00:10:13,067 S1: Thanks, Ron. 00:10:16,000 S2: Great. Okay. Um, it's, uh, 7:01 p.m., and I'm calling the, uh, January 7th, 2025, Hamilton Planning Board to order. Uh, the meeting is being recorded by H.W. cam and eventually should be available to the public on YouTube. So at this point, I will call roll. So when you call your name, would you please indicate that you're present? Uh, Pat Norton. Present. Jonathan. 00:10:47,801 S3: Poor Jonathan, poor present. 00:10:49,968 S2: Uh, Emil Dahlquist, Emil Dahlquist. 00:10:52,567 S4: Present. 00:10:53,367 S5: That's her present. 00:10:56,567 S2: Darcy. Dale. 00:10:57,467 S6: Darcy. Dale. Present. 00:10:58,801 S2: Matt Hamill. 00:10:59,968 S4: Present. 00:11:01,400 S2: Uh, Jeff. Austin. 00:11:02,567 S7: Jeff. Austin present. 00:11:03,701 S2: And Marty Crouch present. And I note for the record, Bill Wheaton, um, is not present, but I didn't hear that he was not going to attend the meeting, so maybe he's just running a little late. So the first item on our agenda is a review and vote on the draft minutes from November 26th, 2024. Uh, uh, Mark did go through the minutes, and I also went through them and found just 1 or 2 very, very minor errors. So unless anyone else has any Comments or edits with respect to the minutes. 00:11:41,167 S8: Uh, I'll make a motion. 00:11:42,567 S2: You can make. 00:11:43,200 S6: I make a motion that we approve the minutes for November 26th, 2024. 00:11:47,968 S3: Second. 00:11:49,400 S4: Wait. One. One. Discussion. Oh, okay. Okay. There. There isn't a bottom of page. One of two and a third line. Fourth line. Third line up from the bottom PVC scope for util minor thing, but should be FBC. 00:12:11,100 S2: FBC. I think yeah, I think I missed that one. 00:12:14,968 S4: Yeah. 00:12:17,467 S2: Or Rob. Mark I sent you my word document. It had revision one in parentheses. Yes. So you if you would be so kind as to make that one edit, then they're ready to go. I don't have to. I don't have to do anything with them. 00:12:33,200 S1: Sure. 00:12:34,367 S2: So that was the Fourth line up from the bottom toward the right side of the page. 00:12:45,267 S9: And what was the change? 00:12:47,400 S4: The initials should be F BC instead of PVC. 00:12:56,667 S4: Yeah. 00:12:57,868 S2: Okay. The next item on the agenda. 00:13:00,267 S4: Is a vote on that. 00:13:01,667 S2: Oh sorry, I forgot to do that. Um, so when I call your name, would you indicate your assent to the approval of the minutes? Pat Norton. 00:13:10,801 S10: That Norton I. 00:13:11,767 S2: Jonathan poor. 00:13:12,801 S3: Jonathan, poor I. 00:13:14,067 S2: Amel Dahlquist. 00:13:15,167 S4: Imelda Augustine. 00:13:16,267 S2: Beth her I Darcy Dale Darcy Dale. I am John crouch I. So the next item on our agenda is, uh, a final vote on the memorandum to the select board that I prepared with respect to the Groundwater Protection Overlay District. So this memorandum was sent to, uh, Town Council. Robin Stein. She did suggest that we document for the file the reasons for the change to the groundwater protection overlay district. And I did, um, do that. I added one other observation with respect to that, in addition to, um, a concern about the septic seepage, uh, if there was more, more than one dwelling unit per 80,000ft². And that was consistent consistency with the R.A. district. So, um, unless anyone else has any further comments, I did change the date on the memo to January 8th, and I will send it to the select board tomorrow morning. 00:14:28,767 S3: I have a quick comment. Sure. Um, it doesn't necessarily I don't think you have to go in the memo, but a bit of, uh, sort of support for this, should it be challenged? Would be for somebody to see if they could find the pre. Let's see pre May 1990 zoning bylaw in which case it should have the correct wording in it. 00:14:55,100 S2: Right. 00:14:56,167 S3: Anything pre May 1990. 00:14:59,100 S2: Yeah I got the bylaws from 2012. And it had the language were correcting. But to find pre 1990 I think we would have to designate someone to go to the town hall and dig through the records to try and find that. 00:15:18,767 S3: And it's the only purpose of that would be if it was challenged. 00:15:22,467 S2: Right. And and and you can attest that it was formerly the way it will be. Uh, if it's approved at town meeting, the way the planning board is suggesting. 00:15:35,100 S3: Well, I can only attest. Second hand I was I was promised the document. It wasn't found. And then he passed. So. 00:15:43,901 S2: But you've heard. I've heard it's hearsay. 00:15:46,801 S3: From the horse's mouth. 00:15:47,767 S2: But this is not a court of law. So we're going to accept your hearsay. And if it's challenged, we will. There will be someone designated to ascertain the truth of the assertion. 00:16:01,000 S3: Okay. 00:16:02,300 S2: Okay. So, uh, I think probably unless there's further discussion. I'll entertain a motion to send this memorandum. Um, as as it exists now. And you should have gotten a copy of it in your package for Mark the very minor. Um. 00:16:20,267 S6: Shall I make a motion? I move that we send the, um, the pod, uh, as written to the select board. is that? 00:16:29,567 S2: Yes. So what happens is the memorandum is transmitted to the Select board for their consideration. They turn around it and send it back to us. And then we have the public hearing. And then and then it goes to the annual town meeting. And the town votes to accept it or reject it. So I have a motion. 00:16:51,467 S4: Second. 00:16:52,367 S2: Yes. So when I call your name, would you please indicate your assent? Pat Norton. 00:16:56,701 S10: I. 00:16:57,501 S2: Jonathan, poor. 00:16:58,567 S3: Jonathan, poor I. 00:16:59,968 S2: Am Dahlquist. 00:17:01,267 S4: Emil Dahlquist. 00:17:01,968 S2: Die Beth Herr, I Darcy Dale. 00:17:05,100 S6: Darcy Dale I. 00:17:06,167 S2: And Marney Crouch I. 00:17:09,901 S2: Thank you all for that. Moving along and now to I think, um, really the heart of our discussions, we have two, um, uh, bylaws, uh, section 3.0 and then 10.6 to consider. And obviously the the bylaw provision dealing with accessory dwelling units is um. 00:17:36,767 S3: Speaking to the Mike's speaking. 00:17:38,567 S6: Oh, they want us to speak into the mix. Do they. 00:17:42,367 S2: Sorry. Um, the accessory dwelling units is is in a sense the most complicated because of the other provisions of the accessory dwelling unit by law, as well as the table. Um, uh. 00:18:02,968 S2: Table of use regulations, which in the version of the bylaw that appears on the town website is a is is corrupted. So we have to I asked Marc to give you all a copy of the correct 2016 version of the Table of Use regulations. Is that is that in the packet? Yes it is. 00:18:39,400 S9: But no regulations. 00:18:41,567 S6: Yeah. 00:18:41,868 S11: We can't hear him. 00:18:45,100 S12: I can't hear it. 00:18:46,601 S2: You can't hear. 00:18:47,367 S13: It? Yeah. We can't hear Mark when he's responding. 00:18:49,868 S11: We couldn't hear it. 00:18:50,467 S9: Sorry. Yes. That's fine. Should be in your packet. Um, under section 3.0 regulations. If you don't have it, I have extra copies. 00:18:59,901 S2: Right. So I when I looked at the section 10.6, there was a reference to the table of use regulations that made absolutely no sense. And, and then together with the errors that our building Commissioner, Rich Maloney, found and our our effort to find other Scribner's heirs. We really dug deep and we found with the help of Corinne Cale and obviously Mark was working on this. We found the 2012 version of the bylaw and then the 2016 version of the bylaw. The 2016 version of the bylaw has been amended a couple of times. The inclusionary housing provisions was amended in 2018, and then the accessory apartment provision was also amended. And I that might have been 2018. I might have my dates wrong, but both of those sections were amended after 2016. But the table of use regulations that you now have in front of you, um, is correct. And so we in talking about ADUs. We have to also look at section E of the table of Use regulations. That's captioned accessory, because we may have to amend that as well, because the draft that Mark and I worked on, we eliminated section 3.7, which is now incorporated into just 3.6. But that seemed to be unnecessary. I mean, accessory or ADUs on large lots. What's the difference? It's any lot. It just seemed redundant. And I think, uh uh, correct me if I'm wrong, which you're saying that, um, section, um. 00:21:13,200 S2: Section 3.4 conversion for temporary additional living areas is a provision that has never been used. 00:21:22,167 S1: Not as long as I have been here in it. It doesn't make any sense. Um, anybody that's come in and talk to us or anything, and we just steer them towards the other one. Either way, you had to get a special permit. And then it's one of those provisions that once that person has moved on, he's supposed to reach the kitchen. Nobody does that. It's just us. So maybe it was good at the time it was adopted, but it's really useless. Nobody uses it. And now that the use of by right, it'll never get used, it just opens the bank. I would just delete that section. 00:21:58,267 S2: Right. Exactly. Right. So, um, I have no problem with that. Is there any discussion with respect to that? I would imagine that most people, when they put in kind of a temporary apartment, have no clue that there's a bylaw out there that might affect their ability to do that, and I can't imagine why anyone would say no. And then once it's in, it's in and it's unlikely to ever be removed. And it just is ink. As you say, for the sake of ink. So, um. 00:22:34,400 S3: I think Marnie could is it possible for us to back out for a minute and sort of look at this task a little bit more globally, and then come back in on the details for just a moment? 00:22:46,701 S2: Well, that's fine, but I'd like to look globally at section three as opposed to the entire bylaw. 00:22:52,200 S3: No, just section three. 00:22:53,367 S6: Okay. 00:22:54,601 S3: So um, a couple of big picture observations or opinions. Uh, the change in the Adu bylaw could potentially have a greater impact, visually and planning wise, on, um, Hamilton than Then three A and form based code and any of those other things combined. So it's a it's a big deal and we can do it well. Or we could do it less well. And then in addition to that, since it's generally by right, it really comes back around to, um, a little bit more creative and collaborative process to achieve success. And there's an, for me, an odd parallel between chapter 40, see the establishment of historic districts and this bylaw in chapter 40. See, yes, you can deny a permit, but you don't have much basis to do it on. Um, and really, what your, your mission is for success is a collaboration with the applicants to manage to success. And the first step in that is education. And the first step in education is often guidelines that are visual. And then pre a pre-application conference. So you've got you've got really fairly detailed guidelines which are non jurisdictional but but clear and educational. And then you've got those to reference in in a pre-application conference. And I ran the Gloucester Historic District Commission for nearly 20 years. And that was the process that we used. Um, and it was, it was a very complex district to manage with a lot of very strong development pressure from a lot of different directions. And that that combination of approaches I thought was very helpful. When you had a byelaw 40 C, which has no teeth in it. Um, so anyway, I'm just sort of backing out and wondering if we thought of this as crafting, fixing, fixing the existing bylaw. Tuning it up, tailoring it to what the state says. And then And in, in close sort of partnership with it, creating a set of visually understandable guidelines and then a really proactive pre-application, um, interview or, you know, conference process that there might be a more collaborative way to success here, that the a bylaw alone is going to have a hard time achieving. That's just a there's just sort of a big picture. 00:25:40,567 S2: No. And I and I actually agree with you about the guidelines. They would obviously not be mandatory. I mean the regulations, the proposed regulations, educational. Yes. 00:25:50,868 S3: They're educational. So and so that the applicant knows what's going to be talked about when they show up at the hearing. Right. But the. 00:25:57,467 S2: Other. 00:25:58,067 S3: The other is a situation where an architect has, you know, extended thousands of dollars on a drawing that's done. The applicant doesn't want to redo. And it's might it might not be in alignment with what the priorities are of the purpose of the bylaw. 00:26:14,701 S2: Well, to me. 00:26:15,601 S1: I say something. 00:26:16,367 S2: Well, can I just make a point, though? What he's saying is. 00:26:19,968 S1: That you you did not. You cannot create a regulation for the ADUs that you don't have for the single family home. That right? 00:26:28,367 S3: I understand. 00:26:29,100 S1: So you don't regulate your single family homes in town aren't on the site plan. There's no pre review. 00:26:35,367 S3: Understood. 00:26:35,767 S1: You don't have to go to the zoning board. So you can't create something for the Adu that you don't for the single families. 00:26:42,501 S3: Understood. 00:26:43,100 S1: All right. So you have to go back. 00:26:44,767 S3: You totally understood. 00:26:45,968 S1: Every house would have to go through site plan if you want the ADUs to go through site. 00:26:49,167 S3: No, not every Adu. It would be. What I'm doing is I'm getting at the the the ones that are unusual that require a site like a site plan review. That's what I'm assuming. Sorry, I just, I just. 00:27:01,000 S2: Let me make two points. One is that the statute itself permits site plan review. Yes. However, it's it's almost unheard of to have a site plan review for a single family house. But I think we can craft site plan review for specific circumstances. Yes. Limited? Yes. But in terms of we have to differentiate voluntary guidelines in regulations. So the guidelines would not in any way shape or form be mandatory. But let's let's take a step back here. ADUs have the potential to be of enormous benefit, you know, to to young families, to, to people who are on fixed incomes and have a large house and want to move to a smaller property on the same site. There are enormous benefits to this. And so to make it acceptable to the community and not have a buttars tearing their hair out because someone's, you know, building something that's visually unattractive or or materials that are antithetical to any other building in the neighborhood. You know, to have these guidelines can actually promote. As, as, as Jonathan says, more of a collaborative approach rather than have people running to the Zeba because this Adu is just, you know, going to be an eyesore in the neighborhood. 00:28:32,000 S3: So the education tends to be more proactive. An example of that is Boston has a very extensive document. I don't think it's a great document, but it's really comprehensive. You can find it online. And what it is is it's a very detailed primer on what's an Adu, what are all the different ways you can apply it in all the situations in Boston, it's really comprehensive. I don't necessarily agree that it has really a specific application in Hamilton, but the idea that they're there, they're promoting it, demystifying it and giving people the tools to to solve the problems, I think is great. And I think we could use that kind of thinking in a smaller scale here. 00:29:16,667 S2: Right. 00:29:17,767 S3: And so that's not that Boston guideline is not jurisdictional. And it starts right out saying that's just it's just educational. It's helping. 00:29:23,968 S2: People. Yeah. It's yeah. You know, we we're not going to be able to stop people from building aid. 00:29:30,367 S3: You know. And that's the idea is they're all they're all coming. But you want to. 00:29:33,868 S2: Encourage. 00:29:34,467 S3: You want to help them help them to success. 00:29:37,367 S2: To to to fit within the community and not garner a lot of antipathy, but from people adjacent. Uh, so. 00:29:47,667 S3: So that's that's my point here. But but in in thinking that way, it could temper how you craft the bylaws so that you're not struggling to make it restrictive when it shouldn't be restrictive. Instead, it's a carrot instead of a stick is what I'm going at. That's what I'm getting at. And that's why I wanted to bring it up. Now, before before diving into the weeds on what's in the document. 00:30:11,367 S2: Right. 00:30:11,901 S3: So if if the board embraces that, then we sort of think of, think of it as a package rather than you build the bylaw, hope for the best and then bandaid it with some guidelines. 