00:00:01,000 S1: At this point where we are as a board is to make two preliminary decisions. First, we're going to create and present to the town a plan that would be in compliance with the Act's requirements. And and second, we have come up with a preliminary proposal with an approach that we think is the minimum we can do to be in compliance. And that plan, we think is in Wyndham's best interest. Compliance means we are engaging in a zoning exercise. We're creating what's called an overlay zone on two districts in the town, which will allow for a certain density of units as required by the act. Some key points to this, which my colleagues will discuss in more detail, is this is an allowable zoning density. It is not required development because the density is allowed. That doesn't necessarily mean that it will be developed as such, developed at all, or developed at that density. Development activity, as everyone knows, requires water, sewer financing, and demand for the housing units. None of that is obviously available for either of these sites that we're going to talk about tonight. 00:01:29,701 S1: I also want to emphasize, before I turn it over to my colleagues, that there are going to be many opportunities for the entire community to weigh in on this. First, we're going to be considering the details of this at our meetings over the summer. We meet the second Thursday of every month at 7:00, and we always welcome input from the public on our items, which will include developing the details of the overlay zone. Second, once the overlay zone is written, we are going to hold as we are required to do a formal public hearing to take comment from the community, and that may lead to changes in the details of the overlay zone that we're preparing for. And then finally, the whole thing comes up to a special town meeting for a vote by the town this fall, probably in October, there will be a special town meeting. It hasn't been scheduled yet. Um, but everyone in town will have an opportunity to come up and give the thumbs up or the thumbs down to the plan. So lots of opportunity for input. We're interested in what you have to say tonight. Um, and I appreciate you being here and that I'm going to hand it over to Margaret Hoffman and Dan Pescarolo. We're happy to take your thoughts and answer questions after the presentation, which should take about 15 minutes and give you some of the details of where we are now. And I'd ask that you put your hand up to be recognized. Come up to the microphone and give your name so that we can make sure we have it correctly. Um, and above all, I would like everyone here to to please be courteous. We know that this is a hot button issue all across the MBTA communities, uh, region, and we value all our relationships with everyone in this town. So we promise to be courteous and we ask you the same. Thank you. And now I'm going to turn it over to Dan on my left and Margaret. So I'll take the two. So Margaret's going to go first. I get to go for it. Great. 00:03:32,767 S2: Good. Thank you. Ann, um, I just want to thank everyone because. 00:03:38,000 S3: Yeah for sure. 00:03:41,267 S2: Yeah. 00:03:43,367 S3: Right. Okay. You can hear me when I was speaking. Okay. 00:03:48,767 S2: All right. We're, um. Thank you again. My name is Margaret Hoffman. I'm the town planner. Um, Kate Mallory is our, uh, land use director. She's with me and Kate and I have been involved with the planning board in this process. Yeah, we're getting a little reverb. 00:04:07,467 S3: That's good. Let's go ahead. Okay. 00:04:10,567 S2: Um, you seem to be over a little bit. Um, so just a little background on MBTA communities. There is 177 communities in Massachusetts that are considered meta communities. Within those, there are four categories a rapid transit community, which is described as an MBTA community that has within its borders at least 100 acres of developable station area, um, associated with one or more subway stations or a Silver Line bus rapid transit station. The next category is a commuter rail community that does not meet the criteria for rapid transit, and it has within its borders at least 100 acres of developable station area associated with one or more commuter rail stations. Then there are two other categories below that adjacent community just means that it has within its borders 100 acres and is not an adjacent small town which that has within its borders 100 acres of developable station area and has a population density of less than 500 persons per square mile, or a population of not more than 7000 year round residents. Um. Thanks, Kate. Next slide please. So when M is defined by the state as a commuter rail community. Um, even though we have a smaller population, we still have more than 100 acres within that developable station area, which is the half mile around the um, Hamilton Wenham station. Not all of these Is 111 acres are going to be zoned for multifamily housing when M is required to only zone 24 acres. Of those 24 acres, only 20% need to be within that half mile radius, which is 4.8 acres. The state has come up with formulas for calculating the density of these areas, and according to the state requirements, when M's number of units is 365, that doesn't mean we have to create those. Nor does it mean that the actual properties in the district can even accommodate that many units based on septic and other factors. But the number of acres, along with density requirements have to add up to that. The. So the amount of acres within the half mile only needs to be 4.8 and accommodate 78 units, which is 20% of the 365. The rest of the acreage and unit count can be anywhere else that the town determines, as long as it qualifies. So Dan's going to go into the details of those districts in a few minutes. 00:07:02,300 S2: Just the next slide. Yeah, I'll go back one. Kate. So this this slide shows that half mile from the train station within that the state has determined based on excluded land, which is things like wetlands, um, publicly owned properties, um, different categories, they've excluded certain lands. So they determine that within that we have 111 acres of developable land. Um, next slide please. So I know you've all heard many times that this is an exercise in zoning, and the town doesn't have to create any units. That is true. By simply creating the districts and the zoning to accompany the districts. We will be in full compliance. Once it's if it's voted a town meeting. Wenham is currently considered in interim compliance with the state until December 31st. Because we submitted an action plan when we were required to, and the state accepted that because of the December 31st deadline, the town will be holding a special town meeting to allow the community to vote on the adoption. We'll submit that vote to the state if it's a favorable vote. We'll be in compliance. While the Office of Housing and Livable Communities and the Attorney General will review it. 00:08:26,367 S2: So as far as compliance goes, you've already heard that communities that are not in compliance will not receive funding from these three state programs Mass Works, the Housing Choice Grant program, and the Local Capital Projects Fund. Um, for people who aren't familiar Million mass works funds. Public infrastructure projects support growth opportunities, contributing to long term strength and sustainability of the Commonwealth. Wenham does not utilize mass works funding right now, as far as I know, and I don't believe we have in the past. Um, it does support roadway safety in small rural communities. Um, it's at least 10% of the funding has to be awarded to those projects per statute. But again, Wenham doesn't utilize that one. The Housing choice grants, those are only for communities that have been designated as a housing choice community. And Wenham is not a housing choice community. The other one is the local Capital Projects Fund. This is a little bit more difficult to figure out. Um, it's from what I've heard or read. It's a federal program that aims to expand the availability of reliable, high speed internet. It was funded by Arpa funds recently. Um, and it's used especially for rural America, tribal communities and low and moderate income communities. When, again, does not utilize these funds, and I don't know whether Wenham would ever be eligible for those funds. So that being said, um, since this law has been enacted, originally, these three were the only grant programs that you couldn't qualify for. The state has come back and said that there are other additional grant opportunities, that they will take compliance into consideration when you apply for them. Some of those are grant opportunities that I have utilized for the planning Board. Um, there are some planning grants. Um, the municipal vulnerability Preparedness grant program. Again, you're not automatically denied access to those funds, but you compliance is taken into consideration. But right now, that's all we know. We don't know whether the state is going to go further with that and decide that they're going to withhold any other public funding. 00:10:53,067 S3: Um next slide. 00:10:54,167 S2: So we want to talk about density a little bit, because I think density is where people get concerned about what are these units going to look like, how much can they build in each area. So these are this is an example of possible 15 units per acre density. If you see um, the on the three units on point 0.25 acres. So on a quarter acre you could put three three houses side by side. You put three townhouses, um, one acre, they could put 15 units that could look like several different, um, different types of housing. The state's goal here is to create that missing middle housing. I don't think they're hoping For large apartment complexes. I think they're looking more for smaller homes that will fit more families. Um, so next slide. Okay. So this is an actual development that some of you may be familiar with. It's in the town of Hamilton, and this is, um, Willow Streets flats. This is an 18 unit building built on one acre. Um, it's actually that a greater density than what we are proposing at 13 and 17, which you'll see in a bit. Um, this is a mixed use with retail on the first floor and apartments above. They were able to get a septic system and parking on just one acre for 18 units. Um. Next slide. So this is another example of a small development that I found. 00:12:29,567 S3: On the street. 00:12:30,467 S2: It's. Oh, yeah, it's on Willow Street in Hamilton. 00:12:34,267 S3: Yeah. 00:12:35,000 S2: Um, this is another example of similar density to what we're looking at in Wenham. This is a project in Beverly at 26 McKinley Ave. It has 14 residential units on 1.3 acres. Um, so this shows more townhouse. There's a few townhouses and a couple of. They reuse some older buildings on this, I believe, and we're able to create a few extra apartments. So those are some ideas of the density. Just a couple of examples that we're looking at. Um, so I think that ends my portion of the presentation. And Dan Pescarolo will take over the next. 00:13:16,901 S3: Yes, maybe I better. Thank you. 00:13:19,901 S4: Thank you. Margaret. Um, can you hear me? My name is Dan Passarella. I'm the vice chair of the planning board. Um, and we've been at this process as and said for a long time. Um, we met with an outside consultant. I think our first meeting was back in February of 2023, and the goal was to identify areas in town that would comply, that would be districts that would comply with the statutory requirements. Um, so what you should have on the screen is a map with a couple of circles which indicate the two districts that we, as the planning Board, have decided to put forward, um, for this process. And I'm going to go through those in a little bit more detail. If we could go to the next slide. Kate. 00:14:11,968 S4: Okay. So proposed district one we have labeled as um, zero walnut, 100 larch. And this is MF D1. And it is located within the half mile radius. It's a total of 6.3 acres. Um, and on in this district, the density will be 13 units per acre. 00:14:36,167 S3: Now, which can be. 00:14:37,901 S4: Will be. It could be. Sorry. Well, yes. Proposed. It could be. That's right. Um, the minimum that we have to meet for zoning is we have to zone for up to 73 units within the half mile acre to meet the minimum. Um, now, you may be asking, why are we picking a district? Uh, that's 6.3 acres. If we only need to have 4.8. I'm sorry. I'm trying to speak loudly, but not destroy this microphone. Um, we had to pick a slightly larger district size here because under the state's guidelines, they would not let us split parcels. And we also had to have an area that was contiguous. So the, um, if we go to the next slide, I think you can you can see what the two parcels are. So this is one, um, I believe lot 20 here is owned by the Hamilton One LLC. And lot 21, the smaller parcel is owned by the Haverhill Gas Company. This is behind, uh, Crosby's behind the parking lot. Um, and next slide, please, Kate. 00:15:51,868 S4: So, multifamily overlay district two. Is it Boulder Lane? It's a total of 27 acres. And the density here is slightly higher will be 17 up to 17 units per acre. And the reason for this is that under the state guidelines, we have to meet an average density of 15 units per acre across the whole district. Um, so because district one is slightly less, this needs to be slightly higher. Um, and if we go to the next slide. 00:16:23,868 S3: Then explain the tiny town. 00:16:26,267 S4: Yes. And I'm good here. So this the boulder lane is just off of 128 near Gordon College. Lot one is owned by the Brady Development Corporation, and lots two, three A and three B are owned by the town of Wenham. 00:16:45,200 S3: So if you can. 00:16:47,267 S4: You can go to the next slide. 00:16:50,400 S4: So what can the town regulate in this process? Um, we can impose an affordability requirement of up to 10%, um, when an already satisfies its affordable housing, um, threshold, I think we're at 12.7% or so. Um, so we can also impose dimensional requirements like setbacks, building height, density, minimum parking requirements, site plan review, septic regulations, conservation. We cannot impose restrictions on age of occupants, number of bedrooms, size of bedrooms or number of occupants. 00:17:34,000 S4: Next slide please. 00:17:37,467 S4: So we are in the process of working on, uh, an an amendment to the zoning bylaw for the proposed districts. Um, that is still being revised. It will be available before we go to our public hearing and town meeting. What the proposed zoning so far includes a 50 foot buffer requirement, two parking spaces per unit. Bicycle parking required, an open space requirement and an allowance for mixed use um, but not a requirement. Site plan review is required prior to submission. Building permits. Again, the 10% affordability, um and the density in the two districts would be 13 and 17. 