So It It’s getting restarted. Angie, can you hear me? Yep. Oh good. OK. My audio has not been working, so I wanted to check. Thank you. I will remute myself. We recorded a cloud probably, right? Yeah How’s London? Actually First time I’ve been back there in 35 years wow. recording to the um. the computer as well In that case I’d just be able to. Retrieving then send it right oh yeah this for teacher. Yeah. All right, uh, welcome everybody. To the September 4th, 2024, uh, zoning Board of Appeals meeting. Uh We’ll get started, uh, what we’ll do, we’ll go in order, I think, um. We’re gonna get started with our first application. The application is for the property located at 20 Rust Street, assessor’s map 55, Lot 132A and the R1A zoning district owned by Araz Havan, uh, applicant is seeking finding under zoning bylaw Section 5.3.4.5 for dimensional relief from side yard setback requirements in order to demolish existing deck and build a 13 by 16 ft and 6 inch 1st edition. Is there, uh, somebody here on behalf of the applicant? Hello, Tim Lean, husband of Aros. Yeah, feel free to present on the application. So yeah, we’re just looking to demolish the deck and build a one-story addition, primary motivation being that we only have one bathroom, it’s on the 2nd floor, and we’d like to have a bathroom on the primary floor and redo the, uh, ingress into the house. Does, uh, does anyone, uh, from the committee have any questions for the applicant? Does anyone, uh, from the public have any questions from the applicant in the room or online? Oh Any further discussion from the board? lower, lower, lower All right, uh. Do I have a motion? construction of the bathroom and the deck. Do I have a second? I second that. Um, All right, so we’ll take a roll call vote. Andy Phillip. I, David Parent chief, and Stephen Derocher I. Uh, congratulations, your application has been approved, um, See, I think the, I’m the, uh, I should note that I’m the acting chair for the evening, the chair of the board has 14 days, I believe, to, uh, issue the decision, then there’s a twenty-day appeal after which point the uh becomes binding and you can get a uh. A building permit. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. And uh Patrick, feel free to correct me if I’m, uh, if I’m wrong on any of those points. You were right. All right. Next up Uh, the application for the property located at 75 Lakeshore Avenue. Assessor’s map 666 Lot 128 in the R1A zoning district owner Denise Kelly is seeking approval to demolish an existing 12 by 15 ft structure to build a garage and approval for a finding under zoning bylaw Section 5.3.4.5 for dimensional relief from side yard setback requirements, proposed garage, will and encroach approximately 1 ft further. Although I Believe that’s no longer the case, correct, correct, would you like to present on the application. Thank you. uh, Brian Stein from Van Stein Architects on behalf of Denise Kelly, who is on vacation and couldn’t be here tonight. Um, so yes, we submitted, um, a revised application, I believe. On Tuesday, if not before, um, to, uh, not encroach any farther into the setback and basically stay in the same spot, same corner that the existing shed is and move the front of it forward. So we’re not going any farther into the setback. The reason for that is they went to Conservation commission a couple of weeks ago, and they asked that they not encroach any farther towards the lake. Um, so other than that, it hasn’t changed. Um, this is just a. You know, existing shed that’s not big enough or a garage is not big enough for a car, so we’re adding she wants to add a one car garage and then a connection to the house. Um, pretty straightforward. Uh, we have a letter from the neighbor, I think that’s in the record that has no next door that has no issue, um, with the project, so. Great. I’m glad the uh conservation commission did the hard work for us that’s a, that’s a tight spot right there, um. So it’s good to see that it’s, it’s staying. Uh, where it is. Uh, any questions from the, from the board? Any questions from the public online or on Zoom or in the room? Um, uh, any further discussion? To expand upon the discussion we’ve already had. All right, uh, I accept the motion. I motion to allow the construction at 75 Lake Shore Ave for the addition and tear down and then the connection to the house and moving it forward. Right? Is there a second? I second that. All right, roll call vote. Andy Phillip. Bye. David Per in chief Stephen Derocher, I, uh, your application has been approved. The chair has 14 days to write the decision. There’s a 20 day appeal period, uh, after which you’ll be able to obtain a building permit. Thank you. Thank you. Right. Let’s keep this trainer moving. All right. Uh, the next application I need to abstain from, so I’m going to appoint David because he’s in the room as the acting chair to the acting chair. Right. All the applicant is is for the property located at 22 Elliott Street, Sescher’s map 55, Lot 69R1A zoning district owner Scott Regan. Are you gonna seeking approval for finding a zoning bylaw Section 5.3.4.5 for dimensional relief from the side yard setback requirements in order to expand existing deck. Hello. Um, basically, um. My wife and I and two small children live in this house with a relatively small plot of land. There’s an existing 10 by 12 ft deck and we’re looking to just widen it to give us some more room to hang outside, have some dinners, play with the kids in the yard, um, and as such. We just wanna um bring it out to the left towards the fence a little bit, um, to get, get rid of some wasted space. I’m just waiting for this to reload. I got nothing, any, any questions? Uh, OK, can you hear me? Hello. OK, cool. Um, so I understand it’s a setback, is it, and it’s still nonconforming, how much does it encroach on How much extra does it encroach? It’s a foot, right? Is that what I’m reading? So are you asking what we’re proposing, how much it’ll encroach. Precisely how much more it would encroach. It would, we’re looking to bring it out by 3.5 more feet. Got it. or total? Just on the left side on the left side. Well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna expand the deck. The only part that affects that, that is gonna exceed the setback is on one side. That Mike, any questions? Alright. Yeah, I’m just going through uh regulation real quick, make sure there’s nothing that’s gonna come back and bite us later. I’m not seeing any issues. So I have, I have no issue with the, uh, request. Um, it’s a deck. It’s not a Formal structure, it can be shortened or adjusted if. There is an error later on, so. Um, I I vote to allow it. Uh, Andy. Yeah, I, I said a motion to allow the deck being built at 22 