00:30:24,200 S2: Well, I think here when I, you know, step back from this draft and really started thinking about what we need to do, we need to think step by step. I'm I'm a homeowner. I want to build an Adu. What do I do first? Do I go to the the planning department or the building department and I get a form, okay. And and I have to fill out the form. That's probably the first step. So when you go to get the form, you get the guidelines. 00:30:56,868 S3: Exactly. 00:30:58,100 S2: And then you know, you talked about a pre-application conference, but a conference, because part of the issue. 00:31:06,200 S3: That would be that would be more if there's site plan review. 00:31:09,267 S2: Yeah. But even so, even just talking to people because you don't want to spend money on an Adu if you don't have the septic capacity for it. 00:31:19,167 S3: Right? 00:31:19,567 S1: Yes. 00:31:19,868 S2: You don't want to break ground. 00:31:21,267 S3: It gives you the checklist. It gives you the checklist so that you. 00:31:24,400 S2: You know, what you can do. And whether it's. 00:31:26,267 S3: The great thing about the Boston guidelines is it literally says step one, step two, step three. And it goes through a checklist. And it's like I say, it's very it's very accessible document. It's not written in design jargon. It's written for the homeowner specifically for the homeowner, as an accessible guideline for the entire process, from how to begin to think about it to how to how to finish it out and get your certificate. 00:31:52,300 S2: And this is important because as you said at the last meeting, it's highly unlikely that people are going to construct ADUs from scratch. They're probably going to buy some type of prefabricated building and put it on a foundation. 00:32:08,100 S3: Site by site. Over the years, I've done both. 00:32:11,267 S2: Well, I mean, it may be eventually, but given today's markets money, I don't. 00:32:17,467 S6: Often get. 00:32:17,767 S3: To put those elements. 00:32:18,767 S2: On $1,000 900 square foot. 00:32:21,868 S3: Often there's elements in a building, either in accessory buildings or in unused square footage in a building that you can adjust on. 00:32:28,100 S2: That, I mean. 00:32:28,968 S3: And the Boston document covers all of those permutations. Yeah. 00:32:33,267 S2: We should get that ASAP. 00:32:34,968 S3: It's on. It's online. I can send it. 00:32:37,067 S1: We get a copy in our office. 00:32:38,567 S2: Okay. Oh, you do good. Yeah. So? So with. With that said, I don't know if if you all have had an opportunity to look through this. Uh, I think, Rich, your big concern is you are leery of site plan review. 00:32:57,567 S1: So and all I'm saying is that the state regulations 00:33:04,667 S1: say that you can't make it any more difficult. You can't create something in your bylaw that you don't have for the house, that it's going on the lot. So once again, if the house is not on the site plan or a single family, then the ADUs can't be. 00:33:19,300 S2: Well, I did not read the statute that way. 00:33:21,901 S1: I got it right here. So it's the last. 00:33:23,701 S6: Second. 00:33:24,067 S2: Last page here as well. And and I think that the reason why you could craft very limited circumstances where there is site plan review one, it is permissible and two, you know, on very small lots because I think that's where, you know, there's the potential for real problems. 00:33:43,267 S1: Again, unless it applies to the single family home, it can apply to the Adu. By right. I mean you have to understand that that's that's the basic provides. The state is saying you can't make these atoms more difficult than the house to build. So on small lots. What's going to control the Adu is the septic system in the setbacks. Like every small lot you're really, you know, the dimensional requirements are going to control what gets built on your lot, get a small lot. You might not be able to fit an 80 year. That's all there is to it. You know you have the you have the lot building lot coverage provision. That's 25%. We have people that have a difficult time in the, you know, off the square area with those small lots when they want to do additions because of the lot coverage provisions. So so I think small lots kind of take just the basic zoning regulations, dimensional regulations. Take care of that. Again, you got to remember that's the baseline. You can't the state does not want barriers to the ADUs. That's not one thing to remember. 00:34:47,000 S2: So I and which I really do appreciate your saying that. But if the statute specifically. References. Site plan review. It it must be for a reason. So. 00:34:59,367 S1: So you know if you. Yeah. If you want to say okay every every property in town is on the site plan review then the ads can be on the site plan review. 00:35:10,267 S1: That's that's an overall looking at the overall thing to change the whole bylaw. But that's, that's section uh the state regs. 00:35:23,267 S2: Well it is conceivable to me section. 00:35:25,868 S1: Um let's see. It's on the second or last page site plan notation. Any requirement of the site plan review concerning procedural I mean protected use ADUs that is more restrictive than those applied to the principal dwelling. 00:35:43,667 S2: This is the proposed regulation. So this is not cast in concrete yet. And I understand. 00:35:48,601 S1: That this is under the this is under the provision about the following restriction regulation shall be considered unreasonable. 00:35:56,200 S2: Right. This is the draft regulation. The final the the public hearing on this regulation is tomorrow. So. 00:36:10,467 S2: That's the issue. 00:36:12,167 S10: I, I want to just to mention that I agree with some of the guideline information Jonathan was describing. And Richard and Mary Ellen have a lot of really awesome, like helpful guides. Um, whether or not you want to put up a shed or whatever else, um, on the building department page. And that could be a helpful link that gets added, but I'm not sure it belongs in the bylaw itself like we have. 00:36:39,868 S5: In the Bible. 00:36:40,367 S3: It can't be in the boiler. 00:36:41,367 S10: Okay, I didn't know you were recommending us, like add stuff to the bylaw. 00:36:45,367 S1: What you. 00:36:45,667 S3: Would do is. 00:36:46,100 S1: You. 00:36:46,200 S3: Would you would be thinking about the guideline as. 00:36:49,000 S1: You. 00:36:49,167 S3: Develop the bylaws so that you understand how they marry together. But it's non jurisdictional. It's informational. It's educational. That's all it is. 00:36:57,567 S1: It's we. So we found everything we could and we printed. We got a whole stack of different Adu stuff. We have the Boston one. So you stuffed it. Just informational stuff of people they ask I mean we have I got a permit on my desk. The guy is waiting for February 2nd. You know, my thing is I have to issue permits February 2nd. And we don't have generally we don't have a bylaw. So I am trying to not legally. I'm telling people that, you know, here's our special permit regulations, even though they don't really have to comply with them. Yeah, you know what I mean. It's kind of I'm in a tough position right now in both communities because we do not have a I do Hamilton of one, and we do not have a bylaw, a by right bylaw in either community that I've been screaming about since, um, you know, last summer. So, uh, it's kind of a tough thing, and I'm just kind of like trying to push. You know, I, I live in Georgetown. We passed a bylaw. I don't agree with everything in it. There's some good stuff in there. Like, I like the fact that the main entry shouldn't be seen on a on an Adu, that entry. And I like the fact that you guys are saying no separate utilities, Georgetown approved separate utilities. So now if you look at it from the street, you're going to see two meters, two doors. It just doesn't look good. I agree, it it it could ruin neighborhoods. Yeah. Um, I'm not sure how many people are going to build an Adu stand alone because the cost is unbelievable right now. The construction cost of 4 to $500 a square foot. So I'm not sure somebody is going to build one to make money. You never will. If you have parents that have money and they want to downsize, that's that's the freestanding ones you're going to get. Um, but yeah, I, I, I agree, I want it to blend it to my neighborhood. I'm not sure the way I by law passed in Georgetown. That's going to. I don't I don't like all the details of it. Um, I know Middleton passed one, Georgetown passed one. Uh, you know, I, I forget which town it is, but if you want a garage with the Adu that the garage requires a special permit requires more oversight. 00:39:06,901 S3: So that's that's where, again, I think education is is really great. And if the education ideally comes up before they actually come in with the drawings and looking for the application, it's when they're thinking about it. Do they have easy access to that educational document that guides them. And often it's for their own benefit? Um, what what I enjoyed about that process on the historic District commission is often we'd work together to figure out ways for the applicant to save money, save, save effort, save time, get where they needed to go. But it was it was a little bit more collaborative. And again, I use the example because chapter 43 has really no teeth in it. You know, it's it's it's it's very subjective. Yet you can when you use that technique of carrot I feel you can get good to good places. Um, rather than treating 40 seeds not a stick. It's a it's a carrot. So. 00:40:04,100 S1: Yeah, I just remarked, we met today for a couple hours and went over everything and talked, and I just wanted to put something in there saying that, you know, when you're an Adu in the historic district has to comply with the HDC regulations and review. 00:40:16,367 S2: So so we have to add that. 00:40:18,667 S1: I just thought it'd be a good in the general requirements when when you get the bylaw ironed out, you know, just something in there. 00:40:27,467 S2: So what you're saying is the the only time we could have site plan review if there was a second Adu on the property, a second Adu. 00:40:37,167 S1: If that's what you want to do on a second Adu or because you allow single family homes in the business district. You could, you could. I believe you could rely. You could require, um. Site plan review in the business district. 00:40:53,501 S1: Because it's a it's a commercial zone. But you do allow single family homes. So you could have an instance where you have two uses mixed use on a lot. They want to add an Adu. 00:41:06,367 S2: Okay. So those are two circumstances. 00:41:10,067 S1: Or you require the whole town to go on the site plan review. 00:41:14,000 S2: Well, given that there's not that much land left in Hamilton, it might not be the worst idea in the world, you know, because if we had site plan review. 00:41:22,100 S5: You said it's not. 00:41:23,100 S1: It's not quite done on those. And we can get town council to, uh, comment on that particular issue. Robin drafted a we have a just a rough draft for Wenham that we're reviewing that Robin. 00:41:37,968 S2: And did she have site. What were the circumstances for where? In Wenham. Where there was site plan review? 00:41:44,968 S1: There isn't on the Adu. The bylaw she drafted is pretty basic. 00:41:52,000 S10: You mentioned, um. It could be a site plan. An attached garage might trigger a site plan requirement or not. 00:42:00,801 S1: Special permit. 00:42:01,667 S10: Special permit? 00:42:02,601 S1: Yeah. So that was, um, I think it was Middleton or George Thumb, and they limited the two stories. Um, the other thing is that accessory structures and one of them have to be 20ft from the property where the primary structures are 15ft from the side property lines. So I just want to that's one of the things is we need to clarify that whether you're going to apply the primary structure setback 15ft or the accessory structure setback to the side lot line. Just something to think about. 00:42:40,167 S3: I mean, a lot of municipalities have a smaller setback to the side line than the print for accessory structures, than principle structures, I don't know. I haven't looked at what Hamilton has. 00:42:51,667 S1: Hamilton is 20ft for accessory structures. You get one. I think you get one shed. You know, the the exemption from the building codes 120ft². One shed can be five feet from the property line, side and rear. You still have to maintain the front setback. But in in what in Hamilton. So all other accessory structures detach. Accessory structures from the house have to be 20ft, unless it's a barn with animals and it has to be 50ft from all property lines. 00:43:19,968 S3: So some of the puzzles, for example, if you if you think of like kind of worst case scenario, let's say you have a small lot and it has three frontages. Right. That occurs. And then the one side or rear whatever, whichever you call the the fourth line is basically an alley. No place to put anything. Now you're in one of the front. You're in one of the frontages with your with your Adu. 00:43:43,367 S1: The big nonconforming mess. So yeah. Then then and then the by the state regs further go on to say that if you have um. 00:43:54,200 S1: If you require zoning relief of any form of zoning relief, it's got to be in the form of a finding for the Adu. It can't be a special permit for the buy right ones. 00:44:04,067 S3: So, um, but if it was a detached, say, the three frontage example, it's a detached building. Um, I guess what you're saying is if if the basic bylaw says you couldn't put an addition on that house in the, in any of those three frontages because you'd break the setbacks. The same applies for the Adu, but if you're within the setbacks, it can go on the face of one of those frontages as a snout, basically either attached or detached. 00:44:34,801 S1: It still would need zoning relief. So the thing is that you're not exempt from zoning dimensional requirements, right? They have to be reasonable. So if you use you can use the zoning setbacks you have now. And in that case there's some places with corner lots. Or maybe there's a couple in town with you might have three frontages. So they would need zoning relief. Form of a finding though you can't require a special permit. 00:44:59,567 S9: So there's no limit now on how many accessory buildings you have under lot. There's that building coverage requirements lot coverage. 00:45:06,067 S1: That's it. Yeah. 00:45:07,000 S9: So you can have like a guest house and a garage and a house. If you're under that threshold, you're okay. Yep. Yeah. 00:45:13,968 S1: There's many places in town with, you know, multiple barns and garages. 00:45:18,767 S4: House. 00:45:19,868 S1: Secondary residences and predate zoning. Sure. There were there was a I will tell you, there was a property in Danvers with four frontages. The Cumberland farms on 114 So that is in the state highway layout. So it has route one 114 and the on ramp. So it's completely surrounded by four frontages for street frontages. Kind of a bizarre when you think about it. You think could that ever happen. Yes. 00:45:50,801 S3: Well I know the three frontages happens right downtown here. Yep. 00:45:54,367 S2: So 00:45:57,000 S2: all right. Did anybody else have any further comments with respect to this. Because I think that that what I'm thinking is we need a plan. 00:46:05,000 S5: Yes. 00:46:05,868 S2: And here's the plan. I think. 00:46:08,367 S5: That. 00:46:08,667 S1: You guys need me any. 00:46:09,400 S5: More part. 00:46:10,667 S2: We need you a lot because you came in here and you didn't like what we did. So now I'm turning it to you. I think that, um. 00:46:19,467 S1: Not that I didn't like what you did. It just needs. 00:46:21,467 S5: It just needs to be. Well, it was it. It's. 00:46:23,467 S2: You have to get something on paper to talk about. You can't talk about things in the abstract. You have to have it on paper. So if there are no further comments about this, what I'm suggesting is that that you and Mark redo this and I will. I will if the board consents. I will also take part in this facilitating getting something really in good shape within a week, getting it to Robin Stein before our next meeting and our next meeting is on January 21st. But for us to get this, uh, Adu bylaw in final shape so we can do our memorandum to the select board so the select board can send it back to us so we can have our public hearing and this can get on the warrant. All of this has to be done by January 29th. So I don't think we have the luxury of having another draft come back to us on the 21st, then having the bylaw law. Go to Robin Stein for her review. We just ran out of time, so I think we have to have a lot more certainty by the 21st as to what we're doing and have. 00:47:41,767 S14: Could you try again? 00:47:42,868 S6: She's spying. 