00:18:23,901 S3: For me, once. 00:18:25,000 S4: We have the last slide. So what are the next steps in this process? We will create these final districts and put them forward with a bylaw proposal, and hold a public hearing on that. The final proposal will be submitted to the Select Board for inclusion on the warrants. And then we need to go to town meeting in the town needs to vote as to whether whether they want to approve this or not. Um, the special town meeting date will be approved. This. The vote to approve the proposed zoning will be simple majority the under the new statute, not two thirds that was part of the three act. So with that, um, I think we'll move on to questions. So if you do have questions, is Chair Weeks mentioned at the beginning? Please come up to the microphone, identify yourself and read it straight Street or something like that. 00:19:23,467 S3: Yeah. 00:19:23,901 S1: Yeah. We'll take that rest. Thanks. And we're happy to hear from you. 00:19:32,067 S1: Come on up. 00:19:40,100 S4: Hi, I'm Tom Starr. 41 Pleasant Street. 00:19:42,667 S3: Whoa. Can you pull it up a little, Tom? 00:19:46,000 S1: It's not meant for someone. Your height. 00:19:50,367 S5: Tom Starr, 41 Pleasant Street. That shouts. 00:19:55,767 S3: It. 00:19:56,400 S5: So it sounds like you have a pretty good plan. Did you hear that? 00:20:02,167 S4: Yes. 00:20:02,868 S5: Okay, but. So I've been. I just have some questions based on reading in the globe. And there was a program at WBur this afternoon, and one of the communities they talked about was Sudbury, which very creatively zoned areas of town where there already are apartment buildings, and that seemed to comply. Um, so I wonder if that's something we can consider. Like, I don't know what the areas would be. Would it possibly be Maple Street or Enon Village? I can understand why they might not qualify, but I just wondered if you could say anything about that type of strategy. 00:20:44,200 S1: Well, as you heard, at least 4.8 acres of the district needs to be within half a mile of the station, right? 00:20:51,567 S5: So you've got that. 00:20:52,467 S1: And we don't have any apartment units within that part of town. 00:20:56,868 S3: Right. Right. 00:20:59,267 S1: I suppose it would be possible to choose a different site from Boulder Lane. Um, we felt like high density of 17 units and per acre in the center of town might not be what the town preferred. 00:21:14,767 S5: Right. 00:21:15,267 S1: And I don't know the density of the maples. 00:21:18,601 S3: Yeah. Do you? know, there's 45 minutes. You know the number of viewers. We don't. 00:21:26,868 S1: And I think it's a great it's a great question. We can figure out what the density there is. 00:21:32,601 S5: Yeah. 00:21:33,801 S3: Um, please. 00:21:34,868 S5: So and then, um, sorry. 00:21:37,067 S4: Just to. 00:21:37,567 S1: Have one more. 00:21:38,367 S4: Follow up to add one of the scenarios we did look at was the housing authority site at Union Village. So that that was considered. Um, one of the issues with that is the size of that site. I can't remember exactly, but it's 24, 25 acres. So it would have involved us, um, having to create a district much larger than what our minimum would have been. 00:22:04,000 S5: Delegate I see. Okay. And then could you say, in your opinion, like, how much development you think would eventually be built on with the zoning that you're talking about? 00:22:18,868 S1: Again, Development requires a lot of things. It requires demand for housing. It requires financing. It requires water and sewer. And and just because you zoned something for 15 units an acre, doesn't mean that that's what's going to get developed. And we as the planning board don't have any control about that. All we can do is try to create a zone that will have, um, the characteristics, you know, the height limits, the setbacks, the, the screening, the parking, the bicycle access, maybe mixed use. That would be a most benefit to the town and that would fit in to the to the town's character. Um, so we can do that, but we can't, you know, predict what private people or developers will choose to do with that. 00:23:17,801 S5: Right. So would you say with the restrictions that you're planning to put in, that it could ease the development, could either go the way of the the units in Hamilton that you showed the slide up, which is more like an apartment building, but it also could be townhouses or it like you showed in the second slide. Is that kind of equal chance for people? 00:23:41,801 S3: It's it. 00:23:42,767 S1: In the downtown area, it's 4.8. 00:23:45,367 S3: Acres. Right. 00:23:47,367 S1: And and and so it could be I would imagine it would be more like the Willow Street kind of situation. I would hope that it would be a mixed use kind of thing to add to the commercial base of the town as well. I mean, I think that that's what we will put in that, you know, that's what we're planning anyway to put in is it is the possibility that that could occur. Um, but again, we don't have any control over what a developer comes in with, right? 00:24:19,767 S5: And that's another. Just the question, was the shopping center considered like in other words, building a another story on top of the shopping center? Is that just not possible to consider? 00:24:30,601 S1: Well, the shopping center is actually in Hamilton. 00:24:33,000 S5: The whole thing. 00:24:33,601 S1: Yeah. 00:24:33,868 S5: So yeah. Very confusing. 00:24:35,667 S1: No, we can't say Hamilton and I don't know the answer to the the obvious follow on question, which is what is Hamilton doing? I do know that Hamilton is considering a sort of comprehensive zoning exercise for their downtown area in general. And factoring this, um, these state requirements into that. But they have more of a commercial base in that area than obviously than Wenham does. So we're sort of more looking at trying to do this Greenfield. And they've already got property down there that's in the range, as you saw that Willow Street, um, apartment building in the range of this kind of density. 00:25:15,968 S3: So. Yeah. 00:25:16,801 S5: Yeah. I apologize, it came in a little bit late, but I think you were saying something about the train station being in Hamilton. Is that right? And so that we were in adjacent community rather than a train station community. 00:25:28,367 S3: Right. 00:25:28,601 S1: I think we are technically a train station community. The question was, or adjacent community, but the question was, did we qualify as a small adjacent community, which would have gotten us significantly less responsibility. And because we have 111 unit acres in that half mile area instead of 100 acres in that half mile area, we don't qualify as a small adjacent community. Unfortunately, we tried to figure this out. 00:25:55,567 S3: And yeah. 00:25:57,000 S1: The state has told us, no, you're you're. 00:25:59,000 S3: In even. 00:25:59,968 S5: So okay, finally, I thought I heard that Wenham had joined the Rockport lawsuit. Is that true? 00:26:06,467 S1: I think there were some Wenham residents who attempted to intervene and were denied access to that. But I think as a planning board, we decided that we don't want to spend the town's legal resources on noncompliance up front. If the town votes down the proposal that we put forward. Then at that point we figure it out and we go from there. But but we think that the best course of action for the town, with the limited financial resources we have, is not to engage in a lawsuit, if that might be fine for a larger community who has in-house counsel and resources, but not for Wyndham. So that was a judgment call we made as a board to try to comply as best we can in the best interest of the town, and then put it out for the town to vote on and see where we are at that point. 00:27:03,167 S5: Yeah. Makes sense. Thank you for your work. 00:27:05,667 S1: Of course. Anyone else? 00:27:10,467 S3: Hi. 00:27:11,100 S6: Hi. David. Rosman. Hi, Anne. 00:27:13,000 S1: Um, can you just state your address? I mean, I know where you live. 00:27:17,367 S3: But. 00:27:17,567 S6: 1010 Perkins Street. On the litigation question, I was going to ask if there is litigation over this issue and, uh, the the validity of the, of the statute. Can you guys expound on that a little bit? 00:27:30,567 S1: There is some litigation on going. I don't know all the ins and outs in the immediate detail. I don't know if, Dan, do you want to give it a shot of that? It's not my area. 00:27:38,100 S4: So it just as an overview, um, the the litigation that has been in the news the most has been the town of Milton, um, that refused to comply. And before that happened, the attorney general threatened to sue the town if they did not comply. She has followed through on her threat. They are in litigation. Um, and I, I believe I know that Milton has answered the complaint. I'm not sure if they asserted counterclaims or not, but I know that they were pretty vigorous in the affirmative defenses that they asserted in the case, and they are represented by a large law firm in Boston. 00:28:18,667 S6: Um, Kopelman and Paige, I'm assuming that a firm that does a lot of municipal law, I'm assuming. But, um, do you guys know is there a Rockport lawsuit to that? The gentleman just referenced? 00:28:29,767 S4: There is there is litigation in Rockport. It's a slightly different posture. I don't know all the details of the Rockport case. I do know that, um, as Anne said, there were a couple of groups who've tried to intervene as parties in that suit on, um, the plaintiff side. Um, there's a group of residents from Hamilton who's a group of residents from Wenham. Um, I believe their initial motion intervened, was denied, but I don't know if that's been entirely foreclosed or not. So, and, and other towns have taken a different path to that They have indicated that they don't intend to comply, but there's not other active litigation with them yet. 00:29:15,167 S1: Is it true? I think, that the posture in Rockport, as Rockport approved the kind of zoning that we're talking about for themselves, and then a group of residents, um, sued the town over that action. 00:29:32,667 S4: Yeah, I just don't. 00:29:33,701 S1: We're not sure. Okay. 00:29:34,767 S6: Fair enough. No, I appreciate that. 00:29:36,501 S4: But I can tell you that the attorney general has taken the position that for the other towns that have said we're not going to comply, we don't have to comply until the end of this year. So she's saying the position that, well, technically you're not out of compliance yet. But when you are right, what will you need to do? 00:29:55,868 S1: I also think it is not clear what happens if we put forward a an overlay zone. We approve it as a board. It goes to town meeting and it's voted down. I don't know if that puts us out of compliance technically, or if it's goes back to the drawing board and we're we're totally about to start again. And if this is all green ground for, um, under this because it's a new statute and it's really just rolling out. 00:30:24,267 S6: I was wondering what if we vote and comply and then the statute gets struck down. Can can we can we rewind or unwind? 00:30:32,467 S1: We can hold another public hearing to take that away if we decide we wanted to do that. But that's like four steps ahead. 00:30:41,701 S6: That's down the chessboard. Okay. Thank you. 00:30:44,968 S1: Thank you for your question. 00:30:51,467 S1: Hello. 00:30:52,100 S2: Hi, Stacy. 00:30:53,367 S1: Three Dexter Lane. So I guess my biggest concern is our infrastructure and the lack of it. I mean, every time we have issues with water,, sewer, all that. Um, I see one of the areas you have are considering this boulder lane. I've heard that, you know, you're going to go through Beverly. Beverly has fought it. We can't develop in that area. And I know it's a proposed area. And that all you're saying is it's a piece of land and that you're pre it to the state. But I'm still saying that there's been issues back and forth on that. And then to add to that, you know, Gordon College has sold some property and they're talking about developing that for, you know a lot of units. So I'm just and that was denied so far. I don't know where it's at now. 00:31:45,968 S7: We haven't had a proposal yet from them. 00:31:48,167 S1: Okay. Just I know that preliminary said they did not have the what to not get. 00:31:54,767 S7: They don't have water. 00:31:55,667 S1: That's true. So I so I'm just saying that we're a small town and it's I mean, we're having these types of issues with water, you know, the infrastructure. And I know it's hard that we need to get the funding from the state because we could um, but at the same time, we're how far do we push back to say we don't have the water capabilities, the infrastructure to really comply? If they push nutty. 00:32:26,200 S1: I take it. But I think. 00:32:29,467 S7: My colleague Rick would would like to respond. 00:32:31,801 S6: Hi. Thank you for your comments. I'm very concerned about water and infrastructure, but I can't. Oh I'm sorry, how close do I have to get? Okay, great. I'll just talk really loud. Can you hear me without the microphone? But I'm really concerned about water and infrastructure. Water specifically. Um, and in there, there's a funding bill before the state Senate today where they're trying to propose $1.2 billion in, um, funding to extend the NWR to some communities on the North shore. The big problem is we are right. We don't have water, so they are trying to fix those problems as well. Um, because if Beverly and Salem and Danvers are off the Ipswich River reservoirs, all the other small towns, um, can then benefit from that as well. So water is a problem. 00:33:18,801 S1: Yes, I did, I did know about that. And I mean, I just think that when we had our drought and all the wildlife that were dying because of all the water that was taken out of the river. So I'm just saying that. 00:33:31,701 S6: Can also speak to your neighbors about reducing their water usage on their lawns. Uh, that's one of the biggest factors in all these towns on that. So that's a concern too. 00:33:40,000 S1: Okay. 00:33:40,300 S7: I wonder if the water commissioner wants to have a word about this. I mean, I will just say that as a zoning, this is a zoning exercise. As we said, if a developer were to come in, they would have to find the water. They would have to find the sewer. They would have to get the financing. They would have to put a package together. And wherever we put this and whatever the details of it are, that's always going to be true. Um, so what we've just we've confirmed and decided to do is to put something forward and give the town the opportunity to vote on it. 00:34:12,868 S1: Yeah, I understand it's an exercise that you're doing, and I'm just I took it to a point where the state's going to mandate. Well, guess what, you're building on that area that you. 00:34:21,868 S7: Well, again, nobody's it's not a mandate to build. It's an approval option to build if someone wants to. It's not a mandate. We don't have to build anything. No one has to build anything. But just to be clear about that, because people I know, it's tough sometimes to think about what zoning is and isn't, um, what it is, is an approval process, an opportunity, what it is not as a mandate to develop. And Dan has a follow up point, I think. 