Elliott Street. Hm I said a motion. OK, um. All right, I second that motion. Uh, it’s a roll call vote. Andy Phillip I Pent Chief. All right. Um, so at this time, The motion’s been granted, uh, Steve, if you want to come up and finish your spiel. Since I finally got it down, um. Application’s been approved, you have, uh, the, the uh the chief, the chair has 14 days to write the decision, and there’s a 20-day appeal period after which you’ll be able to get a building permit. Thank you. OK, moving right along. All right, our next application is for the property owned by Erica and Frank. Totorici Um, for the property located at 85 Woodland Mead Assessor’s map 47 Lot 224, in the zoning district R1B. Applicants are seeking approval for a special permit under zoning bylaw 3.6 accessory apartment to construct an 895 square foot detached accessory dwelling unit with an attached one bay garage, storage shed, and two porches. Um, is there somebody here on behalf of the applicant to present? I just wanted to thank you for being here and make a correction. It’s only owned by me it’s not owned by my father. Yeah. All right. Sure. Uh, good evening. My name is Ken Savoy. I’m um an architect representing. Erica and Frank and um. Um, you have our application before you. We’re proposing to detached, um, accessory structure that we feel complies with the um. The bylaw in terms of area setbacks and um. And use so um. Uh, I’m not sure that you need what you need from me in the way of presentation because you have pretty much all the materials, the uh drawings of what the proposed structure will look like. Uh, how it’s laid out, uh, so I’ll. Open it up I guess the question if uh to start with and then if you have um. If you want me to speak to something specific, I’d be happy to. OK, thank you. Uh, any questions from the board? So it states that it’s a garage, a porch, and, and a living station. That’s That’s, that’s correct. So I’m just looking at the, cause the state just changed the regulations recently to allow for more structures. But they stayed 900 square feet as a norm and Garages are not in like are not a requirement, not a requirement and not included in that in that 900 square feet. That’s correct. So, and how, what’s the square footage of the garage? Hm Um, It’s a single oversized single car garage, so it’s. I’m gonna guesstimate it’s probably in the neighborhood of 400 square feet, uh, but I can give you more specific. And Information. You can see in uh uh in the plans, it’s really designed for just a single car with additional space on, on either side for storage of Yard equipment, maybe a motorcycle or something that of that type, yeah, no motorcycles, OK. We do have a large property and our long term goal is to have horses in our paddocks, so we just wanna plan ahead for that. OK, so it is this, is this a family unit or is this a rental units gonna be a family unit, so my sister lives on the west coast and my parents live about 45 minutes from my house and they’re over quite often to help with childcare. So I was hoping to add a bedroom and a bathroom in that space. And then I also do, uh, work from a home office, so we would use that area to, to, you know. escape and work, and my parents would be in the main home. Um, we just didn’t want to add an addition to the property because it would change the. Aesthetic of the, the main home and we have that land to do that with. OK, so someone’s actually not gonna be living there full time as a accessory unit. Yes, it would be used for my, my mom and dad, yep. So it would be their Erica and her husband and child or, or Frank, his wife Erica’s parents. But not full time, I think is what David’s asking. No No Oh, it is. Oh, they’re going to relocate to here. OK, yep, and my sister’s on the west coast, so they would have the opportunity to to travel and see her and have space at my house to to be. OK, um, I’m just, I just want clarification because you mentioned it be for work and you know you can yeah because I mean, We now have to be very careful because if it’s not a living unit. And then it becomes an office, then we’re violating the state’s trying to deal with the affordable housing and the housing crunch if it’s, if, if it’s not. It’s dwelling unit, like a permanent dwelling unit, it’s kind of like, oh, when they come visit. So they would be selling if it’s approved and we move forward with the bill, they would be selling their property and moving. OK, so that’s something we We All right. And you can see by the layout of the of the unit that it’s, is a residential unit and has a living near a kitchen, bedroom, baths, and so forth. And if someone were to work out of the house, it wouldn’t be any different than working out of the main house, right, is, uh, remote office I said that is I I work from home and when they come over to help with childcare, and there’s a lot of commotion in the house, so I meant that they can bring the child to their I can work in All right. Um. Yeah, if, if there, if there is an intention to sell their permanent home and move in. Then then you meet the. That answers this accessory dwelling question. Yes Do you have a uh existing accessory structure elsewhere on the property? We do not, no. Right Like point OK, and we’re not changed. On no change. had an added driveway. No, it’s the existing we’d have to tail it a little branch off of the main driveway to go into the. It It’s good See, the only thing I’m just trying to clarify is the garage situation since 900 is the max that we’re allowed because we’re gonna be so that’s why I asked about the Uh, accessory structure and there being a pre-existing accessory structure elsewhere because this could be thought of as building a Utility accessory structure, the garage, and then just like you might have in a a uh accessory apartment above a garage. So in that way, this is actually two projects. It’s building an accessory structure and then building a. Accessory apartment. Off of it Yeah, so that’s where. You ordered that way better than I did, um. What I’m unclear on is whether or not that needs to be handled as two separate things, although I’m not sure that that’s necessarily since you don’t have a pre-existing accessory structure, there’s no reason the ZBA doesn’t need to clear you to have a second accessory structure, um, I, so that would be up to the building inspector whether or not he needs to think of this as two separate. Projects, but since they’re being built at the same time, I don’t see a reason why he, why he would do that. Um, But he does seem to have some concern over the square footage of this specifically not accounting for the entryway in the gross calculation. Yes, that is true, but I noticed that on the, the plan, it is an unheated is marked