00:47:44,467 S1: We can, we can. Me and him can hammer this out in the next two days. If he's. 00:47:48,300 S5: If he's. 00:47:48,767 S2: Yeah. 00:47:48,968 S5: And not sure. 00:47:50,767 S2: And I'm happy to be involved because I'm a style maven. Uh, if nothing else. So, uh, if. And then I'd like to get it to Robin. Then it can come back to us. The board itself on the, um. I believe it's the 21st. Where's my schedule? Here on the 21st. And then the board itself can review the work product. Robin's comments. We finalize it all, and and, uh, you know, or get it close to final on the 21st. Subject to any further edits, comments, whatever. Um, so I know Mark had some comments, uh, that that that were good, but let's just I'm going to back up now though. So so the board is clear. So I'm a homeowner. I want to put an Adu on my property. I go to the to to your office and I get a form and I get all the guidelines. 00:48:57,968 S2: And then what you review the form. 00:49:01,367 S1: You sit down with the building inspector. That's what everybody does. 00:49:04,167 S5: So people come in and say. 00:49:05,701 S1: This is what I want to do. I say, come on in. We sit down, say, these are the zoning regulations. This is. 00:49:11,667 S5: What we're. 00:49:11,968 S1: Looking. 00:49:12,267 S5: For. 00:49:13,167 S1: Site plan, building plans. You know, the the level changes with whatever you want to do, whether it's a simple bathroom renovation and addition. Uh, Adu whether you got to go to the zoning Board of Appeals, we help people with that process. You know. 00:49:27,968 S2: We're talking about Aids. 00:49:29,300 S1: I know, I'm just saying what what we do every day is people come into us every day, call us every day. And this is what we do every day is help people out with through the building and zoning process. That's that's what we get paid to do. That's what we do. So when I see all this stuff, you don't need to get all this all the stuff in there about the steps and everything. It's you need a permit by Rite Aid to you. Uh, here are our regs. Um, and then the guidelines. Like what? What the town would like to see, you know. Um, but you put the things in there that you can control. Height of the building with maximum square footage. Um, your zoning regs are going to take care of just your regular zoning regs. Is going to take care of the small lots all by themselves. Yeah. 00:50:13,367 S5: What about. 00:50:14,100 S2: Someone who wants to put an Adu too close to the wetland or on a steep. 00:50:18,367 S5: Slope? 00:50:19,000 S1: They have to comply with. 00:50:20,367 S5: Master laws. 00:50:21,300 S1: Regarding septic and wetlands. 00:50:23,601 S2: And stormwater management. 00:50:25,901 S9: Yes. 00:50:26,400 S1: We don't do stormwater stormwater management on existing single family lots. 00:50:31,467 S9: Even if it's all. 00:50:32,567 S2: You do now. 00:50:33,801 S1: If you're in the wet, if, well, if. 00:50:35,767 S5: You disturb. 00:50:36,667 S1: If you disturb so much land, you do. 00:50:39,000 S2: Well. And also if you're building on a steep slope, I mean, we have a new stormwater management general bylaw and regulations. So for example, if you wanted to build those houses on Bridge Street again today, you'd be in before the planning board with the stormwater management, um, permit application, which I hope we get for the remainder of the lots because they're as steep as the existing ones. But so there's the potential that someone could want to put, or they the only place they could put a detached Adu would be on a slope that might require a stormwater management permit or a waiver of the stormwater management permit. So, you know, those are the things that I'm concerned about. And so how you know, so that the form would have a checklist. Have you satisfied all the provisions of this 3.6? That's what I, you know, all this stuff. And you would be looking that it's not 905ft². And we have to define, um, gross square footage in relation to what the executive office, how it wants to define it and how the building code defines it. So. 00:51:55,067 S1: Well, I think we have to adopt for just for the ADUs, you should just adopt all their definitions right out of their, their, their regs. Just adopt their definitions. You can either do it I talked to Mark about this. They may not mesh with everything you have in your bylaw. But you could go to definitions under Adu. 00:52:16,667 S5: And it's just and just. 00:52:18,767 S1: Go right out of the state regs. Put them all in there. These apply these definitions apply to ad use. And then you don't really have to um you could but look at your definitions see how they mesh with the ones for the state is saying for the 80. Those are specific for the Adu. 00:52:35,400 S5: Okay. 00:52:35,601 S1: So you don't get in trouble. 00:52:37,000 S5: Okay. 00:52:37,567 S1: So may not like some of the definitions that apply. Maybe you don't want them to apply to the rest of the zoning bylaw. 00:52:44,767 S5: Right. 00:52:45,167 S2: And that might be that might be the case because there were kind of issues with the executive offices definition. Right. 00:52:53,000 S1: But they're only right. They're written to promote by right housing. They just want to create housing. Uh, and they're slowly going to erase local zoning to get it right. 00:53:03,667 S3: So again, to tie a ribbon around, what my point was, is I think that we could streamline the Adu bylaw. Um, it doesn't we don't need to wrestle with it as much and get it in. Get it on the books. Get it in your hands. And then when we can take a breath, see if we can promote some type of easy, accessible, educational carrot that helps people toward doing the right thing, you know? And it gives the why, you know, it's not just like you must do this, but if you do this, it's going to enhance your own property value. It's gonna, you know, that kind of thing. So it's got to be for their benefit. They've got to they've got to just like your attitude, it sounds like in the in the office is how may we help you. You know. 00:53:53,067 S5: That's, that's that's. 00:53:53,801 S3: Got to be the tone of the of the guidelines. 00:53:56,200 S5: How may we help. 00:53:56,868 S2: Boston guidelines and whatnot. So you know. 00:54:00,067 S3: But the Boston guidelines are not well tailored to this town. So you could look at them for form and framework. But they are they're they're city guidelines. 00:54:09,567 S5: Right. 00:54:10,000 S3: Right. 00:54:10,200 S2: So well I mean that's that's an undertaking we could consider is to craft some guidelines just for this Adu. 00:54:19,300 S3: That's what I'm suggesting. 00:54:20,300 S1: I would say the architectural styles that are in there hand out on the on the, on town ones, you know what I mean. 00:54:28,100 S3: Know their city. It's a city oriented. It's a it's a great framework and organization, but it's for a city. And you could take that idea and the tone of it and adapt it to Hamilton in a much more compact form, in my opinion. 00:54:42,167 S5: Well, even. 00:54:43,000 S2: The historical, you know, district guidelines might be. 00:54:47,067 S3: Those are verbal. They're not visual. They're not visual. 00:54:49,868 S2: They're. 00:54:50,067 S5: Not. 00:54:50,300 S3: They're not visual. So, um, it needs to be a combination of words and pictures. It needs to be very simple and accessible. 00:54:59,467 S2: You have a really good idea of how to do that. 00:55:02,100 S5: So, you know, you just literally. 00:55:05,000 S10: Sounds like a volunteer. 00:55:07,200 S5: Let's do it. 00:55:09,868 S2: I think you dug a hole there, Jonathan, and you're going to have. 00:55:13,100 S5: To fill. 00:55:13,501 S3: In any event, but. 00:55:14,267 S5: That's fine. 00:55:14,767 S3: But the point here is that we've got to race against them. 00:55:17,467 S4: To make a motion. 00:55:18,467 S5: Martin. 00:55:19,667 S3: We've got a race against the clock to get this this bylaw in place. 00:55:23,767 S2: It's a race against the clock. So I think that that, you know, given your expertise with this and, and and this is a dramatic change, if you will, in the table of years regulations which empowered the CBA to deal with quote unquote, accessory apartment. So we're not just looking at 3.6. We have to look at the table of use regulations. And then if we delete 3.4 the conversion for temporary additional living area, then the numbering will also change. It won't be 3.6 anymore. It'll be 3.5. 00:56:03,567 S1: Yeah you can just 3.4 saved for future reference or whatever. 00:56:08,167 S5: That's fine. 00:56:08,767 S1: Renumbering everything. 00:56:11,767 S2: Right. So anyhow, I think that if if you and Mark have had good conversations and you understand, you know, the urgency of the January 29th date, then we need to think about getting this to Robin sooner rather than later. So if you have something in the next couple of days, I'll be happy to look at it. Um, and then we can go from there. And Robin, I know is, is, uh, she's offered to help us with this, and I think you didn't you have an issue about, um, we had an issue about. And you raised it, too. I'm drawing a blank on this. Um. 00:56:52,767 S4: I need to use. 00:56:53,501 S2: Yeah, I need to. 00:56:54,367 S5: Use. 00:56:56,000 S9: A. 00:56:56,400 S4: Lot of issues. 00:56:57,367 S9: Yeah, I spoke to her over the phone. Um, and this is a tricky process because we don't have final state regulations. They're only in draft form. They won't be final until the second, which coincidentally is the date that the log is into effect. Uh, so it puts towns in a position, an impossible position, or we can't meet that deadline. Um, without not knowing what the regulations are. So, you know, I did ask her some questions. The site plan review was one I answered directly. You know, can we permit it, even though I don't for, uh, 80 years. And she didn't want to answer that until the regulations are final. Um, I agree with Rick that the longer there is language in the draft regulations that would seem to say that you can't do that. 00:57:44,200 S5: Um, but. 00:57:45,100 S2: The statute actually says you can. 00:57:47,267 S9: So and they really emphasized there. 00:57:49,601 S2: So so, you know, this is the Commonwealth I think sometimes digs a hole. 00:57:54,667 S5: To. 00:57:55,200 S2: You know, they create these, these these, uh, mandates, mandates, if you will. And it just it backfires. Um, you know, because Conceivably. You know, there's a big difference between building a single family house on a lot and then putting. And it's we're really talking about detached ADUs, not the ones you know, that are in a house or right attached to it, the detachment you're putting another building there and, and, you know, in a, in, in on a lot that's say, if it's 20,000ft² in the R-1 district, well, you know, you're adding another unit there. It's not like you're starting from scratch and building a single family house. You're building an accessory dwelling unit on a lot that's the same size as the single family house. That's different. I mean, you could argue that single, that site plan review is applicable because you're exceeding, you know, the, the, the, the amount of the square footage applicable to the single family house, 40,000ft². One house. Now you're adding another one. So you're going to have site plan review in my view. You could make the argument at any rate, that site plan review was warranted for detached accessory dwelling units. 00:59:20,567 S1: Yeah, but it's not denial. So it's. 00:59:22,767 S5: And but see site to meet. 00:59:24,267 S1: All the setbacks. What do you gain in on the site plan review. 00:59:26,767 S2: Well I'm just saying but site plan review is not discretionary. So you couldn't have a type of review for ADUs that was discretionary. But site plan review was, you know, in many respects advisory. So I just throw that out. 00:59:42,868 S3: That goes right back to my point about the collaborative approach. You know, if you can get the conversation going early on and you've got a review process, you can't do it every time. But many times you can you can bring people around to do something that's better for them and better for the town. Yeah, but there has to be a dialogue early on, right? 01:00:05,000 S1: Yeah. I would say people that can afford a building detached Adu in today's construction market are probably going to build something pretty nice. Yeah. The one there's one on Essex Street that's on my desk already. He is waiting for February 2nd. And it's. He's going above an existing. Beautiful. It's on ten acres or something. Nobody's ever going to see it. 01:00:24,567 S3: But so often the issue isn't is the issue isn't the quality of construction. It's the it's position in relationship to the road and the neighborhood. That's the issue. 01:00:34,000 S1: This the first one we're going to issue by right is nobody will ever see it. Right. 01:00:38,267 S3: That's easy. That's the easy stuff. The hard stuff is when you get to the tighter lots. Yeah. You know, like a worst case scenario is you have, you know, multiple frontages and somebody can't afford an Adu. So they buy an oversized shed and they plunk it in the front yard. 01:00:51,367 S1: This neighborhood all the way over to, um, Asbury Street is the tough one. 01:00:56,200 S4: Right? What what would you be? What would your answer be to a pod site? One acre lot. They want to put an accessory unit up. 01:01:06,701 S5: That's right. 01:01:08,067 S4: And yet it's because it's in a pod. It's under a pod overlay mandate, essentially saying you need 80,000ft². Yeah. How does they how do they deal with that situation? 01:01:22,267 S1: Um, yeah. They may not be able to do it. 01:01:25,801 S4: So that's not as of right. Then it's overruled by the pod. 01:01:29,267 S1: That's right. So again you can't change the Board of Health Regulations. You can't change the wetland regulations and the groundwater protection district. That's something you just can't override. Yeah. So like I said, and then you have the, um, law coverage provision. So some, some people just won't be able to do it. 01:01:50,000 S4: Because I know when you start building up these overlay districts, you can only go so deep on these before you run into real problems with conflicts. 01:01:58,567 S1: So yeah. Is there. 01:01:59,400 S4: Any. 01:01:59,501 S1: Community. because it's like you can build a single family house anywhere in town, but you can't build it in the riverfront. You build it in wetlands. If your ground doesn't perk, you don't get to build the house. So those regulations kind of you can't override those regulations. 01:02:14,567 S4: Yeah. Right. Right. 01:02:16,667 S5: Well, that. 01:02:17,467 S2: It might be important to put that in the bylaw. 01:02:23,467 S5: Yeah. 01:02:24,167 S6: Absolutely. 01:02:24,901 S4: Yes. Because there's a lot of good sites here in town. 01:02:27,868 S5: Yeah. 01:02:28,567 S2: So I think that, that, that it's important to just make that clear up front. And so we have a plan. Let's stick to our plan. But there are these kind of loose ends. 01:02:42,100 S1: Right. We talked about that. It should be a footnote there that you you know, in the historic district, you have the. 01:02:47,467 S5: Historic District. 01:02:49,667 S2: Board. 01:02:49,968 S5: Of Health. 01:02:51,868 S1: Um, you know, there could be that that those caveats right up at the beginning and it can imply with Board of Health regulations and what land regulations. 01:03:02,267 S4: Do you need? You need to amend to say the bylaws for the body bylaw to indicate just to acknowledge accessory dwellings there or any of the others like the historic district? 01:03:15,701 S1: No. 01:03:16,367 S4: So they would all be handled under accessory. 01:03:18,567 S1: Yeah. They have a they have a footnote. They have something in the state regs that just says you have to comply with the HTC regulations in the community I saw that. Yeah. 01:03:28,100 S4: So if, if, if you do work on guidelines that that's since that will not be part of the bylaw that doesn't have the same deadline that we have with the bylaw in terms of getting it wrapped up. So if there are any guidelines and I support that fully having been part of that a lot. But, uh, because it it's better to get information in advance of any activity rather than later because people have a general understanding of what's expected. And I think everybody wants to sort of collaborate with the community. And so they're more apt to be persuaded to do it differently when they contact their designer if they are going to put up, you know, a freestanding Adu. So it makes sense to, to do that. Um, but, uh, so I agree with Jonathan's recommendation on that. That really is a good it's a good idea, but it doesn't have to happen right away. I mean, it could it could follow because it probably doesn't have to go to town meeting. 