, you know, can we quantify. You know, I do think the 6 or 7 years to get back into MSBA is a pretty, um, truthful statement. Um, one of the other concerns is always, well, the MSBA funding is here today. Will it will it be here in seven years in the same way. I tend to think it probably will be because it's been around for quite a while now. And with the implementation of sort of the millionaire's tax, um, that that came into effect last year. Um, that's more money that's available to the state. And part of that is supposed to be, you know, peeled off towards education. Um, so I don't know that the risk of it going away, um, is, is significantly large, you know, but maybe it is non-zero. Um, so maybe that has to be, you know, one of our variables we have to, you know, be concerned about. Um, but yeah, I think if we could work to maybe at our next meeting, which I think is going to be on the 8th of January, um, you know, be moving towards, you know, at least having the shell of what we want, that, you know, that model to be, to analyse this stuff. And then, as you say, we can start, um, reaching out to other people, be it the income folks in Hamilton, uh, people affiliated with the school that can start filling in the details so that we can then begin to, you know, run this analysis and, um, you know, maybe we can't do a full Monte Carlo, but you can say, you know, this, this assumes interest rates stay at this or, you know, a shift in interest rates, you know, it would would make the make the project or make these numbers look different. Um, you know, I think it just shows to the residents that you've, you know, looked at this from a bunch of different angles. You know, not the the cost of rebar angle that's kind of outside your, you know, expertise. But but, you know, just the financial analysis that you would do in your normal everyday jobs, you know, bringing that to this, um, this project. Um, so that's sort of I guess what I was envisioning is homework. Finn is just there's a lot to probably digest between now and the next meeting.

00:47:53,400	S1:
So if I, if I have that right, it's basically there are a bunch of documents that you have or plant. We're planning on sending over to folks between now and the eighth, and we'd like folks to be familiar with them. And then also that we should be thinking about the assumptions that we want to put on a list, right. And, you know, have those be incorporated in, in the, um, decision making process or the model? Um, that we come up with at the end of this.

00:48:22,199	S3:
And could you include on that list some general information about the MSBA? I, I am completely ignorant of this apparently massive state, uh, institution that we're, we're basically rolling the dice with. I mean, in a good way, I suppose, but I know nothing about it. If there's anything that somebody can point me toward, a link or a website or articles.

00:48:47,000	S2:
And I sent two links out this morning just before the meeting that referenced back to the school website that our, uh, FAQs and some documents related, um, to the project. Uh, so there's quite a bit there. I mean, thank you.

Sorry. 00:49:02,030	S3:
As you can see, I didn't get to it.

00:49:03,599	S2:
No, no, it's fine. But yeah, I think that's going to sort of be the starting point. And then, you know, I plan on, you know, digging into all this as well. It's been a while since I've gone through this process. Um, and, you know, and I assume you will all have some questions, you know, and certainly as I go through it, if I say, geez, you know, this doesn't provide me enough information on the MSBA, you know, here's another link. Uh, you know, that really, you know, talks about what you know, what they do and what the process is. But I do think getting some of these submissions to the MSBA from the district and the and the, you know, project manager they're working with, those are going to have quite a bit of information that we'd want to see.

00:49:43,869	S3:
Um, and one other thing, perhaps. I mean, it's, it would be nice to have is, um, uh, I, I don't know if town council could possibly. Um, I mean, again, the arguments been thrown out that we're going to have to defend against. I'm almost sure that, you know, a parent will sue. A parent will sue if you don't do this. Has there been any cases? Case law. You know where class actions from parents have been filed about public health. You know, and what the remedies were as a result?

00:50:21,829	S2:
None. I mean, I would think the school is much more aware of those things. I mean, I don't personally have any.

00:50:26,469	S3:
I just I guarantee that those when we when we get down to the short strokes, that's what's that's going to get thrown out and we got to have an answer. And otherwise we will be asked to accept at face value that, that there's this huge litigation risk where, you know, the kids are going to be thrown into Quonset huts. You know, in 30 days after upon submission of a complaint by a parent. That's the argument that is going to be framed against us. Us, I mean, in terms of whatever model we come up with.