00:34:50,868 S4: So you've heard of say this is a zoning exercise. This isn't a building exercise, but you I mean, you're still right to be concerned because the zoning part of this is this is creating by. Right. Zoning. So it means that we don't have special permit authority over. Potential developments. That would be by right in the districts that we create. However, and as of right, this is not a building exercise. Whether you can build on Boulder land is not our problem. That would be a future developers problem. Um, or large walnut, but it's even one step removed from a zoning exercise. What this really is, what we're doing is a compliance exercise. We are the state is requiring us to do this right. So this is we are just putting forward this potential compliance model. Right. For this is what the zoning would be. Whether it actually gets built is several steps removed. 00:35:48,367 S1: So thanks. 00:35:50,300 S7: And I don't know if Ernest, do you want to speak to the water issue? Ernest Daschle, our water commissioner continues. 00:35:57,267 S6: To actually. 00:35:57,667 S4: Nine. 00:35:57,868 S6: Foster Street. 00:35:58,667 S7: And you're going to have to speak into the mic. I'm so sorry that it's very late. 00:36:03,367 S4: Nine Foster. 00:36:04,100 S6: Street. 00:36:04,601 S4: Um, going to the Water commissioners. 00:36:07,000 S6: And in general, our town has enough water. 00:36:10,667 S4: So our our potable purposes. 00:36:13,667 S6: It's when we have irrigation that we start to run up against our limitations for pumping. But that. 00:36:20,100 S4: Said. 00:36:20,667 S6: We have considered the Pulte Homes proposal in a very draft form and decided that we did not have enough water for that type of size development and, um, something more limited within the town area. It may be something that we can have, but any major development will cause us to get close to a permit limit or, you know, our withdrawal limits. So it would preclude additional development in town. And I think you mentioned Boulder Lane. Uh, yes. Our water system does not go quite that far. Uh, Gordon. Colleges on Beverly. Salem. The Pulte home project approached the Beverly Salem water board about water and sewer, and they told them that they would not be able to provide that. So, as Dan mentioned, for Boulder Lane, even if it was zoned as a potential, that developer would have to secure their own water ability to before they had the ability to, um, to build on that lot. 00:37:24,601 S4: Right. 00:37:25,067 S7: I think water is definitely a concern in this town. There's no doubt about it. 00:37:30,400 S6: You mean. 00:37:31,767 S8: Uh, Nancy Flynn? Um, science Lane. 00:37:36,167 S1: A couple. 00:37:36,567 S8: Of things. Um, people need to be aware of, and I apologize. It came in late, so I'm being redundant, I apologize. One of the things people need to know is that each of these units is unlimited amount of bedrooms and unlimited amount of occupancy. And the most important thing we will be giving up our home rule. If we give up our home rule and we comply to this, we lose our rights for and the state takes over all the rights within that zoning. And they can take people's private property by eminent domain. And once we give it up, we can't get it back. Now. 00:38:34,467 S7: Again, this is a zoning exercise. It's not a state. The state will not take any responsibility for the property. I'm asking. I asked. You may have missed this at the beginning of the meeting. If you came in late. I asked everyone here to be courteous. Courteous to the people next to you. Courteous to us. Thank you. 00:38:59,868 S4: Salvatore. Celeste. Geronimo! 00:39:02,367 S7: Thank you. 00:39:03,467 S4: Um. I'm looking. 00:39:06,267 S5: At. 00:39:06,367 S4: This, and I know you're talking about. It's a zoning assist. 00:39:10,000 S1: Housing zoning. 00:39:12,167 S7: That's so hard. 00:39:13,267 S4: To. There's absolutely no such thing as a zoning exercise. That's like opening up a new door and saying, well, no one's going to walk through it. Trust me, I know a lot of developers. They'll walk through it. If you allow this to happen, it's going to cascade. I kind of remember when they told us they were going to take the mask play, told me stop when the Mass pike was finished. Never happened. Okay, I'm surprised I don't have one at the end of my driveway, but what's going to happen here is right now, I think you're all being short sighted. And the reason why you're being shortsighted is you're trying to avoid litigation and punitive measures against the town. Now, we don't take any Massachusetts funding for any of these things, so they can't do what they're doing in Milton by holding $140,000. Okay. I think for a wall, a seawall. Big deal. Okay. $140,000 is nothing. And as far as the litigation goes, if you think you have litigation or trying to avoid it now at the beginning stage, it's going to be worse down the road because as soon as you open the door to this, the reason why people come to Wynnum and Hamilton, the school system and the rural suburban nature of this community, that's why they come here. Okay. If you take that away, what's going to happen is you're going to start seeing influx of people that are going to create additional need and additional dependent dependence upon the state government. And make no mistake, there are elements in the federal government and the state government that desire to either curtail or eliminate suburbia. This is one of the mechanisms that they use to do it. This right now you might be saying, oh, well, we don't want to litigate litigate it now, litigate it now before it festers, before it gets worse, because what's going to happen is down the road, the litigation is going to get worse because two things are going to happen. You're going to have a problem with your school system. You're going to have a problem with your infrastructure, and you're going to see a decrease in the value of your homes. People live here. This is a relatively upscale community. I moved here to get away from most of what you guys are getting ready to do. We have very little water. I can't even turn on my sprinklers. Okay. Uh, I pay huge taxes for garbage can. That's about the size of my kitchen basket. Okay. And you want to lay this out to us? Don't do it. This is a mistake. This is a really big mistake. And it won't end And here it won't. I'm looking at this, and I can see that there's not much in the way of the meta punitive problems. Okay. But don't worry about litigation. Tell me what the upside is. Tell me what this will do for our community. 00:42:00,868 S7: I think. 00:42:01,501 S4: I can't see. 00:42:02,000 S7: It. I think what we would like to do is put a proposal in front of the town and ask the town to vote on it. Everyone here can come in. 00:42:10,267 S4: I understand. 00:42:11,367 S7: Invite you to do that. 00:42:12,567 S4: Yeah, but you're painting. It is. Oh, this is just a proposal. It's really not anything. I know a lot of developers. As soon as you open this door and you zone that, someone will walk through it, they will develop it, and they don't care. Because when they come in here and it's an opportunity for multifamily units, it's worth putting in infrastructure. And they'll do it. And they don't care how they do it, but they'll get it done. And then the next round, what are you going to do with the next litigation and the next punitive measure when you are dependent upon the MBTA? When you do get these things, because of the influx of people that you're bringing into the town, what are you going to do that the litigation is going to be real, that either that or your quality of life is going to get out. That's what this is. 00:42:54,701 S7: Thank you for your comment. Yes, yes. 00:42:57,567 S9: Senator Clinton. Yes I did. 00:43:01,667 S5: I, I. 00:43:02,701 S4: I just. 00:43:03,367 S5: Have a. 00:43:03,667 S4: Question not. 00:43:04,601 S5: Necessarily for a response, but I'm curious. 00:43:09,200 S4: If. 00:43:10,567 S5: For example. 00:43:12,367 S4: It could it could. 00:43:13,267 S5: Be to you and I'd. 00:43:14,367 S4: Love. 00:43:14,501 S5: Your. 00:43:14,701 S4: Response or anybody's response, because this is something I think about. 00:43:18,767 S5: The quality. 00:43:19,367 S4: Of life in Wenham and the. 00:43:22,868 S5: Possibility. 00:43:23,868 S4: As you suggest, that it could be diminished school, uh, school funding. So this is a question. Would we get state funds, maybe a discretionary factor in receipt of state funds towards a school? School is going to cost X number of dollars. We already have trash cans that are getting smaller and smaller, and we haven't even started that process yet. Are you willing to pay more for the new school? Because we don't want to have the development, and that's not. That's a question for everybody to consider. It's a hypothetical. I realize I'm not trying to sway opinions, but I do sit here and think, if this goes down a path where increasingly funds that are potentially available to Wenham are pulled off the table because we do not comply, are we, as a town, willing to pay more for the projects? 00:44:23,601 S9: That's that's the exact sector. 00:44:26,968 S7: And it's where we are. 00:44:28,601 S9: Well, yeah. Yes. Well we can't we can't hear you without your microphone. 00:44:33,467 S1: Get the mic. 00:44:34,968 S4: And could you please repeat your name? My name is Salvador. Last. I'm at 20 period 23rd in Rome. Thank you. That is the track. I don't have any chart. I don't have anybody. I don't have anybody in the school system. But yes, I am willing to pay more for that school because this that school brings value to my home. That's what. That's what gives me my equity in my home. So yes, I would pay for that. And I don't even have any kids in this and school. 00:45:02,367 S7: System just to qualify. You pay more, you pay the, the, the decrement that we don't get from the state because we haven't complied. 00:45:10,467 S4: But because we are not depending on the state for all of these things. We have a freedom that most communities don't have. I was I've been a lifelong resident of Massachusetts. I used to live in Peabody, and I remember when they started to see the Pond Village and they said, oh, it's just going to be a zoning thing, and don't worry about it, because it's a wetland. It's a wildlife sanctuary. It was owned by Angelina at the time. They sold it like that, and then they started building. And then you ended up with the tax base that you have in Peabody now, which just keeps on going up. Okay. Um, and the town is deteriorating. I don't know if you've ever gone through Peabody lately, but it's it's falling apart. And the reason is it lost its character of suburbia. Now it almost looks like inner city. And it's going to happen here. And if you don't think it is, you're deluding yourself. Don't do this. It's a mistake. And I. 00:46:07,467 S1: Still wait. 00:46:08,067 S4: To hear what the upside is. I've asked you all what is the upside for the these people here in this room? 00:46:14,868 S7: The upside is complying with the law. 00:46:17,267 S4: That's. 00:46:17,901 S7: And the upside it. 00:46:20,467 S4: That's not a law. That's not a. 00:46:22,567 S7: Law. It is a law. It's a state statute. Okay. And hold on. I have asked everyone please to be kind to one another. We're a small town. We all have to live together. There's no point in yelling at us. 00:46:36,767 S4: You're right. Let me just respond to sort of the general. 00:46:42,100 S7: Theme. 00:46:42,367 S4: Of. 00:46:42,868 S7: Your comments and. 00:46:43,767 S4: Some of the comments I heard from the speaker before you. You said repeatedly, if you allow this to happen, I assume you mean the board sitting here. I just continued contemplating this and allowing. Okay, just let me let me respond. And in a false light, please. 00:47:01,501 S7: Let's let the board members respond. 00:47:04,100 S4: Let me respond. What we are doing okay. We are facing a state mandate and we are following a process. And we are going to put this in front of the town for the town to make a decision. It is not this board's decision about whether we are going to comply. Hold on. It's not this board's decision whether we are going to comply with MBTA three a okay, this has to be approved by the legislative body of the town, which is town meeting. So all of these arguments, I understand this is a hot button issue. Okay, I'm not the biggest fan of the of the statute that came from the state either. Um, it's it's forcing us to do something that we would normally do. However, let's get the characterization right. This is a decision for the town to make. It's where we as a board are not making this decision. We're going to present a plan that would comply. The town is going to have the opportunity to either approve that or disapprove that. So before we start shouting from, you know, the third or fourth row, wherever it's coming from, let's just be civil and courteous here. And it's this is supposed to be an informational session. Okay. So a lot of these things are better directed to town meeting. 00:48:17,567 S7: I understand, please come to town meeting. 00:48:19,901 S4: And and I will. And but that's my point tonight. I'm not trying to dissuade you of anything. I'm not trying to stop a vote, but I'm trying to make people understand what I have seen happen in other communities. It's I've seen it and it happens. And right now. The only thing you can say is while we're trying to be in compliance, what does that mean? Compliance. Because what are you going to get a gold star from the mayor? From the governor? 00:48:46,200 S7: No, we're going to get a town vote, which is what this deserves. 00:48:49,501 S4: If these people understand it is a risk because they're. 00:48:53,601 S1: Painting it, that. 00:48:55,000 S4: You're painting it in a light that appears that it's just some kind of a cursory. Well, yeah, we've got to zone it, and we're going to allow it as if it's never going to happen. It's going to happen. Trust me. Can I can I respond in? Yes. Yeah. Uh, I it's, uh, Angus West. I'm sorry. Respond to this. I didn't respond to that. Um, we had the water department over here, but they did. We said we don't have enough water. Okay. 00:49:26,501 S1: I think we should take the stand on it. 00:49:29,067 S4: Uh, Angus. West from Walnut Road. Um. By the way, those of us in the back half of the room couldn't hear any of the comments up here, so I'd like to know what was going on in the water board. Um, first, I want to thank you. 00:49:40,300 S10: Rebecca suggested I hear you that they move forward. If that's the issue. 00:49:44,100 S4: It's really hard to hear. 00:49:45,167 S10: Hope they can move forward. Then you'll be better hearing. 