01:04:24,767 S1: Yeah. As soon as we get the bylaw in place, a better off. Yeah. Again, I'm trying to coerce people into into the regulations we have on hand, even though they could fight that. But I'm just going to say, well, these are the regs. Yeah. 01:04:39,000 S2: Well, then the other thing that probably should be in this bylaw, though, is that if if there's any dispute as to your determination with respect to the building permit, well, that's covered in 10.2. I think that the any appeal from your decision goes to the CBA. So in the the 2016 table of use regulations, then that has to be amended. So the accessory apartment 3.6 if we use that numbering the Zeba has to be deleted. And that has to be a row of yeses wise and. 01:05:14,567 S5: Well. 01:05:15,100 S1: I guess you would you would do, um, I guess you would put a line item in there. Adu so you could still have ADUs by special permit if, um, say, somebody wants a bigger one, do you want to let that buy special permit, or do you want to just say you'd have to get a variance. Mhm. 01:05:33,167 S5: Um well. 01:05:35,601 S2: Yeah. See the definition of Adu right now is 900ft². 01:05:40,567 S1: Well that's the limit. That's what the state's allowing by right. Y'all can you can change that if you want by. 01:05:47,400 S4: But you can't call it an aide to you. 01:05:49,200 S1: That's the city's saying 50% of the house. 01:05:53,000 S4: Staying in two houses, then. 01:05:54,968 S1: 50% of the square footage of the existing house, or 900ft², whichever is smaller. The state saying that's that's what you have to adopt. You can go more. Yeah. But some community I think Georgetown is it's but. 01:06:08,367 S4: It doesn't become an as of. Right. And it's not an as of right. And it becomes a different name. 01:06:12,367 S5: You know. 01:06:12,667 S2: Actually you would almost need two lines than accessory dwelling units pursuant to 3.6 and accessory dwelling units that exceed. 01:06:26,767 S1: But by special permit. So you get the buy right ones that stick to the state regs. Or you could say, well, you know, I got a house on five acres. I got a 5000 square foot house on five acres. I want to do an Adu for my mom and dad, maybe have a sliding scale. And that's by special permit. 01:06:43,667 S2: Yeah, that's a that's almost a variance, isn't it? That's a variance from the underlying zoning. You're basically putting another house up. 01:06:51,968 S4: It's not an Adu. 01:06:52,868 S5: It's a it's a house. Yeah. You just call it house. 01:06:56,000 S1: I'm not saying it has to be a separate dwelling unit, but it could be in the house. 01:07:01,367 S5: I'm just saying how that's something to work. 01:07:03,567 S1: Some of you guys going to make a decision on it? I really don't care about that. I'm just saying. 01:07:06,767 S5: That. 01:07:07,167 S2: I'm just. 01:07:07,767 S5: Saying 900ft². 01:07:09,067 S1: For a lot of people is not a lot of room. 01:07:10,767 S5: So. Right. 01:07:12,000 S2: So. 01:07:12,467 S1: So you could still leave ADUs in by special permit that exceed the by right ones. 01:07:18,267 S5: That's all. Yeah. 01:07:19,567 S1: And you could fix a number on that. Or you could say, you know what, 900ft² is good enough for our town. So that's it. See you later. Eliminate the special permit provision. 01:07:27,167 S5: No, I get it. 01:07:28,367 S2: You could. You know, I see that because I think that would work. 01:07:33,000 S3: What I would also foresee is a lot of places where they need the Adu. They've almost got the setbacks, but like, not quite they have to break a foot into the setbacks or something like that. And then I guess it would be zoning board variance. 01:07:45,868 S1: The variance. Yeah. Or if the if the structure is nonconforming then it's a finding, right? 01:07:51,167 S3: And that could happen a lot downtown here. 01:07:53,467 S1: And this this part of town. Yes. What happens? Yeah. Yeah. Every time somebody wants to do something and then everything's nonconforming. Yeah, yeah. 01:08:00,767 S4: Do you have the definition of gross square footage that the state uses for. 01:08:05,367 S1: You with the. They have a whole definition section. And that's why my recommendation is just to adopt all their definitions. And you could do it specific in your definition section. Right. Uh, can you. 01:08:21,000 S4: Can you read what they have. 01:08:22,167 S1: Though and just have all the state definitions underneath that? 01:08:26,067 S4: What can you just read what they have there. 01:08:28,267 S1: It's like a 2 or 3 pages. 01:08:30,868 S3: Just asking for gross square foot. 01:08:32,100 S4: Gross square footage. Not all of definitions. 01:08:34,601 S1: Just one. Oh I'm sorry, the. 01:08:35,767 S4: Gross one definition. Yeah. 01:08:38,501 S1: That's actually one of the definitions. 01:08:40,100 S9: Gross floor area. 01:08:41,100 S1: Yeah. 01:08:42,067 S9: Uh, some of the areas of all floors of the building, including basements, cellars, Mezzanine and intermediate floor tiers and penthouses of headroom. Height measured from the exterior faces of exterior walls or from the centerline of walls separating but excluding covered walkways, open roofed over areas, porches, and similar spaces. 01:09:04,267 S4: How are you going to squeeze that into a 900 square foot if you're counting all of those areas? Yeah. Does that make sense? 01:09:09,901 S1: No, it does not include porches. 01:09:11,901 S4: No. Forget the porches. Basements. Attics. 01:09:15,367 S1: Habitable. Yeah, yeah. That's not much. 01:09:19,901 S4: That eats up a lot of area. I mean, that tells you slab on grade up on piers. 01:09:25,067 S3: Well, they do say they do say headroom. So you could do a crawl space, but they don't define headroom. 01:09:29,801 S1: Well we would use it. We use the building code okay. So six foot eight is a habitable headroom in a basement in Massachusetts. Yeah. 01:09:38,501 S4: Right. 01:09:38,801 S3: So you could. 01:09:39,267 S4: Do anything less is a crawl. 01:09:40,467 S1: Space is not considered a habitable space. Yeah. 01:09:44,300 S3: So then you could get around that that constraint. Just follow the building code. 01:09:55,167 S1: You just can't be more restrictive than that, right? You can change that if you want. It just has to be in the. 01:10:01,767 S4: But that doesn't even comply with the state building code for gross. Currently that definition. 01:10:07,701 S1: Does not include unfinished basements and attics. 01:10:10,501 S4: Or garages. As I understand it. 01:10:12,968 S1: It doesn't say anything about the garage because we had a we had a special permit Adu on Woodland Mead that was pretty big when you looked at the whole big picture of the front porch, back porch, garage, and I couldn't say yes or no whether that was that counted. Yeah. It wasn't very clear about the porches. And that was one of my things saying that, you know, that's one of the yeah, you don't know you have a problem until you try to apply it. 01:10:38,300 S4: No, exactly. 01:10:38,901 S1: I thought the gross square footage definition needed some work. Yeah. It looks like the state one isn't that good either. 01:10:44,667 S4: No. 01:10:46,567 S3: So if somebody did an Adu one year with a giant porch and then came back the next year and asked for a permit to enclose the porch, that never happens. Um, I wonder how that would play with the state bylaw. 01:11:04,367 S1: Yeah, the town would have to reject it if if you knew. But you may not know. Um. 01:11:11,167 S6: Do you get a variance? Just the Adu itself. 01:11:15,267 S1: You can always ask for a variance. Uh, I know Hamilton doesn't like to give them. So, yeah, you can ask for anything you want, whether you get it. That's a that's a different. 01:11:27,100 S5: Okay. 01:11:27,467 S10: Good idea to leave the special permit process for anything exceeding this. 01:11:30,567 S5: Yes. 01:11:31,267 S2: Yes. And that would be by. 01:11:32,701 S5: The way that. 01:11:33,067 S10: Makes. 01:11:33,167 S5: Sense. 01:11:33,467 S2: CBA do that. So I think we're good. Let's move on. And I'm going to take something out of order. We do want to talk about section 10.6 site plan review, but I want to skip since you're here rich to your, um, uh, proposed revisions. Okay. And I think I sent, uh, everyone a draft, a draft of a memorandum to the select board, uh, highlighting your proposed changes that that. Patrick. 01:12:12,100 S5: Yeah. 01:12:12,567 S1: I really got changes. They're all errata. 01:12:14,767 S2: Yeah. So I don't know if you've had a chance to look at the memorandum. I didn't do anything with respect to the map because I thought the map, uh, there's just the wrong map on the town's website. Is that. 01:12:30,300 S5: It? 01:12:30,601 S1: Yes. It just needs to. We need to get the map. 01:12:33,868 S2: The correct map. 01:12:35,100 S1: To somebody that's going to edit it. 01:12:37,167 S2: Yeah. So my understanding, Learning from Mark and Robin is that if the mistake is on the town web page, you don't need to do any type of bylaw amendment to fix that. So I think your Map question mark is okay, we don't need to worry about. 01:12:56,968 S1: We just need to get a new one printed with that. It's that block of land between one A, the MBTA rail line, Cutler Road and the Ipswich Town line that that big chunk of land got rezoned in 1999, but it never showed up on any zoning map. So. 01:13:14,801 S2: Okay, so so I addressed all of your issues in section four. 01:13:23,100 S1: The only one that's not a router is the gross square footage. 01:13:26,968 S5: Right? Right. Well. 01:13:29,267 S2: Was this errata? I think the elimination of the 50. 01:13:32,367 S5: That's. 01:13:32,801 S1: Oh yeah. That's the other. That's just confusing. I never use that. I think that was written at a time when there might have been a lot of dirt roads in town. There were questions about lot lines, but we're pretty sophisticated now. Every you know, we require a certified plot plan for any kind of addition. So that's really a vestige of the past that is confusing to people. Yeah. 01:13:54,601 S5: Just use a. 01:13:55,167 S1: 25 foot front setback from the front property line. 01:13:58,267 S5: Yeah. 01:13:59,267 S2: I let me check something here. 01:14:19,200 S2: Well, the table of dimensional regulations in the 2006 bylaw says Zeba. And so the planning board was substituted. 01:14:32,267 S5: Well, that's. 01:14:33,200 S1: When the Zeba was a site plan Authority. So at some point the Planning Board became the site planning authority. So your dimensional requirements from the B district are all set on the site plan. There are no set dimensional requirements. 01:14:47,868 S5: Right. 01:14:48,367 S1: In the B district. 01:14:49,400 S2: So so so actually then I don't have to I don't have to worry about that. That's just well. 01:14:57,868 S1: The 50 foot thing is, is the is in the front setback for all the residential. 01:15:02,167 S5: Zones. 01:15:02,667 S2: That has to be. That's a that's a zoning amendment. 01:15:05,968 S1: That's a zoning amendment. Eliminating that that language and just sticking to the 25 foot front setback. 01:15:11,467 S2: But the planning board was just. 01:15:13,467 S5: Well, even that's errata. 01:15:17,567 S1: The planning board is the site plan approval authority. The table never get changed whenever that switchover was. 01:15:25,667 S2: I, I. 01:15:26,801 S5: Still. 01:15:27,467 S2: I'm not clear whether we have to do that as a zoning amendment or not. 01:15:33,567 S1: At some point it was it was voted at. 01:15:36,667 S5: Times. 01:15:37,000 S2: I understand that, I'm just wondering. 01:15:38,868 S1: Nobody ever changed the table, that's all. So all you're doing is we don't send anybody to site plan. We don't send anybody to a site plan at any point. 01:15:48,067 S5: Right, right. Right, right. 01:15:48,868 S1: Table is wrong. 01:15:50,467 S2: At one point, Robin said that the errata had to be, you know, part of the. I'm not sure where she stands on this. Do you have a recollection whether this kind of a right. I thought we were going to try and do the whole bylaw, fix all the errata. And she said that that would have to be a zoning amendment. So I'm not clear as to whether the substitution of the planning board for the CBA would require a zoning amendment. I mean, it's going to be a consent agenda, right? 01:16:22,267 S5: You know. 01:16:23,000 S2: So I don't I think it's no harm, no foul by putting it in the memorandum. Uh, we're doing the 50 foot anyway. 01:16:31,467 S5: Yep. 01:16:31,801 S2: So. So that's that's clear. And then, um, the. 01:16:41,000 S1: There's just some other language in there about the, um, the exempt uses. They had the wrong numbers backwards. One a, one b um. 01:16:55,200 S1: And the site plan or the amended site plan or. Um. 01:17:01,100 S2: Where is this? 01:17:02,367 S1: That was one of my other the errata. Somebody had the numbers mixed up on the, um. 01:17:11,701 S1: It might have been the third or fourth. 01:17:13,901 S2: At 10.6 and 10.7. Yep. We're taking care of that. So that's what we're redoing the whole site plan review by law. And so um, this 10.7, those were all bad references because we had the wrong table of use regulations, so we're taking care of that. I took care of the signage. Um, I don't know if you saw that. 01:17:41,968 S1: Yeah. You can't limit, um, First Amendment signage, which. 01:17:45,100 S5: Was. 01:17:45,367 S1: A political science, so this can't put any limit on it. 01:18:03,367 S2: So I had I took care of that in the special regulation the 25ft from. I did everything you said. The only thing I haven't done is the definition. 01:18:16,868 S2: You wanted to amend the definition and, and and I, I basically didn't have a rationale for that. Um. 01:18:27,968 S1: If you like most of the stuff you find when you find mistakes in the bylaw, it's really when you're trying to somebody ask you a zoning question and trying to apply it and you say, oh, this doesn't work. So that's where the Grow Square footage question came up. What we can do is we can just go to some other bylaws and see what other people have. That's all you do is find something that you think fits good for the town a little more complete. The one we have isn't complete. The one the state has seems like it has some holes in it too, so we'll see if we can put something together that's a little better and submit it for everybody's review. 01:19:00,467 S2: Could you just give me some verbiage, a little more verbiage as to why you want to for the benefit of the Select board. Amend the definition of gross floor area residential. 01:19:14,567 S1: Again I there was a Adu by special permit on Woodland Mead right. So they came in and it was pretty big. You know, it seemed like it violated the 900 square foot provision, so it had an enclosed garage. It had a front porch and a back porch. Full basement. And it just seemed like, you know. And then he didn't count the hallway. The architect didn't count the hallway, an enclosed hallway because he said it wasn't heated. And we're arguing over the definition. I go, well, I go. So that's at that point. I said, this definition is terrible because they're building a second house. I mean, clearly it's it's it's huge. Yeah. And, um, so I wrote a memo to the zoning board saying, you know, I, I think I found five, five other detached accessory structures at the zoning, uh, accessory dwelling units. The zoning board had granted, and they were all small and very compact. And I made a memo to the zoning board saying, well, all the ones you've issued have been pretty small. This thing is massive. It looks like a bungalow, you know, stand alone house. And they granted the relief. But at that point, I just said that that. That's where that memo came from. That the the the square foot definition really has a lot of holes in it. 01:20:36,200 S2: So you want the definition to read the area of residential structure used for living space, excluding unfinished basement and attic area. 01:20:45,501 S1: I didn't write one. I just said we need to come up with something. 01:20:51,000 S2: Oh well, I can't. 01:20:52,167 S5: I. 01:20:52,767 S1: Gotta put that in. I just said, we need to come up with a. 01:20:56,000 S2: Okay, well, I can't recommend anything for it to be put on the warrant if I, if I don't know what it is. 01:21:01,767 S5: I mean, like I said. 01:21:03,667 S1: We'll do some research. We'll look at some other communities of use in and see if we can find something or tweak it, that it might fit our needs. 01:21:11,901 S5: That's all. Okay, but for the. 01:21:13,167 S1: Aid, but for Ada use going forward, we have to use the state definition. 01:21:16,968 S2: Oh right. Right, right. So I'm just saying if you want to amend that definition that appears in section 11. Just just let us know. Because as it stands now, this memorandum to the Select board incorporates, um, I believe, all all the information that you provided. Patrick, if you want to double check what you sent and and against. 01:21:43,667 S5: That. 01:21:43,767 S1: Might have been that might have been Patrick that filled that in, but I never. 01:21:48,667 S5: Okay. 01:21:49,167 S1: I just said that I think the definition. 01:21:50,868 S5: Needs to be worked. 01:21:52,200 S1: And maybe Patrick had put something together. 