00:50:58,030	S2:
Okay.

00:51:02,369	S2:
Yeah, I can, I can I'll talk to Steve and figure out the best way to, you know, approach that to get some information on that.

00:51:09,570	S3:
Case law that that in 20 minutes they can go through. They can do a case law search. Um, you know, you know, MSBA versus Town of Weston MSBA. You know, they'll know a way to pop up anything, anything that's out there. And if they don't find anything, you know, Q.E.D., I think we've proved our, our our assumption that, you know, this is not perhaps a major risk in the model.

00:51:39,170	S1:
Right. And I think, as you've said, you know, you know, how long did it take from complaint to impact, if there was any and, you know, was there no insurance that was, you know, built into this that mitigates, you know, 90% of this, you know, these expenses.

00:51:53,329	S3:
But usually usually what happens with state agencies is that you, in good faith, go to them immediately and say, okay, we understand your problem. Here's our plan to fix it. Meaning maybe a few more dollars in the maintenance budget that were otherwise not there. That that's that's usually how these things roll. And, and and I'm just trying to make sure that there's nothing out there, you know, $30 million judgment. Town of Weston for noncompliance with public health. You know, that kind of thing.

00:52:22,670	S1:
Okay. I think that's we can at least ask the school board or and the town's town lawyers right to, to give us guidance there, because we're going to have to put that as an assumption that this is a legitimate concern. And the, you know, you know, or it's not right, right. Or it's mitigated down to 90% of or 10% of the.

Yeah. 00:52:44,170	S3:
And that can be done with very short with no very short dollars in a very small amount of time by town council or somebody that they ask, please, please give us a rundown of, you know, history of litigation in this kind of matter.

00:53:03,570	S1:
Okay.

00:53:06,769	S1:
All right. So I think I've got our list. I think, Jeff, you and I are probably gonna want to touch base, uh, to, to get the ball rolling and send these notes out. Um, uh, I appreciate you guys thoughtful, uh, uh, thoughtful discussion on this. And we'll, uh, hopefully get on the ground running with some of these assumptions at least laid out. And what the alternative is from the school board, as we looked for early January and our getting back together on this.

00:53:33,929	S2:
Yeah. And if folks want to comment on me with their, you know, some assumptions, questions, whatever, that they want to sort of build into this model, I can kind of consolidate those. And, you know, as we pull it all together, I can send it back out and sort of, you know, so everyone can see, you know, I'm sure plenty of the questions will be the same from all of you, but maybe, you know, each of you will have a few different questions and I can get something out that shows everybody, you know, this is this is what we're thinking of asking. Uh, as of right now. And then we can use that as a starting point to start our discussion on, um, you know, on the eighth.

00:54:06,570	S1:
Great. All right. Unless. Any other questions. Uh, Robert, I see your hand up.

00:54:11,699	S4:
Yeah. I just wanted to make sure that everybody does. Everyone have the information from last night's school committee meeting in terms of the size of the budget and reimbursement and the change in the assessment for Wenham.

00:54:25,199	S1:
I don't so I think, Jeff, it would be helpful if you distributed.

00:54:27,969	S2:
I can circulate that.

00:54:30,099	S4:
If you'd like. I can tell you what now what I have for my notes.

00:54:33,469	S2:
Okay.

00:54:34,469	S1:
Sure.

00:54:35,469	S4:
151 has gone down to 140 2.2 with a million, with an expected reimbursement of 48 from, uh, the state. And they're hoping to get the state's contribution up, uh, by conversations with them. The Wenham, uh, share uh, uh, is an increase of

00:54:59,730	S4:
$30 versus the 1.2 million that was in the earlier conversation.

00:55:05,469	S1:
That's the operational budget, not the operational.

00:55:07,869	S4:
So it's a little over 300,000 from what we, uh, first looked at. So I thought that might be useful background. In terms of reviewing the materials that are coming out that were prepared earlier.

00:55:20,469	S1:
Sure.