00:49:47,667 S4: Um. 00:49:48,200 S1: It's really hard to hear you. 00:49:50,000 S4: Oh. Is it okay? Um, first, I just want to thank you for taking on a thankless task. This is a highly divisive issue. And your volunteers and I. I hope everyone will treat you with respect. Um. Thank you. I to as many in the room are concerned about this, and I would think you'd like to be forearmed by the time you come to town meeting with this information. You very helpfully said there are four statutes that currently the statute that has been passed are using as a hammer on the towns, and three of those four have virtually no application to win them. The question is the up upside, if there is any here. It's actually avoiding the downside. You reference the school budget capital plans from the state. I'd like you to have as town council by the time of the town meeting. What other weapons can that state legitimately use against us other than those for like denying us school building funds? It's how the federal government obviously gets at every state with its highway funds. You should be able to answer some questions with town council's help, and I imagine that's part of what's going to be litigated, because if all we're going to lose is 100,000 bucks of planning money school. Um, but that's that's that's how I look. 00:51:12,667 S7: Um, yeah. And I'll just say quickly, we're not unfortunately, we're not sure at this point because the attorney general has not made it clear precisely whether she will stop at the language of the statute or continue. Um, so we are described considering whether or not the town is in compliance in almost any arena where we seek funding. I think that's part of. 00:51:35,667 S4: The you might want to ask some of the other towns, like Rockport and others, to weigh in on that, to find out, because they can hire top legal talent to say, can this be challenged in court? All right. Question two I've always taken comfort in when I'm being so damned wet that you can't build very easily. And we don't have city sewer. It's stopped at the edge of Dodge Street when I was growing up, and that is really what's protected Wenham more than anything else. No sewer. I was shocked when you showed the picture of 19 units on Willow Street put in on one acre. I always thought that the Conservation Commission protected us because, you know, you literally have can't have a septic field for 19 units on an acre. So is that the new technology that you can actually put these 73 units on five acres and have the septic system underneath it, and the corn cob won't be able to stop it. That's my first question. 00:52:31,067 S7: I don't know if someone from the town wants to respond to that. Is there anyone staff ever here? I mean, obviously they built those houses on Willow Street. I don't know if they're tied up to a package plant or would they have done there? 00:52:43,000 S11: But I do worry selfishly that they had a concern. 00:52:47,067 S7: Yeah, it's definitely not a Conservation Commission issue unless there's a wetland involved. It's the Board of Health would have to approve any septic system that goes in. 00:52:54,868 S4: So we're not sure what's going to happen on this 6.3 acres. 00:52:59,801 S7: No, we're not sure that's what I'm saying. Can we cannot predict whether or not it's actually going to be. 00:53:06,167 S4: It's certainly abuts the wetlands that are part of the Miles River. Right. It's right up. 00:53:10,367 S7: Against you. 00:53:10,901 S4: Cannot really. 00:53:11,801 S7: Build on those. 00:53:13,067 S4: Where the where the gas plant is. All right. Question two and this is really just a color of what's happening around the town. I think somebody already mentioned what the heck Hamilton is going to do. But if we don't know the answer. It's going to have a huge impact with it. But the third part to the tunnel, which may be bigger than this, actually, meta is what Gordon is planning and I think you may have answered it, but I couldn't hear because of the fan. What is the toll, brother 350 unit or whatever the heck it is? Proposal. Where does it stand? What have you heard? Because this could be so much bigger than even this. 00:53:46,667 S7: Okay. Yes. Um, what's Hamilton going to do? You might not have heard my response to that. I'll tell you what they're going to do. They're considering, um, just basically over an overlay of their whole downtown. Right. Because they have that commercial area downtown. So they're considering folding this into all of that, and that's all I have. They haven't done much. They haven't taken community input yet. Um, but that's what we understand. And as far as the sorry. 00:54:13,767 S10: We have tried. 00:54:14,567 S4: To coordinate. 00:54:15,367 S7: With. 00:54:15,601 S4: Hamilton. We've made multiple outreach efforts. 00:54:18,667 S12: It's just. Yeah, they're just not it hasn't gone anywhere. 00:54:21,000 S7: They're just not where we are right now. They're doing this as in a different way that I think they're doing. What did you call it? Margaret. A unified zoning plan for their downtown. 00:54:31,667 S11: And did it in its own beat. 00:54:33,400 S7: Form based code for their downtown. 00:54:35,567 S11: Not sure. We're part of the downtown. 00:54:37,868 S12: Partly right. 00:54:39,267 S11: But we're getting to the same timeline that we are. 00:54:41,801 S7: Yes, they are consciously. Um, and as far as the Pulte Homes question, which is nothing to do with the MBTA zoning, but I'm happy to answer the question. There have been meetings with Gordon and Pulte Homes, but no application has been submitted to the Planning Board at this point. They don't have water, so and they don't have sewer offtake. 00:55:06,567 S12: And to respond to your first question, which was about litigation and what are the arguments, I think I would recommend that you take a look at the the answer or the pleadings in the Milton case, those are publicly available documents. And if you go through the town of Milton's answer, you'll see most of the arguments that would be presented, I think, in these types of litigations. 00:55:29,767 S11: Do you want to summarize speculation? No. 00:55:35,400 S7: Yes, ma'am. Margery. Margery Koski, seven Firkin Street. I have. 00:55:41,367 S11: Three thoughts. Can you hear me? 00:55:44,167 S7: Yes. Yes. 00:55:44,801 S11: Okay. Number one, my dad years ago worked. 00:55:50,367 S1: His heart. 00:55:51,667 S7: Out. 00:55:52,567 S11: To get. 00:55:53,267 S1: Out. 00:55:53,400 S7: Of the. 00:55:53,667 S11: City to build. 00:55:55,801 S1: A house. 00:55:56,267 S11: In Essex, to live in a small community. He did that. He worked hard. He earned it. No one built housing for him. Nobody. Okay. Number two I just heard about. 00:56:11,167 S1: On. 00:56:11,767 S11: Willow Street. 00:56:13,667 S1: When the 40 B was being argued in Hamilton. That area on Willow Street was considered, and they said they could not do septic because they'd have to run it under Patent Park. So I don't know how the builders got away with whatever they did to put housing there. 00:56:35,467 S7: The Willow Street site, just so people know, is behind where the Black cow is. So it sits end. Yes. That picture is is and. 00:56:44,267 S1: There's a okay. There's an okay. 00:56:46,167 S7: I'm just trying to explain where it is. 00:56:47,968 S1: I am on. I don't know where they put it them anyway. 00:56:51,667 S7: Me neither. 00:56:52,601 S1: Okay. 00:56:55,467 S1: Um, we have paid dearly, but we have paid dearly and given up to live in this town. And we've been here for 48 years. My main concern is that we already have water restrictions, and the size of the new schools will be increased by hundreds of millions of dollars and probably need. I'm sorry, but I have to say it interpreters. Because you know who will be getting this housing. Okay, this all started when Biden's campaign promised that they would be bringing the cities into the suburbs, and no one was going to be able to stop it. So laws were passed, people were paid off, agencies formed, developers involved. And Biden still lets glow of millions of illegals. 00:57:56,167 S7: Ma'am, this is a state. This is a state law. It has nothing to do with the federal government. It comes. Please limit your conversation to the points on the table. Thank you. 00:58:05,767 S1: But these people are coming into our towns. 00:58:09,567 S10: Could you specifically tell us who these people are? 00:58:13,167 S1: We'll find out. Well, we. 00:58:16,167 S10: I think, you know. 00:58:17,400 S1: Everybody worked so hard to be here. Do we have to give up everything that we gave up things of ourselves just to be able to live in this town? I'm almost done. Biden started the housing crisis, and we will have to change our lives just because of him. It's not fair. I don't have to give up anything in my town. You should have the town we always tried to keep up to. And just because it started at the federal level there, dribbling down into Massachusetts and Massachusetts wants it. Who even needs to work? Who even needs to live by the MBTA? How do you know these people are going to work in Boston? How do you know? Are they going to have cars to drive to their own places? They will have cars. They'll have two cars. 00:59:08,501 S7: That please come to town meeting and vote. 00:59:11,100 S1: Pretty good, because they can get in the car and get on to on 28. I never had anybody help me get to my jobs. No I didn't, I had to go to Redding once to work. And I hate to tell you why I had to go to Redding. Thank you. I hope people understand that we don't have to give up our town. 00:59:29,467 S7: Thank you for your comments. Please come to town meeting. 00:59:37,467 S7: Hi. Lori Hale one, Virginia. Um, I have a question related to the towns that have done what you're all doing and done this exercise and voted and that's been voted down. Have you connected with any of those town planners to understand if there's been any litigation or action taken against them? Because I'm curious. I take the benefit of a wait and see approach, because once we do it, it's hard to roll it back. Are they getting how I know towns like Milton that were just not even willing to put something forward, and we're locally against it. We're easy targets. But what are the towns where the people are? I think that's what happened in Rockport. I think they voted it in. And then as Coalition of Citizens filed suit. 01:00:21,801 S12: So I'm unclear about the Rockport litigation. I thought it was there was some sort of change, but it Milton initially approved and then they held a special town meeting and voted against it. 01:00:33,367 S7: Yeah, I feel like they made themselves a bit of a target by being so vocal about being first and being first, and that's that's kind of my question, my point. So for towns that are going to go ahead and put forth a plan and the town votes no. Could you I'll take that as a homework to check in with those groups and saying are you hearing anything. 01:00:52,567 S12: Well, I think. 01:00:53,467 S7: That's a great it's a great comment. We can I would love we have a lot of process ahead of us and we can certainly that would be helpful. Um, the question, the other question I had and David, I believe you mentioned school funding, as far as I understand, because I've been to all of the school, new school building meetings that 75 million, potentially up to 75 million. With the current proposed plan is committed. So are you saying with knowledge that that's potentially in jeopardy, or are you saying we don't really know? Because as far as I know, that one is already if we were to vote yes on that, and that's a whole mess, because Hamilton would need to vote yes on their planning because they are presuming the new school would be a cutler, which means removing wind turbines. There's a lot of resistance to that. Assuming that's not the issue we're talking about. Is funding really in jeopardy? 01:01:46,901 S12: So I absolutely. 01:01:49,467 S4: Have no idea. 01:01:50,367 S12: I have nothing specific. That wasn't intended to be a scare tactic. It was more just a thought exercise for the community, which is. 01:01:57,701 S4: To the point. 01:01:58,567 S12: We have a certain standard of life here. Are we are we willing, potentially, hypothetically, to pay more for that if that is the case? Because I think that's an important exercise, and I just pivot slightly and say the following parallel to the MBTA through a process. We've just gone through a two year master plan process in the town, and that is a wonderful document with a huge implementation plan. And I encourage everyone here to take a look at it, because it really is a more in-depth consideration with a ton of town input into what is the future of Wenham, how do we preserve the characteristics that we care so much about? While acknowledging that in recent history our tax rate was in the top five in the state when it was over $19 per thousand. And we have a vocal meeting tonight to talk about this. But then there's another vocal conversation about our tax rate. And so there was a great amount of consideration around fiscal stabilization for this town. How do we stop an out-of-control tax rate? How do we stabilize our fiscal condition in town? And as part of that, we consider the impact of land use and other strategies where like 99 or 97% zoned for residential, residential, single family residential doesn't generate. Um, at it's probably the lowest use other than exempt properties of generating tax funds for the for the town of any format. And so we're considering what are other types of land use that would generate more net revenue for the town, one of which is mixed use development? It's not the only one you can do commercial. We can do industrial. We can do anything we want within reason. But mixed use is an interesting way to potentially generate more net revenue for the town. And also offering some diversity of of experiences restaurants, nice restaurants, places where the community can come together at town, these types of things. Right. And we put together this plan, which again, I encourage everyone to take a look at, which thinks holistically about this town, about how do we preserve the history and the heritage of our town, the cultural institutions that go back nearly 400 years, while also considering that in 2024, whatever the cause, it is more expensive than ever to maintain this wonderful lifestyle that we have. And how can we move forward in a way that's more, um, thoughtful about increasing net revenue into our town? One thing I'll say about three eight, what that jars me is the volume of potential development. But if we took a step back and wondered, well, what if there was a development on these parcels that was mixed use that generated increased net revenue. Which takes into consideration school participation, increased school participation, but still delivers more net revenue. At least that's what the model shown that we retain from Cambridge Econometrics increases the net revenue to our town and increases the experience of town residents. So get away from the density and think about that. But we can't get away from the density because of what Threea requires. But it's still interesting to consider. If we had a mixed use development, where would it go? This is a more nuanced consideration than either or. It were a horse town or were the next Peabody. Could we be something in the middle that also considers where our tax rate has been and where we want it to go? That was a lot. I apologize, I made you all sit through that, but I just want to contextualize it within the master plan and encourage everyone to take a look at that document and join in on the implementation, because that's really what's happening over the next ten years, irrespective of the three day discussion. 