01:21:54,567 S2: Okay. The only other thing I noticed in the materials that Patrick sent us, um, and I don't know if you have it in front of you. It's under section 4.1.5. You didn't mention this in your memo, but in that section, the last sentence is deleted. Since you didn't mention it, I didn't mention it, but it says no accessory building shall be located closer than 25ft from any dwelling or main structure on a lot, unless both structures conform with regulations. 01:22:37,100 S5: Relative to fire safety. 01:22:39,067 S1: That's my note. That's again, that's a vestige. We didn't have a state building code till 1975. So that is something in the zoning bylaw that the building code addresses. So it's just something redundant. We know it's something that, um, has no meaning. 01:22:57,067 S6: It's a placeholder. 01:22:58,767 S5: That's all. So it's a, it's. 01:23:00,868 S1: It's a hangover from the past before we had a state building code. So the state building code addresses fire separation distances. And so it doesn't mean anything. We don't pay any attention to it. So it's a waste of ink. That's how. 01:23:13,868 S10: I. 01:23:14,000 S5: Put it. 01:23:14,367 S2: Okay. I can add that to the memo. We'll delete that. 01:23:17,567 S5: Yeah. 01:23:17,968 S1: It's obsolete. 01:23:19,467 S5: Okay. 01:23:22,267 S4: So there is no proximity requirement for ADUs. 01:23:26,901 S1: Except that was accessory. Any accessory building. Yeah. So ADUs are not considered a. 01:23:32,267 S4: So they would have to be fire protected in the event they're really. 01:23:35,000 S1: Considered a it's not considered two families. We're having this battle. 01:23:40,000 S4: Yeah. 01:23:40,667 S1: So the state wants them to be built. Yeah. Easily. So, 01:23:46,701 S1: you know, buildings have to be set ten feet, some magic number. You know, buildings have to be separated by ten feet. If they're not. Then as you get closer, there's fire separation requirements. Right. They have to be minimum three feet from a property line if they're not. Yes. 01:24:00,868 S4: Yeah. Exactly. 01:24:01,400 S1: From 0 to 3ft in the fire separation requirements. You know window door openings are controlled closer. You get to a lot line and closer you get to another building. But if the your building's on your lot, there's really no fire separation. And I don't think the state cares. They don't really want us to treat the ADUs as a second unit with fire separation. Yeah, it's kind of weird, but. 01:24:26,667 S3: Yeah, I was reading a number, five feet that they would allow them to be apart from each other. Principal building in Ada. Oh, which is insane. 01:24:34,767 S4: That's amazing. Along the same line I noticed in your special regulation, the averaging setbacks. Um, no building need to be set back more than the average setback of the building on either side, a vacant lot being counted as though it's occupied by a building setback of 25ft. Uh, so if you have if you have a neighborhood with a the preceded the codes and the houses are set back 50ft, then does that mean an 80? You can't go within 50ft. 01:25:04,200 S1: So you used a setback. It's when you're too close to the property line. We just used this on 123 Asbury Street. 01:25:12,801 S4: Oh, I see if you had a 12 foot setback. 01:25:14,801 S1: So He was doing dormers in the houses in the setback, so he had to have a survey and shoot the house next door on either side. Right. And his dormer wasn't any closer to the street than the house on either side. So we got to put that dormer in without going to the Zoning Board of Appeals. 01:25:32,467 S4: So if you had two houses on either one house on either side. 01:25:35,467 S1: Just meet the current zoning setback at. 01:25:37,467 S4: 12ft off the property line on the front front yard setback. 01:25:41,701 S1: You can be 12ft from the. 01:25:43,300 S4: Wow. Okay. 01:25:44,667 S1: Yeah. So that's the street averaging. It's good for neighborhoods. Yeah. Again that we're in it. Um, a lot of communities have provisions like that. 01:25:53,267 S4: Okay. 01:25:53,868 S2: Okay. So the plan with respect to this memorandum, Rich. Take another look at it. Make sure it's complete. Um, if you want to add anything to it or delete anything, I'm going to, um, amend the memorandum to delete that last sentence of Point five, which you said is just no longer has any meaning. 01:26:17,467 S1: Not relevant. 01:26:18,067 S5: Yeah. Okay. 01:26:19,100 S2: So we can vote on that at this memorandum at our next meeting and we'll get that. Um, so you any comment you have with respect. Any edits, any more detailed rationale than the one I came up with? Uh, you know, please just let me and Mark know, and I can amend this memorandum, and then we'll vote on it, um, at our next meeting, and we'll get that off to the select board. So this. So, so your edits can be placed on the warrant? I think the map is not. I think that's probably okay because the map exists. The correct map exists. It's just never was put on the web page website. So other than that I think we're in good shape on that. So, um, I unless you want to comment on, uh, text section 10.6. 01:27:09,901 S1: Um, no, it was just irrorata. 01:27:12,567 S5: Right? 01:27:13,367 S2: That's all. Okay. Yeah. And we picked up on that. So when, uh, when we amend the. Well, when we get the correct table of use regulations up on the town website, those mistakes that you picked up aren't mistakes anymore. 01:27:34,467 S5: Good. 01:27:35,567 S2: Okay. 01:27:41,267 S2: All right. 01:27:42,467 S1: You guys done with me? 01:27:43,868 S2: We're done. 01:27:44,400 S5: Thank you. 01:27:45,100 S2: Thank you very much for coming in and providing us with insight on what we're doing. 01:27:55,167 S10: Everybody, have a great night. 01:27:56,567 S5: You, too. Stay warm. 01:28:00,467 S2: Okay. Next item on the agenda. Um, site plan review. 01:28:08,367 S2: So, 01:28:12,100 S2: What you have in front of you is a draft. The red lining that you see just ignore. Um. The document itself is not red lined. Um, for some obscure reason, when I made some real quick edits at the last minute, the red lining showed up when it was downloaded. Not when I actually, um, was looking at the document. So, um. 01:28:38,767 S2: It's now time for discussion. But the key components of this amended, um, site plan review are the requirement of a pre-application conference so that, um, uh, we can avoid problems before they arise. And then, um, this, uh, I eliminated in section ten.6.4. Projects requiring approval. There was a requirement for any alteration or extension of a non-conforming commercial, industrial, or institutional structure in a residential district, which. 01:29:32,000 S2: You know, I don't know if there are any, but be that as it may. The Zoning Board of Appeals is charged with dealing with pre-existing nonconforming uses in 10.3, I believe. So why that provision was in, um, 10.6 is is kind of a mystery to me. Uh, it really shouldn't have been in there. Um, So if you look at 10.3 and I think, um, Mark printed it out, um, under ten.3.3 powers, uh, the Zoning Board of Appeals shall have the power to hear and decide applications to alter a non-conforming use or structure. And it doesn't reference residential, industrial, commercial or anything else. So. And also, more importantly, section five of our bylaw, um, specifically addresses pre-existing nonconforming uses. And um, refers to the Zoning Board of Appeals as making findings with respect to pre-existing nonconforming uses. And and I've looked at section five before, and I actually if we had the time. I would like to have addressed this because it requires the Zoning Board of Appeals to make findings with respect to pre-existing nonconforming uses if they're letting them go forward, but there are no standards for how they should make that finding. What are they basing their decision on? There's nothing. There is nothing in the in the bylaw that would inform anyone what that was all about. So that was a significant change. And then other than that, um, it was just an attempt to sort of pull apart the requirements that were already in the bylaw and just enumerate them more. I mean, there seemed to be in the bylaw 2 or 3 requirements in one paragraph, and I just made them three for clarity. So I will let you know that I. I sent this draft to Aimo for his comments and and so his input is reflected in this document. So I now open it up to any discussion. 01:32:16,467 S3: Do you want to kind of go through page by page, or do you just want to hear random comments? 01:32:21,701 S2: Um, if you want to go through page by page, I'm happy to do that. That's that will certainly make things easier. Um, I don't. 01:32:29,400 S5: Know to. 01:32:29,868 S3: It all, you know, we could look at like page two and I'll say, do we have any comments on page two? You want to do it that way? 01:32:35,601 S2: Sure. Well, we'll start at the beginning. Anybody have any problem with the purposes? 01:32:48,567 S2: We can go section by section. So, um. 01:32:52,667 S3: Well, if nobody has a problem with page one, why don't we just. 01:32:56,267 S5: Okay. 01:32:58,501 S2: Page two. 01:33:00,701 S3: I had a comment. Under ten.6.3. Pre-application conference. 01:33:05,267 S5: Okay. 01:33:05,901 S3: Um. Second sentence. Second line. Rather says the applicant shall confer with the planning board. Um, do we want to be a little more specific about that and say, meet with the planning board during a regular scheduled meeting? Like, that's what it says in the senior bylaw. Um, rather than just confer, because that seems so. 01:33:26,267 S2: Do you want me to just use the language that's in the senior housing bylaw? 01:33:29,667 S3: Yeah, that might make sense. 01:33:30,567 S2: Okay. 01:33:38,167 S2: I don't know if that language is in the open space and farmland development bylaw as well. 01:33:44,267 S3: I'm not sure, but I know it's in one of them. 01:33:49,167 S3: It's basically the gist of it is regularly scheduled meeting. Yeah. Um, and then I have a question under, uh, 10.6. Let's see the new number here. Um. 01:34:05,100 S3: The abbreviated site plan review. The original bylaw had something about. 01:34:10,567 S2: Where are you? I'm sorry. 01:34:12,567 S3: Um, I'm on page two. 01:34:13,667 S5: Oh, yeah. Okay. 01:34:14,767 S3: Projects eligible for abbreviated site plan review. Original bylaw. Had an entry up regarding greenhouses. 01:34:24,267 S5: Um, right. 01:34:25,667 S2: And we looked at that, and it and it didn't make any sense, so I took it out. 01:34:31,100 S5: Okay. 01:34:31,901 S3: So I just wanted to make sure that everybody was okay with that comment. 01:34:35,567 S5: Did you think it made any sense? 01:34:37,000 S3: I didn't really understand it. 01:34:39,000 S2: I didn't understand. 01:34:39,968 S5: It. 01:34:40,300 S3: But before we take it out, you know, I don't want to repeat what happened with dwelling Unit versus, you know, a lot. 01:34:47,467 S5: You know. 01:34:47,667 S3: Somebody somebody changed that without understanding what the intent. 01:34:50,667 S5: Was. Okay. 01:34:51,367 S3: So maybe it's unclear. But before we just take it out, we might want to figure out why is it there? 01:34:56,601 S2: Okay. All right, I will. I will read that. Now that is ten. 01:35:01,000 S3: We have to resolve it right now. But it might be interesting to figure out where did that come from? I mean. 01:35:07,367 S4: You're talking about the 10%. 01:35:08,767 S3: To. 01:35:09,501 S4: 10% formulas. Yeah, yeah. 01:35:15,601 S2: Yeah. But this is what Jonathan is referring to for the purpose of applying this guideline. It's really not a guideline. It's the. 01:35:26,267 S5: Bylaw. 01:35:27,100 S2: When ground floor area includes a detached residential floor area or attached commercial greenhouses, the area of the residential or greenhouse portion shall be deducted before applying the 10%. 01:35:47,601 S4: That makes no sense. 01:35:49,601 S6: Is it because greenhouse. 01:35:51,000 S5: Why is it? 01:35:51,667 S3: Yeah, but what are they after there? Yes. The sentence makes no sense. But what are they? What are they trying to manage? There is the question. I don't. 01:35:58,801 S4: Know. Yeah. 01:36:01,300 S3: What's the fear? 01:36:02,167 S1: That's. 01:36:02,901 S4: I thought that we were going to take that out of. 01:36:05,000 S2: We did take it out. Jonathan is asking why we took it out. Somebody took it out because it didn't. 01:36:10,467 S5: Make any sense. Yeah, that's. 01:36:11,968 S3: Right. That's what I'm. 01:36:12,601 S10: Asking. The old florist used to be down on the way. 01:36:15,667 S5: What's that? 01:36:17,868 S7: Was a what? A florist area constitute a greenhouse. 01:36:22,467 S3: Again, the puzzle is. How did it get in there to begin here? What was what problem was it trying to solve? You know, yes, it's a horrible sentence, but it's meaningless. But what problem was it trying to solve? 01:36:35,000 S2: Well, you know, that's the thing. 01:36:36,367 S5: I mean, it's. 01:36:37,000 S3: You just want to be careful when you deal with these bylaws that you know that you don't do something to hastily. That's all. 01:36:46,968 S2: Um, I'm looking at the. 01:36:49,400 S3: Odd thing is a perfect example. 01:36:51,467 S2: It was in the 2016 01:36:56,000 S2: bylaw. But what you know, it's hard to. I understand your question, Jonathan, but it's it's hard to find the answer to that. 01:37:04,767 S3: Right. I mean, maybe somebody like Mitchell would know what the heck that means or I don't know, who knows, but I don't have a problem getting rid of it. But I just I'm just being cautious, that's all. 01:37:15,667 S2: Well, I get that. I mean, I, I could. Let me see if I can find it. Um, maybe it's in the 2012 version of the which I have. 01:37:30,367 S2: Well, let's go back. I mean, I. 01:37:31,868 S5: Could spend too much time. Yeah, yeah. 01:37:33,801 S3: It's a puzzle. 01:37:34,801 S2: It is a puzzle. 01:37:35,601 S4: Oh, because it didn't make any sense to me anyway. 01:37:38,467 S5: Yeah, I, I. 01:37:39,767 S10: Think the concern. 01:37:40,367 S7: Is that there was a purpose for it. 01:37:42,267 S5: Yeah, yeah. 01:37:42,868 S6: Put it one time. 01:37:43,968 S7: Put it in there making no sense unless there was a purpose for it. 01:37:46,467 S3: Yeah. And what was the purpose? 01:37:47,767 S7: I understand that before we move it. 01:37:49,267 S5: Yeah, well. 01:37:50,000 S7: I agree. 01:37:50,467 S5: But. 01:37:50,767 S4: The. 01:37:50,868 S5: Way it was a. 01:37:51,467 S2: Problem is, is to to. You know, if it goes back too far in time. We don't we don't have a way of doing that. I mean, our bylaws are not in, you know, it's almost impossible to find this stuff. And if all these prior iterations of the bylaw are are in the town hall, we can't access them. And I don't know if you have ever gone to the town website and tried to ascertain what happened at town meeting. You go, you search for the warrant, but the appendices are not necessarily attached to the warrant. So, you know, there was a change to the inclusionary housing bylaw. Okay. Do you know how I figured out the language? Because I wanted to double check what the language was, that we changed. I had to listen to the YouTube video from the April 6th, 2018 teen town meeting. So, I mean, these are nice academic exercises, but, you know, we can leave it in and it doesn't make sense. 01:38:56,367 S3: Point is not to get lost on it, but just maybe there's maybe we could ask a little. 01:39:01,067 S10: Seems like I mean, it just it just seems like they're trying not to penalize you for the floor area of the attached greenhouse. Greenhouse supporting agricultural use, like it might have been that, um, Meadowbrook Farm or something like that. With the attached greenhouse. I thought a property. I think. 01:39:16,701 S5: The. 01:39:16,801 S10: Only way I could make sure it's not including that when you're taking your 10%. Yes. 01:39:20,200 S4: That's like that's the only way I could interpret it that they're actually saying deducting the amount you're going to add. Yeah. 01:39:26,667 S10: Don't count the greenhouse. 01:39:27,667 S5: Yeah. 01:39:27,901 S6: Yeah. That makes sense to me. 01:39:29,267 S4: That's the only thing I could. 01:39:30,267 S2: Well maybe. 01:39:30,767 S5: We could. 01:39:31,267 S3: You could just say greenhouses. 01:39:32,601 S5: Don't apply toward them to. 01:39:33,901 S2: Make. 01:39:34,100 S5: That make. 01:39:34,501 S3: Sense. That'd be a simpler way to say it. 01:39:36,000 S5: Yeah, I. 01:39:36,868 S10: Mean, it. 01:39:37,467 S5: Is. 01:39:38,901 S10: That clear? 01:39:39,400 S3: Yes. But rather than just deleting it. 01:39:41,467 S5: Well, if. 01:39:41,868 S2: You can come up with language. 01:39:43,400 S5: That sort of like fixes that. 01:39:46,467 S7: Don't apply. 01:39:48,367 S2: If you want to. If you want to take a stab at it. Send it to me and I'll. Yeah, I'll include it. Okay. Page three. 01:39:58,367 S9: Just one quick thing for back to 10.63. I would just add two sentences. One would say ten.6.3. 