as unheeded. Right. I’m part of an HOA on that street and there’s some, uh, rules in the covenants where we have to keep the aesthetic. It cannot look like a house, so we have to keep it really looking like a true barn, um, and the entryway facing the street is going to be a faux barn door that covers a window, um, and that’s why the side entrance, the main entrance of the home, it is not considered heated and it’s not like a living space. That’s why it was kind of drawn up to really keep with the aesthetic of the property and that’s why we needed to add the porch, um, because we needed to keep the roof line very low, um, for the neighborhood and, and keep it very barn-like. I understand that, but HOAs don’t they don’t any um, And if you want to correct me, I, I have no issue currently at with the. Dwelling apartment, I’d like clarification from building inspector if this is considered too. Separate items. Um, And if we can get clarification on that, like maybe approve the dwelling for right now until we see how building wants to answer that for us. Or what’s, I mean you shares tonight, so it’s your call. No, I’m just trying to think of the um the logistics around that, uh, because it would be nice to, um. To not have to make them come back. Yeah, I don’t if he’s OK with it. I would think he would have mentioned something about it, um, if you thought about, thought that, but it’s his, uh, his memo about the the relative size, the gross, the potential gross square footage and it’s comparison to previous, um, detached accessory apartments that this board has approved, um, But again, thinking of it as a accessory structure. Uh, with an accessory dwelling attached to it. Um, I think Negate some of the concern for me around the gross square footage, especially since that entry marked as unconditioned, although it always, you know, somebody could condition it in the future. There’s also, you know, the attic. I don’t know what’s the, what’s the ceiling height in the attic? Um, Could somebody stand in the? Someone could stand at the peak, but then, then quickly run out of headroom is because we’re not adding dormers or it’s going to be a one story and the the stairway to the attic comes from the garage as well, right? Yeah, so it’s, it’s not. It’s not at risk becoming habitable space, yeah. Uh, basement, did I, oh yeah, basement unconditioned basement, yeah, that’s obviously full height basement under everything but the garage, correct. Yeah. Go back to this. Partial basement. how partial are we talking. Because now we’re entering into. If the basement gets finished, if something’s done down there in the future. There, as you can see, there would not be meat habitable requirements for a bedroom, for instance, because of. Negress issues and so forth so it’s really intended only for storage and mechanical and I understand that, but it’s, it’s always you have to understand it’s. Who comes after you? What do we have, you know, what. What Pandora’s box do we open with certain If we say yes to you, then no to somebody else, then we. Which is why we’re here to basically reinforce very straightforward regulations. 900 square feet is the state’s Like that’s the special accessory unit, so I’m I’m I’m so hung up on this garage plus the Basement and The square footage regulation on that because you could have someone finish the basement in the future, not saying you will, but you know, you can turn it into a downstairs little studio you could make it into a workout, it then it adds to the square footage and then we have to answer for that. That’s, that’s what I’m getting at. But you’d have to make it co-compliant and it would not be possible with this construction to make that space code compliant for a living area because you wouldn’t be able to provide adequate light and ventilation and egress and and and the like, so yeah, there’s only the one egress. Is there any glazing at all? Well, we’ll have to provide ventilation. We’re not required to provide light to that, but I imagine there will be small basement windows placed within the foundation. It’s a flat site, so you know, it’s not like we have ability to have a walkout or anything here, it’s, you’re going straight to the ground and down, right, yeah. I’ll also mention that our bylaw specifies the gross floor area residential is the area of a residential structure used for living space, excluding basement and attic area. OK. All right, so the uh. OK, so I have no problem with the. Apartment section of it, um. Yeah, you might only hang up is the. There is a two structures, is it one? Like you were saying, if If you don’t have an issue with it, and if you’re good with it, I’ll, I’ll follow the board. I can’t say that uh Frank did speak with the building inspector very early on before we even started doing any drawing on this and. And uh he could speak to us if you will be occupied. we just need you to speak. We’ll be occupying the building, uh, when we. Started to even think about this. I went to the town and I spoke to Rich Maloney. He laid out the bylaws and he said, here’s what you can build. He brought out a set of drawings from a similar situation in town and he Specified that it was 900 square feet. You couldn’t move from that maximum, but he did say because you can have 4 parking spaces that this house could have a garage. He said it could have a full basement that was in the bylaws so that’s why we proposed this as far as that unconditioned space goes Ken had worked up some preliminary drawings and when we looked at them, we had to keep tweaking them because To keep with the square footage. Maximum the roof line started to get choppy because of the jogs in the house. And of course the HOA was saying and Rich said. You just don’t want to make it look like you just dropped another house on the property. You have to make it look like this, so the main entrance doesn’t face the street, it faces her property, the driveways common. This unheeded entryways only, it’s deep, but it’s only wide, so I don’t know what you could do with it and that’s why we kept that unheated. We also put the. Which I wasn’t a fan of, but we tried to save space. In the habitable spot, uh, piece. To enter the basement. That’s why we have the basement stairs in the garage, which isn’t ideal, but we’re trying to keep with that and that’s why that’s a little bit, you know. Extraordinary thank you for pointing that out because I had, I had mentioned to them the attic stairs being in the garage, but I hadn’t decided on that and can. Rework these drawings, we got the roof line to look more barn-like we put the patio out there, but we also said, well, we have the stairs going down to the basement. We’re probably, we haven’t got to that stage yet, but this main