01:06:12,901 S7: Great. Can somebody find out if the $75 million is in jeopardy? Thank you. Yes we. 01:06:19,067 S12: Can. Tracie is. 01:06:20,767 S7: I mean, I've been to all those meetings, I don't. Okay. Thank you. Where can I look for an answer on town page? Or should I circle back with you directly? 01:06:30,200 S12: Uh, and. 01:06:33,901 S13: We're out there. Let's say she is in jeopardy. I said it was people. Yeah, well. 01:06:40,901 S7: Again, it's a hypothetical. It's a because the attorney general has not made clear. 01:06:46,801 S1: What all. 01:06:47,467 S7: This could could be affected by this. We're not. 01:06:52,000 S8: Certain. 01:06:52,701 S7: Right. And I guess I know you reached out and there's been efforts to connect with Hamilton, but because Both. We are have a vested interest in what's going on with them and what they decide, because we do share schools, libraries and other things. And so I will go to their this and tell them we need to work together a bit more because we can't have one voting yes and one voting no and expect to move anywhere on schools. And anyway. 01:07:19,667 S1: Yeah, I think they're doing. 01:07:20,667 S7: It differently because. 01:07:21,601 S1: They have a whole. 01:07:22,100 S7: Different scheme and they're. 01:07:23,868 S1: Again. 01:07:24,100 S7: Not starting from Greenfield the way we are. They're starting from a developed downtown. So yeah. Okay. Thank you. 01:07:36,767 S10: Peter Gwen, seven, shared you out. We've been here 66 years. Went through the school system, put the kids through the school system, voted my share of overrides, left the place. Here's my first question. I'm going to go backwards a little bit with your presentation. Is three a if it becomes law. The half mile radius. Do the residents that live within that half mile radius? Do they lose their zoning rights to the state? 01:08:11,000 S7: No. 01:08:12,100 S1: Three A is. 01:08:13,000 S8: Law. 01:08:14,300 S1: The people who. 01:08:15,267 S7: Live within that half mile radius, unless they're on the parcels that we're talking about the overlay zone on, and there's no one living on those parcels right now are not affected by the zoning. 01:08:26,701 S10: That's good to know, because a lot of us that are very nervous about this are worried about the future. If three A, you're saying three A is law. Yes. If three A is implemented in Wenham. Yes. Correct. And I have the language. Right. 01:08:41,100 S7: Correct. 01:08:42,367 S10: Say I live say I lived at the old Prince property across from the Pingree Field, which is privately owned. The long brown fence on Main Street. Yep. It abuts the railway. 01:08:54,367 S7: It's zoned commercial now. 01:08:56,100 S10: It is so that private residence, whoever it might be now. Would they be subject to state rule on how they sell it or who they sell it to? 01:09:04,567 S7: No. 01:09:05,767 S10: That's great to know. Second question. The engineering drawings that the state has provided about three a about units, bedroom sizes, height. We've seen that from folks from Winthrop. There documents that the state has that are theoretical drawings and engineering and architectural plans for units. I believe you said some of you said in the presentation, some of those have no limit. I think it was one of your bullet points have no limit to the amount of bedrooms that can be per floor. Is that true? 01:09:43,901 S7: I think that I think you may have misunderstood. I think what was said was that we are not permitted, and this is just a function of how zoning. 01:09:53,400 S10: Works to manage to. 01:09:54,367 S7: Manage in Massachusetts. We're not permitted to to limit it in that way. We can. We can't do that. That's not within our authority. Understood anywhere in Massachusetts for any zoning. 01:10:04,868 S10: Let me play that through. Theoretically, if all of us here, for whatever reason, if three A actually implements in Wenham, those particular units are fire our zoning, maybe our, um, building inspector. If that developer decides to really put the minimum of what we saw in state documents size rooms. I think it's and I don't, I don't know for sure, but say eight feet by ten feet, you could have multiple families living in bedrooms. And that's a big fear that some of the other towns have had, especially Salem, of what's happened with some of these build outs with the developers, that there's free reign by the developer through the state support to do what they want to do. Floor by floor in a unit. You heard anything about that? 01:10:58,567 S7: Okay, so so I don't know what I have. I'm not privy to the documents you're talking about that the state is supplied. 01:11:04,767 S10: I think someone else would get them to you if you. If you'd like. 01:11:07,467 S7: What? We're more than happy to take any information people want to offer. But what what we can do and through this overlay zone is we can describe what the density is on the land, what the heights of the buildings are, what the setbacks are, what the the general physical aspects of the of of of the proposal. We can also set up a process by which we get to review it and approve it and and approve it with conditions, approve it without conditions. We can do that as part of our zoning. We cannot specify the number of units, um, except in the density allowed in on the property. What happens in town is not just the planning board review. There's also a water review, there's a fire review, there's a street department building, and the building code has to be met. So there's a whole several, maybe ten layers of review that that development goes through. It's not just the zoning. It's also these other. 01:12:11,000 S10: Understood. 01:12:11,767 S7: Including the Board of Health. And so. 01:12:14,000 S10: It sounds that that. 01:12:15,601 S7: That's. 01:12:16,267 S10: Great. That's how it works. But I want people to know in town though, my understanding which could be wrong is this, that if a unit is built, the developer can start to develop how many they think they can sell for bedrooms per floor. I want my local friends and residents here in one to understand. If that's true. You could have huge volumes of people living in single bedrooms that count as a unit. If that's true, I would encourage the board or others or residents. Look into that because the volume of folks per floor would be tremendous. 01:13:01,567 S7: So happy. I'm sorry. Let me just take this and then turn it to you. The there is a building code. The building code has to be followed as a building inspection. So I'm I'm not going to suggest that you're wrong, but but I think. 01:13:15,968 S10: I'm not suggesting I'm right. 01:13:17,601 S7: Code is. 01:13:18,267 S10: Going to. 01:13:19,567 S7: Have a lot to say about this. 01:13:20,968 S10: And then these seem these slides and they're from the state. I would encourage you to look into that, to see if it falls within the future of how this may go. 01:13:31,567 S7: Thank you for that, Jen. 01:13:32,868 S14: What I was going to say is, is part of this process is developing the zoning for the new district, which we haven't done yet, where it's in process. But to answer your I think the limiting factor on what you or your hypothetical is suggesting is going to be septic. I don't think you can have an unlimited. 01:13:49,701 S10: That might offset, if that's. 01:13:51,701 S14: Right. I have an unlimited number of bedrooms in a unit because of the septic restrictions. 01:13:56,467 S10: But I would encourage everybody to to continue to ask about that. Thank you. And I understand the third point I just want to make is it seems to me that it would be impossible that if three A as law becomes Wenham, it will be impossible for us as townspeople to forecast the property tax increase down the road. There's so many other things that are on our plate. The impact to increase taxes to support such a buildout. I heard this gentleman talk about net possible net revenue. Do we have formulas on that? Do we know that? Great. Then direct me to it. I'd love to see it. 01:14:45,367 S7: It's in the master plan and the particularly the Cambridge. 01:14:49,200 S10: Because it seems it seems overwhelming when we consider the school district and its needs at 70 plus cents per dollar of one time taxpayer dollars. The future of infrastructure support might be unbearable to many, regardless of their home income. And to move forward on such a thing with no real understanding of what predicting the future might be like maybe ten years from now, how are we going to get rid of the turf over at the regional because it can't be recycled? Other challenges that are ahead of us and they're dealing with right now, this amount of infrastructure potential. It's hard to believe there would be a net gain on it. But I don't know, maybe, you know, maybe you don't know. Maybe it's an idea. 01:15:40,367 S7: I really need to suggest that you look at the master plan and the and the econometrics report, because we've done a lot of work trying to think these questions through. And I appreciate your comments about them. 01:15:51,267 S10: Great. Thank you. 01:15:52,801 S14: And just general background about three a um, it was approved by Governor Baker in 2021. Margaret. 01:16:02,901 S8: Uh, yeah. 01:16:03,667 S7: 20 2129. 01:16:06,367 S14: Yeah. 01:16:06,767 S7: So so Charlie Baker. Thanks. 01:16:09,501 S14: Yes. 01:16:10,501 S12: Thank you. Charlie. Uh, so, yeah, I just have a follow up about the master plan, and I appreciate David's comments, but I, I, I'm seeking clarity on this because when I looked at the Cambridge econometrics and I was there when they made the presentation, um, you know, it seemed to state quite clearly that we would need to have over a million square develop over 1,000,000ft² of commercial space to reduce the tax rate by $1 per thousand. So I. 01:16:45,968 S10: Don't. 01:16:46,667 S12: Know if there's some way you could calculate if there was mixed use on these three properties. You know just what benefit we would get. But it doesn't sound like it would be substantial. 01:16:58,801 S7: I think the point is it would be more better than just the residential alone. I think that's the point. 01:17:06,100 S12: Yeah. 01:17:06,701 S7: But David, do you want to take that one? 01:17:09,267 S12: Um, well, I, I think two. 01:17:12,801 S4: Points. 01:17:13,367 S12: One. 01:17:14,400 S13: Looks it. 01:17:15,868 S12: A mixed use development is not going to a single mixed use development is not going to stabilize our fiscal situation. Um, the Cambridge Econometrics report was eye opening in kind of adjusting my understanding of the amount of, um, different, um, types. 01:17:37,267 S14: Of. 01:17:37,901 S12: Development that would be necessary Free to change the tax rate in a significant and very significant manner, but I would. My thinking was tempered by my colleagues who were like, it's not an all or nothing. Um, we get into this room and we, um, we have fierce conversations about, um, whether or not we're paying too much at a quarter million dollars for for radios, for public safety. Well, for buildings, according to Cambridge Econometrics of mixed use developments could provide those radios for 200,000 250,000 in net revenue. So it's to me, it's not a question of is it going to solve us or not? But that's also not why I bring it up. I also bring it up because in the greater context of the master plan, which again involved however many hundreds of touchpoints with the community, there was an overriding sense of many things, but one of which was the condition of the community and the opportunities for engagement. And, um, you know, again, we are a single family house, developed community and as zoned. The question is, do we want to have other types of developments which are, um, more net fiscally positive for the town but also offer a more complex and enjoyable experience for its residents? And so I think we want to consider that as well. Leave aside the three a on the property on Main Street, the horse farm. Would we ever want a mixed use development there? Would we want shops along the street? I'm not saying we do or we don't. I'm just saying this is the conversation in the evolution of this town as we look forward, which isn't just about the experience of residents, but also about fiscal stabilization. 01:19:30,567 S13: The. 01:19:31,267 S12: Yeah, I mean, that horse farm is a really a sensitive topic, especially because. 01:19:34,767 S10: It's continuous. 01:19:35,868 S12: With the historic Civil War training ground. And, you know, there have been many cases like Pennsylvania around Gettysburg and things like that, where there's been opposition to that kind of development next to an historic site. So I know we're between a rock and a hard place. It's kind of, you know, I kind of get that, but, well, here's the one thing I would suggest for everyone to consider. Like, think about if you're sitting on a parcel of land, it's own commercial, when 99% of the town is not in one. That's a pretty significant thing to have on your hands. So as a town and for all of us seeing this road sign, okay. Do we want to wait to see what that person decides, that owner decides to do with a private developer for which we have no control? Or do we want to give a strong indication and suggestion? This is what the town consensus would like for a new use of this parcel. I wish this town would stay in its current form forever. I moved out here. I thought I'd found a Norman Rockwell painting come to light. There is graffiti in this town. There is there, you see respectful children that that say hello to you. We're doing something right here. I wish you would never change. But I also hear everyone say consistently, the taxes are too high. Right? But the taxes did just come down, right? The current assessments went up. Well, that's the way it works though. I mean, that's why we can't. Why we? I don't live in Manchester, for instance, but it's a trade off. I mean, I used to live in Greenwich, Connecticut, very low taxes. I couldn't afford to buy a house. But it's a very nice community. 