01:40:07,868 S5: Yes. 01:40:08,267 S2: We were going to use the language from the senior housing bylaw. 01:40:12,067 S5: Yes. 01:40:13,868 S4: Or confer. 01:40:15,467 S5: Yeah. 01:40:16,067 S2: Yes. Hold on. That that senior housing bylaw 8.2. 01:40:22,200 S6: You said it belongs in section ten. .3.3. That's where you. 01:40:28,267 S2: Oh I'm sorry. Start over. I'm confused. 01:40:32,067 S9: Uh, for the 10.63, the pre-application conference. 01:40:35,400 S5: Right, right. 01:40:36,100 S9: Yeah. I would just add two sentences. One saying, um, the planning board shall be empowered to adopt regulations Concerning pre-application conferences. So you might want to have like a one page application form or a checklist or something like that. Um, where I've worked in the past, there was like a nominal fee they had to pay. Um, and then another sentence I would recommend is something along the lines of the, uh, the contents of that conference shall be non-binding on the applicant and the board. So the board can be really honest with the applicant and say, like, we hate this and don't have to worry about that coming back. 01:41:13,667 S4: I think that's what the senior housing says. 01:41:15,567 S5: Yeah. Let's see. 01:41:17,100 S4: Yeah. 01:41:17,968 S5: So. 01:41:20,267 S14: You'll need to unlock your iPhone first. 01:41:22,100 S5: Yes. 01:41:23,567 S3: The non-binding piece I think is really key. Mm. 01:41:33,167 S10: Yeah. Because tobacco had a pre application being right that was there. They were pretty upset about. 01:41:40,467 S3: No comment about that. That was before I was on the board, but I watched it. Yeah, I would have had some things to say. Had I been on the board. Yeah. 01:41:51,767 S10: I watched the importance of language of non-binding. Yes, whatever. 01:41:56,300 S2: Where is that language? 01:42:02,767 S3: I picked up a diagram of that layout. Went home, looked at a GIS, and I said, oh, I won't repeat the word. Yeah. 01:42:15,467 S3: Just look at the GIS like that. 01:42:17,267 S5: Yes. 01:42:20,267 S3: Then I watched the the pre-conference discussion and. 01:42:57,868 S2: Where is that pre-application conference at 8.3. 01:43:02,501 S4: Maybe they went to one. 01:43:04,300 S3: I don't have it in front of me. 01:43:06,100 S4: You may have referred you to eight. 8.1 the open. 01:43:09,100 S3: Space. It might have. Yeah. 01:43:14,367 S3: But it's definitely in there. 01:43:15,901 S2: Oh, here it is. It's 8.1.7. 01:43:18,367 S5: Yeah. 01:43:32,100 S2: I'm not sure we would want to use all that language in this site. Plan review. 01:43:38,300 S3: No, but the term during a regularly scheduled meeting, I think is better than confer. 01:43:44,300 S5: Yeah. 01:43:45,100 S3: And then non-binding I think is absolutely key. Mhm. Um, and then you set a checklist of what needs to be submitted in, you know, what you should bring with you in that conference. 01:43:57,000 S9: Yeah. I think you could have a sentence saying the planning Board shall be empowered to adopt regulations concerning requirements for pre-application. 01:44:11,167 S2: I will amend that language mark, and run it by you. 01:44:15,567 S9: Okay. 01:44:17,100 S2: Um, so are we ready to move to page three? 01:44:21,400 S5: Yes. 01:45:41,067 S7: Are bullets four through nine supposed to be sub bolts of three. Last sentence in three says total replacement as such as destroyed building shall require. 01:45:51,567 S2: I'm sorry. Where are you? I didn't hear the first three. 01:45:54,067 S7: Ten. Six. Six. 01:45:55,467 S5: Yep. 01:45:56,267 S2: Ten. Six. 01:45:56,868 S5: Six. 01:45:57,367 S7: Four through nine. Are they supposed to be sub components of three? Just because the way the three ends. 01:46:04,567 S6: Like three a, three b. 01:46:06,400 S7: Yeah. 01:46:07,667 S3: Are you looking. You're looking online. Does it look like this. 01:46:13,000 S7: Yeah. Let's see how it says right here. Total replacement of such a destroyed building shall require. 01:46:17,868 S3: Oh, I see what you're saying. 01:46:18,968 S6: That's a semicolon. So it's not a colon. So that's that makes it different. 01:46:23,367 S4: But the way it ends. Sounds like there's a subsection there. 01:46:26,167 S6: Yeah, it does, but only because it appears to be a colon. But it's actually a semicolon. 01:46:30,667 S4: It's a semicolon. 01:46:31,567 S6: So you don't need to do a subheading. Okay. Right. 01:46:35,267 S4: Shall we acquire what then? 01:46:37,100 S2: Yeah. Something's got left up. 01:46:43,567 S4: Yeah, I think Jeff was on to something there. 01:46:46,167 S2: Something got left. 01:46:47,100 S5: Out. 01:46:47,400 S6: Maybe it should be a colon. And then there should be a sub. 01:46:50,501 S7: Yeah, I'll end with a semicolon. Is that just. 01:46:52,701 S10: Yeah. 01:46:54,000 S7: Formatting. 01:46:55,300 S4: So the error is that the semicolon should have been equivalent. 01:46:58,501 S5: Yeah. 01:46:59,868 S6: And then. 01:47:00,868 S4: And then the others. 01:47:01,667 S6: Get ABC or. 01:47:02,667 S4: Whatever. Get indented. 01:47:03,868 S6: Yep. 01:47:04,100 S3: Yeah. There was some words missing I think. 01:47:22,000 S2: There's just a word missing. It shall require. Site plan review. 01:47:29,868 S4: Well, okay. 01:47:30,868 S10: Yeah. 01:47:35,767 S10: Good catch. 01:47:42,167 S7: The last sentence in eight is in. And? 01:47:47,067 S7: The last word. I'm or. 01:47:51,467 S4: That's that's just introducing the last item though. 01:47:55,100 S10: Just telling you the next one. Yeah. Yeah. 01:47:57,400 S7: Okay. 01:47:59,100 S2: And then nine. It should be the table of use regulations, not the table of uses. I just noticed that. 01:48:09,467 S10: In case. 01:48:09,701 S4: You. 01:50:18,367 S7: On page five, it goes. 01:50:21,100 S10: The alphabet is a little screwy. There it goes. M m o p to the m n o Okay. 01:50:28,767 S3: Skip the page there. 01:50:29,868 S10: No. I'm sorry. 01:50:32,968 S3: Are we ready to move to page four? 01:50:40,667 S2: Oh, it should just be an end. Not an em. The rest of the numbering is fine. Uh, is page three okay? 01:50:47,501 S6: Oh, yeah. 01:50:48,100 S5: Yep. 01:50:48,601 S6: I don't see. 01:50:49,200 S5: Anything. 01:50:49,567 S2: How about page four? 01:50:51,567 S3: Page four. Uh, two. The middle of the page. Location of all existing structures within 50ft of the property boundaries. Um, that could be confusing to be interpreted as structures within the property boundaries where really what it means is abutting lots. And the question is where to insert that phrase. So is it location of all existing structures? Comma on abutting lots, comma within 50ft of the property boundaries or something like that, just so that it's not misinterpreted stupidly is structures within the the um the subject lot. 01:51:29,767 S2: So location of all existing structures on abutting lots within 50ft of the property boundaries. 01:51:37,601 S3: Some commas in there so that it's not abutting. Lots aren't within 50ft. Anybody remember the Saturday Night Live skits with the misplaced modifiers. Mhm. The tall blonde woman with the red dress strode in with the pink purse or something like that. And the purse is wearing the dress and things like that. 01:51:56,767 S2: Modifiers are read it to me the way you want it. Uh, stated with the punctuation. 01:52:03,667 S3: Uh, this is a thought, but, uh, wordsmith might outvote me. Location of all existing structures, comma on abutting lots, comma within 50ft of the property boundaries. So a wordsmith might outvote that. 01:52:20,167 S2: I would say no comma location of all existing structures on abutting lots. 01:52:26,868 S5: Actually on the first. 01:52:28,868 S2: No no first comma on abutting lots. 01:52:32,067 S4: Common at all. 01:52:33,100 S3: But you don't want the lots to be within 50ft. It's the structures within 50ft. So you've got two two clauses in there that. Yeah that's the problem. So does the woman wear the dressers. Does the first word address. 01:52:46,767 S4: So you could put on a budding lots after property boundaries. 01:52:53,167 S2: Um maybe on abutting lots location of all existing structures within 50ft of the property line. Property boundaries on abutting lots. 01:53:04,868 S5: Is that. 01:53:05,467 S4: Yeah. Yeah. Then you got the modifier is changed. 01:53:08,567 S3: It was called First Draft Theatre. 01:53:12,968 S5: Okay, good. 01:53:16,567 S2: Are we ready to move to page five? 01:53:18,667 S5: Yep, yep. 01:54:12,200 S3: So on page five. Number three detailed landscaping plan depicting existing large trees. Large is often a debated subject. 01:54:23,601 S2: Oh, mature? 01:54:25,200 S5: Yes. 01:54:25,567 S3: No, but you might just do something, a caliper. You know, trees over x inches or something like that. Well, it's not debated. 01:54:35,000 S4: 12 inch caliper. Nine inch? Yeah. 01:54:42,000 S2: How would you write that? 01:54:43,100 S4: Nine inch caliper? Um. 01:54:45,567 S5: Nine inch. 01:54:46,868 S4: Scale. 01:54:48,901 S2: PR caliper trees. Nine inch caliper trees. 01:54:55,367 S6: And greater nine inch and greater and greater. 01:54:59,767 S2: Depicting trees. Larger. 01:55:02,567 S5: Larger than. 01:55:03,501 S2: Larger than nine caliper. 01:55:06,467 S3: Nine. 01:55:06,767 S5: Inch. 01:55:07,200 S2: Nine inch caliper. 01:55:10,400 S10: Is that common to measure that that manner? Yeah. Different worlds would have different thicknesses wouldn't they? 01:55:16,901 S3: No, they just measure the truck with the caliper. 01:55:20,100 S10: You couldn't have a skinny tree that's really, really tall. 01:55:22,767 S3: Yes, but that they measure caliper. 01:55:31,667 S4: It's a minor thing, but on r q r s r mechanical equipment, which is a mechanical and electrical or electrical. 01:55:39,567 S2: Where are we on. 01:55:43,901 S4: Number R. 01:55:46,167 S6: Oh, yes. 01:55:48,067 S4: Oh I'm thinking of new batteries and any kind of electrical piece of equipment that. 01:55:56,467 S10: Could you say building services. 01:55:59,067 S4: Building services. Yeah. Because yeah. Could have could be other things. 01:56:05,300 S10: Yeah. 01:56:06,467 S3: Building services. Equipment. Yeah. That's good. 01:56:09,868 S4: So help me cross out mechanical and say building services equipment. 01:56:16,267 S5: Okay. 01:56:18,767 S3: Well, we have the expert here. 01:56:21,267 S10: I don't know about that. 01:56:38,267 S10: I might be. Uh, do we have any? 01:56:42,467 S10: Uh, sound study a decibel like the, um, current versus proposed sound. I don't know if there's anything related to acoustic study. 01:57:00,467 S5: But, uh. Let's see. 01:57:03,367 S2: We said, if applicable, an operational plan that includes the following information. Um, that should be a lowercase b. Um, we might put there, uh, something about noise. 01:57:19,300 S5: Yeah. 01:57:20,367 S10: Physical study. 01:57:22,367 S3: If applicable. 01:57:24,367 S2: Um, well, you wouldn't necessarily want to acoustical study if warranted, owing to. 01:57:32,968 S9: Outdoor uses or. 01:57:34,567 S5: What's that? 01:57:35,367 S9: If you had, like, outdoor uses, like, uh, outdoor seating or something like that, uh, or if it was a type of use where you'd expect noise like a log splitting. 01:57:46,400 S3: Yeah. 01:57:46,767 S9: Restaurant, perhaps. 01:57:48,501 S3: Yeah. Club. Cabaret. Uh, yeah. 01:57:51,868 S10: Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. The previous building you put, you build the building and you put a bunch of loud equipment on the roof. Yeah. 01:57:59,501 S3: Yeah, that's true too. Yeah. 01:58:00,567 S5: Yeah. 01:58:01,100 S10: Study of the pre and post. Like, was your impact of the project being on. 01:58:05,200 S2: Um, do you want to send me some language to that effect. And that would, would, would that be like? Why? Uh, you know, on page five, it would be, uh. 01:58:20,501 S2: Uh, we could put it right after x, y. Um, probably, if applicable. Um, or. Um. 01:58:41,300 S3: I mean, do you want to list out what could be. Because you're talking about mechanical equipment. You're talking about operations. You're talking about sports. You're talking about. 01:58:49,601 S10: A method of construction during. 01:58:52,467 S3: Yes, that's that's a stretch. But yes, it came up. 01:58:56,300 S10: That does come up. Yeah, it certainly does come up. And there's regulation. There's some. Right. You can't be more than. 01:59:03,100 S4: They. 01:59:03,667 S10: Add to ambient. 01:59:04,968 S4: At the road. It can't be more more than I think ten decibels or something greater than. Yeah. Otherwise you need a. 01:59:13,267 S3: Maybe we do. Including but not limited to. 01:59:15,567 S4: You could say if it exceeds ten decibels, maybe what the average number of decibels is for a typical road. 01:59:22,167 S3: Right. But in terms of what you're measuring, it might be includes but not limited to. And then do the list. 01:59:28,868 S4: Mhm mhm. 01:59:30,567 S2: So this would be. 01:59:31,667 S5: An. 01:59:32,000 S2: Acoustical. 01:59:33,100 S3: Was just a big list that we just rattled off. Yeah. 01:59:38,267 S10: Could you give some examples. 01:59:39,467 S3: Of blasting. 01:59:41,267 S10: Some examples. 01:59:42,067 S5: Yeah. 01:59:42,567 S2: So an acoustical study. 01:59:44,868 S3: Pre and post or pre uh pre during and post I don't know raise your baseline. 01:59:52,000 S10: Well that would be two. That would be two different lines would it. One would be pre and post. Another would be during construction. 01:59:57,067 S4: Yeah. Construction time is the worst. 01:59:58,667 S10: And then in acoustics to analyze the impact of you know the construction period. And then also monitoring of a model of, you know, the the impact as it relates to the operation of. 02:00:16,868 S5: Yeah. 02:00:17,667 S10: Whatever. But I can try to come up with some language Mark. 02:00:22,000 S2: It might have to go in two places. 02:00:24,000 S5: Yeah. 02:00:24,601 S2: Um, that would actually be X, because I think why in the should the last item should be in the legend, but, um, yeah. Send that to me as soon as possible so it could go. 02:00:36,067 S3: Um, so. 02:00:38,200 S2: It could go in the operations as well. 02:00:43,801 S5: Yeah. 02:00:45,868 S10: Yeah. Right. 02:00:47,067 S3: Examples including but not limited to before. 02:00:56,667 S15: When an acoustical study be included because we're looking at the section um we're looking at two are correct on page five, and section two refers to a location map, and I'm not well versed in these areas at all. But what an acoustical study. Be on the map. Just in terms of placement. Where this goes, it would be okay, cool. 02:01:20,667 S10: The study would analyze points as it relates to the location of the set. 02:01:25,400 S15: Okay. 02:01:26,067 S3: Condenser was on a lot line. Done. Problem. 02:01:28,367 S15: Got it. Thank you. 02:01:35,400 S3: Egress door to a cabaret. Was aiming at an apartment building. 02:01:40,267 S15: Understood. 02:01:42,801 S4: I remember there was one one comment about photometric data down to a 10th of a foot candle, but it didn't give the intervals, and I, um. But they're pretty standard. Uh, I mean, it's in the order of 20ft on center or something like that. 02:02:06,100 S3: Professional society that has that standard. 02:02:08,300 S4: Something like that. Yeah. So typically when you see a grid of numbers for the photometric chart there at particular intervals, that standard. 02:02:18,567 S3: Organization that would provide that. 02:02:20,100 S4: I know, but probably I mean, I could look at it, I could to find out where, what section that was in. But I remember going across coming across that. 02:02:35,300 S3: So we're jumping back and forth between 5 and 6. So is six on the table now? 02:02:42,167 S2: Yeah, we're on six. 02:02:43,667 S5: Okay. 02:02:44,000 S2: So I think we need to talk about sound in two places though. And I don't know if we can say decibel levels or likely to exceed, um. 02:02:56,467 S5: You know. 02:02:57,000 S4: Ambient levels at the street level or. 02:02:59,100 S5: Something. 02:02:59,567 S2: Yeah. Ambient levels. Existing ambient levels. Is that too. 02:03:04,367 S5: Vague? 02:03:04,667 S3: Is it somewhere else in the bylaw? 02:03:06,267 S2: No, there's not one. I've never seen it in a bylaw. And, you know, to the extent that. I mean, I'll be honest with you, I was looking at Middleton's bylaw. I googled Middleton and I got Middleton, Wisconsin, which is a which is a fairly big city. So. So some of this list is from there, not Middleton. And and trust me, they didn't consider sound. And you know, actually it's forward thinking to think about sound because there have been studies that show that people who have been exposed to high level of noise over time suffer negative health consequences. It's a really, really stressful. And that stress can contribute to, you know, all sorts of health issues. 02:03:56,100 S6: So do we have a I, I think we have a bylaw on glare. 02:04:01,067 S2: We do have. There's something in our Bible. 