area with the living room kitchen for most likely gonna be vaulted. So as such, you wouldn’t have any attic there we said what a waste when we have those stairs we could have a set of stairs above it to just take a small area above there for storage she’s got a lot of outdoor stuff we’ve been carrying that in and out of the basement through a bulkhead. So that’s why. You know, this ended up. Like this for the most part. I think for me the stairs to the basement being in the garage also makes me feel a little bit better about the basement. OK. All right. Yes, it seems like the building inspector, the only, the only comment he had was on the entry entry way. Even though it’s listed as unconditioned. Having that not be represented in the gross total, which I understand why it’s not because it’s unconditioned and they’re saying that the garage is not conditioned too, so that makes sense, but I think that That was the building inspectors comment. Alright, well, I Uh, Andy, do we feel like we want to ask for an amendment to the plans based on that? What would you recommend that amendment be? Well, the only thing I could think of is that if you did away with the front wall of the entryway and made it like a long. Um, Like an exposed entryway, right, a recessed, the door would be recessed by however many feet that is, 10 ft 15 ft. Yeah, you’re saying like the entryway, where what what is labeled as entry is essentially absorbed by the gro like is it an addition of the garage or outdoor space. Oh, or, oh sorry, I was misunderstanding. OK, more outdoor vestibule. How many square feet are we talking about for the entryway? It’s approximately 5 by. 15 15 15 15, yeah, it’s so 75 with the door. We played around with that. Aesthetically, it was more pleasing, but remember we have a door to the garage. Yeah, right. I’m sorry, to the basement. So there’s 2 doors and to spot them, we needed that depth, otherwise you’d have these doors exposed to, yeah You know, we know we, with the, with the With a, you know, uh But the right Type of door there, we can just keep that unconditioned. I’ve seen it. It’s like a breeze wave connecting a garage basically. Same scenario, so. It made the front of that building look better. In the future, would you be able to condition the entry space? You could put some radiant panels down at some point, probably. It’s going to be a slab, uh, similar to the garage. In fact, um, it could even be open to the garage. There is a door between the two, so um, but, um, as Frank pointed out, having that closure at the very end of it will make it a safer with snow blowing in there and drifting and so forth. So that’s why we. Um, that’s why we propose putting a doorway there, um, I don’t know how there’s. Um, Whatever the temperature of the garages will be, it’s probably what that entryway will be, yeah. It does sound like it might be um, a challenge to make that 75 square feet habitable. Yeah. Are there any further questions or discussion? Anybody on Zoom on the board? Anybody in The room or We have folks in the room. Hi, I’m Rachel Moore. I’m at 55 Porter Lane. We’re direct abutters to Erica, um, on the backside of their property. So I was wanting to seek clarification on the accessory apartment, um, the bylaws that are currently in town for the place and I know the state has just come through with new regulations, which ones are we looking at here? Because when looking at, you know, the accessory apartment, um, 3.6.1. I don’t see how this meets that purpose and intent that’s stated in the town bylaws. So I wanted clarification there on that piece. We would be using the existing. Accessory dwelling unit regulations in the zone and bylaw those new state regs aren’t going to be enacted until after. February 2nd of next year. So of those for the purpose of Nintendo 3.6.1,, 1 of this does that mean? Uh, it’s a good question. Uh, so for the record, the 3, the purpose and intent, the 3 intents of 3.6 accessory apartment include adding moderately priced rental units to the housing stock to meet the needs of small households, both young and old, 2, making housing units available to moderate income households who might otherwise have difficulty finding housing in the town and 3 provide older homeowners with the means of obtaining rental income, companionship, security and services, and thereby to Enabled them to stay more comfortably in homes and neighborhoods they might otherwise be forced to leave. Uh, there is a. I’m of the opinion that the, the concept of an in-law apartment falls roughly under the 3rd provision there, right, of having, um, Older Family members provide older homeowners with the means of obtaining rental income. So it So it doesn’t security and services, the first line there is provide older homeowners. So the owner of the primary residence is not an older homeowner. Uh, and I think in an in-law apartment scenario, the usually the in-laws who live in the apartment usually aren’t. Um, The original homeowners either. Yes, but an in-law apartment is part of a primary structure. This is a completely detached structure. It is, yeah, that’s why we’re having a lot of discussion about the uh the square footage and the accessory, uh, building versus accessory apartment, yeah. Um, and, in addition, I My Wi Fi here is obviously not great. They’re, um, so I don’t know what part of the Bylaw this falls under, um, But looking at the bylaws that are in place for the state, and it says, you know, the creation of an apartment must share a common floor ceiling with the primary dwelling, um, or a common wall connector that’s 016 and I’m sorry, I think it falls under 3.6.4. Yeah, there are, and in fact, there are some, there are a number of requirements within the 3.6.4, uh, modification of the exterior of the dwelling, right, that pertain to when you’re doing this inside of an existing dwelling or adding an addition. But then there are, so there’s, there are some, they would be perceived as conflicting, uh, but in reality, they’re just pertaining to different modes of an accessory, uh, dwelling. We’ve had accessory dwell, uh, detached accessory dwelling. For there’s a number of, there are a couple of requirements here that pertain specifically to detached structures. Um, I was just reading it this morning, so I should be able to bring it up. Uh, 3.6, I think number 2 modifications of the exterior of the accessory building the house apartment shall maintain the appearance and essential characteristic of the accessory structure, which I guess goes with the HOA that you guys have to keep it. Looking A certain way. But as I stated, HOA rules don’t. Play into our decisions, but. Working with what we’re reading here. It kind of meets their requirements. Just how do you know