01:21:18,267 S10: I really want to encourage everybody to look at the master plan one more time. I think that really way. 01:21:22,467 S12: Thank you. 01:21:22,667 S10: Very much. Thank you. Thank you. Tom, I really want to encourage everybody to look at the master plan. Again. Those are your hopes and dreams for Wyndham. And it may be in conflict with three A but it really is what I think we believe. Through our subcommittee, the impact where Wenham wants to go through all the hundreds of touchpoints, that's really what the planning board was focused on. That's why I became involved with the planning board two years ago, was to work on that master plan to get the future together. So then we're united and talking about things like this. Thank you. Please read it. 01:21:52,767 S4: I know you guys would think I know I'm not this guy yet, but. 01:21:56,167 S7: Oh, we love you. 01:21:56,868 S4: I still didn't get my question answered. 01:21:59,267 S7: Which. 01:21:59,567 S4: Is here it is. Up, down. 01:22:03,000 S14: Well. 01:22:04,000 S4: Here's what the situation is. I've asked a simple question what is the upside of us doing this to these residents here that currently live here? Wait like this. Don't do that. You, you you're telling me that there could be punitive measures and you don't know if it's going to be to the school, and you don't know if it's going to be for this and that. And the other thing, because it's there's something else out there. It's at this point you don't know any of those things affect anything. So as we're standing here right now, the only thing that you can say is we want to be in compliance. Okay. Because we want to avoid punitive measures. Okay. Great. Other than that, please tell me what was the upside. Because if you're saying excuse me and we won't bring that into the town unless Raytheon will take the first floor of the duplex, will bring that castle wobbling. It's not going to change the tax base either way. That's why you may be hiring, but you're not after me. That's what I really want. 01:23:05,100 S7: Do you? Do you want the answer? What the upside is. 01:23:07,367 S4: So tell me what the upside. 01:23:08,901 S7: The upside is. If we move this forward, the town gets to vote on it. 01:23:12,801 S4: That's not an upside. 01:23:14,067 S7: That is an upside. No, it's a democracy. No no no upside. 01:23:18,267 S4: That's a that's a that's evading the question. I understand it's up for a vote, but people need to understand what upside is. 01:23:24,467 S7: We need housing. And there's a parking lot sitting there empty. 01:23:28,300 S4: We don't need housing. The state needs housing and the federal government wants. 01:23:33,000 S7: Right. We mean the collective we, not you and me. 01:23:36,000 S4: Collective. We move to this bedroom community because it is like Norman Rockwell's community. That's what we came here for. 01:23:43,567 S7: I agree with you. 01:23:44,467 S4: So what is the. Tell me what the upside is that we're voting on. 01:23:47,901 S7: I've told you what I believe the upside is. 01:23:50,267 S4: Told me that we're going to vote. 01:23:51,267 S7: I don't think you agree with me about the upside, but that doesn't mean that's not an upside. 01:23:56,267 S4: Do you understand what I'm saying? What is the upside? When someone says this is candy and you eat it, it's not a lot to go. Okay, well, the candy stood out. Tell me what the upside is here. If they do this thing, how do these people benefit from it? Their taxes are going to go down. Is their right to work going to be any better? Is they're not being able to turn on the sprinklers anymore. Um, are they going to. 01:24:22,167 S7: They're not going to have their tax money go to a frivolous lawsuit or have to fight a state lawsuit that we don't need to fight. 01:24:30,100 S4: But you're going to end up fighting it later because it's going to happen without. Excuse me. 01:24:34,467 S14: That's the point. I don't understand that. Why? Why do we automatically think that we're going to end up in litigation? 01:24:41,467 S4: You're the one to. 01:24:42,167 S12: Assuming that you're. 01:24:42,868 S4: Going to. No no. 01:24:43,767 S7: No no. Only if we don't comply. 01:24:45,100 S4: We want to go into compliance with this. Tell me why you want to be in compliance with this? 01:24:49,667 S7: Yes. Why not? 01:24:50,501 S4: You're going to get. 01:24:51,300 S7: Why not put this to the town for a vote? Why shouldn't the whole town get to vote on this? 01:24:56,167 S4: But if the town votes, tell them what the consequence of their vote is. What is it? Tell me. I don't understand. 01:25:03,200 S7: The consequence of the vote is zoning overlay district on four acres in downtown, and a zoning overlay district on 12 acres out by the highway. 01:25:13,801 S4: And if they do that, what's the potential? What's going to happen next? 01:25:16,901 S14: Let me try to answer nothing. Let me try to answer your question of of of potential. 01:25:21,100 S4: I mean that my house is one of my life. 01:25:22,667 S7: If we're trying to answer your question. 01:25:24,667 S4: And I see this hurting my value of my home. 01:25:27,701 S14: Okay, give me a minute. So part of the master plan, um, is introducing mixed uses is. David said, trying to introduce more housing in the downtown area. It's not. 01:25:41,067 S4: Why? 01:25:41,667 S14: It's because that's part of the town's master plan. It's the vision for the plan for the next ten years, because that's something the town has decided that it wants. 01:25:52,000 S4: To do. 01:25:52,868 S14: So. Oh, so I'm not saying it's 100% overlap, but you're you're asking me what's potentially the upside here, potentially the upside of that 6.3 acre parcel. And frankly, I prefer it to be 4.8 if we could do it. But we couldn't do it under the guidelines. So it's 6.3, but it's in a uniquely situated area where it's it's a very good area actually for this type of housing. 01:26:19,501 S4: And if it could be mixed use, even better, it would be nice to have more restaurants and shops in that area. It's centrally located. You can walk to the train. I think your question is a little different though, which is what's the upside of us going through this process? Well, well, for one thing, process matters, okay. And the default position right now is this is the law of the Commonwealth. We have a basketball process. I'm actually asking about this. 01:26:44,567 S7: And. 01:26:44,868 S1: I'm. 01:26:45,167 S7: Answering. 01:26:45,567 S4: Your questions. We listen to your question. Please let me answer. So part of the upside is the process itself I know a lot of people think that's abstract and it doesn't matter, but it does matter. And that's why we have boards. That's why we're going through this whole exercise. Okay. Another part of this upside is we as a town get to vote and you get to exercise your democratic rights. Okay. If you don't like this, vote against a town meeting. Okay. That's another upside of this, another upside of this. And I know you've tried to diminish this. Um, there are consequences if we don't comply. Okay. I'm not opining about what the attorney General's authority is, but she has made it very clear, as the chief law enforcement officer of the Commonwealth, that she's going to enforce this statute, whether she has the authority or not. That's she's sick. Hold on. Hold on. 01:27:40,000 S7: Well, I think, Dan. 01:27:41,767 S4: What. 01:27:42,267 S7: Gave you some carrots? 01:27:43,367 S1: I don't think you would agree. 01:27:44,601 S7: With the carrots he's giving, but that's a different matter. 01:27:47,567 S4: So the fact that if you get sued for being out of compliance, then there would be litigation costs. Right. That's a downside. Avoiding that, avoiding a downside as an upside. Now I'm not telling you how to vote on this. I'm not you know, saying you should you should approve this. All we're saying is we've done the best job that we could to come up with a model that would comply. The decision is going to be the town's. It's not our decision. 01:28:15,767 S12: I understand that what I'm asking is to make sure that. 01:28:18,868 S4: The people. 01:28:19,868 S10: Understand. 01:28:20,567 S12: The consequences of it. Not just what happens if we don't do it. And the Attorney General's office and the governor's office gets mad at. 01:28:29,868 S4: Us. 01:28:30,601 S12: And we have to go through some litigation. It'd be less litigation now than to litigate this after after you've already done that. 01:28:37,868 S7: I think that's highly speculative, and I don't think we really know the answer. I don't think we really know the answer to that. I think we have made a choice that we're going to go through the process. And I appreciate your comments that you don't you don't happen to agree with that decision. I totally appreciate that. Just ask me if I I'm taking it under advisement from listening to you, that what we need is a fully fledged presentation for the town meeting with. This is what it could look like. This is what could happen. And we will do that. 01:29:08,400 S4: Okay. 01:29:15,667 S1: So I'm not going to beat you up. 01:29:18,667 S7: No, no. That's okay. I have a thick skin. Please tell us your name and your address. Courtney Ashwood, 49 Porter Street. Um, I hear all this talk about mixed development and, uh, net revenue. And so I've been talking to Hamilton Fincham, Hamilton board two. And it tends to go round and round. I was given information that the 18 units on Willow Street generated around $60,000 in property taxes. That's really low. I mean, if there's even ten kids in that building, it's 20 K to educate a kid in the Hamilton school kids. Can I ask a clarification? Just because I don't know the answer to this, and I'd like to, um, was that just for the residential piece or also for the commercial piece? Because that's a commercial piece on the first floor that I don't think has opened yet. Okay. I don't know the answer to that. Thank you. Sure. So, um, when I talk to fin com, they say, well, we, you know, we're looking at the cost to build a new school, not. the budget to educate all the influx of students who come into the town. That's the responsibility of the school committee. And then when you go to the school committee, they haven't run any of those numbers. They're an independent government. It's, you know, really trying to see how this would financially play out. It would be so helpful if these committees and boards talked and figured out, what's the break point for how many kids come? We're going to build a school for 740 students and need to build on, at this rate, that all these developments we're talking about. So I just wanted to point that out. 01:30:55,868 S12: The only thing I would say about that point is just to make sure we're all thinking the same way. If there are 18 housing units, that is net generating revenue, that means it is categorically different than a subdivision, which is according to the Cambridge Econometrics, would be a net cost on the town. So a mixed use development, that is, that is 18 housing units that is generating net fiscal contribution to the town is a better thing than so Cambridge Econometrics, take a look at the report would tell you that a single family home has a net cost on the town. And so that would say actually that that development is paying for itself. It's on the Cambridge econometrics. But there we refer to them as the expert. So just to understand, we look at it like, oh, 16,000 bucks. What's that? 01:31:54,400 S4: 60I think. 01:31:55,567 S12: 60,000. What's that? That means it's paying for itself with a net kicker into the coffer with 18 housing units. So that is kind of a good fit. 01:32:05,801 S7: Yeah, but I'm paying for the education of the kids, the teachers pensions, the teachers contracts, fire, police, water, sewer. All of it. So all of it matters to the residents. 01:32:17,467 S12: They are to. 01:32:19,000 S7: I get it, but $60,000 for the amount of people that might actually be in the building. 01:32:25,501 S15: Well, if you had if you had. 01:32:27,367 S12: For me in my house, my single family home, I cost the town according to this 16,000. We all do. Everybody in. 01:32:34,200 S4: This. 01:32:34,400 S7: Room, I understand that. I just don't agree that we can develop our way out of this. People pay a higher tax for a quality of life to, you know, going in. What are you forgetting? 01:32:46,000 S12: That's a fair point. I hear that point. 01:32:49,200 S16: I want that. 01:32:53,167 S16: That could go back. How much is that? Could be section that I'm going to be a thing. 01:32:59,601 S15: We don't the zoning doesn't have anything to do with section eight. 01:33:04,367 S16: That. What if it started building? All must have after this section. 01:33:09,968 S15: None of it would have to be section eight. 01:33:11,801 S12: By section eight. Are you seeing affordable housing? So the cap is 10%. Now, we should be very proud in this community because we are over 10%, which not only means that, um, we're contributing to the greater good of having affordable housing, but there's also not the right to have section 40 be buy right development in this town. And compare that with our neighbors in Hamilton, which are at 5 or 6%, which leaves parcels that open up open to buy right development by 40 B developers. So we will we would absolutely want to have 10% of the development be affordable housing for a variety of reasons. Um, but one of which would be to make sure that we stay over that 10%, because that's something that our community should be very proud. 01:34:01,167 S15: And we avoid for to be that way. 01:34:03,167 S4: Right. 01:34:04,267 S16: So the difference between what 40ft is instead of saying is it's a very big yes. 01:34:09,567 S7: A section eight is is a federal subsidy for the people who live there. Not the units that's built. 01:34:17,167 S10: You can make by by North Shore standards in Essex County, you can make about $75,000 a year, have one child and qualify for affordable housing. So the limits here are very high to get in there. So we're not down at the section eight level. We talked about affordable housing. 01:34:31,601 S16: Suggested did that does affect the passage out of section eight junior floor. I'll essentially start. 01:34:38,100 S7: That. 01:34:38,367 S17: Those are two different things though, so I wouldn't mix them up. We have someone at the microphone. 01:34:43,267 S4: Let me just clarify one thing. The term cap. 01:34:45,868 S7: At. 01:34:46,100 S4: 10% 10% is what we are allowed to require. 01:34:50,467 S7: Under the zoning. 01:34:51,167 S4: Under. 01:34:51,501 S7: This. 01:34:52,167 S4: Area. Okay. Which we would want to do. All right. 01:34:57,267 S7: Hi, I'm Elise and I'm at 114 Larch Row. And my question is I'm looking at this flyer and it says if it were to pass the minimum we have to comply is 365 units, 24 acres. It says minimum. So what's going to prevent a developer from coming in? Let's say I live in this half mile radius, and I can then turn around and sell my unit to a developer who will then come to you asking for a variance to also do. No, no, no, let me understand. Let me explain. The the zoning overlay goes over a certain amount of land, and the density that's allowable within that district would permit a certain number of units. The total number of units. The minimum amount is this 365 spread minimum two. 01:35:57,167 S18: So but we're not going to zone above the minimum amount. We're zoning at the very minimum we can do and still be. 01:36:04,367 S7: But there's nothing in here that caps it so that a developer can't. 01:36:08,367 S18: Know that the zoning if the zoning. 