02:04:03,467 S6: Include. Just light. It's noise. It's a junk in the yard. It's all kinds. 02:04:09,567 S5: Of. 02:04:09,767 S2: I think we do have something in our Bible on noise. 02:04:12,968 S6: It's called glare glory. 02:04:16,300 S5: And I remember in six. 02:04:19,100 S6: Let's look. We do have noise. Ordinance two. We do have a noise. Um, a fairly recent one. 02:04:25,367 S10: What's this thing with floodlights? That's why they. 02:04:27,567 S5: Ring the. 02:04:27,767 S6: Bell. Yeah, that's called glare. 02:04:29,300 S5: Okay. 02:04:30,701 S4: Actually, glare is specific to light though, not junk. And it is it's relation of differences in lighting levels on adjacent properties. It establishes glare. 02:04:41,300 S3: Because I think is a pretty good, um, bylaw on there. 02:04:45,667 S4: Yeah. 02:04:48,267 S3: In the office we call them prison walls. 02:04:51,567 S6: Oh. 02:04:54,100 S3: No kids. 02:04:54,667 S10: License. 02:04:57,167 S10: I apologize, I have to have a hard stop at nine. Thank you. Sort of trying to get home. 02:05:02,801 S5: Okay. 02:05:03,167 S6: Good night. 02:05:04,100 S3: Good night. 02:05:04,501 S5: Get that. 02:05:05,200 S2: Uh, Pat, if you see anything else in here, just shoot. 02:05:09,100 S10: Shoot. I had a couple a couple of things I wanted to. I'll shoot you guys. 02:05:13,167 S5: Yeah. Thank you. 02:05:13,901 S2: Darcy. Is it a is it a general bylaw on noise, I think. 02:05:17,601 S6: Um, I think it is a general. Yeah, and it's not that old, right? 02:05:21,200 S2: Yeah, well, look that up. 02:05:22,467 S6: It was, um, because of dogs barking, but it can apply to anything. 02:05:25,801 S5: Right. 02:05:26,701 S2: Interesting. 02:05:27,567 S5: Okay. 02:05:28,167 S3: Yes. So we should coordinate them if possible. 02:05:30,167 S2: Yeah. We can just reference the, um, general bylaw on that. Okay. Can we move on to page seven or not? 02:05:37,701 S5: Page six. Sure. 02:05:40,100 S3: Um, item five, prospective renderings of the proposed project and or photos of similar structures may also be submitted, but not in lieu of drawings showing the actual intended appearance of the building. What I would add there is, but not in lieu of accurate scale drawings showing the actual accurate scale drawings showing the actual intended appearance of the buildings. I don't think they need any. They don't need the orthographic projection. They just need to be to scale. 02:06:08,767 S4: Yeah. Otherwise you get what we saw on 133 Essex. 02:06:11,567 S5: In lieu of accurate the entrance. 02:06:15,601 S2: In lieu of accurate scale drawings showing the actual intended appearance. 02:06:19,367 S5: Okay. 02:06:23,367 S3: And that doesn't preclude, like we said, orthographic projection. Well, you could do a scale drawing that's a isometric or something like that. And that's accurate. 02:06:34,267 S4: That's actually what um util has done on some of their isometric. They're accurate but they're not perspectives. Yeah. 02:06:44,367 S3: That was it on six for me. 02:06:46,467 S2: Seven. 02:06:48,868 S3: Um, seven has a repeat. Um, So the 50 to 50ft from the property. So whatever we came up with for wording on the previous one, we just repeated. 02:06:59,868 S5: What number. 02:07:01,167 S3: B would. 02:07:01,767 S5: Be. Thank you. 02:08:00,267 S6: What are parking stalls? 02:08:03,868 S9: Parking spaces. 02:08:04,868 S5: Spaces? 02:08:05,467 S6: Okay. I've never heard that before. 02:08:07,567 S4: It's not usual. 02:08:09,367 S5: It's put. 02:08:09,801 S2: Spaces. 02:08:10,367 S5: Then. Yeah, let's put spaces. 02:08:15,467 S4: Where is that? 02:08:16,267 S6: It's on K. 02:09:14,367 S3: So jumping ahead, put them backwards. The next page talks about. Please. Oh, sorry. On the, um the next page it talks about snow removal under operations. But the question is in the list of, um. 02:09:34,000 S3: Elements being shown in the plans. Do we want to mention snow shelf? No. Any snow shelves, for example, again on 133 S6, they were completely absent. There was no place to put snow. 02:09:47,667 S4: Yeah. 02:09:52,467 S4: As procedures for snow removal. 02:09:54,200 S3: And so in other words, you've got the obligation. 02:09:57,200 S4: To remove it completely from the site or store it on the site. Yeah. 02:10:01,767 S6: So they have to be specific about what they're. 02:10:04,400 S3: So you've got it covered in one place. It's sort of duplication. But do you want to add it under elements as well as operations. It's a question. 02:10:15,100 S4: You can say snow removal procedures in places. 02:10:19,000 S3: Yeah. You could do that to. 02:10:32,200 S5: Proceed. 02:10:32,701 S3: So I cheated it. That gets you over to the page eight sorry. 02:10:36,467 S2: Procedures for snow removal or storage. 02:10:39,901 S5: Yep. 02:10:45,067 S5: And I. 02:10:45,601 S2: Think we'd have. 02:10:46,267 S5: To add. 02:10:46,767 S3: If we're on page eight. 02:10:48,868 S2: We'd have to go back and make sure that, um. 02:11:01,701 S2: All right. 02:11:04,167 S3: We're done with seven. 02:11:06,501 S2: Yeah, we're on eight. 02:11:07,567 S3: Okay. On eight. The letter D after abbreviate ten.6.9. Site plan review and abbreviated site plan review. 02:11:16,968 S5: Oh. 02:11:18,267 S3: Just a typo. 02:11:29,667 S9: The last line of page eight. I think I would, um, eliminate the ability to waive the requirement to provide an electronic copy of the application. That's very standard these days. 02:11:44,300 S6: Could you repeat that? 02:11:45,367 S2: I didn't hear that either. 02:11:47,367 S9: Uh, so the bottom of page eight. There's a there's a sentence that says the planning board could waive the requirement for an electronic copy of the application. I would I would just eliminate the ability to waive that because. 02:12:00,167 S2: Could you give us the section number? 02:12:02,501 S3: It's the last sentence. 02:12:04,267 S9: 10.6 ten two. 02:12:07,067 S4: Two. Yeah. 02:12:08,567 S2: Oh. Delete unless waived. 02:12:10,167 S5: Okay. 02:12:13,767 S2: Oh, and and Mark, I didn't fill in the copies, the number of copies or any of those things. So if you look at that and ascertain what you want in terms of copies okay. Because, um. 02:12:29,701 S2: To tell you the truth, I wonder if we're even getting those copies. I think with with the 133 Essex copies weren't provided. I mean, I always ask Patrick for hard copies, but I don't think he had seven hard copies. It would have been very expensive. 02:12:49,367 S5: To. 02:12:50,000 S2: Produce. 02:12:50,567 S4: Expensive set. 02:12:52,167 S2: So, um. 02:12:53,467 S3: So on this page. 02:12:55,000 S2: But could I just finish? So, Mike, you could look at this in terms of what you think is appropriate in terms of hard copies versus digital. It may be that, you know, there could be some provision that they just if someone wants a hard copy, they paid a copy to make the copy. 02:13:15,200 S5: Mhm. 02:13:15,868 S10: Mhm. 02:13:17,567 S2: Because if the planning board used, you know, has to make a copy on one of those big machines that are in Mary Ellen Fenner's office, that's probably expensive in the big scheme of things. I mean I would think it would cost probably $10 or more to produce just one set of those big drawings. And I could be all wrong on that. That is a total guess. But to have those big sheets of paper and rolls and print them out, how much would that cost to. 02:13:45,300 S5: Hundreds market, hundreds. 02:13:46,767 S3: Market rates? Hundreds of dollars. Yeah. 02:13:49,968 S4: Yeah. 02:13:51,100 S3: It's not really what it costs, but that's what the. 02:13:52,901 S6: Market, what they. 02:13:53,567 S5: Charge. Yeah. 02:13:55,467 S2: Yeah. So, I mean, there could be some provision for that. Um, the problem is it's really hard to see in on a small digital screen. You really you really can't see it. 02:14:10,467 S6: So maybe they could do at least one and then. Yeah. And then have the digital. 02:14:17,000 S2: Yeah. They can provide the digital. And to the extent people want copies they pay for them. But you know, maybe some people wouldn't want to be bothered with the copies. I mean, I have I have the big roll from 133 S6. 02:14:31,200 S5: Okay. 02:14:33,701 S2: I wonder what I should do with it. 02:14:34,868 S5: So. 02:14:36,400 S3: Um. 02:14:37,501 S4: It's in my basement, holding up the floor. 02:14:41,767 S3: I have a question about the footnote two at the bottom of the page. 02:14:47,267 S2: Oh, Office of disability. We don't have an office. 02:14:50,567 S3: That's three. 02:14:52,100 S2: Oh, sorry. 02:14:53,000 S3: The request for findings of fact. And the checklist will need to be updated to reflect the amendments to section 2.10 points. 02:14:59,000 S2: That's because site plan review actually has a request for findings of fact and a checklist. And if you remember when the fire chief came in and Brian Stein came in, we were reviewing a request for findings of fact and a checklist. It's on our website. Our web page. 02:15:20,467 S3: Okay. 02:15:22,767 S2: And mark you, you're on top of this because you sent around a memo. 02:15:27,267 S5: Like. 02:15:27,801 S2: 2 or 3 meetings ago saying that you basically can play with any of these applications to get them up to speed, and they don't have to be approved at town meeting or anything like that. They're really administrative. 02:15:44,267 S9: So yes. And our forms are like circa 1989. So they need to be updated. 02:15:50,367 S2: Well, you know, speaking of updating, um, the, uh, Planning Board regulations for special permits. 02:15:59,267 S9: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:16:01,400 S2: Bad. Remember, that was the whole issue in 133 ethics, whether we could even rely on those regulations. And we did. We were told that we could, but they were certainly not, um. 02:16:16,267 S5: You know. 02:16:17,567 S2: Up to date on 1069. 02:16:21,567 S10: I mean, for sure removed. I'm sorry. Should we replace a reference to his as the applicant? 02:16:30,767 S2: Really? That went see. 02:16:34,267 S6: Her at their expense to. 02:16:37,000 S10: The applicant's expense because everyone else says the applicant, except for three and four. 02:16:41,901 S5: Wow. 02:16:43,100 S3: Good catch. 02:16:44,167 S2: Good catch. 02:16:49,267 S15: One other recommendation in that same section, uh, three, four and five essentially say when the planning board deems it necessary, but in different ways, just as a matter of form. Maybe we could pick one of the ways and just go with that. 02:17:03,801 S5: Oh, right. 02:17:06,067 S15: Yeah. Maybe change. 02:17:06,868 S5: When deemed necessary for. 02:17:08,901 S2: Change. Three. 02:17:10,467 S5: Yeah. Yeah. 02:17:24,200 S5: Okay. 02:17:35,200 S9: Just kind of a comment on the two sections. We just went through ten, six seven and ten, six, eight. Um, those sections start off by saying, you know, they're basically the minimum requirements for an application. And, uh, they start off by saying the planning board can waive any of these items. So I think what you could do, it's a totally optional. But um, like Ipswich does this. They there's a sentence that says the planning board shall have the authority to adopt regulations concerning site plans. What what is a minimum site plan application. And then you have a separate document. That's the site plan regulations. And the only benefit of that is a lot easier to change them. So if you want to make a change, you don't have to go to town meeting and go through. Just have a have a public hearing and the planning board owns those changes. Um, because I think these, these things that we list are pretty non-controversial and I don't. I think my sense is the town would be willing to kind of give you that authority. 02:18:37,701 S3: They also use up a lot of space in the in the bylaw that prevents you from getting to the meat of the matter very quickly. So it would really streamline things. So I favor that. 02:18:48,767 S2: So, so you're you're advocating just putting the contents in regulations. 02:18:56,300 S5: Yep. 02:19:00,267 S2: Now I have a question though. Now with our stormwater management bylaw we had regulations. The regulations were what required the public hearing. 02:19:15,667 S2: So I don't know. I mean I can see why you would put them in regulations, but we can't just change regulations. We have to have public hearings on regulations. 02:19:24,467 S9: Yes, you do have to have a public hearing, but it's still easier than town meeting and that whole process of going to the attorney general and. 02:19:32,367 S2: Well, you know what? I I'll take these edits that, that we're talking about now, and then I'll send that document to you and let you, you know, see how you want to use that with respect to regulations, because it's getting late here and I and I, you know, don't I can't sort that out in this document right now how that would actually work. 02:20:01,067 S5: Okay. 02:20:01,367 S2: I'd have to be at my computer, you know. 02:20:04,367 S5: Sure. 02:20:04,701 S2: So, um, once we get this document in good shape, I'll send it to you. And then we can have two versions, one the way it is and one putting in the regulations. But if we do put it in regulations, we've got to develop the regulations. I mean, we if we have a bylaw and no regulations, we're nowhere. 02:20:26,667 S5: Yes. 02:20:27,467 S2: So we've got time problems here. 02:20:30,868 S9: We wouldn't be losing these. We'd just be kind of copying them over into another document. Right? Yeah. 02:20:35,167 S5: Right. Yeah. 02:20:36,100 S2: But we'd have to have the public hearing on the regulations at the same time as the hearing on the. 02:20:42,167 S9: We would. We'd have to figure out how that would work. But yeah, we'd have to line it up. So as soon as the AG, as soon as the changes go into effect, we have a public hearing to adopt the regulations. 02:20:54,000 S5: Right. Yeah. 02:20:56,167 S2: So those are logistical issues. So are we on page where are we? 02:21:01,667 S5: Nine. 02:21:03,567 S10: Could that first sentence be and or departments. 02:21:18,868 S10: Rather than or. 02:21:22,567 S5: Mm. 02:21:24,767 S2: I probably should be. 02:21:27,167 S5: And yeah, yeah. 02:21:29,567 S2: Not war. 02:21:30,400 S5: And yeah. 02:21:32,567 S4: It's not an option. Yeah. 02:21:38,167 S2: I think I'll take out comment there. Comment shall transmit. Well transmit. 02:21:43,267 S5: There comments. That's okay. 02:22:00,300 S10: 1010. Six. 11. Item one you have the seven copies there. And I'm not sure if you want to remove that or not. 02:22:09,601 S10: Do it. 02:22:11,200 S5: Yeah. 02:22:11,501 S2: I'm going to let Mark, you know, sort through the copies and all that that just will. We'll note that. 02:22:23,167 S6: On number two where you've you've got the and above the above listed boards and officials instead of or. 02:22:31,968 S2: Right I got that. 02:22:36,200 S2: And officials. 02:22:37,868 S5: Yeah. 02:22:44,467 S10: Is there inconsistency or maybe I misunderstood. Between the top line item three it says transmit their comments in writing to the planning board within 35 days. And then in ten, six, 11 on item two it says the above list of boards or officials shall transmit their comments in writing within the Planning Board within 30 days. Are those two separate things that are referenced in the same? Should they both be 35 or 30? Or is that. 02:23:11,767 S5: Well. 02:23:12,400 S2: The 30 is for the abbreviated site plan review. 02:23:16,100 S5: Okay. 02:23:16,467 S2: And I took this from the existing bylaw. I didn't make it. You know, it wasn't something that. 02:23:23,801 S3: So maybe their comments are supposed to be abbreviated and take less time. The words. 02:23:29,067 S10: Are. 02:23:34,868 S3: Abridged and unabridged. 02:23:42,567 S2: Okay, are we almost done? Because we have a number of items on our agenda and we are past 9:00. 02:23:50,567 S6: Well, if we do find something after the fact, we can always. 02:23:54,167 S2: Shoot me an email because we will consider this again on the 21st. So everyone, please study it carefully. Because, you know, I know that there are some typos in here. I will get the comments that I have, um, in a document and get that document to mark so that he can then be the owner of it and and make whatever changes he thinks are appropriate with respect to putting some of the required content in regulations, and also adjust anything with respect to the number of copies or digital, this or that. So. 02:24:39,467 S2: I think. 02:24:45,267 S2: That the standards um. 02:24:50,667 S2: You know, those are important to consider. And then let's see. 02:24:58,267 S2: The hearings and decisions, that's really um. 02:25:06,267 S2: All the information on page ten, except for the first paragraph that has seven in front of it. All of that is from the existing bylaw. 