what the dwelling was being used for though, right? At one point it was a home. Of We’re we’re getting, we’re getting you on doubles, bud. I guess how do you know at any point in time what the structure is being used for. My parents are selling their property if you were able to build, and we will be living there. They’re 70 years. How do you know it’s a primary residence, I guess is the question, right? So we do have the ability. Where like registry of deeds can show that their home was sold like we could put that as a caveat that. You know, There would have to be some sort of Agreement that, you know, there would have to be proof of the the senior citizens, which would meet the older person are selling their home in order to have a more affordable option with their daughter. Um, You know, that’s something we can put in place if that puts your mind at ease, um. And we can talk about, but again, That wasn’t on the table right now for us to discuss, so we have to make sure like legally that. And with In the confines of what we do that we are authorized to do that, um. So we might have to delay this to get clarification just for safety’s sake, but I mean, obviously, The rules show the rules is they. Or they 854 square feet is what we’re looking at. 94 or excuse me, 895, sorry. 75 that would Technically put them over, but then as the building inspector said, that’s a non. Counted Hallway which if they were to finish it, then they would be in violation, which then the building inspector and the town could come back and be like. You’re gonna have to tear it out, but also in addition to that almost 900 square feet we also are talking about 400 square foot garage, correct? then additional two patios, 2 porches, I mean the the footprint of this new accessory dwelling is. Quite large when you take it into account of the entire footprint of it. Yes, Erica has a large property, but the piece of land that this is going on is not acres. It’s, it’s a small. Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And it’s also one of the things I think that’s interesting about this is that there is, there’s, there’s talk in the bylaw. There’s nothing specific, but there’s talk in the bylaw about how a Uh, accessory dwelling is sort of exposed to the public, right? Usually it’s, uh, the, the door is not supposed to face the street if it’s, if it’s, if the, if any of the walls face the street or it’s behind the accessory dwelling is usually supposed to be behind so that it doesn’t look like it’s too, um, Uh, two different, you know, houses on the same property, at least from the street, right? But One of the things I think we’re running into here is that this is really It looks like it could be. Conceived of as two projects at the same time, in accessory structure in the garage and the storage space with an accessory dwelling attached to it. Um, It, I say that only to say that if they, you know, if we turned them down and the state law didn’t change to enable this by right. Um, They could build the garage. And then come back 6 months later for Before us to add an accessory dwelling to the garage, right? And I, I think we Yeah, so that’s, this is, this is why we’re asking the question because They They have the basically the ability to do both. From what we see here as Steve looked at, there’s no other accessory structures, and they have the right to build an accessory apartment. How big is the property? It’s the acreage. 5 acres, OK, yeah, he said this is going on is. Not even 1/8 of an acre it doesn’t matter. We’re talking about the entirety, I was, I was asking that question because there’s a separate section of the bylaw that talks about accessory dwellings on large lots where a lot of these concerns. ceased to ceased to ceased to ceased to cease to be concerned ceased to cease to be concerned approve ceased to cease to be concerned approve ceased to cease to be concerned approve the rest of those. Yeah. So again, HOA is not HOA is not our problem here. No, exactly, that’s that’s part of the land folks, the HOA is not our concern here. Our concern here is that they have the right to an accessory structure and they have the right to an ADA compliant or, um, The sexy unit for their family. That is what we’re discussing, and that is what we have to look at if they have a five-acre property, we’d have to go through. We had this with the Patent estate they wanted to put one on a section and move it close to the row, but they had like 15 acres to use, so they had to move it back. So we have a few items we have to look into on this, um. Square footage with that non. Utilized portion. They’re within their, they’re under 900. We can’t say no if they’re under 900 and the building inspector agrees to it, it means they can’t build on it and they still have the right to the accessory of accessory structure because they don’t have another one. That’s, that’s our role. We can’t talk more on Who likes it, who was it, HOA, that’s not our point. They’re also within the correct me, but I believe they’re within the setback limits too. And then there’s that. If I could speak to one other thing that was just raised moments ago about I think believe in your bylaw you require the occupants to to license or register these properties on an annual basis to verify that they are indeed used by. So that’s a way to to confirm that it is going to be continuously used as a as a residence, uh, and and as as an accessory residence and the accessory is, uh, But the occupants of the accessory, uh, residences have to be, um, identified, right? So they would be registered in town to vote. They were, yeah. So my primary residence and that yeah, I’m, I’m well aware of that. I, I had, we’ve done this before. Um. Order lane This the Not about the age Stephen, I think we need to have people come up to the microphone. Oh yeah, you approach the microphone. I just want to I just want to clarify I just want to clarify that we’ve already as a courtesy and obviously to the HOA. When we got these drawings as well as a concept drawing for septic design, the HOA has received everything that Ken has right here. That was done well in advance because we never would have gotten into this. Cost wise. But then turn around and just. So to, to address You’re concerned about The location As Andy just stated, they’re within their setbacks. They’re SD found their still eligible for accessory dwelling, and there are eligible for the apartment. We can’t You may not like where it’s going, but we can’t stop them when they’re they’re within. The Zones also said that the intent is for them to not look like two separate houses on one piece of land. This is a 900 square foot. House with Traditional square footage around it in garage and patios and porches. So