01:36:10,300 S7: Overlay. 01:36:10,868 S18: Would cap it. 01:36:12,667 S4: Minimum. Sorry, the minimum numbers. Those are the minimum thresholds that we have to meet in order to satisfy the state requirements. So we have 1460 total dwelling units in Wenham. And we have to zone for 25% of that, which is 365. That's that's state clarify. 01:36:33,567 S7: But I'm saying that if it passed, say I live in you know, I live near the train station, I don't live near a train station, but I live near a train station. And I don't really not really happy with what's going on. Well, I'm going to try to make what I can. I'm going to get out of here. And I. 01:36:48,501 S18: Don't own a parcel that's got the overlay on it. 01:36:51,300 S7: But I can apply for a variance. So when you set precedents, when we set precedents. 01:36:57,367 S4: When we proposed these two districts okay. So in this, the 6.3 acres, right. That will be zoned for a total of 73 units. Okay. That's the maximum that can go in there if it gets approved. So a developer can come in and say, I want to put 146 because it's not zoned for that. And then. 01:37:16,567 S19: You explain all. 01:37:18,100 S4: That. Does that answer your question? 01:37:19,968 S7: No, I'm just saying like there's most of everything a single family homes. What's to stop a developer to say I want it to be a multifamily. I want to put an ad in the zoning doesn't permit it, except on those parcels with the overlay. Do can someone ask for a variance? They can't. But we wouldn't. And they do set a precedent. You wouldn't say you. They can't ask for a variance from the zoning. They can ask for a variance within the zoning. So in other words, if the parcel next to it is zoned for one unit per acre, they can't ask for 15 units per acre there. Do you see what I'm saying? It's only on the parcels that we're putting the overlay on where that density would be permitted. No, I know, I know. I know it's it's I've seen developers, you know. When they have deep pockets and they welcome, they'd like to cut off the suggestion that anyone on this committee is subject to that kind of know. I mean, I'm just saying that developers find a way to push the push the limit, and. 01:38:26,467 S7: You could say this is stationary, but I want it's the parcel cake. 01:38:32,100 S7: The parcel. The yellow one. 01:38:33,567 S16: Oh that's fine. 01:38:34,767 S7: No, no. The parcels. 01:38:37,100 S16: And then. 01:38:39,000 S7: The two. 01:38:39,567 S16: Joe Virden. 01:38:41,767 S19: That's not it. That's it. 01:38:43,767 S7: So it's. Those are the parcels that would be included there, right near the train station. No one's living on them now. 01:38:53,367 S16: Well. 01:38:54,100 S19: Okay. Well. 01:38:55,767 S7: We'll see when I believe it. Thanks. Please come to town meeting. 01:39:01,367 S16: Then one. 01:39:02,400 S4: More question. I'm sorry. That's okay. 01:39:04,567 S7: No apologies. Is there? Um. 01:39:07,300 S10: I think. 01:39:07,868 S4: Earlier, hours ago. 01:39:09,367 S10: There was a reference to the amount. 01:39:10,467 S4: Of parking. 01:39:11,267 S10: Like two. I think it was two spaces per unit. Is there. 01:39:14,400 S4: Other things. 01:39:14,868 S10: That you guys could do to make it to discourage development? Uh, could it be for parking spaces per unit or whatever it might be? 01:39:23,601 S7: I mean, we have control over a lot of the design elements. Yes, we can do things that we make it, at the very least, a very high end looking development. 01:39:34,901 S10: And is is two parking spaces. 01:39:38,167 S4: In that, you know. 01:39:39,200 S7: Well, we don't have a we haven't voted on an overlay district yet. We don't have any of the details. We have a draft that we're talking about. But so that don't get hung up on the details of it at this point. That's part of the process we have to go through over the summer is trying to figure out what it should look like and how much setback, and how do we buffer it from those? Should there be, you know, 50ft of vegetation between whatever this is and the thing that's next to it? You know, that kind of conversation is still to be had. So we could do two units, we could do five units, we could add five spaces. I mean, we could do one space. That might be even more discouraging because it's supposed to be for transit. So if you're taking the train, do you need to is we have to have those conversations. We haven't had them yet. 01:40:28,100 S10: Okay. Thank you. You'll have to be traffic studies analysis to by the potential developer to see if that traffic can handle it. If the trees can handle it, there's a lot to go into it, not an infrastructure. So there's a long road for. 01:40:39,367 S7: It to zoning. Yeah. It's level right. Yeah. Yes. 01:40:42,100 S4: Yeah. 01:40:42,367 S12: Alex Schmidt. 01:40:42,901 S10: I. 01:40:43,067 S12: Live on Main Street in one. 01:40:44,400 S4: I'm just kind of following. 01:40:45,367 S12: Up on, on this gentleman's conversation or his topic. I think you mentioned. 01:40:49,567 S4: Earlier that. 01:40:50,601 S12: You had gone back to the state and. 01:40:52,701 S4: Said it was 111 acres, and because of that, we now have to have 25% of. 01:40:59,300 S16: Our. 01:40:59,701 S4: Current population or number of housing. 01:41:01,701 S7: Units. Yeah, we're not an adjacent small community. Basically, you know the definition wondering. 01:41:07,300 S4: It seems to me like it's a pretty simple no from the state. Given all that they have to deal with. And I don't understand the process of what they said. I think at the previous meeting regarding this, it was if we lost ten acres, the number of units would go from three whatever down to 100. Is there a way to explore that a little bit more? 01:41:30,400 S7: Someone would have to step up and buy ten acres. 01:41:33,067 S4: Well, but but I mean, maybe. Is that a community thing? We make it a community part and everybody buy, you know, whatever. Take donations and limit that. Just a solution. And then. 01:41:45,467 S7: You're. 01:41:45,767 S4: You're talking about it. 01:41:46,567 S7: But if you have a great idea, run with it. It's not within our authority to do that. 01:41:51,267 S4: Okay. Well, I'm just kind of trying to figure it out. I also wonder that we have looked into that issue. Um, and part of the problem is, even if more than 11 acres were sold, there's no guarantee that the state would say, oh, now you're under 100 acres because they, they they could say, no, we made our determination at X date. Yeah. And that was going to be my next part is I get what you guys are doing. And frankly I know we don't. Generally people here are opposed to what the state is asking. We have to go to it because it will come to us at some point. In your proposals, what you're going to give to the town, have you considered saying, going back to the state with something that's not 100% of compliance, i.e., look, we disagree on the 100 acres and therefore the number should be X and as a as an option. Is there is there a way to kind of fight City Hall here or now? I mean on that front it would it would just be look, we don't like your definition. We think we should really be adjacent small community. And even though we're 111 acres, we really shouldn't be, right? I mean, I think I know what the state's response to that one is going to be, just trying to find options to to say, look, guys, we want to comply to what we would like. 01:43:12,200 S16: And. 01:43:12,801 S4: We don't agree with what you're going to mandate. Is there some middle ground? And I don't know that the process has worked its way through, i.e. Milton hasn't solved it or Rockport hasn't solved it, but maybe with time, the governor or the the AG would say, all right, look, they made a valiant effort. Let's give it 12. I'm just trying to throw out ideas here. Yeah, I think we are going to get a lot of. It's not. Yeah. 01:43:39,067 S16: Test books. 01:43:40,901 S4: Oh hold. 01:43:41,267 S7: On. Yes. 01:43:42,067 S20: We know we are gonna get a lot of count. We are going to get a lot of answers from. 01:43:45,868 S4: The litigation as the litigation plays out. But we have explored all kinds of things. For example, we share this station. Part of the station is in one of its in both one and Hamilton. But we share I think we're the we're probably the only communities that share an MBTA station under this act. And if you look at our area right, we don't get a full circle. We get yeah, we get maybe half a circle. Yeah. Um, so we're in an exact circumstance and we've looked into that as well. And we that's one is that this is a, this is a state one one solution for everybody. Yeah. Correct. You know and and that's not you know, we shouldn't fall into that category. We see, you know if there's a way to fight or modify it to our benefit. No we want it. Well just. 01:44:40,267 S7: That's we've had this. 01:44:41,467 S4: Flaw just trying to come up with. 01:44:43,000 S7: Yeah. I think that's a lawsuit. And I don't think that's what we want to do right now. I think we would prefer to put something out to the town and see what the town does with it and then go from there. Thank you. Quick clarifying question. I think, Dan, it was you mentioned we need to have 4.8 because of the parcel size at six three. 01:45:04,868 S4: Yes. 01:45:06,567 S7: Could we not subdivide a lot? 01:45:08,567 S4: No. 01:45:09,868 S7: That's part of what's required. 01:45:11,567 S4: That's part of the state guidelines as to how we can go about this process, which is something that's being challenged in one of these litigations. So there were these guidelines that came out right, Margaret, as to how we go about this and how we can determine. And one of the things they said is you can't split your lots. So we needed to use the two lots to get over 4.8. Yeah. But the combination gets us to 6.3. 01:45:38,868 S7: And that again is as of the day that legislation was enacted. That's where they're locking in lot sizes. I mean, we can split lots. 01:45:48,200 S4: I don't know when the guidelines came out. I'd like to be able to split lots, frankly, because we we could do it at Boulder Land as well because we have, I think, more acreage than we needed at Boulder land, but just because of wetlands and other things we have to use. I think all of the lots, um, the guidelines, my understanding is the guidelines came out from an agency after the legislation. So the legislation was enacted back in 2021. And then in this process, I'm not even going to try to guess which agency because they keep changing their acronyms. But somebody came out with these guidelines as to what this process was and what we could do for picking parcels and coming up with districts that would be compliant. And we worked with a consultant who guided us through that process. 01:46:31,467 S7: Got it. It's complicated, you know. I agree, and I actually like the suggestion that was just made at some point when towns are coming back or you guys are doing your job, which is a tough job. Towns are voting no. They will need, I think, to be more flexible to get moving in the right direction. And so I think it would be great to have in our back pocket some scenarios. And understand what the litigation consequences would be. So we could say okay, we need to do something what our alternatives something might look like and a principled reason. So something like the hey, we're just barely over that 100 and we share a station and we have a half circle, you know, like arm. All of that case to say here, if we find that litigation and all those things are untenable to. 01:47:23,467 S19: A. 01:47:24,000 S7: Staying. No, no, no. Coming up with some creative ideas and creative thinking for what we would say. All right. This would be what we could put forth and something that would be much more in line with, I mean, town interest, really. It's the same thing with the different density. Yeah. I mean, it's not a hard thing to have alternatives. We could do that, but it wouldn't, it wouldn't be the. The alternative wouldn't be no Zealand. The alternative would be a zone with lower density. I agree, I just at this point it feels like moving quickly. A yes vote quickly doesn't necessarily serve us unless we understand. Right? I hear you. I hear what you're saying. For us, this doesn't seem quick because we've been talking about this. We've had these same conversations with each other for the last year and a half or so in their their December 31st compliance timeline. Right, I understand it. They're going to need towns to if they really are wanting to do this, they're going to need to do something. I really like your idea of okay, so this is what it looks like if we fully comply. And if we were an adjacent small community, this is what it would look like, something that they're going to need some wins on the board for towns that are voting no to take back to the other towns. So if we can be their prize to give them something that might be that might be all our alternative if it gets forced out. I appreciate that thoughts. 01:48:46,100 S16: We got. 01:48:48,901 S16: That. 01:48:52,901 S7: Hi, Andrea. I'm sorry I didn't hear your name. 01:48:56,167 S4: Andrea van Boven, Middlewood drive. 01:48:59,167 S21: Um. Thank you. You've worked really hard, and I really appreciate everything that you've done and are doing. Um, I think to your point, we really have to be engaged in the process. We have to get more people engaged in what you're doing. And so for us to do word of mouth, how can we. I mean, what are you doing to keep things online? What are you doing so that we can cause that everybody's schedules fit? What's the best way for us to engage more people? 01:49:30,100 S19: Do you want to take to Swindon? 01:49:31,567 S7: I mean, we have a space on on the planning board site where all this information will be posted. It's online. It's on the town website. We meet every Thursday, every second Thursday of every month at 7 p.m.. I can tell you this is going to be on our agenda. Um, it's going to be about the details, though, not about, you know, yes or no. I have to say that, um, although I'm hearing everyone here. Um, and then Margaret can talk to you a little bit more about accessing town resources and staff. 