02:25:45,100 S2: So unless anybody has anything more to add here, if you think of anything, get it to me in the next day or so. I will be working on this probably on Thursday. Um, and I want to get it to Mark quickly and it will become even more clear, as I alluded to, what our deadlines are for, um, getting the memorandum to the select board for the select board to transmit it back to us and for us to hold a public hearing. So. 02:26:22,901 S2: Any more discussion on this site? Plan review. 02:26:29,167 S4: Nope. 02:26:29,868 S2: So so Pat's going to get us some language on noise, but our general bylaw might answer the question. If our general bylaw on noise answers the question, it'll just be a reference to that. I mean, if you're you know, we might just say you have to demonstrate instead of talking about an acoustic study. Switch it around and say demonstrate compliance with the bylaw. 02:26:57,300 S2: Okay. 02:27:00,167 S2: So. 02:27:07,367 S2: Unfortunately, I think our discussion of the form based code in the comprehensive plan for the Downtown. Um, might have to await another day. Um, I checked the website today. Still no decision from from the Supreme Judicial Court on three a it's ironically, it's three months to the day. October or November. 02:27:33,100 S5: December. 02:27:34,901 S2: Three months to the day. So, um. But no decision. 02:27:43,167 S5: So. 02:27:44,767 S2: Emo, did you want to comment at all on on your, um. 02:27:51,100 S2: Your slide. 02:27:52,100 S5: Deck? 02:27:52,467 S4: Sure. I sent some slide deck to, um, Mark this afternoon, and, uh, uh, this was, uh, to be background information to begin the discussions. But, you know, in consultation with Jonathan on this, we decided to make it a homework assignment for members to give you plenty of time to, since we're not going to deal with this for a couple of meetings, it appears. Um, so I did. Or we did a slide deck. Uh, it is in three parts. One is a kind of a a better understanding of what a form based code is and in terms of what its components are. And then what's the breakdown for done in the purpose of trying to understand the process? How does it work and how how much protection does it provide for the town center? The second part is in case studies from different form based codes that are examples of what it could look like. So when Util starts presenting us with graphics and information and text, we will have at least some heads up in terms of what it should look like, and we have something to judge it against. Uh, also information so that we can all form our own questions about. Is this sufficient? Is it overkill? Is it whatever. So the idea in this is to generate is to ask each member to generate questions they have that are particular to what we have to deal with. So the question isn't do we have a form based code or not. We're sort of launched in that direction. It's now how do we deal with the information coming down the pipe from util when they start up after the pause. And the third part is what you teel has accomplished to date. So we need to evaluate that. And I just took borrowed information from their slideshows, the latest one being the select board meeting on December 2nd. And as they sort of find their way through this whole process to start to prepare the final documents. So again, the idea here was to kind of lay the groundwork for fuller discussions on the actual content so we can, uh, understand the process a little bit more. And. 02:30:12,667 S4: Give each one of us a chance to think deeply about what? What are the critical questions as we see this coming forward that we're going to ask of you? Teel. So it'll be good if we can sort of all get in the same, same mindset about that. Jonathan, do you want to say anything? 02:30:27,200 S3: Yeah. What I would just say is that the case study is helpful to understand how the form based code is organized and what the graphics, what the framework of the graphics are to help you evaluate an application. But the since it's a case study, the specific metrics and measurements and numbers are not applicable to Hamilton. But there would be numbers or, you know, measures that are unique to Hamilton that you would develop and we would comment on. So it's important to look at it, look at the case study as a, as a framework of information that we would get something similar to that from util, and that's the tool you would have in front of you when an applicant comes before you. And to make sure that you understand, you agree with and understand what what the performance standard is that you're looking at. When you look at a graphic, do you understand what that performance standard is, and can you comment on a project accordingly? And is it the right amount of control? Or, you know, it. 02:31:30,000 S4: Might say that. 02:31:30,667 S3: The front control. 02:31:32,200 S4: Yeah, it might say that the front setback is 25ft, but it may not be. There's a local calibration that needs to take place that you still is working on now. So the numbers are are placeholders. They're not to be taken, you know, verbatim that they are what is proposed because they're not there case studies from a different location, different set of metrics. Yeah. 02:31:55,400 S3: So you know, an example would be when you look at it, um, the case study might say, um, we recommend a particular roof for a particular proportion of dormer or something like that. Um, that's not necessarily what we're doing. Um, but those are examples of things that you can have metrics for, have control over. And so the question is sort of what's the right amount of specificity for the Hamilton's form based code when you compare it to what utils produced versus what. You know, other case studies look like what's the right amount of control? 02:32:30,367 S4: Yeah. One of the nice features of the form base is you can make it as tight or as loose as you want. In other words, if you're you can be relaxed about the whole thing and allow more flexibility in terms of development. Or you can really be controlled if there's a very special area that you need to protect more so that those distinctions can be made in the code itself. 02:32:52,267 S3: So again, what it is, is it's kind of making sure the board has a common language so that when we look at what Util presents to us, we understand what its purpose is, how you would use it. And do we agree with it. You know. And what are our recommendations. So that's what this is preparation for. 02:33:08,167 S4: So that will show up in your mailbox. Um when Mark gets a chance to send it. Or was it sent? 02:33:15,100 S9: Oh. 02:33:15,801 S4: Okay. Thanks. So that must have been a surprise. Oh, no. We're going to have a 30 slide presentation tonight. That's why Pat left early. 02:33:29,667 S3: And I guess the other thing would be the questions are there to to stimulate your sort of critical thinking, but you don't need to limit yourself to the questions that are framed in the slide deck. In other words, you could have a question that's not even evident in the presentation. You know, it's all fair game because now's the time to sort those things out. Not when we've got, um, the information from you teel, in front of us, and we're saying, how do you use this? What? What? You know, what's this graphic for? 02:34:00,901 S4: Yes, as Marty said at the beginning, that you put something on a piece of paper and now you have something to kick around. Push, discuss. 02:34:07,100 S5: And discuss. 02:34:07,767 S4: Also. 02:34:09,100 S5: Okay. 02:34:09,701 S2: Okay. Thank you. We will study it. I know you know. I know I have questions, and I and I'm familiar with the form based code a lot more than some people. But looking at the graphics, it's still it's a different language. And it's like going into an empty room and an architect say, there'll be a wall here and it'll look just like that. And you go, really? And so you have to learn to imagine, um, how the town can evolved with those metrics in place and how they will, um, serve to be guide guardrails for, for what happens in the future. So let's go to the remaining items on our agenda. We have the master plan Then in implementation, um, I it's always a topic of concern. 02:35:08,267 S9: I did speak to the town manager about it because I know it's a priority of the town. Um, it's just I when I try to go to it, something else pops up. Um, so Joe has volunteered the services of, uh, his assistant to help us sort of get it over the finish line. So I'm meeting with Cynthia, uh, tomorrow to talk about, uh, how to do that, but I apologize. I, uh, uh, unfortunately, we have some staffing issues, so I'm hoping we can work those out in the short term. 02:35:36,968 S5: But we're. 02:35:38,501 S2: Fully cognizant of the fact that you have to wear many. 02:35:43,567 S5: Hats, and. 02:35:45,467 S2: And that can sometimes not be good. 02:35:48,968 S6: Yeah. 02:35:49,868 S2: I mean, if you have too many jobs, you can't do any, any of them. Well, and that's just a generalization, but I'm glad that Joe. 02:36:00,100 S5: Has. 02:36:00,968 S6: To speak with him about pitching in, because really, it's a management issue. It is. We have all been waiting all this time, and people have put in so much time and effort and money. And so. 02:36:12,267 S5: Before you. 02:36:13,167 S2: Came on board, well, the planning Board approved the master plan on August 6th and on October 22nd, I sent you started November 15th, right. 02:36:24,567 S9: It was October 28th, 28th. 02:36:26,601 S2: So before you came on board, I sent a memo to Carolyn Beaulieu, the chair of the Select board, and Joe and said. 02:36:36,167 S5: What's up? 02:36:37,667 S2: Where's where's the master plan? And I. 02:36:40,567 S5: Said. 02:36:41,501 S2: No, I never got a reply. Um, so this is an ongoing issue. And it. 02:36:47,868 S5: Is. 02:36:48,000 S2: Yes, you're right, it's a management issue. You can't do everything. Everything all the time. What was that movie? Everything. Everywhere. All at once. 02:37:00,601 S2: And these are jobs for support staff. 02:37:03,100 S5: Yes. 02:37:03,767 S6: Yes. 02:37:06,167 S2: We expect you at the higher level to. 02:37:08,100 S5: Fix. 02:37:08,367 S2: These bylaws. Okay, so we've got a plan. And, uh, on that score. So now we have to look at this schedule. And this is, this is, um, my concern. So when I say if you have suggestions for site plan review, get them to me so I can get it to mark, the sooner he has it, the better, because he has so many jobs to do. We don't even know about all his jobs. The Conservation Commission, the this, the that, the other. So um, we have some really tight deadlines. So this is the proposed meeting schedule and it's too bad we're not paid because we'd be getting overtime. Um, so January 21st. I'd like to have. Everything is in the best shape it can be. I'd like to get the Adu materials to Robin and also the the the site plan review materials to Robin so she can comment. We will have her comments by January 29th. And hopefully, you know, if you will authorize me to work with Mark. You know, we're just going to be the drafting committee and then we're applicable. Rich Maloney to get these things so that on January 29th we have the memorandums for the Adu. Well section three, because section three has. 02:38:40,367 S5: To. 02:38:40,801 S2: Has a lot of amendments. We will have the site plan review section 10.6. And then we'll have Rick Maloney's, um, various amendments. So that's a lot of material to get finalized on the 29th. And then, um, uh. 02:39:05,000 S2: When do we have to get, um, the zoning amendments have to be posted on the 18th for the public hearing. Is that correct? 02:39:15,601 S9: Yes. 02:39:16,400 S2: So do we have any leeway between January 29th and February 4th? 02:39:23,000 S9: Yes. The only thing you have to have to do by the 29th is to tell the Selectboard, the articles that are going to be on the warrant. So we're going to have this article affecting this section of the bylaw. We don't have to have the language by the 29th. We just have to know for certain what, um, articles are going to be in front of town meeting. It's the 18th. You have to have the language final. 02:39:47,267 S2: That's when it gets posted. 02:39:49,067 S5: Yeah. 02:39:52,167 S2: Okay. Well, it's still how many days between the 29th and the fourth? 02:39:57,100 S5: Not many. 02:39:58,467 S9: So what we did is add one meeting for January 29th just to sort of, um, give us a little more time to play with the zone amendments. And you'll see, I have excluded new applications from coming in the door so you don't have to worry about, uh, kind of dealing with new applications and dealing with zoning amendments. Um, so that's really the biggest change, I think. February 25th. This room is not available. So that meeting would have to be virtual. Um, and that potentially if everything is in good shape, we could cancel that meeting. And I did remove, uh, one of your March meetings to sort of make up for the, uh, you know, the intensity or schedule in the beginning part of the year. 02:40:42,901 S4: So the 29th is in person here? 02:40:45,801 S5: Yes. 02:40:46,100 S2: And the fourth as well? 02:40:47,601 S5: Yes. Okay. Okay. 02:40:49,200 S2: So with respect to, um, the site plan application, that may be, may or may not be final with respect to that building that's proposed for the patent homestead. I would very much like to have a pre-application conference with respect to that. I know it's not in the bylaw, but, um, uh, I'll be candid in my review of that structure, and I've mentioned it I've discussed it with Amel. Is that it? Um, in my humble opinion, it has very little to recommend it, particularly as the Friends of Patton Homestead. Their mission is to promote the use of the property by veterans, and I'm puzzled as how veterans are going to access that building, how reading for the veterans in that building will be stored, because there is no evidence that there will be seating. And if these gentlemen and women are elderly. This just doesn't make much sense to me. And plus, the building is not near a parking lot. 02:41:55,667 S6: Not. 02:41:56,300 S5: It's not handicapped. 02:41:58,100 S2: So. And and we won't even mention the aesthetics. So, um, you know, maybe there's some opportunity to, um, um, before any significant money is expended to, to try and sort through some of those issues in a very, to use your word, Jonathan, collaborative fashion. Um, so we could maybe do that in March. 02:42:25,000 S5: You know. Okay. 02:42:26,367 S9: The one challenge with that is, um, the the butters have been notified, so we have to do something on the 21st. I could tell the recreation director we're not anticipating a decision on that, but, um, we'd have to open the public hearing. 02:42:40,300 S2: At what. 02:42:40,767 S5: Time? 02:42:41,567 S9: On January 21st. 02:42:47,567 S2: Unless. Unless they waived it, right? 02:42:50,300 S9: Yes. They could wave it. Yep. I can ask if he's willing to do that. 02:42:54,100 S2: Would you? Would you ask them? You could just say that. You know that. I'm sure there's no urgency for construction anytime soon. 02:43:02,467 S9: I would think not. Yeah. 02:43:04,701 S2: If they can wave that, that would be great, because there's no way of getting a pre-application conference. 02:43:13,767 S2: Okay. Any any other business? 02:43:19,868 S6: For me. 02:43:25,567 S2: Do you have anything else for us? 02:43:27,667 S9: I don't, uh, only one thing. Uh, the habitat for humanity, the affordable housing development and reconstruction. Uh, they're doing the second round lottery for that. So that's the the last six units in that development, that later will be in this room on the 21st of January. It's open to the public. You're interested? 02:43:49,467 S2: Do you know if the Affordable Housing Trust has had any meetings lately? 02:43:55,901 S9: Not that I'm aware of, but I've just had an email or conversation with some of the home officials, and there's some money available, so they'll have to meet to allocate that funding if they wish to, because it expires in June. 02:44:08,400 S2: Yeah. You know, I used to be on the Affordable Housing Trust and uh, when I was chair, we, we had frequent meetings and we would, we would have the folks from habitat for humanity come in and give us progress reports and, you know, see, see where things stood. 02:44:29,868 S9: They, um, they reached out and they gave me a tour of the site and, uh, very enthusiastic, I'm sure if any words interested, I could line something up. 02:44:37,567 S2: They're they're lovely people, and sometimes they forget to dodge the eyes of gravity. 02:44:44,667 S2: As as we. As I discovered when I first got on the board. When the deed restrictions in perpetuity had never been recorded. Oops. That was all resolved. So we have one last thing to do. 02:45:00,567 S6: Oh, yes. I make a motion that we adjourn for the evening. Is that the last thing? Yes. Second chance. 02:45:07,868 S2: Pat's gone. So, Jonathan. 02:45:10,567 S3: Jonathan. Poor. 02:45:11,367 S4: I am Emil Dahlquist II. 02:45:13,968 S2: Is Beth still with us? Do we still have a quorum? I think so. Darcy. 02:45:20,467 S6: Darcy Dale, I. 02:45:22,167 S2: Am Marnie Croce.