it is an entirely separate living unit on. The front street, so they’re next to each other, it’s not behind each other. So you’re seeing both from the street. Right, but the bylaws say that you can put up a separate dwelling. That’s what we checked on, so. Ah, so. Uh, what, what’s the regulation on patio based on ADU. Does that, is the state or do our bylaws cover anything on patio space that would with regard to an accessory apartment. Uh, not that I’ve found so far. OK. You’re talking specifically about the covered porch, David. Yeah, yeah, what she’s bringing up about the other area because we have this issue with the pergola. Uh yes, I remember. Yeah, so there was a Purgo issue where because it had a roof, technically it’s considered the structure. This is one. Large structure. It’s not. One over here and then a separate so they’re. For just technically still part of That, so I can see. I can see the Pal issue coming back to us. Well, and that, and then that rolling we asked them, told them it had to come down. Because of that. Um, and it just takes a loose lying down because we’re trying to keep it low and barm like what is this? What is the size of this patty. It’s 15 by. This is gonna be the screen I think they’re talking more it’s being presented is the footage of the not how it looks or its size and how we have to. The As he’s been looking, he’s looking to see with an ADU with the accessory dwelling unit, he’s looking to see. If a porch plays into that at all. I mean, if it didn’t, we could just leave it with brass. That, that might, I, I know. Yeah, I, and I, and I get that, but we, we, we are here to review Adirondack chairs and 2 old. I mean, what you have to understand is the the uh from strictly from the rules. You are eligible for the accessory. Building and you are eligible for the ADU. That’s not in question here. The question is, is the extra parts of it. And if That’s cannibal, which the building inspector didn’t find it that way. We don’t usually go against his decision. We just review it. And if we review it and we find him to also be correct then. We move forward, so. He did look at it as one structure. I’ve texted him and he’s confirmed that to me. I will also add that part of the aesthetic here is to make this really look like a barn or a stable almost so that the keeping it simple and yeah yeah but I understand. All right, so, so, so Pat, he says he’s considering the Porch and the patio and all that as the 11 structure and is that and so he’s counting all that in the square footage. OK, and he, and with all that counting the square footage we’re still, we’re still at the 8. 895, no, he doesn’t count that in that 895, it’s only for livable space, so it does not include his that 895 does not include garage nor porch. So, but he said he’s kind of almost one. Or basement, but we, I mean, we talked about that already. Right? He uh He did tell me he’s not used to seeing structures this large. As accessory dwelling units. However, when you peel it back to what I livable, they were under. The bag OK Is it It With the new bylaws taking effect in February. With the applicant be better served? Or does it not matter? To hold on to this till February. We don’t know what that false text from the yeah. So That would only be reading tea leaves at this point. Yeah, right. OK. I think at this point we should at least. Clarify as of right now the Livable indoor space. Conditioned, yeah 95 square feet and the garage are two things that We can definitely agree on. Um, The Covered outdoor porch area. Even though it’s one structure. Hm. Can we go back, can I get um one clarifying question, um, I’m sorry, I didn’t catch the abutter’s name when she came up originally, she was reading. The bylaws and. There’s some back and forth on who lives in the accessory dwelling is that Would we be in violation of a if we approve this of those. Of what she was Reading off As the way it’s been described, um. The So this is those three points that I was reading aloud earlier are the purpose and intent. They’re not necessarily uh regulations. OK, you know, as opposed to say the procedure. Or the requirements, rather, which list The 17 points. To which we must hold the application. Um, 2 Yeah. I’m just seeing if there’s any sort of case law right now on ADUs with the. With a Larger porch and see if there’s anything that that. But whether or not the, the real use of the ADU, I mean, that could also. Change in 6 months. February, yeah. Is there. I have a question With With It’s just attached to. Structure or touched. I just add it on to my structure at the same. I’m still adding He I don’t. understand Well, I think it’s easier to have it all attached to your house. I don’t think. But aesthetically it’s just not pleasing. Isn’t that funny how that happens? Yeah, it’s, yeah. I’m just telling you I don’t care about the aesthetics. I don’t care about the HMOHOA or whoever. I care about the fact that you are entitled to an accessory unit and you’re entitled to an ADU. That’s all I care about. But what that means though, if, if you did go that route and say, hey, let’s let’s just make, let’s just add this to our single family residence. Say you connect it, then you, in addition to that, can have an accessory dwelling. As well. Exactly, so that’s what I was saying to you guys if I Added it to my house and then I can keep adding and adding, wouldn’t you rather me not do that? This is a beautiful structure. It’s, it meets its setbacks and it’s low so it doesn’t inhibit upper level view. Um, it goes with the town and the aesthetic of, of Hamilton. So I just really hope that, and I wanna take my parents in and take care of them. I’m their only daughter on the East Coast. Um, there’s a lot there my neighbors can see their back and forth to my property. Every other day, basically. So it’s something that means a lot to me and my family. Steven, can you, um, comment on because the building inspector has viewed this as one project. The board is Potentially comfortable with. The square footage. Knowing that the entryway is not able to be an issue. That’s what the building inspector flagged as an issue. Is there any reason Why we would not, aside from neighbors. Commenting on it that we would not approve this? From the bylaws I, I don’t see a reason, uh, not to, especially since this structure could be built. As a, as an accessory structure as a barn and then come back and have an ADU put into the barn. Uh, 895 square foot ADU put into the barn, right? If it was done as two projects. Um, the, the issue with the entryway. I mean, we can condition as well too, we can put a condition that says that entryway can never be finished. I mean, it can’t be because then it would be in violation of the 900 