01:50:02,868 S21: And if those things could be put up, we can all go to the planning board or go to one place and then test it. 01:50:12,000 S2: Well, you can go to the town's website. And, uh, on the front page we have an MBTA communities link. Um, we've also sent it to all of our social media outlets. Um, I think we do Twitter. Facebook. Okay. Kate's been handling most of that. Um, yeah. Instagram. We put it on the sign in front of the fire station. You know, we do as much outreach as we can. Um, we don't. We haven't spent the funds on a direct mail with half of this in the past. We've done that and we found that wasn't for me. Yeah. 01:50:48,000 S21: Yeah. 01:50:48,567 S2: Well, for town meeting, there'll be. 01:50:50,267 S21: Like, town meetings kind of late because process is really important. I've been there a lot of process stuff and walked people through things. And there's still people that are outraged and surprised. Right. 01:51:01,567 S7: And we can only do what we can do. And we encourage people in the room, if you feel strongly about this, to organize with your neighbors. I mean, that's part of the democratic process. 01:51:10,601 S21: Yeah. And I appreciate that. And I encourage that. I also want to say for the question about the school committee, um, that is the two town thing, and they're making a vote on what kind of school they want us to have tomorrow night, right in town, meeting in that room. Right. So I encourage anybody, anybody who's still hanging in on the on camera, right. Wherever to attend. 01:51:32,367 S7: Well, that's the other point about the planning board meetings is they're also, um, we do them in person since all the restrictions are lifted, but we also have them on zoom so you can participate remotely as well. Okay. And the link is in the agenda which is posted on the town's calendar. 01:51:46,567 S21: Okay, I appreciate that and keeps up to date that. 01:51:52,868 S7: She. 01:51:58,901 S7: Is definitely one question. Yes. 01:52:01,467 S21: With the map. 01:52:05,067 S7: This is a. 01:52:06,000 S22: Half a mile radius. 01:52:07,701 S7: Correct. Okay. 01:52:09,501 S22: It's cut in half. Hamilton is one half. Wenham is the other half. Correct. It's one train station. Correct. Why isn't it considered Hamilton and Wenham having to do this much and not each town do 100% that has anybody address that? 01:52:29,100 S4: So Hamilton has to meet the same obligations we do. Their numbers are much higher. I think that they but they have. 01:52:35,367 S22: This. 01:52:36,267 S16: Well. 01:52:37,000 S4: I understand. 01:52:37,868 S21: Right. 01:52:38,167 S7: So add it together with this. 01:52:39,667 S4: They're half of the circle. They have to. I don't know. I have their numbers. I don't know precisely what their numbers are. I think that their total units are 735 or something approximately, which means, um, a smaller number of those have to be within the circle. Um, but they have to put more. I'm sorry. They have to put more than 4.8 acres within their half of the circle. 01:53:05,767 S22: So it's not split 5050 for Hamilton. Wenham? 01:53:09,267 S4: No, because. 01:53:09,767 S21: Hamilton. 01:53:10,367 S22: Has. 01:53:11,067 S4: Hamilton has more. Hamilton has a higher housing inventory stock than we do. So we have 1460 units. Hamilton has more than that. We have to zone for 365 units. They have to zone for 700 plus units. 01:53:26,501 S22: So all within a half. 01:53:28,701 S4: No, no not all within. 01:53:30,167 S7: No. That can put some of them as we have out further like we've put most of ours out on Boulder Lane. Not exactly a thing. One train station should have okay within this happen half. And you would think so. But that's not how the act works on that. Please. Yeah, we did, we did, we did. It's not fair to small towns having double I only in one. Yeah. But we we we agree with you on double check it. We can quadruple check it. We've already combed this in the last year and a half. 01:54:07,501 S16: It would help. 01:54:09,267 S7: We have had a conversation with Hamilton. Yes. And what we've learned is that they are doing this, um, different kind of zoning exercise that governs their whole downtown, and they're sort of incorporating this with that. 01:54:22,167 S16: So it's just you I could call you Fear Vegas. Yeah. It's it's an imaginary Davenport. 01:54:28,167 S7: Right, I understand that. Believe me, I do. I think a lot of the while, I'm not going to say it, a lot of the tax burden might be alleviated if we weren't two towns, but we are. And that's the way it is. 01:54:39,501 S16: We'll be so close to this. We get out. 01:54:42,901 S7: There, it's different because they're using a different process. So I can't really answer that. But they're going to have to comply by December 31st, just like we are. Yes. 01:54:52,267 S16: Yes. Peter and Jessica, seven Perkins Street. I have a question on affordable housing and a few other questions. You said is 12.7 correct? 01:55:02,100 S4: I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. 01:55:04,167 S16: Affordable housing. Right now we have 12.7 to 10% cap. Correct? 01:55:09,667 S4: Yes. We're over our threshold. 01:55:11,100 S16: Okay. You said that's not going to increase if you put a thousand people in. 01:55:15,300 S4: So the MBTA community's housing Act is not. I know it's been billed this way in the media and the. And the administration has tried this. Yeah. I mean, I know the governor's office has, at various points, It's portrayed it as an affordable housing, but it's not an affordable housing act. It's just a housing Act. We are allowed to impose a requirement of 10% into. 01:55:41,868 S21: These. 01:55:42,100 S4: Zoning districts. But we can't go. We can't go higher than that. 01:55:46,067 S16: Correct. But if we put a thousand people, is it fair to say 365 units will be a thousand people a month? Is that fair to say? 01:55:58,567 S7: Not necessarily. No. 01:56:01,267 S16: We don't know that that's okay. It's a. 01:56:04,501 S7: Yes. 01:56:04,767 S16: That was true. 01:56:05,968 S7: If there were three people per unit in every unit. But that might be. 01:56:10,767 S4: It just would have been assuming that they're all built. 01:56:13,701 S16: Exactly. 01:56:14,467 S4: Right. 01:56:14,767 S7: So so that's like the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is. 01:56:19,267 S21: Do we have any. 01:56:20,100 S16: Idea when these are built who's going to be moving in. 01:56:24,267 S7: We don't have any idea about whether these will be built I mean. 01:56:30,100 S16: Okay. Put senior citizens in there. Yeah. Will you put veterans in there? We can't accept people. 01:56:34,868 S7: We are not permitted as. As you heard to to qualify other than allowing for 10% affordable. Who lives in the units? We can't put an age restriction on it. We can't put any kind of restrictions. 01:56:47,701 S16: I guess the point I'm trying to get at. Okay. 01:56:53,100 S16: Here is the Gordon Conwell. 01:56:58,067 S16: Ministry in Hamilton, which we pay to school bills in Windham, usually was about 3035 children every year. The people from overseas, Africa, Asia and everywhere would come in. And this indicates a school. And I think 7 or 8 on average always had special needs. Buying state doesn't give us a penny. Gordon Caldwell never gave us a penny. All right. Those were one individual who came over here with his wife and I believe a girl and two boys, all three with special needs. They're only here for two years. Okay. One year. For two years, of course. Cost just $100,000. 01:57:40,567 S7: I don't think we. This has anything to do with our zoning exercise. I know it's. 01:57:45,667 S16: Weird. 01:57:46,000 S7: To, but we can't control that. 01:57:48,267 S16: The point I'm trying to get who is going to be living there? 01:57:51,100 S7: We don't know. 01:57:52,467 S16: Okay. That's all we need. 01:57:54,467 S7: Thank you. That's that's the answer. I mean, we don't know whether units ever will be built. 01:57:59,467 S4: Okay. 01:58:00,501 S16: It's a pig and a poke. We don't know. 01:58:02,801 S4: So those are. I think those are school committee questions. They're not. Definitely they're not planning and planning board. Excuse me. 01:58:09,367 S16: We pay the taxes. 01:58:11,100 S7: We understand. But these are issues that we can't. 01:58:14,400 S4: We're not going to. 01:58:15,000 S7: You can't fix this for you. 01:58:16,367 S16: Or I just want to know if this is a list or going to be a list, but who's going to go now? Moving. 01:58:24,601 S7: No, this is just an exercise of allowing for development. It doesn't say anything about who will be where. It doesn't even say that there will be any development. It's just permitted by right. 01:58:36,667 S16: We don't. 01:58:37,300 S4: So can I just. Can I just say generally about that? Yeah. 01:58:45,100 S16: In this in that rather dystopia. 01:58:51,467 S7: I think I think we've all been here for two hours, and we really should try to keep the comments germane to what we have authority over, which is the overlay district and the character of the kind of development that would be permitted. 01:59:07,601 S4: So just with respect to what we have done as a board in this process, I've mentioned earlier that this is a compliance exercise. We we determined in this process that we have the ability to come up with a model that would comply with the law, and we can do it pretty easily. That whether the town wants to adopt it or not is up to the town. So. But we've identified a couple of areas where we can create these districts. It doesn't mean that there necessarily will be build out on them, but we can do this exercise that complies with the statute, and then that's as much as we can do. And then it's it's up to town meeting. 01:59:50,901 S16: To dictate their utility then set that state set out. But the population is done. 02:00:00,400 S4: I'm not I'm not even I'm not even addressing them. 02:00:02,868 S7: We're not even arguing that. 02:00:04,300 S4: I'm just saying we determined that for us to comply with the statute, we had to come up with overlay district. Could we do it? Yes. We have some area in town that would comply. And this is the model that we're presenting. It's not the end of the story as we've clearly heard tonight. There's going to be more debate about this. But all we can do is put the plan forward and then the town votes. 02:00:31,667 S7: Mr. chairman. 02:00:32,601 S16: I, Ben Timon, a member of the Select Board. 236 electro. I had to miss. 02:00:38,367 S4: A solid hour. 02:00:39,200 S16: In the middle. I apologize, I had a conflict, but I have heard some discussion. I just wanted to say, as it seems like we're probably wrapping up, that I want to commend the Planning board for the work that you've done, because you've gotten you've been much more proactive, I think, than many, um, other planning boards and Margaret Hoffman as well, for all the work she has done, because I think that certainly my feeling is that we need to be in a position to comply with this state law. It is a state law. It's being challenged at the Supreme Judicial Court, as I'm sure has come up. And that's going to be argued in the fall. And the Supreme Judicial Court may, you know, make some interesting rulings to try to reconcile this tension between home rule and zoning and, um, and the meta communities law. But if they uphold the law, we're in a position to be in compliance. And I think the planning board's to be commended for the work that you've done to get us into interim compliance and to be in a position to be in full compliance if we need to be. And I know this may be a controversial, um, sentiment in the room tonight, but I think that the proposal that you put forward is about as modest a change in zoning as any towns around here are going to see. Um, for, you know, Boulder Lane is a historically difficult site to develop. The town owns a portion of it, which gives the town some control over what might actually be built there, as opposed to how it's own. 02:02:04,200 S7: Great point. 02:02:05,000 S16: And I think with respect to the the other lot, I certainly don't think that, you know, another a mixed use development back there, like a doubling of the Hamilton Plaza with 75 units of housing, uh, is not going to spell the end of Wenham. Um, that's my feeling. I think, um, that you guys are on the right track. And I just wanted to commend you as one member of the board. 02:02:29,100 S7: Thank you. 02:02:29,767 S4: Thank you. 02:02:35,667 S7: Thank you, Mr. Peretti. 02:02:36,667 S23: And I'm a member of the Select Board also. And a couple of things I do think that the upside that you're asking about is in part, a matter of opinion. We have heard. I agree with what the planning board has said already. But in addition, through the master plan process that we've been mentioning multiple times tonight, we heard from a lot of Wenham residents that they would like more diversified housing stock and they would like more affordable housing stock, not necessarily statutorily affordable housing stock, but housing that people can afford at different stages of life. So that our young people are 20 somethings, don't have to leave the town that they grew up in because they cannot afford million billion homes so that our senior citizens can age in place because they also can't afford to maintain million dollar codes. Those are some of the things that we heard. Now, those people are also residents in Wenham. And that's why I echo what has been said tonight by the planning board that it is important to follow this process because we are a democracy, and all 5300 some odd people in Wenham have the right to have a say in this. And I appreciate the 35 or 40 people which made the effort and took the time to come down here tonight, because your comments are important. But we also cannot forget the other 5002 hundred and some odd people, that they also have a voice. And we have heard from people that housing diversification is important and it matters. The other things we heard in the master plan process, universally, no one argued that we should become Peabody or a town like that. Universally, everyone said, please don't lose the character of the town that is most important to us. Okay, I heard that from zero people throughout the entire process, but they did say repeatedly, the taxes are high. Too high. We can't afford to stay here necessarily. We need different types of housing so that we have potential to be able to stay here. Okay. You may not believe me that people have other opinions than what's represented here tonight, but we have heard other opinions, different opinions throughout the two year process. So I would just encourage everyone to try to keep an open mind. There are, I think, upsides. 02:05:01,767 S24: Okay. 02:05:07,000 S7: Thank you. If if there's no one else who wants to speak, I think I will ask for a motion to adjourn this special meeting of the Planning board. 02:05:15,167 S16: I'd like to make. 02:05:15,868 S21: A motion to adjourn. Our meeting tonight. 02:05:17,767 S16: At. 02:05:17,968 S21: 8:13 p.m. and. 02:05:19,767 S7: We will re us. We will re assemble on the 13th of June at 7 p.m. in Town Hall. Can I have a second for the motion? 02:05:33,167 S16: A second? 02:05:34,300 S7: All in favor? 02:05:36,200 S21: Okay. 02:05:36,767 S7: I thank you very much for your time and for your attention. 02:05:41,767 S21: Thank you.