00:55:21,670	S2:
Perfect.

00:55:22,170	S6:
Thank you.

00:55:27,269	S1:
Okay. Um. All right, so I'm looking at the clock. I'm trying to, uh, be, uh, conscientious of the of our all of our time. Are there budget, operational budget concerns right now, Jeff, that you're you're hoping to get from this group? Um, or sort of resolutions or next steps that you want us to be taking?

00:55:49,130	S2:
Uh, I don't think at this time. I mean, I think, you know, we rolled out, you know, a very high level budget on, on Saturday. I still feel like we're going to work to get some, some additional reductions across departments. I was actually talking to Bob yesterday, um, about, you know, one of the things I like to look at is, you know, we're always mindful of building, you know, budgeted numbers on budgeted numbers. So I kind of like to look back to, you know, I now have FY 24 actuals and just sort of give it a sanity check of, you know, if we spent 100 in 2020 24, but the budget we're asking for, you know, in 2026 is, you know, is, I don't know, 115. Um, you know, you think, well, geez, that sounds you know, that would mean we've actually gone, you know, whatever. That's 8% inflation over the last two years because we're going budget over budget. And look to, you know, in those particular line items or those budgets look to sort of trim those back and say, you know, even if I give you 4% inflation, you're going to be at, you know, 109 instead of 115. Um, trying to look and find some of those places we can save. Um, you know, that being said, we've had some, some really bad experience in FY 25. So for so far with just. I might have mentioned that on Saturday. Uh, you know, we lost an engine in one of the cruisers. We lost a transmission in one of the cruisers. Uh, we had a $10,000, um, HVAC problem at the police station. We had a $32,000 HVAC problem at the fire station. Um, you know, those are all things that will ultimately hit Finance Committee reserve. Um, you know, in the last few years, I think we haven't hit hit your reserve account too, too hard. So that's been a nice return to free cash. Uh, but this is going to be one of those years, I think, where, you know, what can everything that can go wrong does go wrong. And maybe we're not, um, returning as much money in free cash coming out of 25. Um, but, um, you know, that's the only sort of thing I'm thinking about right now, but, um, is I going to say. And the other thing is, the last couple of days I've been working on pulling together. It's a really large group of comparative communities now based on, you know, population or proximity or, you know, kind of socio economic and trying to compile a database for you folks of kind of per capita spending across, you know, public safety, DPW or whatever. So we can start to use some of those comparatives to at least ask the questions of, you know, why is it you know, more, you know, more expensive here to do this than it is, you know, and most of our comparable, you know, communities on a per capita basis and maybe some that we look and say, boy, we're really doing well in this particular line item. You know what? What is it? We're doing well on highway that's allowing us to be, you know, lower per capita than other communities. But I'm hoping that, you know, we'll have a bit of a database for you folks at the next meeting, um, for that kind of comparative stuff. So maybe that can help shape our discussion and approach to the budget for FY 26.

00:58:47,329	S1:
Okay. Sounds good. Jeff, thank you very much for that. And, uh, so, um, I think we have a marching orders. I'll work with Jeff to keep this ball rolling over the the holiday time period, and that we'll have all sorts of information for us at our next meeting. Um, so I'm going to ask for a motion to close the fin comm, uh, at 1031 on the December 20th, looking for a motion.

00:59:16,630	S3:
So moved.

00:59:17,699	S1:
So that's Robert, I think, and looking for a second piano. Second and a second. All right. Uh. Any discussion? Not hearing any ask for, uh, a vote.

00:59:30,469	S3:
I.

00:59:31,429	S1:
I and I, Jared, I.

00:59:33,300	S5:
You know.

00:59:33,670	S1:
I, I. Okay. And not hearing any against, uh, no abstentions. Then we are closed. So thank you very much for your guys, for your time on this odd time period and, and, uh, coming together. And, uh, I will hope you guys have a great, uh, holiday season.

00:59:48,199	S3:
You two have a great holiday.

00:59:49,969	S1:
All right. Cheers, guys.

00:59:52,070	S7:
Thanks, guys.