square foot. Um, Rule. So the condition would just be a hat on a hat. Yeah, I, I was just looking at her. Old thing with that paraglides. I know you don’t like the idea of the porch, but they’re, they’re within the regulations like we building apector has stated his point. Mhm. They have the right to the accessory, they have a right to the apartments around privacy, then we, you know, we’re both two new properties that have been put in within the last few years. We’ve done extensive landscaping based on the footprint that is there today to add privacy, can we ask for conditions around. Privacy fencing or screening to. I, I do think that one of the things that the as a board we’ve done in the past, but we did that with a housing project. Uh, well, I’m thinking of instances where there’s um a butter opposition. And we’ve sought to Um, create conditions to Ease a but our opposition. Right, um, How far Or what’s, what’s the view angle we’re looking at here? Yeah, which, which side faces your, your property of the structure in front so we’re coming down our driveway. It will be directly in front of us. I’m at 55. I think directly in back 55 Porter, you said, right? OK, so directly. And it’s closer to Woodland Mead than to the back of the property. Um, yeah. So So Very serious right here. Oh no, this is my record. This is my street. Yeah, yeah, so there are streets here and this would be there. Yeah. So Here, bring it over here and take a look. So this is the one would be property I mean street and their homes are back here, so show me where you’re going. OK, so this would be my house and the structure would be over here, over over here and over here and over here and over here and over here and over here in our Woodland Mead you drive in and you go, OK, got you, got you, got you. All right. Do you have any problem planting trees in front of it. Like to to the property and their houses are like if they came out in their backyard, they would see the back of it and it’s very low. Um But we do already have screening and so do they, so yeah, yeah, we’re gonna landscape it and we’re not actually taking, we’re only taking one tree off our property and we try to keep all the trees actually we mapped it out on our land because we want to keep the trees. So this, this is the back, this is the part they would see this, this part. Or or this part, you know. Uh I believe Yeah, I think it’s this because this is kind of facing the street looks across at the um bar and across the street and so Mm There are a number of trees in that in that area where the Structures and we bandaged it. Um, Erika said, um, Save all of them except for one, so I think that was, it will also help to keep the I’m looking at the satellite view you there’s a pretty. Pretty green area around that. So fit quarter. Is off to the side one side. I don’t know if that east elevation, I don’t know which. Right side elevation, whatever, then there’s 68. Cunningham in between these two homes there’s another home. That’s the one with the fenced in yard. Oh, that’s your property. OK, so that’s where this home would be in front of the fenced in yard and we’ve already, we’re already trying to pull this forward by 20 ft. We’re coming closer to her driveway further from the setbacks. Where it was proposed, we just want to pull that forward. We’ve already had them out there because they’re doing a septic design because we need to know the orientation of the home. It’s a large area. I don’t know what they’re calling a small area, but it’s. You could put a full blown home on that. I have a, I have a question for the, the abutters um. What kind of um. Uh, privacy mitigation. Did you have in mind that we’re talking about, yes, we both have screening. Where our current backyards had to meet and where. We Both, you know, Have our living space outside where this home is, there’s currently no screening between those two areas, right, between the, the fence and well, there’s the trees, but I mean the driveway is going to wrap it coming down our driveway is going to be then the extension of the driveway. I know there’s a setback. I understand that you guys are in your rights. I totally. Get that and respect that. What I’m asking is for. Screening to be done either a fence or not a chain link fence, but a, a privacy fence or some sort of screening to keep with You know, the distinction between the two screening is Optional um. Uh, something like a 6 ft fence. I, I. Mhm. I don’t think the fence if you’re talking about a privacy fence that will be privacy fenced like this gentleman’s the answer to that is we don’t need to put a stockade fence up. We have every right for the fence so we can, I have every intention to fencing that property line just to define that, so that would be an extension of the fence we’ve already put up. Which one? Part of your side is an ornamental aluminum fence. We weren’t gonna go through the expense to 540 linear feet of fence, not to put the mini mesh and, and Hamilton, it’s only 4 ft. So we put that fence. They screened with the landscape. Maybe you could have saved money because we screened with landscape. Now the two of them look beautiful and they’ve already grown in one year, so we would be putting a fence there. I, I don’t think I have to say we have to, but if that’s what you’re asking, but we probably would screen it as well with landscaping. That’s our intention to make the property look well defined. That comes at an expense. It’s not something that we’re would like to be held to, but we certainly probably gonna do that or we wouldn’t do what she did, although she’s got a pool there so she had to have some fence. Steven, are you saying that in the past the zoning board has um. Has That these requirements for A butters or is this something that the two property owners work? Together on offline. Um, my memory is it’s something that we’ve. Not necessarily something that we’ve conditioned, uh, but something that we’ve helped to mediate between. And now that you say that, I do, yeah, I do remember that in the past. Uh, it was the glowing light one, if you remember. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, I don’t want to jump out here and grab a scale roll and figure this out, but the naked eye, this structure, the closest part to that of butter on that side, it could be 100 ft. We’re well within the setback in the rear to the stockade fence again we’re we’re not questioning I know you’re not I’m not questioning you that we, we’ve already established you within we’re, we’re talking about the. Long term cohabitation within town. Yeah. I understand. If you’re already, you say you’re already planning on landscaping, you’re planning on planting. obviously. Yeah. Strictly from the regulations. There is nothing That denies us from granting. The requests Of you guys It seems that they’re already planning to plant. It takes time, you know, it’s. Stephen went in You and Andy seem to remember that case better with the trees and flood. How was that resolved? Was it more of a verbal agreement or did you ask for like proof of plan or do we just kind of? I, I don’t I don’t remember that I remember. I remember. One was a verbal agreement and that was, um, everyone was happy with that. The second one, there was one where. Um, the trail signs, I forget the street, um, the trail signs, and that one did offline. Yeah, that was, that was the right of way trail. Yeah, exactly. All the driveway region. At first, Ken did propose looping it, looping it in the back and I said absolutely not. I said let’s, I don’t want my property to have con, uh, pavement everywhere. And I said, let’s make the driveway as little as possible and just aren’t right in. So it’s coming you, you, you, I think you’re picturing seeing car coming like there, you wouldn’t see the driveway because it would actually tail right in front and go right into that garage. It, it would be. Go as far back as your own driveway. Yes, yes, yes, so I think that that also. I’ve been very, very mindful of my neighbors during this process. Yeah, it, it seems like you guys have. Your plan’s been thought out again, you met with the building inspector Pryor. The building inspector has already given his point. We’ve given our points. You’re going to landscape. I mean, can we, I guess the verbal agreement that you are going to landscape some sort of tree line. Along that property line. So, will, will you guys take a verbal agreement that they will do trees along that property line. Good. OK, Bob, I think we, we were asking the abutters, abutters is that I’ve already spoken to my wife, my daughter about extending that fence to again define that property line so right now it cuts around, but we’ve left this other areas wide open. Once this house is there. We were gonna Come across towards your fence. And that would close your area off because you own part of that in the back I’m sure you know that we know exactly where the property line is. It was surveyed for the pool. It was done again, so we would do that, but I’m not, I don’t want to be held to, you know, this expensive ornamental fence to somebody else ornamental friends, not ornamental friends like so slowly plant trees, you know, if I have deep pockets, maybe I’ll do that, but other than that. Or it’s something where you Just forget cause I think we’re getting into touchy touchy territory with, right. Unless it’s a verbal agreement that you guys will do some sort of planning. We, I don’t think we should step in on this one. Yeah, yeah, I’m not, I’m not proposing that we condition anything but just trying to, to, to mediate the parties to make sure that there’s, I mean, that would be beautification of the property as well, so. We’re, we’re all for that. We’d like to make everything look right. So I think our question is for the abutters that the landscaping that you’ve heard about the the the the fencing that you’ve heard about does that? Is that like is that some of your, your privacy concerns. I mean, overall concerns are that we bought a piece of property in Hamilton, right, with a vision and I understand people can change their properties and they have the right to do what they want with their properties. As a zoning board, you’re setting a precedent that people who have Extra acreage can then put, you know, an accessory dwelling right next door to it. So it is 2 separate houses. We’re talking 13, 1400, 1500 total square feet of an additional property on their, you know, next to their primary inspector. So I understand. So that’s why we’re here tonight to ask the questions to get clarification, to understand if it fit within the bylaws as they’re stated. I still don’t agree fully that it fits within the purpose and intent, but that’s. your job and Yeah, and the 4 of us seem to be. They have the right to accessory, they have the right to the apartment. They’re doing it as one. So, and the building inspector also found that so. We We’re not going to try and overturn the building inspector when he Has also laid out the regulations and we’re just confirming like this is not some. They’re not building a 55,000 square foot house on the property on 5 acres. It’s. And they’re the only, the only thing I would request is, you know. Once you move in, like proof either like proof of sale house or. You know, registered voter at Hamilton. That way we know it’s legit and then the building is back during in all of our questions are done. It’s an ADU. So, um, at this point, I think we moved the boat. I would accept a motion. I motion we move to vote on the accessory drilling unit with the attached garage. I would accept a second. My second and Phillip. All right, roll call vote. Andy Phillip. I David Parent chief Stephen Derocher, I with the caveat that that 75 square feet cannot be. Yes, with the condition, uh, we’ll add the extra condition. I’ll make Bruce write it. Yes, that, uh, that the, um, that 75 square foot entryway cannot be made habitable space. Uh, the chair has 14 days to write the decision, 2 days, there’s a twenty-day appeal period after that, um, after which point you’ll be able to obtain a building permit. Or do you have any immunities to All right, yes, that was our last application, um, I suggest that, um, I feel like we’ve done this in the past that because Bruce was a party to the meetings for which we are approving minutes that he should be. Yeah, one to vote on the minute, so I propose that we hold off on voting on the minutes until next month. OK, um, I have no updates. OK, I vote on we suspend the minute vote until Bruce is back. Oh, do we have to, do we have to vote on, uh, no we’re good, yeah, we can just we’re just gonna push and push until next time, yeah. Stephen, thanks Stephen, thanks Thanks, thanks to David for being the, uh, acting chair to the acting chair, putting that on record. Can I just ask a simple question, Stephen. Did everybody vote that needed to vote on that? Uh, OK, just 3 votes. OK, just OK, just I, I She just doesn’t want this out there, but it’s we we can only go off the regulations. Personal feelings and aesthetics are not our not our back. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thanks guys. Um, I would, uh, see it unless anybody has anything else they want to discuss, I would accept a motion to adjourn. I motion to adjourn. I would accept a second. A second. Roll call vote Andy Phillip Hi T I. I, Stephen Derocher, I. September, see you guys October. Second, I think so. Maybe I’ll be, maybe I’ll be in person one of these.